Op woensdag 15 juli 2020 02:11:53 CEST schreef Knurpht-openSUSE:

So board has had to deal with, re. f.e. elections, campaign. have I, so far. Sorry, whilst sending I removed a selection, this shoud read:

So board has had to deal this confidentiality, re. f.e. elections, campaign etc, and given my own p.o.v. on confidentiality so have I, so far. -- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Am 2020-07-15 13:13, schrieb Dan Čermák:

openSUSE community on discord

There's openSUSE on discord? Link please. Cheers MH -- Mathias Homann Mathias.Homann@openSUSE.org telegram: https://telegram.me/lemmy98 irc: [lemmy] on freenode and ircnet obs: lemmy04 gpg key fingerprint: 8029 2240 F4DD 7776 E7D2 C042 6B8E 029E 13F2 C102

Am Mittwoch, 15. Juli 2020, 15:14:36 CEST schrieb Maurizio Galli:

On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 9:12 PM Mathias Homann

wrote:

...

Am 2020-07-15 13:13, schrieb Dan Čermák:

...

openSUSE community on discord

There's openSUSE on discord? Link please.

https://discord.gg/opensuse

d'oh. -- Mathias Homann Mathias.Homann@openSUSE.org OBS: lemmy04 Jabber (XMPP): lemmy@tuxonline.tech IRC: [Lemmy] on freenode and ircnet (bouncer active) telegram: https://telegram.me/lemmy98 keybase: https://keybase.io/lemmy gpg key fingerprint: 8029 2240 F4DD 7776 E7D2 C042 6B8E 029E 13F2 C102

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 I found it much by luck The link to it is at the bottom of [https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication\_channels][https_en.opensuse.org_openSUSE_Communication_channels] It is listed under other methods but it isn't massively obvious unless you go looking for it Robin Sent from ProtonMail mobile \-------- Original Message -------- On 17 Jul 2020, 10:23, Gerald Pfeifer < gp@suse.com> wrote:

On Wed 2020-07-15, Mathias Homann wrote:

...

...

...

There's openSUSE on discord? https://discord.gg/opensuse d'oh.

You raise a good point, Mathias. I knew about the openSUSE Discord channel, but searching for it now

https://www.google.com/search?&q=site%3Aopensuse.org+discord

only offers hits for [build.opensuse.org][] and [software.opensuse.org][] (so packages) on the first page.

I am not sufficiently familiar with our web site/design, and it would be great if one who is could have a look and add that at the appropriate place(s).

Thank you, Gerald

\-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

[https_en.opensuse.org_openSUSE_Communication_channels]: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels [build.opensuse.org]: http://build.opensuse.org [software.opensuse.org]: http://software.opensuse.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: ProtonMail wsFmBAEBCAAQBQJfEW9xCRCfBMG52iOh3wAKCRCfBMG52iOh33o6D/45vFtT Dse+IBZd65bldLLdjQePTZ3LbsRD1HpXmoCwIGFfIVw14+3pPhiSVXEutwL0 rRajcIv/xpZDzUYAkAM8QqvPNUBAsri28/ENM+TRbjE7Sx56PzSAbJlnavPe bNt6JsUSBd/jKbGRwaREJXJUQNZZ1Op2D4W82+RYaeQKYGG3rW4wv3f2NPDq mz0g+XM7y70kpa4iIGLwM/qB69r8Xu1yw7atnxQ+ejxIen89em1BrRJ8DAuF bE2Dai63XO6x9WZKUHZUN9x7L5Zd6tPO9PJMhhuL1SScVBdQKn7/WRTeJ7et dS6lVzpCEoil+P7I+qxYQ3QWJ+zvldFBkWyn5/kf2y/w+DPd4z8EkTE3vYiI VQrnPYdDtlX019Vw62+RM7WGDfMstB1O4smQ0/X7r5m5HQQ/5hGX/hDI1gc2 ThEMXl/4+ub4N4C/2C41KMOLvmJmA0pafy1CTP0NRfo9tgjUMx8c0CMNzl1D ghUKc3+vP3PjAIvsk99TS3ZzMPsrJHEKuQIduJoRaSq2TbvdmdlipG9zMfj7 62OzCmMQ+5IjDyH7tF8vuPJIXBVADUutqHq4A2M89o88UlocBxJdB2uSyJ5f RTLtmsRT/oQQMIuRIwQiedAk6dU9YNlBaII0K0iTMmmuNZwow3IqApq1AQJY lFpRc0KYez1Fp+GGlQ== =4EtR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 01:05, Maximilian Trummer wrote:

It's not a good choice for FOSS communities anyway: https://sneak.berlin/20200220/discord-is-not-an-acceptable-choice-for-free-s...

Discord is sadly still the best option for communities though, IRC, Matrix, Telegram, Slack, RocketChat have various other issues that prevent us from running them exclusively. Matrix is probably the next best thing, but still nowhere near close to it. Let me break it down. Matrix: There is no easy way to manage a group of channels, which makes dealing with any misconduct and subsequent moderation difficult to do [1] Telegram: There is no easy way to promote a group of channels, which makes a lot of communication very off-topic, regardless of the channel topic. + what was mentioned for Matrix IRC: If we ignore the IRCv3, which still isn't ready, IRC doesn't offer us functionality that most users expect from a modern chat protocol, like edits, direct image uploads, presence, server side log etc. + what was mentioned for Telegram Slack & RocketChat: Corporate solutions, meaning they do not have a "network effect" of other aforementioned solutions. People rarely use a chat application for single purpose, unless their livelyhood depends on it. This is something that prevents both from being considered as a communication method for communities. We actually had to deal with the ongoing spam issue on Matrix, so I can guarantee you it would only get worse if any of the above reached the popularity of the openSUSE Discord. Quite obviously we had some spam issues in openSUSE Discord, which made us deploy appropriate tools to deal with the issue. Due to the structure of other chat apps, solutions similar to that are not possible, and I can see how people could easily abuse that. So, unless you have better ideas, I think we might need to keep using Discord ;) LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world [1] We kinda have a solution, which is Matrix <-> Discord bridge, which allows us to do some of the things Discord does and Matrix itself doesn't provide, but as you can guess it kinda requires Discord. Matrix developers are planning some ways to deal with this in spec, but there is nothing concrete yet in the spec, so we will have to wait for that to happen too. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 09:04, Maurizio Galli wrote:

Discord has also an advantage of being popular among younger Linux users and gamers which are both important parts of the Linux community as a whole. I don't think it would be fair to dismiss a community that already exists and is actively involved.

Maybe the most immoral part of Discord happenings is our recruitment of young people to help us out with openSUSE development ;) LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 16:23, Ronan Arraes Jardim Chagas wrote:

Hi!

Just to add to the discussion: have you already thought about Zulip? Julia community is moving from Slack to Zulip and the experience has been very good so far. Furthermore, Zulip is 100% open source, with Apache 2 license.

I very specifically stated why Slack and Slack alternatives like RocketChat and Zulip are a terrible choice for communities, but I can repeat myself: No user will use a chat platform for one community, we either use a centralized platform with split communities concept or a federated approach so we can join into a bigger ecosystem with our own server. We are currently doing both, Discord with centralized approach with guilds as the split communities and Matrix, with federated approach and our matrix.opensuse.org homeserver (also Apache-2.0 licensed btw). If your community doesn't foresee new people to take part in development and you have another way of doing tech support, Slack clones are perfect. However, we are an inclusive community that appreciates input of anybody that is willing to help us, therefore we will empower people to join by not being separated from the rest of the internet. For the same reasons we are looking closely at Pagure, because thanks to the efforts of implementing forgefed, we will be able to easily work with other communities using Pagure, federation is pretty cool ;) LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Am 19. Juli 2020 01:41:23 schrieb Maximilian Trummer :

Thanks for your responses and explanations, Stasiek.

...

No user will use a chat platform for one community From my own experience I know that this is unfortunately true, so I appreciate you connecting also with people on those platforms. I still have objections against Discord in general. But putting it into the context of other proprietary platforms like Twitter and Facebook the use of Discord as an onboarding tool surely is worth it.

As long as we embrace the use of alternatives. vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 5:23 PM Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Wed 2020-07-15, Mathias Homann wrote:

...

...

...

There's openSUSE on discord? https://discord.gg/opensuse d'oh.

You raise a good point, Mathias. I knew about the openSUSE Discord channel, but searching for it now

https://www.google.com/search?&q=site%3Aopensuse.org+discord

only offers hits for build.opensuse.org and software.opensuse.org (so packages) on the first page.

I am not sufficiently familiar with our web site/design, and it would be great if one who is could have a look and add that at the appropriate place(s).

I just did a search and it shows: 2nd place in duckduckgo 4th place in google.com and startpage.com The entry in the results is openSUSE - Discord https://discord.com/invite/opensuse Am I misunderstanding? Best, Maurizio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri 2020-07-17, Maurizio Galli wrote:

...

You raise a good point, Mathias. I knew about the openSUSE Discord channel, but searching for it now

https://www.google.com/search?&q=site%3Aopensuse.org+discord

only offers hits for build.opensuse.org and software.opensuse.org (so packages) on the first page.

I am not sufficiently familiar with our web site/design, and it would be great if one who is could have a look and add that at the appropriate place(s). I just did a search and it shows: 2nd place in duckduckgo 4th place in google.com and startpage.com

The entry in the results is openSUSE - Discord https://discord.com/invite/opensuse

Am I misunderstanding?

Yes. :-) And sorry for not realizing/raising this earlier. What I was looking for (hence the site:opensuse.org as part of the Google query above) is where on our *own* web presence do we refer to our presense in the Discord network. It appears all the top hits I get with that query above are about the discord software in openSUSE distributions or the Build Service. What I hoped (for Google) to find is a page on opensuse.org that says something like "If you want to engage with us directly, please check out our [mailing lists] or meet us in the [forums] or on [discord]". Do you see what I mean? Gerald

On Thu 2020-11-26, Per Jessen wrote:

...

What I hoped (for Google) to find is a page on opensuse.org that says something like "If you want to engage with us directly, please check out our [mailing lists] or meet us in the [forums] or on [discord]". I think https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels might be what you after ?

Yes. Now what I am really after is why Google (and probably others) do not report this when I am even searching for site:opensuse.org ? (Also this page appears comprehensive, but ... overwhelming as in: lots of options, not much guidance.) Gerald

Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Thu 2020-11-26, Per Jessen wrote:

...

...

What I hoped (for Google) to find is a page on opensuse.org that says something like "If you want to engage with us directly, please check out our [mailing lists] or meet us in the [forums] or on [discord]". I think https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels might be what you after ?

Yes. Now what I am really after is why Google (and probably others) do not report this when I am even searching for site:opensuse.org ?

(Also this page appears comprehensive, but ... overwhelming as in: lots of options, not much guidance.)

We only have ourselves to blame :-) Many moons ago, it is was much easier - just subscribe to a mailing list that seems to cover your topic, and you're done. I don't know how easy it would be to provide nuch guidance. Whether you use one or the other channel is mostly about your personal preferences. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (2.8°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes

Mark Stopka wrote:

Good luck convincing zoomers to join mailing lists... they are just not wired that way anymore,

Oh no, I wasn't suggesting we revert to those days, I only wanted to point out that lack of choice made it easier. What you wrote is the problem in a nutshell, people use whatever they prefer, unfortunately thus splitting the community. In the old days, we solved that by bi-directionally gating some of the communications forms.

we are solving exactly this issue at the moment in different OSS project, and all we managed to come up with (majority of community are < millennials (I am millennial) and they want Telegram, Discord,... the most we managed to convince them is to subscribe to few announce-* mailing-lists...

Maybe you have a fairly well-defined community, the majority of members being < 40, but I don't think we have that luxury here.

TL;DR OGs are getting OGed... :)

I have no idea what that means ? I asked my son, age 17, didn't know either :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (2.1°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes

On 27/11/2020 10.04, Maurizio Galli wrote:

On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 10:01:20 +0100 Per Jessen <> wrote:

...

Mark Stopka wrote:

...

...

TL;DR OGs are getting OGed... :)

I have no idea what that means ? I asked my son, age 17, didn't know either :-)

No idea about the first word but...

Too long; didn't read

OG = original gangster / old geezer

:)

-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

Dne pátek 27. listopadu 2020 14:19:54 CET, Mark Stopka napsal(a):

c) agreeing on a set of tools and policies that will empower all demographics to be *somewhat* comfortable and productive at the same time, I just feel that the differences in working styles among these demographics is so wide, that one forcing the other to adapt "their way" is not feasible anymore for growing projects... young people come to OSS for experience, with Discord we give them the feel of Slack - which frankly will probably be something they will be using at their day-job after they finish studies (or who know what will be the new killer app in 5 years), that is the reality, I miss IRC as much as the other guy, but times have changed...

I can agree with You in most of points, I just wonder 1) if You still have a community if there are separated groups of people using incompatible communication tools, and 2) how are You going to coordinate their activities, e.g. on particular project? PS: This discussion makes me feel way tooooo old... :-D -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/ Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/

On Fri, 2020-11-27 at 14:28 +0100, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:

Dne pátek 27. listopadu 2020 14:19:54 CET, Mark Stopka napsal(a):

...

c) agreeing on a set of tools and policies that will empower all demographics to be *somewhat* comfortable and productive at the same time, I just feel that the differences in working styles among these demographics is so wide, that one forcing the other to adapt "their way" is not feasible anymore for growing projects... young people come to OSS for experience, with Discord we give them the feel of Slack - which frankly will probably be something they will be using at their day-job after they finish studies (or who know what will be the new killer app in 5 years), that is the reality, I miss IRC as much as the other guy, but times have changed...

I can agree with You in most of points, I just wonder 1) if You still have a community if there are separated groups of people using incompatible communication tools, and

Absolutely. For decades we've had people who _only_ use the mailinglist or _only_ use IRC or _only_ use the Forums and yet no one has ever suggested that those people are less part of the community. Such a fact doesn't change when the number of platforms increase.

2) how are You going to coordinate their activities, e.g. on particular project?

Coordination is always a fun topic. I think some people on this list expect far more coordination than is necessary (or even appropriate). After all, in a community of volunteers the driving force is not 'what someone else said needs to be done' but what 'individual contributors feel needs to be done'. Even with no coordination at all, stuff will still get done because people willing to give their spare time to the Project will find stuff they want to do. But, with a diverse number of platforms, there's sometimes a benefit to have some coordination efforts reach out to folk on those platforms. That's why you seen Dominique's Tumbleweed reviews going to both mailinglists and blogs for example. That's why you see me tweet and blog and mailinglist-post about Kubic/MicroOS updates. Sure it's a little more work, but helps grease the wheels of this community machine while ensuring we're open to a broader audience who might not enjoy using older platforms.

Hey there, we are dealing with a lot of gamers and they flock towards Discord nowerdays as well. The project (Holarse, a german linux gaming site) is still very bound to IRC. Not to split these groups we have some bridge bots that transfer the communication to irc <-> discord, irc <->XMPP MUC and irc <-> Matrix. Wouldn't be that an option we could join these groups together? Cheers, Bernd Am 27.11.20 um 10:01 schrieb Per Jessen:

Mark Stopka wrote:

...

Good luck convincing zoomers to join mailing lists... they are just not wired that way anymore,

Oh no, I wasn't suggesting we revert to those days, I only wanted to point out that lack of choice made it easier. What you wrote is the problem in a nutshell, people use whatever they prefer, unfortunately thus splitting the community. In the old days, we solved that by bi-directionally gating some of the communications forms.

...

we are solving exactly this issue at the moment in different OSS project, and all we managed to come up with (majority of community are < millennials (I am millennial) and they want Telegram, Discord,... the most we managed to convince them is to subscribe to few announce-* mailing-lists...

Maybe you have a fairly well-defined community, the majority of members being < 40, but I don't think we have that luxury here.

...

TL;DR OGs are getting OGed... :)

I have no idea what that means ? I asked my son, age 17, didn't know either :-)

Am Fr, 27. Nov, 2020 um 10:09 A. M. schrieb Mark Stopka :

We already have Matrix and IRC bridges set-up on most Discord rooms from what I can tell, so from this perspective we are somewhat fine...

IRC bridge is disabled because of some ipv6 firewall issues inside of heroes vpn nobody had the time to debug ;) Telegram and Matrix bridges are working just fine though LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world

On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 10:06:22 +0100 Mark Stopka wrote:

OG = original gangster / old guard :), obviously it was a pun...

we could have a long debate about top-posting vs. bottom-posting, but that already took place on Hacker News 7 years ago... :)

Most people in this list use bottom-posting, I don't care which one we use but please lets stick to ONE or it gets annoying to switch back and forth :). Also assuming this is still relevant: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette -- Maurizio Galli (m4u9) Xfce Team https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Xfce

Q: Are you still using Mutt? (the joke https://twitter.com/LiberalMark/status/1332046821061963783)

A: Yes.

...

Q: Are you sure?

...

A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.

...

Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- Best regards / S pozdravem, BSc. Mark Stopka, BBA

mobile: +420 704 373 561

Morning guys, let me just point out what I have thought was obvious at the time, was specifically talking about the corner-case of replying to the whole thread. -- Best regards / S pozdravem, BSc. Mark Stopka, BBA Managing Partner (at) PERLUR Group mobile: +420 704 373 561 website: www.perlur.cloud

On Thu, 26 Nov 2020 16:35:30 +0100 (CET) Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Fri 2020-07-17, Maurizio Galli wrote:

...

...

You raise a good point, Mathias. I knew about the openSUSE Discord channel, but searching for it now

https://www.google.com/search?&q=site%3Aopensuse.org+discord

only offers hits for build.opensuse.org and software.opensuse.org (so packages) on the first page.

I am not sufficiently familiar with our web site/design, and it would be great if one who is could have a look and add that at the appropriate place(s). I just did a search and it shows: 2nd place in duckduckgo 4th place in google.com and startpage.com

The entry in the results is openSUSE - Discord https://discord.com/invite/opensuse

Am I misunderstanding?

Yes. :-) And sorry for not realizing/raising this earlier.

What I was looking for (hence the site:opensuse.org as part of the Google query above) is where on our *own* web presence do we refer to our presense in the Discord network.

It appears all the top hits I get with that query above are about the discord software in openSUSE distributions or the Build Service.

What I hoped (for Google) to find is a page on opensuse.org that says something like "If you want to engage with us directly, please check out our [mailing lists] or meet us in the [forums] or on [discord]".

Do you see what I mean?

Gerald

Yes, we don't have such thing on the main opensuse.org as far as I can tell and maybe we should. Beside what was already mentioned [1] there are pointers here and there on the scattered wiki pages, like in our Xfce wiki page for example, scrolling down to "Communication: https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Xfce All of this is perhaps not prominent enough to make it SEO. [1]https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels PS: you only sent this to me, was it intentional? Best, Maurizio

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:23, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

You raise a good point, Mathias. I knew about the openSUSE Discord channel, but searching for it now

https://www.google.com/search?&q=site%3Aopensuse.org+discord

only offers hits for build.opensuse.org and software.opensuse.org (so packages) on the first page.

I am not sufficiently familiar with our web site/design, and it would be great if one who is could have a look and add that at the appropriate place(s).

You are in that comfortable position that the moment you became the chairman, I sent you the invite ;) Joking aside, nearly the entire Discord server is bridged with our Matrix community [1], some Telegram channels, and soon with our IRC channels (when we sort out ircs:// connections through proxy), and I hope Uyuni Gitter (and maybe software-o-o Gitter, I just remember that was a thing). Matrix server will have SUSE Community login through our Element [2] and other clients that support SSO login, when I get any response from SUSE-IT on that, it's taking some time though ;) LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world [1] https://matrix.to/#/+rooms:opensuse.org [2] https://chat.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org