[opensuse-project] OBS in the product_highlights
Heya all, Last year our Product Highlights only talked about what we officially ship in the OSS repo and on the DVD. This year, I couldn't help but add a few really cool things we're doing outside of our normal repo's, including the cloud stacks (OpenStack, OpenNebula and Eucalyptus), ownCloud and Calligra. I'm getting some requests to add more things. Now the stuff above either has been around for a long time, is really VERY cool, is better than what we ship or accidentally didn't make it in. But yes, we could add more. Like a mention of the awesome Games repository. Of course, with disclaimers and all - but it would be perceived as 'part of openSUSE 12.1'. At least as add-on services. Now I know many of you object to talking up non-official repos and things. And we hide the 'home' projects on OBS by default when searching for a reason. Personally, I think we should still talk those things up a lot more. Our competition does it (PPA's are like home projects, not even on the level of our more 'official' things like the Networking or Cloud repo's) and as users still have to go through extra effort to get it (and we warn them) I don't think it will do harm. Meanwhile, right now it can be quite hard to locate stuff... So without further ado my proposal. - we add info and a link to semi-offical repos like Games or security in the relevant section of the highlights - Only maintainers/packagers from one such repos are allowed add it. That way THEY decide if their repo is ready, or useful for the general public. - They can add many or as little warnings and disclaimers they like but the marketeers will fix wording etc to make it all look consistent. - We do NOT mention home projects; only projects which have a number of people working on them! All this does NOT mean you should not get your stuff in Factory. That is still the only way to really get talked up and noticed by the vast majority of our users! But this DOES give our users a bit more exposure to the cool stuff you all do on OBS. And it makes our release a tad more exciting! Obviously we have to decide quickly but it is a big change... I therefor ask you to already add the repo's and info, if desired, to the opensuse.org/Product_highlights page. Meanwhile we discuss on this list and decide before Tuesday next week. If, at that point, there seems to be no consensus for doing this, I will remove the added links. We delay to 12.2 if it seems to need more discussion. If we agree to do it, I keep the changes in and make sure the press knows about this. About the decision making process - some still seem to think SUSE makes decisions here. Rest assured, it does not, I just came up with this proposal because people ask me about this. And all opinions will be equal, but the opinions from those who do significant work on these extra repositories will be more equal than others. Cheers, Jos -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Fredag den 11. november 2011 19:00:49 skrev Jos Poortvliet:
Last year our Product Highlights only talked about what we officially ship in the OSS repo and on the DVD.
Tumbleweed was mentioned in official announcements for 11.4, and there are still confused people thinking tumbleweed is an official distribution from the openSUSE project or that openSUSE went rolling release. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am 11.11.2011 19:57, schrieb Martin Schlander:
Fredag den 11. november 2011 19:00:49 skrev Jos Poortvliet:
Last year our Product Highlights only talked about what we officially ship in the OSS repo and on the DVD. Tumbleweed was mentioned in official announcements for 11.4, and there are still confused people thinking tumbleweed is an official distribution from the openSUSE project or that openSUSE went rolling release.
Then the release notes/the announcements have to make clear that tumbleweed *isn´t* an official distro or that we´re went rolling release. I guess something like "Tumbleweed, an additional rolling release repository, gives you the chance to feed your openSUSE installation with the latest stable software." Of course avoiding the term "rolling release" is also possible :-) --kdl -- -o) Kim Leyendecker, openSUSE Community Member /\\ Email: leyendecker@{lignus.de.vu, opensuse.org} _\_v http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Jos et al, On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 04:00:49PM -0200, Jos Poortvliet wrote: [ 8< ]
- we add info and a link to semi-offical repos like Games or security in the relevant section of the highlights - Only maintainers/packagers from one such repos are allowed add it. That way THEY decide if their repo is ready, or useful for the general public. - They can add many or as little warnings and disclaimers they like but the marketeers will fix wording etc to make it all look consistent. - We do NOT mention home projects; only projects which have a number of people working on them!
All this does NOT mean you should not get your stuff in Factory. That is still the only way to really get talked up and noticed by the vast majority of our users! But this DOES give our users a bit more exposure to the cool stuff you all do on OBS. And it makes our release a tad more exciting!
We talked about Samba in the draft of the release notes. The content unfortunately didn't made it into the final version. Not a big deal. But therefore I also count the network:samba:STABLE repository as something not passing the criteria of being cool and hip enough for getting added to the planned announcement. I appreciate this approach to keep the stable stuff away from our users. ;) BTW At the moment Samba from network:samba:STABLE is already one fix ahead of the code we offer with openSUSE 12.1. Cheers Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
On Friday, November 11, 2011 20:06:16 Lars Müller wrote:
Jos et al,
On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 04:00:49PM -0200, Jos Poortvliet wrote: [ 8< ]
- we add info and a link to semi-offical repos like Games or security in the relevant section of the highlights - Only maintainers/packagers from one such repos are allowed add it. That way THEY decide if their repo is ready, or useful for the general public. - They can add many or as little warnings and disclaimers they like but the marketeers will fix wording etc to make it all look consistent. - We do NOT mention home projects; only projects which have a number of people working on them!
All this does NOT mean you should not get your stuff in Factory. That is still the only way to really get talked up and noticed by the vast majority of our users! But this DOES give our users a bit more exposure to the cool stuff you all do on OBS. And it makes our release a tad more exciting!
We talked about Samba in the draft of the release notes. The content unfortunately didn't made it into the final version. Not a big deal.
That would be a mistake, then, I must have missed it when migrating. I will look up the etherpad and see what went wrong. Thanks for mentioning. Let me make one thing clear: NOTHING is not cool enough for the Product Highlights. Basically, they can contain even the tiniest change in the openSUSE repos.
But therefore I also count the network:samba:STABLE repository as something not passing the criteria of being cool and hip enough for getting added to the planned announcement. I appreciate this approach to keep the stable stuff away from our users. ;)
BTW At the moment Samba from network:samba:STABLE is already one fix ahead of the code we offer with openSUSE 12.1.
I couldn't find anything written about samba in the etherpad. It looks like nobody knowledgeable about Samba was willing or able to jot down any notes on it so the marketing team had nothing to work with. We can't write about things without help from those who know about it! If you or anyone else wants to rectify this - please put something here: http://en.opensuse.org/Product_highlights#Network_tools_and_web_applications Then you can add the repo mention too :D Note that the text does not have to be polished, a bunch of notes or a braindump is fine too. I'll be happy to fix the wording or Germanglish :D
Cheers
Lars
On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 01:47:36PM -0200, Jos Poortvliet wrote: [ 8< ]
I couldn't find anything written about samba in the etherpad.
Kim did it after I passed him some pointers. See http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2011-10/msg00087.html
It looks like nobody knowledgeable about Samba was willing or able to jot down any notes on it so the marketing team had nothing to work with. We can't write about things without help from those who know about it! If you or anyone else wants to rectify this - please put something here: http://en.opensuse.org/Product_highlights#Network_tools_and_web_applications
Dude, my head and brain are always willing. ;) I wrote something. Not brilliant but better than nothing. Please check and polish.
Then you can add the repo mention too :D
I've added a generic pointer to the Samba page inside en.openSUSE.org.
Note that the text does not have to be polished, a bunch of notes or a braindump is fine too. I'll be happy to fix the wording or Germanglish :D
And shift it to Netherlangish? ;) Cheers Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
On Saturday, November 12, 2011 23:49:44 Lars Müller wrote:
On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 01:47:36PM -0200, Jos Poortvliet wrote: [ 8< ]
I couldn't find anything written about samba in the etherpad.
Kim did it after I passed him some pointers. See http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2011-10/msg00087.html
It looks like nobody knowledgeable about Samba was willing or able to jot down any notes on it so the marketing team had nothing to work with. We can't write about things without help from those who know about it! If you or anyone else wants to rectify this - please put something here: http://en.opensuse.org/Product_highlights#Network_tools_and_web_applicat ions Dude, my head and brain are always willing. ;) I wrote something. Not brilliant but better than nothing. Please check and polish.
Awesome, it's all good... I did extend it with some of the stuff from the Samba announcement so people don't have to click through if they're lazy but I couldn't find anything to complain about. And that is quite an accomplishment because - I'm Dutch :D
Then you can add the repo mention too :D
I've added a generic pointer to the Samba page inside en.openSUSE.org.
Cool.
Note that the text does not have to be polished, a bunch of notes or a braindump is fine too. I'll be happy to fix the wording or Germanglish :D
And shift it to Netherlangish? ;)
Ha, thanks, I always use to say "Denglish" when describing my form of English but that interferes with the way the Danes mangle English. Nederlanglish sounds much better. And you should be as comfortable with Nederlanglish as with Germanglish, after all, German is just a Dutch dialect.
Cheers
Lars
/me hides
On Friday 11 Nov 2011 16:00:49 Jos Poortvliet wrote:
Heya all,
Last year our Product Highlights only talked about what we officially ship in the OSS repo and on the DVD. This year, I couldn't help but add a few really cool things we're doing outside of our normal repo's, including the cloud stacks (OpenStack, OpenNebula and Eucalyptus), ownCloud and Calligra.
Why do you suggest promoting them in the 12.1 Product Highlights? Surely we can make 2 or more good stories out of this instead of one bloated one that will make TL;DR* reflexes kick in? Is it really impossible to get people to publish and read openSUSE news items other than the distro release? IMO our OBS projects' output is a second amazing product of the openSUSE project. To conflate them into 12.1 does not give them the attention they deserve, and it prevents you from talking up the cross-distro packaging features the OBS provides. You should revise our communications approach instead of shoehorning everything into the highlights. Will * "Too Long; Didn't Read" -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Will Stephenson
On Friday 11 Nov 2011 16:00:49 Jos Poortvliet wrote:
Heya all,
Last year our Product Highlights only talked about what we officially ship in the OSS repo and on the DVD. This year, I couldn't help but add a few really cool things we're doing outside of our normal repo's, including the cloud stacks (OpenStack, OpenNebula and Eucalyptus), ownCloud and Calligra.
Why do you suggest promoting them in the 12.1 Product Highlights? Surely we can make 2 or more good stories out of this instead of one bloated one that will make TL;DR* reflexes kick in? Is it really impossible to get people to publish and read openSUSE news items other than the distro release?
IMO our OBS projects' output is a second amazing product of the openSUSE project. To conflate them into 12.1 does not give them the attention they deserve, and it prevents you from talking up the cross-distro packaging features the OBS provides. You should revise our communications approach instead of shoehorning everything into the highlights.
Will
I work on two different kinds of packages. One is filesystem related (filesystems:ext4dev-snapshots) and the packages are extremely tied into kernel. It is only targeting 12.1 builds, so it makes sense to me to mention it in the 12.1 release notes. Other packages are typically userspace and target all the supported releases (11.3/11.4/12.1) For those, I agree with Will, I would rather see that promoted via another mechanism. Maybe every month or two a article discussing significant activities in the devel projects can be put out. (I for one avoid the home directories of anyone but me.) Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday, November 11, 2011 16:22:59 Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Will Stephenson
wrote: On Friday 11 Nov 2011 16:00:49 Jos Poortvliet wrote:
Heya all,
Last year our Product Highlights only talked about what we officially ship in the OSS repo and on the DVD. This year, I couldn't help but add a few really cool things we're doing outside of our normal repo's, including the cloud stacks (OpenStack, OpenNebula and Eucalyptus), ownCloud and Calligra.
Why do you suggest promoting them in the 12.1 Product Highlights? Surely we can make 2 or more good stories out of this instead of one bloated one that will make TL;DR* reflexes kick in? Is it really impossible to get people to publish and read openSUSE news items other than the distro release?
IMO our OBS projects' output is a second amazing product of the openSUSE project. To conflate them into 12.1 does not give them the attention they deserve, and it prevents you from talking up the cross-distro packaging features the OBS provides. You should revise our communications approach instead of shoehorning everything into the highlights.
Will
I work on two different kinds of packages.
One is filesystem related (filesystems:ext4dev-snapshots) and the packages are extremely tied into kernel. It is only targeting 12.1 builds, so it makes sense to me to mention it in the 12.1 release notes.
In that case, feel free to add it.
Other packages are typically userspace and target all the supported releases (11.3/11.4/12.1)
For those, I agree with Will, I would rather see that promoted via another mechanism.
Maybe every month or two a article discussing significant activities in the devel projects can be put out. (I for one avoid the home directories of anyone but me.)
Aj picked up writing about what happened at Factory in the last week at some point but I haven't seen much. Problem with these things is that the openSUSE marketing people simply don't know much technical details so we can't do this. We can polish up any braindump or simple list of notes into an article, sure, so if anyone is willing to send such things to opensuse-marketing or news@opensuse.org or just to me, we'd be happy to pick it up.. So yeah, I don't disagree with Will that there might be better ways to point people to these repos. But we won't manage that unless we get some help. Meanwhile, the 12.1 page has a summary of what's cool and new for those who just want a quick peek. IF people click through to the Product Highlights, they get on a huge page - the links to OBS repos won't change much as it's a fact that anyone with a short attention span wouldn't care about those extensive product highlights anyway :D I bet the vast majority of you won't read them. It's interesting for people who have time to read em', the press which wants to pick out something special and focus on that and for those who want to know more about a specific thing (that's what the index & browser search are for). For all these cases, the extra lines with OBS links offer value rather than distraction. Cheers, Jos
Greg
On Saturday, November 12, 2011 13:55:15 Jos Poortvliet wrote:
On Friday, November 11, 2011 16:22:59 Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Will Stephenson
<snip> Maybe every month or two a article discussing significant activities in the devel projects can be put out. (I for one avoid the home directories of anyone but me.)
Aaaand we can have our cake and eat it too. I've started an article about openSUSE repo's and how to get stuff. Will talk about our awesome games store, how to use one-click-install and show how to navigate a project towards the packages with the download links (which offer one-click-install links). We don't really have a very nice list of repo's beyond the (very) few mentioned on http://en.opensuse.org/Additional_package_repositories do we? Putting stuff in the Product Highlights could be a start of that, no matter what we decide :D Please spread the word on this. I didn't want to cross-post to factory (as this is not a development matter and that list has enough off-topic chatter as it is) but quite some people seem to have left -project due to the bikeshedding so I hope I can count on everyone here to talk about this to maintainers of cool repo's our users should know about. <snip>
Cheers, Jos
Greg
Jos Poortvliet wrote:
I'm getting some requests to add more things. Now the stuff above either has been around for a long time, is really VERY cool, is better than what we ship or accidentally didn't make it in. But yes, we could add more. Like a mention of the awesome Games repository. Of course, with disclaimers and all - but it would be perceived as 'part of openSUSE 12.1'. At least as add-on services.
The openSUSE distribution has packaging policies, licence checks, checkin reviews, freezes etc for a reason. Random build service projects, including projects that also incidentally happen to act as staging project for Factory are intentenionally not bound to those rules. Joe Average has no way to find or not the knowledge to judge whether a project is "safe" or not. That's what we have the official openSUSE distribution repos for. I therefore strongly oppose against advertising any repo aside from the offical ones (ie oss, non-oss and update). We must not train users to install arbitrary stuff the Windows way. The distro is our app store. If anything is worth to be used by more than just the few geeks that are capable of building the package themselves anyways get it into the distro! cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 14/11/2011 11:23, Ludwig Nussel a écrit :
rules. Joe Average has no way to find or not the knowledge to judge whether a project is "safe" or not. That's what we have the official openSUSE distribution repos for.
what is the status of the "obs" repositories available through the community option in yast/add repos? I must say usually I keep away from these, but are they safe? thanks jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Mandag den 14. november 2011 13:01:11 skrev jdd:
Le 14/11/2011 11:23, Ludwig Nussel a écrit :
rules. Joe Average has no way to find or not the knowledge to judge whether a project is "safe" or not. That's what we have the official openSUSE distribution repos for.
what is the status of the "obs" repositories available through the community option in yast/add repos?
I must say usually I keep away from these, but are they safe?
They're completely untested and unsupported of course like all OBS repos. But (iirc)... they only have leaf packages, so they won't screw around with your base system, core libraries or basic desktop environment - in other words they won't "break your system" - just single applications in the worst case. Also they only have stuff which is deemed "stable" upstream - not alphas, betas, random snapshots from Git etc. So of course they're not 100% idiot proof. But they're fairly safe. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 14/11/2011 17:39, Martin Schlander a écrit :
So of course they're not 100% idiot proof. But they're fairly safe.
ok, thanks jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday, November 14, 2011 11:23:30 Ludwig Nussel wrote:
Jos Poortvliet wrote:
I'm getting some requests to add more things. Now the stuff above either has been around for a long time, is really VERY cool, is better than what we ship or accidentally didn't make it in. But yes, we could add more. Like a mention of the awesome Games repository. Of course, with disclaimers and all - but it would be perceived as 'part of openSUSE 12.1'. At least as add-on services.
The openSUSE distribution has packaging policies, licence checks, checkin reviews, freezes etc for a reason. Random build service projects, including projects that also incidentally happen to act as staging project for Factory are intentenionally not bound to those rules. Joe Average has no way to find or not the knowledge to judge whether a project is "safe" or not. That's what we have the official openSUSE distribution repos for. I therefore strongly oppose against advertising any repo aside from the offical ones (ie oss, non-oss and update). We must not train users to install arbitrary stuff the Windows way. The distro is our app store. If anything is worth to be used by more than just the few geeks that are capable of building the package themselves anyways get it into the distro!
I understand some things won't ever make it into the distro. Moreover, users often want things more up to date than what we ship. Also, many applications users want simply are not part of our repos. So if OBS is 'officially' not a solution to what's lacking from openSUSE-proper, we should at some point think about a solution for that. But, as nobody seems to disagree with you (yet), I'll not point to other repositories besides the ones already in. We can discuss our policy for 12.2. Cheers, Jos
cu Ludwig
participants (8)
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Greg Freemyer
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jdd
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Jos Poortvliet
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Kim Leyendecker
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Lars Müller
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Ludwig Nussel
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Martin Schlander
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Will Stephenson