[opensuse-project] BugBuster team ?
It appear, from many posts on mail lists, as urgent need to organize effort on bug solving, so I propose to create team of people willing to work on that. Purpose: Helping developers in bug handling. Picking issues on bugzilla, mail lists, forums, and working on them in cooperation with developers. Advantage: Friendly bug reporting for users. Lesser load on developers for trivial tasks to triage bugs and ask users for often asked information, education of users what is necessary. Task on hand: Actively ask people that already report bugs to join team. I'm not sure on acceptance of BugBuster term, so I didn't create wiki page. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Rajko M. a écrit :
It appear, from many posts on mail lists, as urgent need to organize effort on bug solving, so I propose to create team of people willing to work on that.
isn't that doubling the testing team? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1412160445 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 19:39:25 +0200, jdd wrote:
Rajko M. a écrit :
It appear, from many posts on mail lists, as urgent need to organize effort on bug solving, so I propose to create team of people willing to work on that.
isn't that doubling the testing team? jdd
I think Rajko is talking about bug reporting, not the actual team that works on the bugs and tests them, based on the "users' perspectives..." thread. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 03 April 2009 01:17:43 pm Jim Henderson wrote:
On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 19:39:25 +0200, jdd wrote:
Rajko M. a écrit :
It appear, from many posts on mail lists, as urgent need to organize effort on bug solving, so I propose to create team of people willing to work on that.
isn't that doubling the testing team? jdd
I think Rajko is talking about bug reporting, not the actual team that works on the bugs and tests them, based on the "users' perspectives..." thread.
My perception of Testing Team is that they are a group for Factory testing, while BugBusters should be shim between users and bugzilla. If I'm right then there is small difference in organization of effort. Testing team members should be advanced users ready to run Factory, use opensuse-factory list for communication. BugBusters would be the same considering skill set, but focused to improve users experience with released version of opensuse. They would use different lists for communication. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, Il giorno ven, 03/04/2009 alle 19.39 +0200, jdd ha scritto:
Rajko M. a écrit :
It appear, from many posts on mail lists, as urgent need to organize effort on bug solving, so I propose to create team of people willing to work on that.
isn't that doubling the testing team? jdd
I actually have the same feeling. There is a lot of overlap with the activities of a testing team. Of course the testing team won't look for bugs in ML and try to convince developers to fix them if not reported on bugzilla in a proper manner, and I don't think this is worth the effort because you need direct feedback by the person affected by the bug in most of the cases. However, the testing team should also, but of course it depends on the number of people involved, prepare some tutorial to explain how to produce useful bugreports. All this was explained in my slides, when I proposed the testing team creation, so I invite you to re-read them. Best regards, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 09 April 2009 11:45:32 pm Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
Hi,
Il giorno ven, 03/04/2009 alle 19.39 +0200, jdd ha scritto:
Rajko M. a écrit :
It appear, from many posts on mail lists, as urgent need to organize effort on bug solving, so I propose to create team of people willing to work on that.
isn't that doubling the testing team? jdd
I actually have the same feeling. There is a lot of overlap with the activities of a testing team.
Of course the testing team won't look for bugs in ML and try to convince developers to fix them if not reported on bugzilla in a proper manner, and I don't think this is worth the effort because you need direct feedback by the person affected by the bug in most of the cases.
However, the testing team should also, but of course it depends on the number of people involved, prepare some tutorial to explain how to produce useful bugreports. All this was explained in my slides, when I proposed the testing team creation, so I invite you to re-read them.
Best regards, A.
I didn't mention, but BugBusters should be a shim layer between certain class of users and bugzilla, or better to say developers. For large class of users, words "report a bug", is the same as "fix it". They don't know how to do it. Reasons: 1) Bugzilla is not the friendliest face in computing. UI needs serious work to be brought to that level. Recent improvements are the way to go. 2) Missing clicky pointy tools to collect for debuggers (developers) useful information. Now you have to know how run few utilities that are far beyond average computer user today. 3) Smolt as a hardware information collector can be useful to some extent, but it is not mentioned anywhere. The siga is not mentioned either. 4) As mentioned few times developers have no time to explain everything. Current state of mind is that if I, as a helper, can't reproduce bug, I should not report it, because I can't give any info without going back and fort between ML and bugzilla. In case that I (nor anyone else) can't tell user what to do, and I have no place where to put request for help (ie. escalate case), then user is on his own, unless developers hang on ML. I don't see much duplication of the Testing Team purpose. The comment about splitting the body volunteer users, that is just to some extent correct. Most of the people that help other can do testing, but they do that sporadically, just as those that do testing most of the time sporadically help in forums and ML. They are 2 mind sets that have completely different goals. Fact that they do the other thing from time to time, is just to avoid boredom. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Il giorno ven, 10/04/2009 alle 02.28 -0500, Rajko M. ha scritto:
2) Missing clicky pointy tools to collect for debuggers (developers) useful information. Now you have to know how run few utilities that are far beyond average computer user today.
How can you do this in a consistent manner = 1 tool for everything? At the moment there are tools like bugbuddy, but they are limited to a certain environment and a certain set of applications.
3) Smolt as a hardware information collector can be useful to some extent, but it is not mentioned anywhere. The siga is not mentioned either. 4) As mentioned few times developers have no time to explain everything.
Point 3 and 4 are imho one of the things that the community testing team should deal with. But of course any help is welcome!
Current state of mind is that if I, as a helper, can't reproduce bug, I should not report it, because I can't give any info without going back and fort between ML and bugzilla.
In case that I (nor anyone else) can't tell user what to do, and I have no place where to put request for help (ie. escalate case), then user is on his own, unless developers hang on ML.
I don't see much duplication of the Testing Team purpose.
Hmm. I actually see more overlap after this answer, because from what I understand the BugBuster team should simply become an interface between users and debuggers/testing team/developers, increasing the steps of the process. I really would reconsider your idea in the light of becoming a part of the testing team that takes care of becoming an interface with the users, so that the reference point stays one. Best, Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 12:23:08 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
It appear, from many posts on mail lists, as urgent need to organize effort on bug solving, so I propose to create team of people willing to work on that.
Purpose: Helping developers in bug handling. Picking issues on bugzilla, mail lists, forums, and working on them in cooperation with developers.
Advantage: Friendly bug reporting for users. Lesser load on developers for trivial tasks to triage bugs and ask users for often asked information, education of users what is necessary.
Task on hand: Actively ask people that already report bugs to join team.
I'm not sure on acceptance of BugBuster term, so I didn't create wiki page.
-- Regards, Rajko
One thing that might help would be to coordinate with various communities - such as the openSUSE Forums. They have community leadership in place, and perhaps this is something that could be incorporated into the way they do things. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 03 April 2009 01:16:58 pm Jim Henderson wrote:
One thing that might help would be to coordinate with various communities - such as the openSUSE Forums. They have community leadership in place, and perhaps this is something that could be incorporated into the way they do things.
I agree, but, as you know, I'm not very active there, so I don't know where is good place to start. Can you start discussion there, or take any other action that you find appropriate. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 13:59:00 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
On Friday 03 April 2009 01:16:58 pm Jim Henderson wrote:
One thing that might help would be to coordinate with various communities - such as the openSUSE Forums. They have community leadership in place, and perhaps this is something that could be incorporated into the way they do things.
I agree, but, as you know, I'm not very active there, so I don't know where is good place to start. Can you start discussion there, or take any other action that you find appropriate.
I'm only active in a couple of places there myself, but if you want to e- mail me off-list I can suggest a person to initiate contact with to get a discussion going with their leadership. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Some thoughts...
On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Rajko M.
It appear, from many posts on mail lists, as urgent need to organize effort on bug solving, so I propose to create team of people willing to work on that.
Purpose: Helping developers in bug handling. Picking issues on bugzilla, mail lists, forums, and working on them in cooperation with developers.
Advantage: Friendly bug reporting for users. Lesser load on developers for trivial tasks to triage bugs and ask users for often asked information, education of users what is necessary.
Task on hand: Actively ask people that already report bugs to join team.
I'm not sure on acceptance of BugBuster term, so I didn't create wiki page.
I agree with the whole idea, and I think my initial bug reporting would have been better for all concerned if I'd had someway say 'Can you do x then y then z....', or had a gui that collated 'commonly useful data' fro me to submit with the bug report. It does seem that for this exercise to be most effective and least burdensome, missing links are data and some tools to help this workflow: - data: - Bug reporting volunteer's hardware profile, c.f. smolt, but this data would not be anonymous - Bug reporting volunteer's installed packages profile - Bug buster volunteer's hardware profile - Bug buster volunteer's installed packages profile - tools: - Code to match reporter with buster(s) according to profile data. Probably done server side. - A distributed issue tracking application, i.e. a 'git-for-issues'. See ditz (ditz.rubyforge.org) and ditz-commander (code.google.com/p/ditz-commander), others...? - A GUI BugBuster issue submission application (this does all the (esoteric) data collection in the background, e.g lsmod, etc.) Possible workflow: - Similar to Smolt: At install time a user gets asked if they want to help 'bust bugs'? Clear and prominent info is given about lack of privacy and what is involved. E.g. "If you submit an issue a volunteer will see your system info (possibly some of your data?), and you may be invited (by an automated service) to join a public forum discussion of this issue, but the volunteer won't have any of your contact details." - A problem occurs. - The user opens a g|kbugbuster GUI, fills in what they are prompted for. The bugbuster app gathers other useful data (cat /proc/cpuinfo, etc.). - User is shown data to be submitted and asked to confirm. - User data is used match (tough?) to volunteer(s) - the matching code is where the most value could be added to the current process.... - The reporter can see if any volunteer match thier hardware/software profile, given an estimate of avg time to have an issue 'adopted' by a volunteer (so they can decide what the next best move for them; wait, google, etc.) - If a volunteer adopts an issue, they do so via the g|kbugbuster gui. Remeber they are using a distributed issue tracker. If they can replicate it as a bug they can submit to Novell's bugzilla. - If volunteer needs to contact the reporter to clarify/resolve the issue then the bugbuster server sends and invite to both to join a public forum thread (created automagically on a dedicated openSuse forum?) to discuss the issue. Other volunteers might chime in, and there is a public record of lessons learned. Apart from the distributed issue tracker, assuming ditz is suitable, some development of the tools and server side code would need to happen. If this worked it could substantially increase the quality of Novell's bug reports. It'd also give Novell a more efficient and robust de-bugging process, so perhaps they'd see value in getting such a effort kick-started? HTH Mark
-- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, I think this is going to be "yet another duplicate effort" in our community. Instead of building the yet to born testing team, we start to split it before its creation with something that shares 99% of the role of the testing team. All this was explained in my initial proposal, which was submitted to at least three mailing-lists and is linked also on the testing team wiki page. Please, read it. :-) Moreover, before creating pages on the wiki, thinking to what are the tasks of the bugbuster team and so on, why don't you join us in the discussion about the testing team that will happen during the Community Week? (See opensuse-testing mailing list for details). Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le vendredi 03 avril 2009, à 12:23 -0500, Rajko M. a écrit :
It appear, from many posts on mail lists, as urgent need to organize effort on bug solving, so I propose to create team of people willing to work on that.
Not commenting on the proposal itself. I just want to point out that in other communities, we use BugSquad and not BugBuster... I think it'd make sense to use the same term if we create such a team. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 10 April 2009 08:07:11 am Vincent Untz wrote:
Not commenting on the proposal itself. I just want to point out that in other communities, we use BugSquad and not BugBuster... I think it'd make sense to use the same term if we create such a team.
The most important is to get that off the ground. The name can be changed if necessary. Since the idea is mentioned in Alberto's proposal in one sentence, so I got to reread carefully to see it, developing it will not hurt Testing Tim idea, just opposite. Of course contact with you guys is essential, to see what tasks can be delegated to ML, IRC, forums etc. Before that is cleared there is nothing to call for volunteers. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
participants (6)
-
Alberto Passalacqua -
jdd -
Jim Henderson -
Mark V -
Rajko M. -
Vincent Untz