[opensuse-project] Strategy sucks

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Re: [opensuse-project] What's the...

Andreas Jaeger

9 Sep 2010 9 Sep '10

09:30

Hi all, Over the last weeks there has been a lot of disussion, both internally and externally, about the strategies which have been proposed. However, we also missed a lot of voices from our community. We take responsibility for leaving many of you behind by focusing on a very corporate-management solution to the initial question which prompted this process. A question we think still is relevant: The identity of openSUSE both as a Community and as a Project. Initially our goal was to answer: “Who is openSUSE and what does it (want to) do?” prompted by the discussion about the default desktop at the openSUSE conference last year. In five years the openSUSE project has evolved from a fully company-driven project to a communty project where everybody can contribute. This has brought uncertainty and a lack of direction. The current lack of a clear ‘story behind it all’ is hampering our ability to establish a common identity and sense of security. From a marketing point of view, it becomes an uphill battle… Throughout the process, we consulted some people and the discussion about a strategy started with the goal to solve this issue. However, many feel that ‘strategy’ and the approach to find one is not fitting our community. We lost most of you in the second paragraph of the strategy pages on the wiki – too much talk. We would like to go back to the start and focus on describing who we are, as a community, instead of finding new ways to go. The input you all have given us by mail, forums, IRC and in person was valuable and we will use that. So that is what we will do: * Highlight the story behind openSUSE * Identify what users we target and illustrate what we offer to them, * Connect it with the issues that matter most to our community And then we will document this story, image, direction, strategy – or however your call it ;) . From you all – we will continue to seek your input on it once we post it. By mail, forum, IRC or in person – again. Without your help it won’t be much, so please think about that! Greetings, Your strategy team P.S. Also posted at http://news.opensuse.org/2010/09/03/strategy-sucks/ -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

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jdd

9 Sep 9 Sep

10:43

Le 09/09/2010 11:30, Andreas Jaeger a écrit :

...

We would like to go back to the start and focus on describing who we are, as a community, instead of finding new ways to go.

good start :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Jan Engelhardt

11:40

On Thursday 2010-09-09 11:30, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Initially our goal was to answer: “Who is openSUSE and what does it (want to) do?”[...] In five years the openSUSE project has evolved from a fully company-driven project to a communty project where everybody can contribute. This has brought uncertainty and a lack of direction.

It looks like Novell unilaterally decided to prioritize GNOME (back then), while the community always wanted KDE, but the latter was only really expressible after opening FATE to the public (votes are easier countable than emails to MLs apparently). Or something like that. I disagree to blaming openSUSE for causing the confusion. Perhaps it's time to stop thinking of openSUSE as a "product" (that sounds just as corporate as "strategy"), and instead let it become a piece of art, or whatever people call theirs. (IIRC never seen the word "product" on debian.org, for instance.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Andreas Jaeger

12:00

On Thursday 09 September 2010 13:40:21 Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Thursday 2010-09-09 11:30, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...
Initially our goal was to answer: “Who is openSUSE and what does it (want to) do?”[...] In five years the openSUSE project has evolved from a fully company-driven project to a communty project where everybody can contribute. This has brought uncertainty and a lack of direction.

It looks like Novell unilaterally decided to prioritize GNOME (back then), while the community always wanted KDE, but the latter was only really expressible after opening FATE to the public (votes are easier countable than emails to MLs apparently). Or something like that. I disagree to blaming openSUSE for causing the confusion.

Nobody is blaming openSUSE for this - this is just the way it worked out in this case.

...

Perhaps it's time to stop thinking of openSUSE as a "product" (that sounds just as corporate as "strategy"), and instead let it become a piece of art, or whatever people call theirs. (IIRC never seen the word "product" on debian.org, for instance.)

openSUSE for me is a project and a community that contains two major products: The distribution and the build service. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Gerald Pfeifer

10 Sep 10 Sep

23:50

On Thu, 9 Sep 2010, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

Perhaps it's time to stop thinking of openSUSE as a "product"

Funny that you mention that. ;-) Every time, and in fact just before sending this e-mail, when I see a reference to openSUSE as a product at Novell, I request to get that changed. For, if one thing is crystal clear to me and should be to everyone else involved at Novell and beyond is that openSUSE is _not_ a Novell product. And nobody should see or treat it like that. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer Director Product Management, SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Charles Wight

11 Sep 11 Sep

15:10

On 09/10/2010 06:50 PM, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

...

...
Perhaps it's time to stop thinking of openSUSE as a "product" ... openSUSE is _not_ a Novell

On Thu, 9 Sep 2010, Jan Engelhardt wrote: product. And nobody should see or treat it like that.

Gerald

Hello Gerald, I wish I could agree with you, but from where I sit, it looks like a Novell product. And from reading the nonsensical and pointless marketing mumbo jumbo here and elsewhere ... it REALLY looks like a Novell product ... and in the USA, that's NOT good! meeGo & mono ... are these "community" driven priorities? Ironically, I think Novell will see a much better return on investment if openSUSE returns to what made SuSE a great product ... HIGH QUALITY! Cheers! cwight -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Jos Poortvliet

12 Sep 12 Sep

20:23

On Saturday 11 September 2010 17:10:00 Charles Wight wrote:

...

On 09/10/2010 06:50 PM, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

...
...
Perhaps it's time to stop thinking of openSUSE as a "product" ... openSUSE is _not_ a Novell

On Thu, 9 Sep 2010, Jan Engelhardt wrote: product. And nobody should see or treat it like that.

Gerald

Hello Gerald,

I wish I could agree with you, but from where I sit, it looks like a Novell product.

Weird. Novell doesn't sell it, nor even try... They do put a lot of effort in it but are trying to let go - pretty hard...

...

And from reading the nonsensical and pointless marketing mumbo jumbo here and elsewhere ... it REALLY looks like a Novell product ... and in the USA, that's NOT good! meeGo & mono ... are these "community" driven priorities?

MeeGo is Linux Foundation, our Smeegol work is done by a volunteer (our esteemed FunkyPenguin aka Andrew Wafaa). Sounds very community to me... Even then, it is one of the things going on in the community, not a priority by any means. Mono surely is a Novell effort, but how is it openSUSE? Of course Novell puts effort in integrating it well in openSUSE but they could do the same for Fedora or Ubuntu if they would've liked - they do it in their role as contributor. And again, it is something which is going on - you could start an effort

...

Ironically, I think Novell will see a much better return on investment if openSUSE returns to what made SuSE a great product ... HIGH QUALITY!

Novell makes no money on openSUSE whatsoever - so it wouldn't help them at all. They could of course stop developing openSUSE in the open, no longer working with you all, and simply have their engineers focus on SLES/SLED - which DOES make em money. But that would mean no free SUSE products for us, no SUSE Studio and SUSE Buildservice - it would be BAD for users, and mean less innovation in Free Software, I dare say. So let's be happy that Novell has decided to work in the open. Surely they have their reasons - they hope they can create a better product by working with us than alone. But isn't that why EVERY company working in Free Software gets its business value? Canonical? Red Hat, IBM, VMWare, Intel, Nokia, you name it... You believe there are companies investing millions in Free Software because they like us so much? So surely, if this community effort fails, Novell might get better value by doing it alone. But currently they believe it is better to work with a community. And I think they are right - I believe in the Free Software model and in this community. I think it is better for Novell to invest in openness, in coopration - among other things by telling their engineers to work with you all, by putting in sponsorship money, and more and more. I think they will indeed create a better product that way. And I certainly hope so - because, as I said, the world of Free Software would surely not be better off without openSUSE. Greetings, Jos

...

Cheers!

cwight

Vincent Untz

20:59

Hi, Le samedi 11 septembre 2010, à 10:10 -0500, Charles Wight a écrit :

...

On 09/10/2010 06:50 PM, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

...
...
Perhaps it's time to stop thinking of openSUSE as a "product" ... openSUSE is _not_ a Novell

On Thu, 9 Sep 2010, Jan Engelhardt wrote: product. And nobody should see or treat it like that.

Gerald

Hello Gerald,

I wish I could agree with you, but from where I sit, it looks like a Novell product. And from reading the nonsensical and pointless marketing mumbo jumbo here and elsewhere ... it REALLY looks like a Novell product ...

Can you elaborate a bit on this? With examples, or links. If this is "just" a perception issue, then we can work on fixing this. If you believe it's more than a perception issue, then elaborating more would help me (and maybe others) understand :-) Thanks, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Charles Wight

13 Sep 13 Sep

05:04

Hello Vincent, Jos, All I think my point has been a little misunderstood, undoubtedly due to my curt style. No Novell = No OpenSUSE ... it's a Novell product! The folks writing the code (or at least the lion's share of it) are PAID to do so by Novell. To think of OpenSUSE as ANYTHING other than a Novell product strikes me as naive. This is not an issue of perception; it's an OBVIOUS REALITY! I do not wish to describe this reality as good, bad, fuzzy, or even purple .... it just is! It's probably bad for folks trying to sell SLED/SLES in the USA, which I wrote as, "and in the USA, that's NOT good!" The OpenSUSE project/product/gizmo/community/social widget/thingy is not in and of itself a money maker for Novell, but it is important in terms of getting the attention of IT folks. In part, it is a marketing tool. Novell (and Red Hat) are hoping that the "community" approach will get them some free labor and free advertising, hence lowering marketing costs. This is the game! As a user of OpenSUSE, I benefit; I get a free OS (although I actually paid for SuSE back in the day and would gladly do so again). Remember the manifesto, "free as in freedom, not free beer"! I am simply expressing an opinion: OpenSUSE is loosing market share and mind share to Ubuntu and Fedora because the quality is declining! It's NOT a marketing issue. It doesn't matter how cute the gecko is ... or how flowery the "strategy" drafts are written ... or how good the "feel good" social widget feels .... I think it's a quality issue! I am participating in this forum ONLY because of my disappointment with the last several releases. I, perhaps mistakenly, have taken the community buzz at face value. I have read numerous conversations here and on the forums that indirectly address competing with Ubuntu and Fedora in terms of marketing and strategy. Rarely have I seen discussion about the simple fact that OpenSUSE is uncompetitive in several areas that are important. To become more competitive, OpenSUSE must reallocate resources into specific areas, which means other areas will loose resources. That means the discussion needs to be, "What do we drop?" and "Where do we put the focus?" Discussions along the lines of "who are we", "defining OpenSUSE", etc. seem vacuous. At the end of the day, it's a matter of where the money goes .... Novell's money! SuSE made inroads into the US market because it was a high quality product that developed a good reputation among IT folk like me. I don't really care if it's community driven or not ... I want a high quality os ... Have fun! cwight ------------------------------------ written from my FC13 box, my blackberry broke! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

jdd

06:17

Le 13/09/2010 07:04, Charles Wight a écrit :

...

I am simply expressing an opinion: OpenSUSE is loosing market share and mind share to Ubuntu and Fedora because the quality is declining!

may be it's your opinion, but I'm not sure it's the truth. The Ubuntu growth come before any significant change in openSUSE. The only drawback I see in openSUSE from Ubuntu (on our regions, nobody know of Fedora) is the strict "open" philosophy, making ot a bit difficult to include mp3 and libdvdcss. out of this, we have from time to time problems, but no more than others distros. not to say we can't do better, jdd NB: I just notice on Distrowatch than openSUSE is second after Ubuntu... -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner

06:22

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 08:17:05AM +0200, jdd wrote:

...

Le 13/09/2010 07:04, Charles Wight a écrit :

...
I am simply expressing an opinion: OpenSUSE is loosing market share and mind share to Ubuntu and Fedora because the quality is declining!

may be it's your opinion, but I'm not sure it's the truth.

The Ubuntu growth come before any significant change in openSUSE.

The only drawback I see in openSUSE from Ubuntu (on our regions, nobody know of Fedora) is the strict "open" philosophy, making ot a bit difficult to include mp3 and libdvdcss.

It is not "open philosophy" it is "avoid getting sued to hell" policy. ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Charles Wight

06:23

On 09/13/2010 01:22 AM, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

It is not "open philosophy" it is "avoid getting sued to hell" policy.

ciao, Marcus

Real politic at it's best! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Charles Wight

07:04

On 09/13/2010 01:17 AM, jdd wrote:

...

Le 13/09/2010 07:04, Charles Wight a écrit :

...
I am simply expressing an opinion: OpenSUSE is loosing market share and mind share to Ubuntu and Fedora because the quality is declining! may be it's your opinion, but I'm not sure it's the truth. I'm not sure either ... but I know I would like to see OpenSUSE do better! The Ubuntu growth come before any significant change in openSUSE.

The only drawback I see in openSUSE from Ubuntu (on our regions, nobody know of Fedora) is the strict "open" philosophy, making ot a bit difficult to include mp3 and libdvdcss.

I think "restricted" format handling is VERY important, assuming that OpenSUSE/Novell actually desire increased market presence. New users, whether technically astute or not, will expect the OS to handle all their illegally downloaded mp3, m4a, wmv, and xxx files gracefully. Getting OpenSUSE to play "restricted formats" has actually become increasingly difficult over the last several years. Fedora (actually gstreamer properly implemented) handles "restricted formats" almost transparently. And this horse is really dead .... cwight -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

jdd

07:48

Le 13/09/2010 09:04, Charles Wight a écrit :

...

their illegally downloaded mp3, m4a, wmv, and xxx files gracefully.

uh??? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Juergen Weigert

09:55

On Sep 13, 10 02:04:32 -0500, Charles Wight wrote:

...

...
The only drawback I see in openSUSE from Ubuntu (on our regions, nobody know of Fedora) is the strict "open" philosophy, making ot a bit difficult to include mp3 and libdvdcss.

I think "restricted" format handling is VERY important, assuming that OpenSUSE/Novell actually desire increased market presence.

I agree. Decent multimedia handling is expected to be commodity. openSUSE still has a long road to reach this.

...

New users, whether technically astute or not, will expect the OS to handle all their illegally downloaded mp3, m4a, wmv, and xxx files gracefully. Getting OpenSUSE to play "restricted formats" has actually become increasingly difficult over the last several years.

This "increase" was countered in 11.3, where a first attempt was made to handle the situation gracefully at least for amarok. If you click on an mp3 file, amarok shows a requester Amarok currentl cannot play MP3 files. Do you want to install support for MP3? [Install MP3 Support] [No] And then it goes out and searches community repositories for those codecs that we cannot ship with the product. We need more of this. I'd like to assist any volunteers with getting the legal hurdles right. cheers, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) "You are trying to use packages from project 'openSUSE:11.3'. Note that malicious packages can compromise your system." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz

11:00

Le lundi 13 septembre 2010, à 11:55 +0200, Juergen Weigert a écrit :

...

If you click on an mp3 file, amarok shows a requester

Amarok currentl cannot play MP3 files. Do you want to install support for MP3?

[Install MP3 Support] [No]

And then it goes out and searches community repositories for those codecs that we cannot ship with the product.

We need more of this. I'd like to assist any volunteers with getting the legal hurdles right.

How does it work exactly? I mean, how does it search community repo? See https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=637538 for the bug I opened to make it easier for gstreamer. I don't know if we can open up the bug -- it's opened against legal... Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Morales Vega

14 Sep 14 Sep

21:36

2010/9/13 Vincent Untz :

...

Le lundi 13 septembre 2010, à 11:55 +0200, Juergen Weigert a écrit :

...
If you click on an mp3 file, amarok shows a requester

Amarok currentl cannot play MP3 files. Do you want to install support for MP3?

[Install MP3 Support] [No]

And then it goes out and searches community repositories for those codecs that we cannot ship with the product.

We need more of this. I'd like to assist any volunteers with getting the legal hurdles right.

How does it work exactly? I mean, how does it search community repo?

Lubos will know better, but everything is at https://build.opensuse.org/package/view_file?file=ksuseinstall.diff&package=kdelibs4&project=KDE%3ADistro%3AFactory The Amarok specific part is at https://build.opensuse.org/package/view_file?file=ksuseinstall.diff&package=amarok&project=KDE%3ADistro%3AFactory It doesn't seems to be able to search community repos. In fact it's pretty primitive compared to the gstreamer way. "libxine1-codecs" is hardcoded in the Amarok patch, and it's installed through "yast2 -i libxine1-codecs". In case it's not available in any configured repo "yast2 repositories" is run for the user to configure it... manually. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Lubos Lunak

15 Sep 15 Sep

10:07

On Tuesday 14 of September 2010, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

2010/9/13 Vincent Untz :

...
Le lundi 13 septembre 2010, à 11:55 +0200, Juergen Weigert a écrit :

...
If you click on an mp3 file, amarok shows a requester

Amarok currentl cannot play MP3 files. Do you want to install support for MP3?

[Install MP3 Support] [No]

And then it goes out and searches community repositories for those codecs that we cannot ship with the product.

We need more of this. I'd like to assist any volunteers with getting the legal hurdles right.

How does it work exactly? I mean, how does it search community repo?

Lubos will know better, but everything is at https://build.opensuse.org/package/view_file?file=ksuseinstall.diff&package =kdelibs4&project=KDE%3ADistro%3AFactory The Amarok specific part is at https://build.opensuse.org/package/view_file?file=ksuseinstall.diff&package =amarok&project=KDE%3ADistro%3AFactory

It doesn't seems to be able to search community repos. In fact it's pretty primitive compared to the gstreamer way. "libxine1-codecs" is hardcoded in the Amarok patch, and it's installed through "yast2 -i libxine1-codecs". In case it's not available in any configured repo "yast2 repositories" is run for the user to configure it... manually.

Yes, about so, it's explained at http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/4232 . The codecs part is indeed stupid from the user's point of view, but I didn't manage to come up with anything better that'd be acceptable for legal :(. -- Lubos Lunak openSUSE Boosters team, KDE developer l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Dominique Leuenberger

13 Sep 13 Sep

08:45

...

...
...
On 09/13/2010 at 8:17 AM, jdd wrote: The only drawback I see in openSUSE from Ubuntu (on our regions, nobody know of Fedora) is the strict "open" philosophy, making ot a bit difficult to include mp3 and libdvdcss.

check the Non-oss repo of 11.3: the fluendo mp3 codec for example seems to be back and included. It could not be much easier than that. Other codecs, indeed, still impose a problem. Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Jan Engelhardt

08:59

On Monday 2010-09-13 08:17, jdd wrote:

...

jdd NB: I just notice on Distrowatch than openSUSE is second after Ubuntu...

What, where? 1 Ubuntu 2223 2 Fedora 1463 3 Mint 1374 4 openSUSE 1245 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

jdd

09:07

Le 13/09/2010 10:59, Jan Engelhardt a écrit :

...

On Monday 2010-09-13 08:17, jdd wrote:

...
jdd NB: I just notice on Distrowatch than openSUSE is second after Ubuntu...

What, where? 1 Ubuntu 2223 2 Fedora 1463 3 Mint 1374 4 openSUSE 1245

search for 3 last month probably related to 11.3 availability jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Andy

08:02

On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 11:04 PM, Charles Wight wrote:

...

Hello Vincent, Jos, All

I think my point has been a little misunderstood, undoubtedly due to my curt style.

No Novell = No OpenSUSE ... it's a Novell product! The folks writing the code (or at least the lion's share of it) are PAID to do so by Novell. To think of OpenSUSE as ANYTHING other than a Novell product strikes me as naive. This is not an issue of perception; it's an OBVIOUS REALITY!

I do not wish to describe this reality as good, bad, fuzzy, or even purple .... it just is!

It's probably bad for folks trying to sell SLED/SLES in the USA, which I wrote as, "and in the USA, that's NOT good!"

The OpenSUSE project/product/gizmo/community/social widget/thingy is not in and of itself a money maker for Novell, but it is important in terms of getting the attention of IT folks. In part, it is a marketing tool. Novell (and Red Hat) are hoping that the "community" approach will get them some free labor and free advertising, hence lowering marketing costs. This is the game!

As a user of OpenSUSE, I benefit; I get a free OS (although I actually paid for SuSE back in the day and would gladly do so again). Remember the manifesto, "free as in freedom, not free beer"!

I am simply expressing an opinion: OpenSUSE is loosing market share and mind share to Ubuntu and Fedora because the quality is declining! It's NOT a marketing issue. It doesn't matter how cute the gecko is

But to me, image is important. Visual connection is a great silent marketing tool. Yes, if Novell choses to put money into different areas to better the "quality" of openSUSE, I am sure that a more professional and friendly look into it will be necessary. ... or how

...

flowery the "strategy" drafts are written ... or how good the "feel good" social widget feels .... I think it's a quality issue!

I am participating in this forum ONLY because of my disappointment with the last several releases. I, perhaps mistakenly, have taken the community buzz at face value. I have read numerous conversations here and on the forums that indirectly address competing with Ubuntu and Fedora in terms of marketing and strategy.

Rarely have I seen discussion about the simple fact that OpenSUSE is uncompetitive in several areas that are important.

To become more competitive, OpenSUSE must reallocate resources into specific areas, which means other areas will loose resources. That means the discussion needs to be, "What do we drop?" and "Where do we put the focus?"

Discussions along the lines of "who are we", "defining OpenSUSE", etc. seem vacuous. At the end of the day, it's a matter of where the money goes .... Novell's money!

SuSE made inroads into the US market because it was a high quality product that developed a good reputation among IT folk like me. I don't really care if it's community driven or not ... I want a high quality os ...

Have fun!

cwight ------------------------------------ written from my FC13 box, my blackberry broke! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander

08:10

Mandag den 13. september 2010 07:04:11 skrev Charles Wight:

...

To become more competitive, OpenSUSE must reallocate resources into specific areas, which means other areas will loose resources. That means the discussion needs to be, "What do we drop?" and "Where do we put the focus?"

There are hardly any resources to reallocate, and even if there were, there'd be noone to actually allocate them in a way that would make sense for openSUSE. (As much as I hate to say it, I really think openSUSE has too few managers/suits). Perhaps with the exception of the openSUSE Boosters, openSUSE is just a bunch of self-managed individuals (some of which happen to be employed by Novell) doing pretty much whatever they darn please, regardless of what makes the most sense in "market terms". This is exactly what makes openSUSE a community project, and not a Novell product in a traditional sense. Like you I'd have prefered better Novell leadership and I think Novell would make more money on SLE if they cared about home users - just a little bit. When they start losing enterprise customers to Canonical maybe they'll realize the error of their ways - though I kind of doubt they'll get it even at that point. So instead of raving about what could have been, we should either try to help and make the best of what we have - or just go away and let people work in peace. At least if we formulate a strategy/mission statement/identity there's a _chance_ that _some_ of the contributors will get behind it, and maybe we can even attract some new contributors who share the goals set. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Charles Wight

09:27

On 09/13/2010 03:10 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

Mandag den 13. september 2010 07:04:11 skrev Charles Wight:

...
To become more competitive, OpenSUSE must reallocate resources into specific areas, which means other areas will loose resources. That means the discussion needs to be, "What do we drop?" and "Where do we put the focus?" There are hardly any resources to reallocate, and even if there were, there'd be noone to actually allocate them in a way that would make sense for openSUSE. (As much as I hate to say it, I really think openSUSE has too few managers/suits).

Perhaps with the exception of the openSUSE Boosters, openSUSE is just a bunch of self-managed individuals (some of which happen to be employed by Novell) doing pretty much whatever they darn please, regardless of what makes the most sense in "market terms". This is exactly what makes openSUSE a community project, and not a Novell product in a traditional sense.

To my mind, it's silly to have 4+ desktop environments implemented almost well rather than one or two done rock solid. Your characterization of OpenSUSE implies that such a reallocation would be impossible, impossible for lack of management.

...

Like you I'd have prefered better Novell leadership and I think Novell would make more money on SLE if they cared about home users - just a little bit. When they start losing enterprise customers to Canonical maybe they'll realize the error of their ways - though I kind of doubt they'll get it even at that point. LOL .... SVR4.2 anyone?

It's not just home users using OpenSUSE ... there are lots of Fedora, Ubuntu, and SuSE desktops in software dev shops all over the US, a few installed by me, ... SLE and OpenSUSE can't really be separated ... but I guess I'm preaching to the choir now ....

...

So instead of raving about what could have been, we should either try to help and make the best of what we have - or just go away and let people work in peace.

At least if we formulate a strategy/mission statement/identity there's a _chance_ that _some_ of the contributors will get behind it, and maybe we can even attract some new contributors who share the goals set. You present a perspective I had NOT considered! I am "forced" to rethink how to best serve my own interests in the project.

Thank you for an interesting and provocative reply! cwight -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz

09:33

Le lundi 13 septembre 2010, à 04:27 -0500, Charles Wight a écrit :

...

To my mind, it's silly to have 4+ desktop environments implemented almost well rather than one or two done rock solid. Your characterization of OpenSUSE implies that such a reallocation would be impossible, impossible for lack of management.

You can't reallocate people working on a desktop environment to another desktop environment. They'll just say no :-) That being said, I'm sure all the desktop teams would love to hear what is missing from your perspective to have you consider their desktop rock solid. I can only speak for GNOME here, but the quality of GNOME in the last two years has been going up steadily, and while it's not perfect, we're getting there -- so feedback on what's missing is most welcome. Feel free to send this feedback to opensuse-gnome, or to me privately, as I'm unsure opensuse-project is really appropriate for this. Thanks, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Gerald Pfeifer

7 Nov 7 Nov

14:36

On Sat, 11 Sep 2010, Charles Wight wrote:

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I wish I could agree with you, but from where I sit, it looks like a Novell product. And from reading the nonsensical and pointless marketing mumbo jumbo here and elsewhere ... it REALLY looks like a Novell product ... and in the USA, that's NOT good! meeGo & mono ... are these "community" driven priorities?

How do Meego and Mono come into play here and Novell's position and marketing around these. I thought we are discussing openSUSE?

...

Ironically, I think Novell will see a much better return on investment if openSUSE returns to what made SuSE a great product ... HIGH QUALITY!

We all, you, me, the openSUSE community at large, are very welcome to work on this. Which reminds me I need to file a number of bug reports that I have queued. That is one of my personal contributions to help improve quality. Others may screen some of these reports, fix them, help reproduce them, improve documentation,... lots to do for us. :-) Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer Director Product Management, SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

17:53

On Sunday 07 November 2010 08:36:09 Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

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Others may screen some of these reports, fix them, help reproduce them, improve documentation,... lots to do for us. :-)

Not to forget improving numbers of "others", so that someone can actually do what you mentioned :) -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

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Andreas Jaeger
Andy
Charles Wight
Cristian Morales Vega
Dominique Leuenberger
Gerald Pfeifer
Jan Engelhardt
jdd
Jos Poortvliet
Juergen Weigert
Lubos Lunak
Marcus Meissner
Martin Schlander
Rajko M.
Vincent Untz