On 06/01/16 22:07, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Really, no board meetings since March last year?

there was a board meeting face to face in OSC15, I think jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Op woensdag 6 januari 2016 22:33:54 schreef Basil Chupin:

On 06/01/16 22:07, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Judging by https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board_meeting, the board stopped meeting in March last year, and no minutes were posted from that last irc meeting. Apparently a face-to-face meeting took place on March 28 & 29, but I see no minutes nor a report from that either.

In May 2015, Bruno Friedmann then quietly announced:

"To be precise, the meeting on irc, is no more automatic. It's on demand when the need and the actors are there."

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-05/msg00470.html

Really, no board meetings since March last year?

There must have been a meeting in order to pass a motion to ban Carlos from all opensuse lists and minutes of this meeting kept recording the validity of this decision.

If there was no such meeting then Carlos' ban is invalid, the board members asked to explain their actions and Carlos' participation in all opensuse fora immediately re-instated.

BC

Could you please stop your anti-board campaign? -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht Official openSUSE Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/01/16 23:29, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

Op woensdag 6 januari 2016 22:33:54 schreef Basil Chupin:

...

On 06/01/16 22:07, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Judging by https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board_meeting, the board stopped meeting in March last year, and no minutes were posted from that last irc meeting. Apparently a face-to-face meeting took place on March 28 & 29, but I see no minutes nor a report from that either.

In May 2015, Bruno Friedmann then quietly announced:

"To be precise, the meeting on irc, is no more automatic. It's on demand when the need and the actors are there."

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-05/msg00470.html

Really, no board meetings since March last year? There must have been a meeting in order to pass a motion to ban Carlos from all opensuse lists and minutes of this meeting kept recording the validity of this decision.

If there was no such meeting then Carlos' ban is invalid, the board members asked to explain their actions and Carlos' participation in all opensuse fora immediately re-instated.

BC Could you please stop your anti-board campaign?

What ARE you talking about?! Asking legitimate questions about how this board works and how it arrives at its decisions and where people can get access to those decisions via the Minutes which the board is required to keep can hardly be called an "anti-board campaign". But you keep making such statements and I will make it a campaign. I really don't know how you can claim legitimacy to asking such questions when you have only posted 63 public messages in *all* of the opensuse mail lists but now you suddenly have become the "knight in shining armour". I am not in any way opposed to your gallant gesture of standing for a position to the board but cannot help question the reason for it seeing as how you mention in your post of 30 December that you were asked to stand and you then decided to do so. Meaning that you had no intention to do so -- until "pushed" (by someone). I have no hassles with this but still cannot help wondering how all this came about..... BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.3.3-6 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown wrote:

The Boards actions regarding moderation of the mailinglists were in direct response to direct requests to board@opensuse.org by various community members

In such cases it would be inappropriate to delay a response to such an issue for upto 2 weeks, so the Board doesn't wait for it's regular Board meeting and discusses and decides via email

Just FYI, apparently there are no regular meetings anymore, see Bruno's posting from May last year. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (6.6°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown wrote:

On 6 January 2016 at 14:19, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Richard Brown wrote:

...

The Boards actions regarding moderation of the mailinglists were in direct response to direct requests to board@opensuse.org by various community members

In such cases it would be inappropriate to delay a response to such an issue for upto 2 weeks, so the Board doesn't wait for it's regular Board meeting and discusses and decides via email

Just FYI, apparently there are no regular meetings anymore, see Bruno's posting from May last year.

Just FYI, as a person who's been going to those meetings, I think i know what I'm talking about - I'm writing a much longer reply to your original post to explain - you've got Project meetings and Board meetings confused :)

Ooops. I had no idea they were different. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (6.6°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, Am Mittwoch, 6. Januar 2016 schrieb Richard Brown:

Board meetings are typically where non-urgent 'day to day' type stuff is discussed (eg. openSUSE conference planning and preparation,

Good point - are there any news about the openSUSE Conference 2016? ;-) I only know that it will probably be in Nürnberg (that's what was said at oSC15), but I didn't hear much since then - except some rumors that it doesn't seem to be easy to find a good place in Nürnberg. Regards, Christian Boltz --

Wenn mir jemand im Klartext (deutsch oder schwäbisch) schreiben könnte Om's scsi_mod musch di et kimmra, des kå modprobe en dr /lib/modules/`uname -r`/modules.dep, die vom depmod gschriba wird, selbr rausfenda. [> Ute Ferlein und David Haller in suse-linux]

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/01/16 00:07, Richard Brown wrote:

...

On 06/01/16 22:07, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Judging by https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board_meeting, the board stopped meeting in March last year, and no minutes were posted from that last irc meeting. Apparently a face-to-face meeting took place on March 28 & 29, but I see no minutes nor a report from that either.

In May 2015, Bruno Friedmann then quietly announced:

"To be precise, the meeting on irc, is no more automatic. It's on demand when the need and the actors are there."

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-05/msg00470.html

Really, no board meetings since March last year? There must have been a meeting in order to pass a motion to ban Carlos from all opensuse lists and minutes of this meeting kept recording the validity of this decision.

If there was no such meeting then Carlos' ban is invalid, the board members asked to explain their actions and Carlos' participation in all opensuse fora immediately re-instated. The Boards actions regarding moderation of the mailinglists were in

On 6 January 2016 at 12:33, Basil Chupin wrote: direct response to direct requests to board@opensuse.org by various community members

In such cases it would be inappropriate to delay a response to such an issue for upto 2 weeks,

According to what, or whose, criterion?

so the Board doesn't wait for it's regular Board meeting and discusses and decides via email

Board meetings are typically where non-urgent 'day to day' type stuff is discussed (eg. openSUSE conference planning and preparation, TSP status, Release status) and where broader ongoing topics may be discussed (general direction of the Project, trends in community concerns mailed to board@opensuse.org, so on and so forth)

Or to put it another way

The Board discusses and reacts to all issues raised to board@opensuse.org as fast as it can, and does not wait until the next Board meeting to start discussing or acting on such emails.

Richard, you are making all this up as you go along, aren't you? The fact is that you are the current chair of a board which has no set of *rules* governing its behaviour or its responsibilities to the openSUSE users and the "Community" -- that is, apart from the vague, open-ended, motherhood statements mentioned in- https://en.opensuse.org/Board If what the board did was serious stuff and everybody on the board took their positions seriously, and did not publish such photos with tongues hanging out like some drunken person celebrating the New Year in Manchester or made comments about their CVs such as those shown in https://en.opensuse.org/Board, then you would know that normally there is always a provision in the duties and responsibilities of a board (one such responsibility is called "natural justice" -- don't know about? then look it up, and apply it to Carlos' case) which do permit actions to be approved and taken in "an emergency", which you claim appears to be so in Carlos' case, but which then MUST be raised and re-approved by the board at its next meeting and Minuted as the decision of the board with a full disclosure of who moved the motion and seconded it and voted for and against the motion/proposal. So what you state is simply ****, or crap for those who don't like naughty type words. Am I correct in stating that Carlos was banned in around the middle of November 2015? If so, you mean to tell me that the board has had no chance to meet for ANY reason, be it small or major, since at least that time? If not, why not? What DOES the board do -- apart from banning people at your request because you assumed that you were being insulted? You may find my questioning rather severe but rest assured that I am not attacking anyone personally but simply questioning how things work and what the culture of the board may be in the future. BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.3.3-6 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 01/06/2016 09:04 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

On 07/01/16 00:07, Richard Brown wrote: <snip>

If what the board did was serious stuff and everybody on the board took their positions seriously,

Against my better judgment I will respond to this one point and some comments that were ushered in other recent threads on other lists in general terms. Over the last few weeks there have been a large number of e-mails where members of the board, or the board collectively, have been called all kinds of unpleasant names and our intentions have been questioned. Let me say that this is not conducive to having a productive discussion. Those that are on the board stood for election because we care about the project, the community that supports the project, and the distributions we collectively "produce". Voting members determined that those that got elected in each voters opinion had the best interest of the project at heart and are fit for the openSUSE Board. Having the best interest of the project at heart does not prevent us from taking missteps. We are all human. Also consider that there are always two sides to a coin. We do try not to let our own personal emotions cloud our judgment when things are brought before the board for resolution and try to look at the facts from as many different angles as possible to reach conclusions. As with everything else not all facts may be known at the time a decision is made. The continued insinuation that members of the board or the board as a whole are out to get someone, that being on the board is not taken seriously, that there is a hidden agenda, or that we do not have the best interest of the project at heart, individually and as a group is not conducive to having a productive discussion that will help address any shortcomings that might exist or will help to move the project forward. Later, Robert -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo

Richard, On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 6:37 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

On 6 January 2016 at 12:33, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 06/01/16 22:07, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Judging by https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board_meeting, the board stopped meeting in March last year, and no minutes were posted from that last irc meeting. Apparently a face-to-face meeting took place on March 28 & 29, but I see no minutes nor a report from that either.

In May 2015, Bruno Friedmann then quietly announced:

"To be precise, the meeting on irc, is no more automatic. It's on demand when the need and the actors are there."

This is project meeting moderated by a board memeber and not the board meeting among the board afaik. Both of them are two different things. Correct me if I am wrong.

...

...

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-05/msg00470.html

Really, no board meetings since March last year?

There must have been a meeting in order to pass a motion to ban Carlos from all opensuse lists and minutes of this meeting kept recording the validity of this decision.

If there was no such meeting then Carlos' ban is invalid, the board members asked to explain their actions and Carlos' participation in all opensuse fora immediately re-instated.

The Boards actions regarding moderation of the mailinglists were in direct response to direct requests to board@opensuse.org by various community members

Why was not this announced? Typically, any moderation takes place by the list owner.

In such cases it would be inappropriate to delay a response to such an issue for upto 2 weeks, so the Board doesn't wait for it's regular Board meeting and discusses and decides via email

Board meetings are typically where non-urgent 'day to day' type stuff is discussed (eg. openSUSE conference planning and preparation, TSP status, Release status) and where broader ongoing topics may be discussed (general direction of the Project, trends in community concerns mailed to board@opensuse.org, so on and so forth)

That still does not explain why the Board stopped posting minutes. It could have been simply we have not done anything.

Or to put it another way

The Board discusses and reacts to all issues raised to board@opensuse.org as fast as it can, and does not wait until the next Board meeting to start discussing or acting on such emails. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-- Regards Manu Gupta -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 8:15 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

On 7 January 2016 at 08:30, Manu Gupta wrote:

...

...

The Boards actions regarding moderation of the mailinglists were in direct response to direct requests to board@opensuse.org by various community members

Why was not this announced? Typically, any moderation takes place by the list owner.

A list admin was ultimately the one doing the action - and the list admins typically do not announce when moderation takes place.

...

...

Board meetings are typically where non-urgent 'day to day' type stuff is discussed (eg. openSUSE conference planning and preparation, TSP status, Release status) and where broader ongoing topics may be discussed (general direction of the Project, trends in community concerns mailed to board@opensuse.org, so on and so forth)

That still does not explain why the Board stopped posting minutes. It could have been simply we have not done anything.

This was already answered in my other post in the thread, sent about an hour after this post which you are quoting:

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2016-01/msg00025.html

I apologize, I did not read it. However, great points and I love that this was over communicated now (better late than never). Thank you for posting it again. -- Regards Manu Gupta -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown wrote:

We have been very lax at posting the minutes of these meetings to opensuse-project@opensuse.org or the wiki - for that I apologise. As the Board is doing more and more these days, the old process (have meeting via phone, have someone write minutes, collate minutes and post) is struggling, and one thing I will be bringing as a discussion point to the new Board, once it's elected, is improving on the process so it's a lot easier for everyone to know what the Board is upto. One thing I want the next Board to consider for example is possibly recording the Google hangouts, so we can post them somewhere for people to directly see what goes on during those meetings (of course, there would need to be some way of handling the private issues which the Board still has to deal with...I don't have the answers, I just know this is a topic we need to discuss)

Hearing what the community would like to see in terms of reporting from the Board would also be helpful - there is a lot that we discuss which I think would ultimately bore people..we don't want to overburden people with endless noise, part of the reason the Board is dealing with such stuff is so everyone else doesn't have to :)

It might not be easy to find consensus on what the community wants (or needs) to know, so if you end up recording the sessions anyway, maybe just post the recordings in their entirety.

Rather than dig through a whole bunch of emails, I'm going to selectively go through the minutes that I do have to hand and summarise what we've been upto since March below

Thanks for posting that. I'll update the wiki with it, if that's okay? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (7.0°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, Am Mittwoch, 6. Januar 2016 schrieb Richard Brown:

On 6 January 2016 at 15:31, Per Jessen wrote:

...

...

Hearing what the community would like to see in terms of reporting from the Board would also be helpful - there is a lot that we discuss which I think would ultimately bore people..we don't want to overburden people with endless noise, part of the reason the Board is dealing with such stuff is so everyone else doesn't have to :)

It might not be easy to find consensus on what the community wants (or needs) to know, so if you end up recording the sessions anyway, maybe just post the recordings in their entirety.

Good point, will make sure that opinion is carried into the discussions.

Having the recordings is of course good for transparency and for knowing all details, however it has a disadvantage - people will need lots of time to watch the recording, and I slightly doubt lots of people will spend an hour for each meeting. Ideally, I'd like to have a short summary of the meeting - with the option to watch the recording if the summary sounds interesting enough ;-) (bonus points if the summary includes timestamps when each topic starts ;-) Yes, I know I'm asking the board to do more work (summary + recording), so feel free to adjust it to something that you can actually handle. I also understand that there are some topics that should not be handled in public - a common way for handling this is splitting the meeting to a) public topics (with recordings published) and b) non-public topics. To avoid sending out another mail just for that - thanks for the update about oSC16! Regards, Christian Boltz -- hospitalistische Gründe. Wer heilt, hat Recht. [Tao te Puh in opensuse-de] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 06/01/2016 14:59, Richard Brown a écrit :

March - dominated by the annual Board Face to Face meeting at SUSE HQ (...) - Membership - Board agreed the Membership Program is in need of reform, the membership list includes many inactive individuals, that it is currently impossible to accurately measure the activity of our current core contributors. An action item was given for Michal to develop a tool to help identify member activity as a starting point for tidying up the inactive list. Board agreed that no Member should be removed if they still wanted to be a member, even if inactive. ie. “You're an openSUSE Member for as long as you're interested enough to stay one”

June - openSUSE Membership tidy up was discussed at length both in opensuse-project and in Board meetings

November - some meetings disrupted by SUSEcon and openSUSE Asia. Had an 'unofficial' Face to Face meeting at SUSEcon (minus Michal)

I wanted to make something on the subject on May, but was said it was not useful, something being prepared. where are we on this important subject, that should have been fixed before election, given it's about the "voting" members? thanks jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 06/01/2016 15:43, Richard Brown a écrit :

...

where are we on this important subject, that should have been fixed before election, given it's about the "voting" members?

thanks jdd

In principle, I agree

In practice, I think that's infeasible - we do not want the current Board to carry on indefinitely.

I don't ask for this :-) - sorry to have made you think so :-)

That doesn't make the inactive member situation any less of a problem, but does make me a little more comfortable than the upcoming elections have a good chance of reflecting the current will of our current 'sustained and substantial' contributors.

yes, but I only wanted to know where is the "work in progress" thanks jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 06/01/2016 16:04, Richard Brown a écrit :

First, because I just realised that I didn't say it explicitly above...

*Thank You* for all the work you've done this year in helping improve the effectiveness of the Membership Committee and your continued efforts helping with reforming the Membership programme

not necessary You have a difficult position as being the speaker, and do speak really for the board, as you looks like being often attacked. It's also because you report more than ever. and definitely reporting is a good thing, thank you for this hard job. Without reports there can be no discussion, and discussion usually makes things better (even hard discussion like the one about Carlos :-() sincerely (and forgive an english that is far beyond what I would like) jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org