El 16/09/10 15:14, Charles Wight escribió:

Please don't feel insulted.

Who you are to ask people to not feel in particular way ?

I have written nothing to degrade your efforts,

Nothing you write will degrade efforts, contrary to your mumblings here, contributions and efforts are _facts_ that are not going away, though your credibility maybe be degraded for spilling FUD.

I have only asked the question: what happens to OpenSUSE if current paid resources are removed?

fact is, that has not happend and I doubt it will.

It could be rephrased: who will pay your salary if Novell does not?

Someone else will. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Please don't feel insulted. I have written nothing to degrade your efforts, unless you find candid discussions of product shortcomings degrading. I have not said anything about anyone's motives other than my own. I have only asked the question: what happens to OpenSUSE if current paid resources are removed? Well, thats a question like "What happens if the sky falls down on the

It could be rephrased: who will pay your salary if Novell does not? Are you going to sneak into head hunting business? Seriously, how could anyone of us know that now? And, as one having been to IT industry for long now, I can tell you that companies are bought now and than. They also might go away, get renamed or whatever. But good ideas and enthusiastic

On Thursday 16 September 2010 21:14:23 Charles Wight wrote: Hi, project?" people stay and do good stuff. And if a project is driven with power, expertise, fun and good results, there will always be others joining in and spend their time and also money on it. And openSUSE is a very prominent project I guess ;-)

These are questions, not statements. Questions nobody can answer.

I can appreciate that these sorts of questions may be uncomfortable. But if the "strategy" wants to attract more contributors, can such questions go unasked? The alignment of corporate/community interests embodied by projects such as OpenSUSE, Fedora, Open Solaris, and others presents unique risks and rewards to both the community and corporate sponsor. As usual, stuff is done by the people who roll up their sleeves and work. Projects and their progress are not made in meeting rooms but on the keyboard.

So if you want to help, as others have already said, do not spread incertitude but go and work: Help the board, find donators for hardware, pizza and stuff, contribute wherever it suits you best, simply make your hands dirty.

...

For someone that hasn't stepped up to help, you are sure talking big... Are you planning on running mail servers, forums, wikis, blogs, build service, etc. The infrastructure is huge and definitely expensive if you think about just the man hours, bandwidth, hardware, and facilities.

"talking big" ... maybe ... I am well aware of the infrastructure required to maintain large software development efforts ... hence the nature of my questions ... what is OpenSUSE less Novell? As an individual interested is supporting free software, is it arrogant to want to know that OpenSUSE - NOVELL > 0.

It is not arrogant, it is waste of time, fun and energy. And as said, even if openSUSE-Novell == 0, openSUSE-Novell+sum( all_of_us ) is much larger than 0.

But MOST IMPORTANT ... PLEASE DO NOT BE INSULTED ... nothing I write here is personal toward anyone.

Ok, than back to work :-) Klaas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 09:08, Trifle Menot wrote:

On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 11:16:55 -0600, Stephen Shaw wrote:

...

For someone that hasn't stepped up to help, you are sure talking big... Are you planning on running mail servers, forums, wikis, blogs, build service, etc.  The infrastructure is huge and definitely expensive if you think about just the man hours, bandwidth, hardware, and facilities.

Consider transitioning in small steps.  Look for servers and bandwidth, but only for small pieces of the project.  Expecting to move the while infrastructure at once, is more than individual contributors can do.

...

So, in the end why don't you pick a project and contribute other than making unfounded accusations and complaints.  I certainly don't like to be told that I'm doing this for the money or that my contributions were worthless before I joined Novell.  I'm sure the others that spent countless hours feel the same.

Some Novell employees are insecure and defensive, and can't tolerate criticism or dissent.  This project will never attract wide support while such attitudes prevail.  Get over yourselves.

I welcome you to leave and start you own distro... Insecure I'm not, but defensive I am. I'm tired of the oh you work for Novell what a lame company, they are idiots, oh you're just in microsoft's pocket crap. Stephen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le vendredi 17 septembre 2010, à 17:30 +0000, John Kelly a écrit :

For opensuse to grow beyond its primary corporate sponsor, Novell and its successor, the project infrastructure must become independent from the sponsor.

Like I said, that's a big pill to swallow. It can't be done all at once. But when there is a will, there is a way. So the question is, can you find the will?

Ah, I tried hard to not participate :-) But I guess I can't resist at 1AM. Why do you think there's no such will? Most people -- and this includes Novell people -- want openSUSE to grow this way. Because it will mean the project is doing good. But that won't happen in one night. The best first step for this is the creation of a Foundation. And it turns out the board is working on that, so... :-) Cheers, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Op 20-09-10 11:52, Henne Vogelsang schreef:

Hi,

openSUSE is the project of the people who participate in it, this is OUR project! You don't get to come here and make us feel bad about what we do. You can't expect us to roll over and take your crap. We won't! Not here, not in OUR project. This stops right here and right now.

And my fellow lizards. Maybe we have forgotten, but let me reassure you: We are supposed to chase off people that don't contribute anything to our community and think they can come here and make us feel bad about what we do.

Just let it slide.... The more attention put onto such, the more damage will be done... Everybody has the right of an own oppinion, as we all do. An opiniion will not be able to destroy work, as long as you/we/us will not tolerate it to do so..

If we don't they will slowly destroy what we have build in the last couple of years and we can't let that happen! It can't be that people loose the nerve to participate because they constantly have to take shit on our own communication channels.

I myself also do not understand why ppl keep shitting all over other ppl...(but i've seen on the internet that there are ppl who seem to rely like it, to shit on other ppl, and to be shit on.. ;-)

It can't be that people don't belong to our project decide our fate.

This has to stop and we have to MAKE this stop!

Henne

-- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (M9.) (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.34-12-desktop x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.3 (x86_64) KDE: 4.4.4 (KDE 4.4.4) "release 2" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Op 20-09-10 12:39, Henne Vogelsang schreef:

Hey,

On 9/20/10 12:06 PM, Oddball wrote:

...

Op 20-09-10 11:52, Henne Vogelsang schreef:

...

And my fellow lizards. Maybe we have forgotten, but let me reassure you: We are supposed to chase off people that don't contribute anything to our community and think they can come here and make us feel bad about what we do.

Just let it slide.... The more attention put onto such, the more damage will be done... Everybody has the right of an own oppinion, as we all do. An opiniion will not be able to destroy work, as long as you/we/us will not tolerate it to do so..

That's the thing, I think that letting it slide has come to the point where it hurts our project more than it helps. I'm perfectly aware that this is aggravating but I think we have to stress this.

And yes everyone has the right to an opinion but that does not mean you have the right to voice it. If I walk by someone on the street who wears a pink shirt and too much cologne I don't say to them "You stink and the way you dress, awful!" just because I think so.

Shows just that you're a decent person...no? And it is all personal taste and favour, that is why the world is so colourfull... But believe me or not, it will not help to loose your temper. Teach ppl some manors has never hurt someone though... ;-) Maybe better make an appointment and beat the shit out of them! That will teach them... or just block the e-mailaddresses from the list? Unwanted solicitors..

...

...

If we don't they will slowly destroy what we have build in the last couple of years and we can't let that happen! It can't be that people loose the nerve to participate because they constantly have to take shit on our own communication channels.

I myself also do not understand why ppl keep shitting all over other ppl...(but i've seen on the internet that there are ppl who seem to rely like it, to shit on other ppl, and to be shit on.. ;-)

True, but opensuse-project is not the internet. Its the communication medium of the people who work on openSUSE. Time to take it back!

Do whatever you feel is nessesary.

Henne

-- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (M9.) (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.34-12-desktop x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.3 (x86_64) KDE: 4.4.4 (KDE 4.4.4) "release 2" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 09/17/2010 10:08 AM, Trifle Menot wrote:

Some Novell employees are insecure and defensive, and can't tolerate criticism or dissent. This project will never attract wide support while such attitudes prevail. Get over yourselves.

As the brits like to say ..... here, here! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 22 September 2010 09:39:46 Will Stephenson wrote:

On Friday 17 September 2010 18:28:59 Charles Wight wrote:

...

On 09/17/2010 10:08 AM, Trifle Menot wrote:

...

Some Novell employees are insecure and defensive, and can't tolerate criticism or dissent. This project will never attract wide support while such attitudes prevail. Get over yourselves.

As the brits like to say ..... here, here!

That would be "hear, hear", old fruit.

Not that I agree with "Trifle"'s assertion that any dissent should be tolerated. Criticism that comes from armchair project leaders who only pop up when there's a flamewar can safely be ignored.

At the same time they can do damage (eg people who don't know them don't know how to weight their input or by being an ass towards good contributors). So, while as long as they obey the reasonable rules of behaviour we have they can surely hang around, there is no reason at all why we can't point out that it's all talk and no work. Talk is cheap, ideas are easy - work is what counts; that's the Free Software culture, it has gotten us this far; and we should make that clear to everyone. Anyone saying "ah bah, I don't like this attitude of openSUSE" should have a look at the biggest (and arguably most successful) FOSS community - the Linux Kernel. The ultimate "show me the code or fuck off" attitude you'll ever see. Not that I advocate mimicking it, it ain't a very friendly place - but it DOES get work done. openSUSE is, like all Free Software communities, a meritocracy. You EARN the right to speak up (influence) by proving yourself valuable. If you don't contribute, who the f*** are you that we should listen? We're not a company - where managers get appointed to a position because they had the right papers and contacts and get paid well - here, those who actually KNOW what they are talking about are in charge. When we need input from others (like users) we ask for it (eg see the openSUSE users survey). -project is a development list. So those who speak here are contributors - or rather, should be. If you answer questions on the forums, write articles for news.o.o, are an artist for openSUSE, packager, developer - it doesn't matter WHAT you do, you're part of those who make decisions. Nothing, however, is not enough. And opinions we have plenty, so no, giving those is not a contribution, sorry. I don't want to be harsh but in my opinion this thread is going in the wrong direction and I want to make clear where I stand when it comes to those talking on this list. While being friendly is good, we should also be clear. I KNOW there are people here who contribute far more than some of the noisy people here, yet are too humble to speak up. I want to hear THEIR voices instead of some "armchair project leaders", as Will calls 'em. Cheers, Jos

Will

(mail is late, somehow my mail client fscked it up) On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Administrator wrote:

...

At the same time they can do damage (eg people who don't know them don't know how to weight their input or by being an ass towards good contributors). So, while as long as they obey the reasonable rules of behaviour we have they can surely hang around, there is no reason at all why we can't point out that it's all talk and no work. Talk is cheap, ideas are easy - work is what counts; that's the Free Software culture, it has gotten us this far; and we should make that clear to everyone.

This would argue for having some "counter" against people's profiles for the quantity of their results: code contributed; packages or builds managed; articles published; etc.  We not need censorship, but a quick indicator of someone's "value" to the community would help.

Hmmm, that is surely one way of doing it - but also a way I personally dislike and I know most do so too. Other projects mostly don't need it - eg KDE and GNOME. Most people active in openSUSE and other communities work in teams. Within those teams it is often quite clear what the 'pecking order' is - you follow each other's commits and know how experienced someone is.

...

Anyone saying "ah bah, I don't like this attitude of openSUSE" should have a look at the biggest (and arguably most successful) FOSS community - the Linux Kernel. The ultimate "show me the code or fuck off" attitude you'll ever see. Not that I advocate mimicking it, it ain't a very friendly place - but it DOES get work done.

The kernel is distinctly different to OS: (correct & useful) code is the delivered value for the kernel and a distribution is a lot more complex.  Is it measured by users introduced?  Documentation and support delivered? "Polish" to add useability?

You don't have to measure the whole but the contributions. And documentation, support, code and packages are all contributions - opinions and ideas often are not. Note I say often - things aren't black and white here, I sometimes greatly appreciate ideas from experienced people.

...

openSUSE is, like all Free Software communities, a meritocracy. You EARN the right to speak up (influence) by proving yourself valuable. If you don't contribute, who the f*** are you that we should listen? We're not a company - where managers get appointed to a position because they had the right papers and contacts and get paid well - here, those who actually KNOW what they are talking about are in charge. When we need input from others (like users) we ask for it (eg see the openSUSE users survey).

I don't see anyone in charge, and if it's a meritocracy, I don't see any method by which people's value is assessed, assigned or displayed.  It looks more like a Sociocracy to me.

Oh, it's a murky process, I know. Take Aaron Seigo from KDE or Dave Neary, GNOME. Do they have an official position? No, but by their work and commitment over the years they have proven themselves and they are universally recognized for that. As I wrote earlier, most work is done in smallish teams. For example those working on li-f-e know each other and have a pretty good idea who their most influential team members are. No, they don't have an 'score' or a title, but is that needed? I don't think so.

...

-project is a development list. So those who speak here are contributors - or rather, should be. If you answer questions on the forums, write articles for news.o.o, are an artist for openSUSE, packager, developer - it doesn't matter WHAT you do, you're part of those who make decisions. Nothing, however, is not enough. And opinions we have plenty, so no, giving those is not a contribution, sorry.

You're writing off the contribution that people with experience but little time (like me) have.  I contribute to the lists because I've used SuSE since 6.2 and have a lot of experience designing, developing, implementing, managing and using (computer) systems.  I contribute my "opinions" because I've seen too many occasions when lessons learned years ago are ignored and the same mistakes repeated.

Well, then, let me make this a bit more grey. You are surely right in that experience and input can be valuable. What I am talking about in terms of useless contributions are people coming to a list saying "hey, I'm a XXX professional. I had a look at what you do and can tell you it's all wrong. You must do this and this!". Well, I can tell you - that's something nobody is waiting for. It's condecending and annoying. Black. If such a person however comes and sais, "hey, I think it'd be great if this and this could be done, I started some work on that, anyone interested in helping" then he/she might get something done, make a difference. White. Now the grey part: you. And I'm just taking your word for what you said, as I don't know you. So someone proposes to do something - then you can say, because you've been around for a long time: "hey, we tried that but it didn't work because of X. You might want to try Y." Now that IS an useful contribution, I don't deny that. However part of the problem is that people often think their experience is much more useful than it actually is... If I got a nickel for every super-duper obvious comment from someone who has no clue but thinks he/she's the smartest person on the list I'd be rich. (not talking about this list, btw, you all know I've been here for 6 weeks only - but I've been around in FOSS a little longer and we had these peeps come in to the different KDE lists I was on regularly)

...

I don't want to be harsh but in my opinion this thread is going in the wrong direction and I want to make clear where I stand when it comes to those talking on this list. While being friendly is good, we should also be clear. I KNOW there are people here who contribute far more than some of the noisy people here, yet are too humble to speak up. I want to hear THEIR voices instead of some "armchair project leaders", as Will calls 'em.

You should be clear about what "contribution", "merit", "community", "value" mean before excluding (or promoting) people's voices.

You are right, these things should be explained a bit more - although a dictionairy and wikipedia can already get pretty far. Still don't you think it's obvious enough for most part? Anyone who's been involved in a community knows these terms and what they mean in general...

We've recently watched a painful strategy process which seemed to be creating fog not light.  Perhaps a good start would be clarity about what these words mean.  Perhaps OS's "product" (offered value to the world) is the community and infrastructure supporting that, and not the distribution?

Maybe, maybe. But I think that would be a discussion you surely can't do over a mailinglist - it would need a face to face meeting as it's just a matter too complicated for a limited-bandwith communication channel like mail (or IRC or even phone). If you or anyone wants to discuss this (I guess some marketing peeps might have strong feelings too), the openSUSE conf might be the perfect place.

David

...

Jos

...

Will

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On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 5:09 AM, Thomas Hertweck wrote:

On 24/09/10 10:28, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

[...] openSUSE is, like all Free Software communities, a meritocracy. You EARN the right to speak up (influence) by proving yourself valuable. If you don't contribute, who the f*** are you that we should listen? We're not a company - where managers get appointed to a position because they had the right papers and contacts and get paid well - here, those who actually KNOW what they are talking about are in charge. When we need input from others (like users) we ask for it (eg see the openSUSE users survey).

I find your statement quite ironical. You haven't contributed to SuSE or openSUSE in the past (at least not directly), now you are being *paid* to work on Linux (openSUSE) the whole day, and you have been *appointed* the community manager. You get the picture? I work in the industry and your statement that (project) managers in companies just get their jobs because they know the right people and there's a lot of money involved and otherwise they don't have a clue is absolutely appalling. I would really like to know what your fellow Novell project managers think about such an opinion.

...

-project is a development list. So those who speak here are contributors - or rather, should be. If you answer questions on the forums, write articles for news.o.o, are an artist for openSUSE, packager, developer - it doesn't matter WHAT you do, you're part of those who make decisions. Nothing, however, is not enough. And opinions we have plenty, so no, giving those is not a contribution, sorry.

I agree with David on this one. You devalue thousands of contributions! There are a lot of people out there who don't have the luxury to be paid to work on Linux like you are. There are people out there who have not much time to contribute in form of RPM packaging etc, but they have great experience with Linux or software development or project management in general. Providing ideas and opinions *is* a contribution to openSUSE!

Thomas

I can see both sides of the "opinion" argument. I contribute in various ways, but I feel my opinions are some of my best contributions. I think my most valuable opinions are those formalized via openfate. So I certainly hope activity in openFate qualifies as a contribution. fyi: Jos, openFate doesn't yet seem to work very well from my volunteer contributor perspective. I'm glad that as of a few months ago the newsletter has new openfate entries in it, but even with that there is not enough transparency into the process. As an example, a month ago I submitted: https://features.opensuse.org/310405# It has 8 positive votes, 1 neutral vote, 0 negative votes and 1 comment. That is the sum of my knowledge. Is it moving forward? Has it even been looked at by someone who might implement it? By someone who could allocate resources? etc.? How is the resource allocation decision made? ie. Novell has provided man power to create yast2-wagon. Will they help to see it more fully integrated? If a positive "go" decision were made, where would it be noted? fyi: I've made other proposals that seemed to cause new features to be added to the release, but no acknowledgment that my feedback was influential in the process. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hi, On 9/26/10 11:09 AM, Thomas Hertweck wrote:

On 24/09/10 10:28, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

[...] openSUSE is, like all Free Software communities, a meritocracy. You EARN the right to speak up (influence) by proving yourself valuable.

I find your statement quite ironical. You haven't contributed to SuSE or openSUSE in the past (at least not directly), now you are being *paid* to work on Linux (openSUSE) the whole day, and you have been *appointed* the community manager. You get the picture?

I don't. He has contributed since he got hired right? That's the only thing that counts. Who cares if he get's payed, by whom, as long as he contributes right? Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE http://www.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

I do not think anybody gets sour here... People just try to clarify certain principles. Jos statement about meritocracy was a little bit over the top... for exactly the reasons that Thomas pointed out. (prior contribution to the project is not always necessary in order to get into it). defining what contribution means is totally crucial. Getting exactly the same approach as the kernel may be too restrictive and can prove counter productive, my opinion and why not against the principles that opensuse already has (see openfate mechanism). We risk to alienate the community if we start to apply the rule: the ones who do the work know better. A simple look into the history of social organisation and you will see that this route does not lead to meritocracy. This rule gave good results for the kernel due to high specialisation needed to understand, use and contribute to it. The same may apply for servers. Having that in mind we still need to remember that we depend on sponsors and always will. Our sponsor at the moment is interest in the server market more than the desktop one. That is a certitude. This makes a lot of the people in our community frustrated and they are leaving towards other distros that is a consequence. regards, Alin 2010/9/27 Karsten König :

Am Montag, 27. September 2010, 12:30:04 schrieb Henne Vogelsang:

...

Hi,

On 9/26/10 11:09 AM, Thomas Hertweck wrote:

...

On 24/09/10 10:28, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

[...] openSUSE is, like all Free Software communities, a meritocracy. You EARN the right to speak up (influence) by proving yourself valuable.

I find your statement quite ironical. You haven't contributed to SuSE or openSUSE in the past (at least not directly), now you are being *paid* to work on Linux (openSUSE) the whole day, and you have been *appointed* the community manager. You get the picture?

I don't. He has contributed since he got hired right? That's the only thing that counts. Who cares if he get's payed, by whom, as long as he contributes right?

Henne

You can't understand people get a sour taste here? We are trying to get people to contribute for 'free' to opensuse and overnight somebody gets hired who didn't have big ties before and becomes a key person in opensuse community.

Cheers, Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-- Without Questions there are no Answers! _____________________________________________________________________ Alin Marin ELENA Advanced Molecular Simulation Research Laboratory School of Physics, University College Dublin ---- Ardionsamblú Móilíneach Saotharlann Taighde Scoil na Fisice, An Coláiste Ollscoile, Baile Átha Cliath ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Address: Room 318, UCD Engineering and Material Science Centre University College Dublin Belfield, Dublin 4, Ireland ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://alin.elenaworld.net alin.elena@ucdconnect.ie, alinm.elena@gmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 27/09/2010 20:30, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

Hi,

On 9/26/10 11:09 AM, Thomas Hertweck wrote:

...

On 24/09/10 10:28, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

[...] openSUSE is, like all Free Software communities, a meritocracy. You EARN the right to speak up (influence) by proving yourself valuable.

I find your statement quite ironical. You haven't contributed to SuSE or openSUSE in the past (at least not directly), now you are being *paid* to work on Linux (openSUSE) the whole day, and you have been *appointed* the community manager. You get the picture?

I don't. He has contributed since he got hired right? That's the only thing that counts. Who cares if he get's payed, by whom, as long as he contributes right?

Can you please clearly define what YOU mean by "as long as he *CONTRIBUTES*.." Does your definition mean that a person contributes if they only make statements which don't put the Novell product in a bad light or criticises/questions the Novell product? If this is the case then all the people over the years who have make comments about the product because they have seen the direction the product was going, and expressed their concerns, have not made a contribution and therefore have wasted their time and effort? And what about the last Community Manager? After only 12 months he saw the writing on the wall, didn't he? Why did he go? Where is he now? And the new Community Manager. Royal Bank of Scotland, eh? RBS. Now where have I heard this name in the past year or so when the Global Financial Crisis came about in the last 3 years, hmm? Only asking, only asking...... I realise that you have all the necessary answers based on "in-depth" information to answer my floundering and inept questions. Indulge others, and me, by giving your spin on "contributes", please. BC -- Sound that shatters silence is called noise. Sound that enhances silence is called music. Chinese proverb -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 9:30 PM, Thomas Hertweck wrote:

On 27/09/10 11:30, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

[...] I don't. He has contributed since he got hired right? That's the only thing that counts. Who cares if he get's payed, by whom, as long as he contributes right?

Sorry, Henne, I appreciate all the work you do and you have my utmost respect for all the contributions you make to openSUSE, but I disagree with you on that one here. Karsten and others have summarized it nicely.

If it was all that easy to come up with good ideas and so on, everybody would be able to do it. However, obviously it isn't easy in reality, that's why companies like Apple can make a fortune with their innovations.

There are ideas and ideas. I would say the biggest limitation we have is not ideas and creativity - we have good people working on cool things with all the freedom they need to express that creativity. Apple's design is done by a team of about 10, maybe 15 designers. Brilliant designers for sure, but I would claim that the combined creativity of all openSUSE people is about as good if not better. Unfortunately we don't have the resources to do what Apple does. But looking at for example KDE and GNOME - they are approaching Apple in many area's. Surely not everywhere, but they do what they do with a very small percentage of the resources.

I fully agree with you that we need people doing the actual work that needs to be done, but excluding opinions and not allowing people to voice their ideas and critics is going the wrong way. After all, a lot of ideas are born through discussions. To give a little example: A society couldn't live with academics only, you definitely need some workers, too. However, a society would also have problems to evolve if there were only workers, and no academics. That's why my personal opinion is that you probably need both. At the moment, we seem to have a clash in the openSUSE community between these two parts. Workers probably don't count the contributions of academics as valuable (I would probably put you in that category), and academics perhaps think the workers' contributions are somewhat overrated. At the end of the day, we need both, it's as simple as that.

Ok, you are right. We need to have a certain signal-noise level, however. Good ideas can be drowned in flames and useless discussions. A solution for this that I like a lot is http://forum.kde.org/brainstorm And note that 'the workers' you describe also have plenty of ideas and creativity - often more than they can even accomplish in their free time, so they might not even be looking for much more ideas...

Many people may not have the time to contribute in form of packaging RPMs, writing software, writing Wiki articles etc. But their daily life as programmer, manager, software engineer, you name it, in a commercial or non-commercial environment may help all of us to see what might work in openSUSE or not. If developers who don't contribute to openSUSE come and say, "oooh, I would be careful making those changes, we have done something similar in our company and you may run into certain problems", then I would say that's very valuable input to openSUSE and we should definitely listen, even if those developers don't actually contribute to openSUSE in the way you define it.

Sure. I clarified myself later on, I was a bit too black and white indeed...

That's also how I see some of the discussions regarding the "community transition" - I am sure not all of us like these discussions, some may think they are completely useless, but maybe something good will come out at the end. It's the project mailing list here, and if some people are worried about certain things, they should be allowed to mention it. If people are unhappy that mailing lists etc are unreliable in America or so (I think I saw a statement like that somewhere), then you shouldn't take this personal and as an affront against Novell, a company providing this service for free, but as an inquiry to see what could perhaps be improved. Behind all the critics is usually a valid point - it may be hard to find at times, but that doesn't mean silencing all critics (as your current approach seems to be from my perspective) is the best way forward. We just need to find the right balance.

I pointed out two distinct problems I had with Jos statement. He stated that leaders within a group usually evolve through the work they do and through their contributions to the group and that only such people have a right to voice their opinions.

Please note that I was quite a bit more liberal - I said anyone who contributed should be listened to. Anyone can voice their opinion, I would however say it's not always helping nor interesting to listen to. Some people just flame and complain and many people underestimate the damage that can do. Just like they underestimate the good it does to someone if he/she hears 'nice work!' sometimes.

If you can't see my point that this is a strange statement from somebody who hasn't been part of that group in the past and who was appointed this job and who gets paid for it... well, then I can't really help. It seems as if others got that point. The second statement he made I took personally. I cite the statement again: "We're not a company - where managers get appointed to a position because they had the right papers and contacts and get paid well - here, those who actually KNOW what they are talking about are in charge." What he's saying here is that (project) managers in the industry have no clue how things work, they are only in charge because they had the necessary network of people to support them and the right references and a lot of money was involved. As a representative of that group (Head of Research & Development in a large company) who works very hard to stay on top of all research and development aspects in order to make the best decisions, you didn't expect me to sit back and just swallow such an offence, did you? I think the openSUSE project could definitely learn a couple of things from the commercial environment.

He. I must admit that statement was quite strong - and I've met plenty managers who were pretty good. But I've also met some who were less good and that is an understatement. I bet you and everyone else here who have worked in bigger companies have seen the same. Politics often become a big part of large organizations and bad decisions (from a technical and often even business pov) get made by people who don't even know what it really is about. Or they do and know the decision will cost their company money, but it will be better for their position. I wouldn't even want to claim it's always due to the people - it seems very much a process issue as well. Misalignment between personal and corporate priorities for example. And in any case, hierarchy means middle and esp senior management is far from the work being done, hence have to rely on others to give them information. And that information is often colored or just plain wrong. Information from people, or from numbers that don't say as much as management might think they say. Sometimes, the complexity of large organizations itself is at fault - or the complexity of the technology. In most open source communities, the structure is far more flat. People usually have influence because others give it to them - like the 'benevolent dictatorship' Linus Torvalds has. And people give this influence because of what they see others do - and in an open community, where most stuff is done publicly and on record (eg mailinglists) this is pretty likely to be quite accurate. Things still go wrong but I would claim that usually influential people in FOSS are rightfully in that position. So I'm sorry if this offended you - I certainly would not claim managers suck. It's just that sometimes, they get away with it in companies. Much harder to do in an open source community. And that is a big plus for us. point in case: I was admittedly in a bit of a bad mood when I wrote some of the mails I send in this thread. Well, I got called out on it and rightly so. In a company, it's possible that due to my position, people wouldn't have done so. Which would've been bad. Anyway. Apologies for all hurt feelings, that was not my intention. Really, I'm a nice guy after a beer or two... ;-)

Regards, Thomas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 28. September 2010, 12:00:59 schrieb Henne Vogelsang:

Hey Thomas,

On 27.09.2010 21:30, Thomas Hertweck wrote:

...

On 27/09/10 11:30, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

[...] I don't. He has contributed since he got hired right? That's the only thing that counts. Who cares if he get's payed, by whom, as long as he contributes right?

Sorry, Henne, I appreciate all the work you do and you have my utmost respect for all the contributions you make to openSUSE, but I disagree with you on that one here.

I am talking about you telling Jos that his opinion counts less (to the point where you find it ironic) because he's not an old-timer and gets payed for it (please mind what i quoted and what not) and I strongly disagree with it. Jos got hired and immediately jumped into a couple of topics with both feet. No need to question his dedication to our project.

I found he was saying Jos statement was quite bold with respect to him beeing only in the project for a short time and then also beeing paid. I didn't find him saying Jos oppinion is evaluated by time on the project. I also don't think he questioned his dedication. Otherwise I disagree with him btw, I do feel that it should matter how much a person has activly contributed. Put your money where your mouth is, don't just do clever talking.

I am neither talking about if voicing ideas is allowed or not or if managers (I am one myself!) are good or bad. Of course you can voice your opinion and of course it's a valuable contribution and of course "management" is needed in any serious organization.

Please don't make this about something that it isn't. Thanks

Henne

Cheers, Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hey, On 28.09.2010 20:13, Thomas Hertweck wrote:

Anyway, the situation has been clarified, Jos has explained what happened, so no hard feelings and let's get on with more important things.

Please! :) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org