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Mark Stopka

20 Dec 2020 20 Dec '20

13:13

$SUBJECT, someone should share the memo with Stefan... - https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/856976 - https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/856971 He apparently feels a sole gatekeeper of a project that has 74 packages in total, 9 failing, 7 unresolvable including 2 years old verilator that is linked to Factory... Good luck taking on CentOS with this attitude, EDA space is not where openSUSE can shine if community members act like they need to protect their tiny projects, I have requested a separate OBS project for ASIC and FPGA EDA effort, and was told to use electronics, so make up your mind... The facepalm is intended for a person on a BCC... 🤦‍♂️ Question: What can SUSE help you with to grow the community? Not to place roadblocks in my way... I'd Stefan is such a roadblock, so perhaps board@ can start removing community roadblocks also, I am not facing any roadblocks from SUSE at this point. He rejected a valid version update of a package which is not even linked to Factory or any upstream, yet provided 0 specific issues with the request... -- Best regards / S pozdravem, BSc. Mark Stopka, BBA Managing Partner (at) PERLUR Group mobile: +420 704 373 561 website: www.perlur.cloud

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Neal Gompa

20 Dec 20 Dec

14:11

On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 8:14 AM Mark Stopka wrote:

...

$SUBJECT, someone should share the memo with Stefan...

- https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/856976 - https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/856971

He apparently feels a sole gatekeeper of a project that has 74 packages in total, 9 failing, 7 unresolvable including 2 years old verilator that is linked to Factory...

While I agree that an SR to bump versions is fair game, your attitude to the maintainer is reprehensible. Suggesting incompetence to the maintainer is not how you get them to work with you.

...

Good luck taking on CentOS with this attitude, EDA space is not where openSUSE can shine if community members act like they need to protect their tiny projects, I have requested a separate OBS project for ASIC and FPGA EDA effort, and was told to use electronics, so make up your mind...

Why do you think we want to do it the way you're proposing? For what it's worth, if you tried to gaslight me for my devel project like you're doing to Stefan now, then I would *definitely* never want to help you.

...

The facepalm is intended for a person on a BCC... 🤦‍♂️

This is unnecessary and leaves me feeling like there's some kind of inside joke I'm missing...

...

Question: What can SUSE help you with to grow the community? Not to place roadblocks in my way... I'd Stefan is such a roadblock, so perhaps board@ can start removing community roadblocks also, I am not facing any roadblocks from SUSE at this point. He rejected a valid version update of a package which is not even linked to Factory or any upstream, yet provided 0 specific issues with the request...

What would SUSE have to do with this? This is openSUSE, run and governed by the community. And speaking of community, if I were on the board, I wouldn't lift a finger to help you with the attitude you're demonstrating. You don't automatically get a free pass to do whatever just like that. Maintainership isn't just about doing the work, it's about cooperating with others for the good of the community. You are currently not demonstrating either. We have ways to do conflict resolution, this isn't it. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

Mark Stopka

16:03

On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 3:11 PM Neal Gompa wrote:

...

On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 8:14 AM Mark Stopka wrote:

...
$SUBJECT, someone should share the memo with Stefan...

- https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/856976 - https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/856971

He apparently feels a sole gatekeeper of a project that has 74 packages in total, 9 failing, 7 unresolvable including 2 years old verilator that is linked to Factory...

While I agree that an SR to bump versions is fair game, your attitude to the maintainer is reprehensible. Suggesting incompetence to the maintainer is not how you get them to work with you.

...
Good luck taking on CentOS with this attitude, EDA space is not where openSUSE can shine if community members act like they need to protect their tiny projects, I have requested a separate OBS project for ASIC and FPGA EDA effort, and was told to use electronics, so make up your mind...

Why do you think we want to do it the way you're proposing?

I'll bite, what is your alternative, I proposed 2 different separate projects...

...

For what it's worth, if you tried to gaslight me for my devel project like you're doing to Stefan now, then I would *definitely* never want to help you.

"my devel project" - it is not his devel project, he takes care of a few packages, then there are other maintainers who abandoned the project, one of which was maintaining Yosis which this request was updating.

...

...
The facepalm is intended for a person on a BCC... 🤦‍♂️

This is unnecessary and leaves me feeling like there's some kind of inside joke I'm missing...

Yes, it is some kind of inside joke you are missing, just like the below, so it makes no sense to react to it further... apart from

...

We have ways to do conflict resolution, this isn't it.

Because repeatedly with no reasonable justification rejecting requests for access to a project you are a CO-MAINTAINER, not OWNER is, as well as rejecting update requests for a package that was not touched in 4 years by anybody else without any meaningful justification either.

...

...
Question: What can SUSE help you with to grow the community? Not to place roadblocks in my way... I'd Stefan is such a roadblock, so perhaps board@ can start removing community roadblocks also, I am not facing any roadblocks from SUSE at this point. He rejected a valid version update of a package which is not even linked to Factory or any upstream, yet provided 0 specific issues with the request...

What would SUSE have to do with this? This is openSUSE, run and governed by the community. And speaking of community, if I were on the board, I wouldn't lift a finger to help you with the attitude you're demonstrating. You don't automatically get a free pass to do whatever just like that. Maintainership isn't just about doing the work, it's about cooperating with others for the good of the community. You are currently not demonstrating either.

-- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

Stefan Brüns

16:44

On Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2020 17:03:49 CET Mark Stopka wrote:

...

On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 3:11 PM Neal Gompa wrote:

...
We have ways to do conflict resolution, this isn't it.

Because repeatedly with no reasonable justification rejecting requests for access to a project you are a CO-MAINTAINER, not OWNER is, as well as rejecting update requests for a package that was not touched in 4 years by anybody else without any meaningful justification either.

I gave justification several times. Everyone can submit requests, not just maintainers, so while not being a maintainer you can still contribute. Maintainers role is curating, and for this you have to know packaging policies. A newcomer should show they are knowing these rules, and this can be done by doing proper SRs. I asked you nicely to first show your capabilities for maintainership, and instead of doing so you became more and more aggresive. Stefan -- Stefan Brüns

Mark Stopka

17:14

On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 5:45 PM Stefan Brüns wrote:

...

On Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2020 17:03:49 CET Mark Stopka wrote:

...
On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 3:11 PM Neal Gompa wrote:

...
We have ways to do conflict resolution, this isn't it.

Because repeatedly with no reasonable justification rejecting requests for access to a project you are a CO-MAINTAINER, not OWNER is, as well as rejecting update requests for a package that was not touched in 4 years by anybody else without any meaningful justification either.

I gave justification several times. Everyone can submit requests, not just maintainers, so while not being a maintainer you can still contribute.

Maintainers role is curating, and for this you have to know packaging policies. A newcomer should show they are knowing these rules, and this can be done by doing proper SRs.

I asked you nicely to first show your capabilities for maintainership, and instead of doing so you became more and more aggresive.

You asked, and I told you where to look, but you haven't looked, now have you? And again, where have you shown this guidance regarding the Yosys SR? Except for the snort of a 5 y.o. - "There is more to maintenance than just bumping the version.", which openSUSE Packaging guidelines controls are violated, or rather, as you pointed out, it is just a bump in a version, which NEW violations of such controls does the SR that you have rejected introduces?

...

Stefan

-- Stefan Brüns

Mark Stopka

20:17

Given the "discussion & support" here, it is hilarious how openSUSE (or SUSE) is missing in these documents referenced by Tim who is driving SymbiFlow and Google SkyWater PDK free shuttle runs for open-source hardware[1]... Adding @Jan Pleskac, who in the end is the consumer of the proposed "products", hopefully with a much wider community in the future... https://github.com/tropicsquare/tassic/discussions/1#discussioncomment-22774... [1] https://github.com/google/skywater-pdk/ On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 6:14 PM Mark Stopka wrote:

...

On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 5:45 PM Stefan Brüns wrote:

...
On Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2020 17:03:49 CET Mark Stopka wrote:

...
On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 3:11 PM Neal Gompa wrote:

...
We have ways to do conflict resolution, this isn't it.

Because repeatedly with no reasonable justification rejecting requests for access to a project you are a CO-MAINTAINER, not OWNER is, as well as rejecting update requests for a package that was not touched in 4 years by anybody else without any meaningful justification either.

I gave justification several times. Everyone can submit requests, not just maintainers, so while not being a maintainer you can still contribute.

Maintainers role is curating, and for this you have to know packaging policies. A newcomer should show they are knowing these rules, and this can be done by doing proper SRs.

I asked you nicely to first show your capabilities for maintainership, and instead of doing so you became more and more aggresive.

You asked, and I told you where to look, but you haven't looked, now have you? And again, where have you shown this guidance regarding the Yosys SR? Except for the snort of a 5 y.o. - "There is more to maintenance than just bumping the version.", which openSUSE Packaging guidelines controls are violated, or rather, as you pointed out, it is just a bump in a version, which NEW violations of such controls does the SR that you have rejected introduces?

...
Stefan

-- Stefan Brüns

Atri Bhattacharya

21:45

On Sun, 2020-12-20 at 09:11 -0500, Neal Gompa wrote:

...

On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 8:14 AM Mark Stopka wrote:

...
$SUBJECT, someone should share the memo with Stefan...

- https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/856976 - https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/856971

He apparently feels a sole gatekeeper of a project that has 74 packages in total, 9 failing, 7 unresolvable including 2 years old verilator that is linked to Factory...

While I agree that an SR to bump versions is fair game, your attitude to the maintainer is reprehensible. Suggesting incompetence to the maintainer is not how you get them to work with you.

Neil, That's harsh, especially since rather worse -- in my opinion anyway -- is the maintainer's response while declining the sr in [1], being needlessly domineering and discouraging towards the volunteer caring enough to submit an update. Sure, there are issues with the sr, but the reviewer could point that out in any number of more respectable ways.

...

...
Good luck taking on CentOS with this attitude, EDA space is not where openSUSE can shine if community members act like they need to protect their tiny projects, I have requested a separate OBS project for ASIC and FPGA EDA effort, and was told to use electronics, so make up your mind...

Why do you think we want to do it the way you're proposing? For what it's worth, if you tried to gaslight me for my devel project like you're doing to Stefan now, then I would *definitely* never want to help you.

There are no "my" devel projects and "your" devel projects. Any OBS user may submit requests to any devel project and expect to be treated without condescension. [1] https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/856971

...

<trim> Cheers, -- Atri Bhattacharya

Atri Bhattacharya

21:51

On Sun, 2020-12-20 at 09:11 -0500, Neal Gompa wrote:

...

On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 8:14 AM Mark Stopka wrote:

...
$SUBJECT, someone should share the memo with Stefan...

- https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/856976 - https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/856971

He apparently feels a sole gatekeeper of a project that has 74 packages in total, 9 failing, 7 unresolvable including 2 years old verilator that is linked to Factory...

While I agree that an SR to bump versions is fair game, your attitude to the maintainer is reprehensible. Suggesting incompetence to the maintainer is not how you get them to work with you.

...

...
Good luck taking on CentOS with this attitude, EDA space is not where openSUSE can shine if community members act like they need to protect their tiny projects, I have requested a separate OBS project for ASIC and FPGA EDA effort, and was told to use electronics, so make up your mind...

Why do you think we want to do it the way you're proposing? For what it's worth, if you tried to gaslight me for my devel project like you're doing to Stefan now, then I would *definitely* never want to help you.

...

<trim> Cheers, -- Atri Bhattacharya

Simon Lees

23:07

On 12/21/20 12:41 AM, Neal Gompa wrote:

...

On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 8:14 AM Mark Stopka wrote:

...
Why do you think we want to do it the way you're proposing? For what it's worth, if you tried to gaslight me for my devel project like you're doing to Stefan now, then I would *definitely* never want to help you.

Just to make it clear to all, referring to a devel project as something that any one person owns is not acceptable. All devel projects belong to the community and the community entrusts people to look after them. I'm sure Neal probably didn't mean anything else but I think its important to keep wording around this area clear. Cheers -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Neal Gompa

23:22

On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 6:07 PM Simon Lees wrote:

...

On 12/21/20 12:41 AM, Neal Gompa wrote:

...
On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 8:14 AM Mark Stopka wrote:

...
Why do you think we want to do it the way you're proposing? For what it's worth, if you tried to gaslight me for my devel project like you're doing to Stefan now, then I would *definitely* never want to help you.

Just to make it clear to all, referring to a devel project as something that any one person owns is not acceptable. All devel projects belong to the community and the community entrusts people to look after them. I'm sure Neal probably didn't mean anything else but I think its important to keep wording around this area clear.

Yeah, I meant my devel "packages" instead, but I mistyped. I do maintain several packages myself, but the point I was trying to make is that being rude in a submit request is not a good path to get a maintainer to accept it. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

Tristan Miller

3 Jan 3 Jan

14:59

Greetings. On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 09:37:14 +1030, Simon Lees wrote:

...

Just to make it clear to all, referring to a devel project as something that any one person owns is not acceptable.

You had better tell the OBS maintainers, then, since every OBS user profile has a tab listing "Owned Projects/Packages". Please don't criticize Neal for using the officially sanctioned terminology. Regards, Tristan -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Tristan Miller Free Software developer, ferret herder, logologist https://logological.org/ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Simon Lees

4 Jan 4 Jan

12:37

On 1/4/21 1:29 AM, Tristan Miller wrote:

...

Greetings.

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 09:37:14 +1030, Simon Lees wrote:

...
Just to make it clear to all, referring to a devel project as something that any one person owns is not acceptable.

You had better tell the OBS maintainers, then, since every OBS user profile has a tab listing "Owned Projects/Packages". Please don't criticize Neal for using the officially sanctioned terminology.

When I filter my Projects / Packages via Role, none come up for owner and all come up under maintainer. Cheers -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Malcolm

20 Dec 20 Dec

15:58

On Sun 20 Dec 2020 02:13:15 PM CST, Mark Stopka wrote: <snip>

...

Good luck taking on CentOS with this attitude, EDA space is not where openSUSE can shine if community members act like they need to protect their tiny projects, I have requested a separate OBS project for ASIC and FPGA EDA effort, and was told to use electronics, so make up your mind...

Hi Just to clarify, since it appears your referring to my openSUSE Build Service mailing list reply, you were not told anything, it was just an observation on my part that some of the packages you were interested in already existed... Ref: https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/buildservice@lists.opensuse.org/mes... <snip> -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° SUSE Knowledge Partner (Linux Counter #276890) Tumbleweed 20201216 | GNOME Shell 3.38.2 | 5.9.14-1-default Intel DQ77MK MB | Xeon E3-1245 V2 X8 @ 3.40 GHz | Intel/Nvidia up 1 day 0:45, 2 users, load average: 1.20, 1.47, 1.13

Matwey V. Kornilov

16:13

20.12.2020 16:13, Mark Stopka пишет:

...

$SUBJECT, someone should share the memo with Stefan...

- https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/856976 - https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/856971

He apparently feels a sole gatekeeper of a project that has 74 packages in total, 9 failing, 7 unresolvable including 2 years old verilator that is linked to Factory...

So, what is the problem for you to just SR updates for this packages? Why do you need to be a maintainer for this?

...

Good luck taking on CentOS with this attitude, EDA space is not where openSUSE can shine if community members act like they need to protect their tiny projects, I have requested a separate OBS project for ASIC and FPGA EDA effort, and was told to use electronics, so make up your mind...

The facepalm is intended for a person on a BCC... 🤦‍♂️

Question: What can SUSE help you with to grow the community? Not to place roadblocks in my way... I'd Stefan is such a roadblock, so perhaps board@ can start removing community roadblocks also, I am not facing any roadblocks from SUSE at this point. He rejected a valid version update of a package which is not even linked to Factory or any upstream, yet provided 0 specific issues with the request...

-- Best regards / S pozdravem, BSc. Mark Stopka, BBA Managing Partner (at) PERLUR Group

mobile: +420 704 373 561 website: www.perlur.cloud _______________________________________________ openSUSE Project mailing list -- project@lists.opensuse.org To unsubscribe, email project-leave@lists.opensuse.org List Netiquette: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette List Archives: https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/project@lists.opensuse.org

Mark Stopka

16:21

On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 5:14 PM Matwey V. Kornilov wrote:

...

20.12.2020 16:13, Mark Stopka пишет:

...
$SUBJECT, someone should share the memo with Stefan...

- https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/856976 - https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/856971

He apparently feels a sole gatekeeper of a project that has 74 packages in total, 9 failing, 7 unresolvable including 2 years old verilator that is linked to Factory...

So, what is the problem for you to just SR updates for this packages? Why do you need to be a maintainer for this?

I did, yet it was rejected with no meaningful justification, thought on that perhaps? The fact that being a maintainer streamlines the process, reduces overhead and reduces time to market are just "sideeffects"...

...

...
Good luck taking on CentOS with this attitude, EDA space is not where openSUSE can shine if community members act like they need to protect their tiny projects, I have requested a separate OBS project for ASIC and FPGA EDA effort, and was told to use electronics, so make up your mind...

The facepalm is intended for a person on a BCC... 🤦‍♂️

Question: What can SUSE help you with to grow the community? Not to place roadblocks in my way... I'd Stefan is such a roadblock, so perhaps board@ can start removing community roadblocks also, I am not facing any roadblocks from SUSE at this point. He rejected a valid version update of a package which is not even linked to Factory or any upstream, yet provided 0 specific issues with the request...

-- Best regards / S pozdravem, BSc. Mark Stopka, BBA Managing Partner (at) PERLUR Group

mobile: +420 704 373 561 website: www.perlur.cloud _______________________________________________ openSUSE Project mailing list -- project@lists.opensuse.org To unsubscribe, email project-leave@lists.opensuse.org List Netiquette: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette List Archives: https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/project@lists.opensuse.org

_______________________________________________ openSUSE Project mailing list -- project@lists.opensuse.org To unsubscribe, email project-leave@lists.opensuse.org List Netiquette: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette List Archives: https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/project@lists.opensuse.org

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Atri Bhattacharya
Malcolm
Mark Stopka
Matwey V. Kornilov
Neal Gompa
Simon Lees
Stefan Brüns
Tristan Miller

How was it? Community of friendly equal gekkos?

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