[opensuse-project] openSUSE Board Face-to-Face Meeting 2016 Minutes - Part 1/3
openSUSE Face to Face Board Meeting 2016 Minutes 18th-20th March Present: Richard Brown - Chair Michal Hrušecký Kostas Koudaras Tomas Chvatal Gertjan Lettink Bryan Lunduke - Extra special thanks goes to Bryan for attending via video conference at ridiculous hours in his local timezone after urgent personal matters kept him from attending the meeting in person. As this years Board Meeting Minutes are so long, they are split into 3 sections Meetings - Covering the meetings the Board had with various SUSE executives, managers, and engineers. General - Covering the general agenda items/day-to-day issues Strategy - Covering the 'big picture' issues the Board discussed This email is Part 1, containing meeting minutes of meetings with SUSE = Meetings = == Meeting with openSUSE Release Manager - Ludwig Nussel == The Board met the new openSUSE Release Manager - Ludwig Nussel He shared the following tentative information about the planned release for Leap 42.2: Leap 42.2 will be based on SLE 12 SP2 and their release scheduled are 'aligned' (ie. They will be developed together, but not necessarily release together) Target release date for Leap 42.2 is 1st week of Nov 2016 Expected to have an updated systemd, GNOME, Qt, kernel all inherited from SLE 12 SP2 KDE of course will want to upgrade from 5.5, expected 5.6, discussions underway about what upgrade policy will make sense for the lifespan of Leap 42.2 We don't expect X will be updated, which will mean 42.2 will have the same version as 42.1, which is newer than the version in SLE 12 SP1 or expected in SP2 Leap 42.2 will start with a base of Leap 42.1, with packages updated from that point. The process for contributing to Leap 42.2 needs explanation We discussed the shape of how we'd like to see the wiki We all agreed want to see a big tidy up. Many of the Portals have little benefit and serve little purpose. We want to see the namespaces removed/flattened to help the search Tumbleweed deserves a Portal. Questions the page must answer include "What is Tumbleweed?" "Why use Tumbleweed?" and "Why might Leap be better for you?" Leap is similarly important, needing to answer the questions "What is Leap?" "Why use Leap?" and "Why might Tumbleweed be better for you?" Packaging Polices and the Factory process are other 'key' pages which must be preserved, polished, and refreshed during any wiki cleanup Team pages would be 'nice to have' but many Team pages are currently woefully out of date. We would like to see a solution investigated where the wiki team page is inherited from a devel project We discussed the idea of forming a "Release Team" with specific roles that are responsible for ensuring that key parts of the Release process are carried out Obvious roles include "Website coordinator" to ensure the website is updated "Wiki Coordinator", "Marketing Coordinator", "Test Coordinator", "Translation Coordinator" are other obvious roles These people would not necessarily be responsible for doing the work, but for coordinating with Ludwig and ensuring that the work gets done by someone. AI: Ludwig to mail the Board with any other "Roles" which are expected to be needed AI: Board + Ludwig to send a 'Call for Volunteers' for the roles, and to put together the team AI: Board to request release-team@opensuse.org list for this team Discussed some of our local teams. We share concerns that those teams with their own forums, own wikis, and own websites ultimately 'split' the community and make it harder for everyone to benefit from the shared knowledge, experience, and feeling of 'collective ownership' of the project. We'd like to see such sub-communities bought closer together and go forward more 'aligned' with the rest of the openSUSE Project We discussed some concerns regarding the current openSUSE Infrastructure software.opensuse.org serves two very important roles, both as the main download portal for our distributions, and as a software search for OBS PROPOSAL: Split software.opensuse.org to have the download portal and search separate. The download portal could be a simple, clean, fast, static site that would offer the Leap and Tumbleweed ISOs Software search would continue as it is...but we considered some problems with that The current implementation of One-Click installs is often dangerous. Because they add all the repos setup in the OBS repo you often end up with crazy things like Factory:ARM repos being added on systems where they are not relevant Furthermore, making it very easy to install packages from 'non-official' repos dramatically reduces the motivation and impetus for developers to put their packages in the Distribution Having packages in the Distribution though is the best way to ensure your package works, is tested, and is integrated So we would like to see One Click only pulling from the official repos If Packages are not in the official repos, we would like the software search to put users in touch with devel project maintainers to encourage the packages be added to the distributions CALL FOR HELP: We would like a maintainer for software.opensuse.org to help implement the above changes to the search and download functions of software.opensuse.org == Meeting with the SUSE Infrastructure Team == The Board received an update from Gerhard Schlotter, Marcus 'darix' Rueckert, and Lars Vogdt from the Infrastructure Team at SUSE SUSE host 12 physical servers for openSUSE services. This is in addition to the 127 OBS & openQA physical servers Those 12 macines host a total of 60 VMs The OBS and openQA hardware host a total of 820 VMs www.opensuse.org has 2.3 million visitors per month - how can we make that bigger? Discussed the immediate problems with some part of the infrastructure, especially the wiki. Some is hosted in SUSE's datacenter in Provo, some is hosted in Nuremberg Nuremberg datacentre has room and admins, but limited bandwidth (not enough for how busy stuff gets on releases) Provo datacenter has room and bandwidth, but limited admins. SUSE have an engineer moving from Nuremberg to Provo to help illivate that problem. Having sponsored hosting elsewhere is an option we want to actively pursue. We have hardware available if we can find a host. CALL FOR HELP: Please help us find sponsors willing to help find openSUSE infrastructure Infrastructure guys would like the Sponsorship leaflet to be updated in order to better court possible hardware and hosting sponsors AI: Douglas to update sponsorship guide Improvements to the @opensuse.org email system are being investigated Infra team would like connect.opensuse.org to be shutdown AI: Board to investigate alternatives for voting & membership management == Lunch == The Board had lunch with dozens of SUSE Engineers. Lots of different conversations but the key topics that stuck with the board include Discussions about how to improve translation/l10n tools and workflows Communication with the KDE Project How to get started with openSUSE, as a contributor and as a Project that wants to be part of the openSUSE Project. == Meeting with Ralf Flaxa - President, Product Engineering at SUSE == Ralf thanked the Board for coming and their ongoing work for the openSUSE Project, and expressed SUSE's pleasure with the success of Leap and the general direction of the openSUSE Project Ralf shared some ideas regarding oSC and his departments Hackweek AI: Board to discuss the ideas with the oSC organisers == Meeting with Roland Haidl - Director, Operations & Communities at SUSE == Roland reaffirmed SUSE's intention to continue funding the openSUSE Project at similar levels. Roland shared Douglas DeMaio's plan to refill our merchandise before openSUSE Conference 2016 Board requested budget for openSUSE Asia at the same levels as last year - Approved Discussed the possibility of the Board appointing a Treasurer to be the primary contact with SUSE on financial matters (Sponsorships, TSP, etc) - Approved Discussed the possibility of a hackathon for the Release Team, once it's formed - Approved in principle (Needs the team first) Discused the possibility of more 'minisummits' consisting of openSUSE presentation tracks and related events colocated at other events around the world - Approved in principle (Needs events and volunteers) Discussed the current wiki problems. Roland volunteered to help drive a solution AI: Richard - Infrastructure to be a standing topic in regular Chairman meetings with Roland == Tour == The Board was given a tour of the SUSE HQ, including the recently expanded office space and server rooms. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, Am Sonntag, 20. März 2016, 13:31:18 CET schrieb Richard Brown:
We discussed the shape of how we'd like to see the wiki We all agreed want to see a big tidy up. Many of the Portals have little benefit and serve little purpose. We want to see the namespaces removed/flattened to help the search
Please don't confuse the search with the wiki layout ;-) I'm not saying that the wiki doesn't need cleanup, but configuring the search is independent on that. For example, instead of searching only some namespaces by default and ignoring everything else, it should be configured to give those namespaces a higher weight, but still search all other namespaces (with reduced weight, so that results from them usually appear at the end of the search results). That's possible and was already discussed long time ago, but nobody implemented it. (One more thing that needs direct access to the server or at least the config files.)
Software search would continue as it is...but we considered some problems with that The current implementation of One-Click installs is often dangerous. Because they add all the repos setup in the OBS repo you often end up with crazy things like Factory:ARM repos being added on systems where they are not relevant Furthermore, making it very easy to install packages from 'non-official' repos dramatically reduces the motivation and impetus for developers to put their packages in the Distribution Having packages in the Distribution though is the best way to ensure your package works, is tested, and is integrated So we would like to see One Click only pulling from the official repos If Packages are not in the official repos, we would like the software search to put users in touch with devel project maintainers to encourage the packages be added to the distributions
I understand the goal, but this sounds like it would make things harder for users. Even if a user can encourage a package maintainer to submit a package to the distribution, it can (for Leap) take months until that package is officially available as part of the distribution. That completely breaks the idea of being user-friendly ;-) People who are searching for a package need it *now*, not after a long fight ;-) with the maintainer. I'd guess most of them don't really care if the package comes from the official repo or from home:donttrustme ;-) Counter-proposal: get download statistics (for both one click install and "normal" repo usage) and contact the maintainers of the most popular packages to get those packages added to the distribution. It might also be a good idea to make the download statistics of each package visible on build.o.o.
Provo datacenter has room and bandwidth, but limited admins. SUSE have an engineer moving from Nuremberg to Provo to help illivate that problem.
There's nothing wrong with moving an engeneer to Provo, but for most cases - SSH exists ;-)
Discussed the current wiki problems. Roland volunteered to help drive a solution
I'm *really* looking forward to get this done quickly - ideally in a timeframe like "yesterday" ;-) Regards, Christian Boltz -- martins@apollo:~> telnet titanic.st.bauing.tu-darmstadt.de 25 Trying 130.83.84.100... telnet: connect to address 130.83.84.100: Connection refused "titanic..." nimmt keine Mail an, vermutlich ist der Rechner untergegangen. ;-) [Martin Schmitz in suse-linux] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, On 03/20/2016 02:29 PM, Christian Boltz wrote:
We discussed the shape of how we'd like to see the wiki We all agreed want to see a big tidy up. Many of the Portals have little benefit and serve little purpose. We want to see the namespaces removed/flattened to help the search Please don't confuse the search with the wiki layout ;-) Probably "navigation" is a better word in this context? Software search would continue as it is...but we considered some problems with that The current implementation of One-Click installs is often dangerous. Because they add all the repos setup in the OBS repo you often end up with crazy things like Factory:ARM repos being added on systems where they are not relevant Furthermore, making it very easy to install packages from 'non-official' repos dramatically reduces the motivation and impetus for developers to put their packages in the Distribution Having packages in the Distribution though is the best way to ensure your package works, is tested, and is integrated So we would like to see One Click only pulling from the official repos If Packages are not in the official repos, we would like the software search to put users in touch with devel project maintainers to encourage the packages be added to the distributions I understand the goal, but this sounds like it would make things harder for users. Even if a user can encourage a package maintainer to submit a
Am Sonntag, 20. März 2016, 13:31:18 CET schrieb Richard Brown: package to the distribution, it can (for Leap) take months until that package is officially available as part of the distribution.
That completely breaks the idea of being user-friendly ;-) People who are searching for a package need it *now*, not after a long fight ;-) with the maintainer. I'd guess most of them don't really care if the package comes from the official repo or from home:donttrustme ;-)
Counter-proposal: get download statistics (for both one click install and "normal" repo usage) and contact the maintainers of the most popular packages to get those packages added to the distribution.
It might also be a good idea to make the download statistics of each package visible on build.o.o. [Intro: I'm opensuse user since ~ one month, used debian and linux mint before but have longer experience with them.]
This is also a big topic for ubuntu (called PPAs there) and in general everyone recommends not to use PPAs. Third party sources provide current software, which is not as good tested and stable as software that is available in the official repositories. Thus these repos are only for devs and testers. All others should not use them, this is also what supporters (including me) advice users. There are often problems with third party repos, which could be easily solved for experienced users, but not for normal ones. Additionally, the user hast to trust fully trust the maintainers of all repositories I have activated. This is - at least for me - a big issue. For this reason I yet hesitated to add more repos though I would like to use some software only available there. The packages in official repositories are all aligned, as opposed to unofficial repos. Things can break in unofficial repos, but they should never do so in official ones. You say that users don't care where packages come from. Maybe some, but not all. I, for example, do so. I welcome improvements in this topic, having more software directly in official (default) repositories! Sebastian -- python programming - mail server - photo - video - https://sebix.at cryptographic key at https://sebix.at/DC9B463B.asc and on public keyservers
On 20 March 2016 at 14:29, Christian Boltz
Hello,
Am Sonntag, 20. März 2016, 13:31:18 CET schrieb Richard Brown:
We discussed the shape of how we'd like to see the wiki We all agreed want to see a big tidy up. Many of the Portals have little benefit and serve little purpose. We want to see the namespaces removed/flattened to help the search
Please don't confuse the search with the wiki layout ;-)
I'm not saying that the wiki doesn't need cleanup, but configuring the search is independent on that. For example, instead of searching only some namespaces by default and ignoring everything else, it should be configured to give those namespaces a higher weight, but still search all other namespaces (with reduced weight, so that results from them usually appear at the end of the search results). That's possible and was already discussed long time ago, but nobody implemented it. (One more thing that needs direct access to the server or at least the config files.)
Understood and agreed - writing minutes has a habit of cutting down the details of what was discussed. We actually went into more detail about the other reasons we really dislike the namespaces, such as the complexity it brings..how is a user meant to know what SDB means? or HCL? Namespaces add confusion and raise the barrier of entry to new wiki pages..and we don't think it really helps..too much structure and rules just get in the way..lets keep the wiki simple and easy for everyone to understand and contribute to Once we fixed it that is ;) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hey, On 20.03.2016 15:49, Richard Brown wrote:
too much structure and rules just get in the way..lets keep the wiki simple and easy for everyone to understand and contribute to
You want to go back to the wiki just being a dumping ground for everyone with no rules, no resources whatsoever? Been there, done that. Makes the wiki equally unusable... Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, Thanks for sharing the minutes. Two small comments (since we discussed these in at least one face-to-face meeting a couple of years ago): Le dimanche 20 mars 2016, à 13:31 +0100, Richard Brown a écrit :
Discussed the possibility of the Board appointing a Treasurer to be the primary contact with SUSE on financial matters (Sponsorships, TSP, etc) - Approved
Didn't we have that role already in the past? Our dear Andy was doing that, iirc. Did we just stop this in the meantime? Or was it just that we didn't really pull it off back then? [...]
Discused the possibility of more 'minisummits' consisting of openSUSE presentation tracks and related events colocated at other events around the world - Approved in principle (Needs events and volunteers)
We had identified events for this some years ago; I would assume this is still valid. But of course, we still need volunteers. Anyway, make it happen :-) Cheers, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 20 March 2016 at 21:05, Vincent Untz
Hi,
Thanks for sharing the minutes. Two small comments (since we discussed these in at least one face-to-face meeting a couple of years ago):
Le dimanche 20 mars 2016, à 13:31 +0100, Richard Brown a écrit :
Discussed the possibility of the Board appointing a Treasurer to be the primary contact with SUSE on financial matters (Sponsorships, TSP, etc) - Approved
Didn't we have that role already in the past? Our dear Andy was doing that, iirc. Did we just stop this in the meantime? Or was it just that we didn't really pull it off back then?
Yes, we had the role as an 'in board' role - ie. one of the existing board members was given those tasks in addition to everything else they are doing. And it kind of worked, but i didn't achieve the desired effect of 'offloading' some of those matters from the Board and letting us focus on the matters we're really meant to be dealing with. So this is now something different, an appointed individual who works with/for the Board on matters of money.
[...]
Discused the possibility of more 'minisummits' consisting of openSUSE presentation tracks and related events colocated at other events around the world - Approved in principle (Needs events and volunteers)
We had identified events for this some years ago; I would assume this is still valid. But of course, we still need volunteers. Anyway, make it happen :-)
Yes sir ;) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hey, On 20.03.2016 13:31, Richard Brown wrote:
Tumbleweed deserves a Portal. Questions the page must answer include "What is Tumbleweed?" "Why use Tumbleweed?" and "Why might Leap be better for you?" Leap is similarly important, needing to answer the questions "What is Leap?" "Why use Leap?" and "Why might Tumbleweed be better for you?"
I would strongly suggest that we concentrate on answering these questions with www.opensuse.org, not the wiki. Not many people who want to learn about opensuse will go beyond the landing page. The whole idea to represent the distribution with the main namespace in the wiki has fallen through and should be revised IMHO Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
participants (5)
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Christian Boltz -
Henne Vogelsang -
Richard Brown -
Sebastian -
Vincent Untz