On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:43 PM, Lars Müller wrote:

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 10:37:42PM +0200, Alex Naumov wrote:

...

I think it will be great to create a new mailing list about python development on openSUSE.

As I can see we have opensuse-ruby and opensuse-java mailing lists already.

Have you checked the amount of postings to both of these lists?

The list traffic is very, very low each months. If you count all postings for this year which cover the programming scope in general you get for the three lists we currently have:

opensuse-ruby 141 postings opensuse-programming 55 postings opensuse-java 35 postings

It's the gerneral approach to create a new list when the amount of traffic caused by a particular topic requires it.

Thanks for your reply Lars, but, for example, I use official python-ML until now, because I didn't found one about python on lists.opensuse.org, and I think I'm not the only one who do this. Now I ask about something openSUSE related, because it's not so easy sometimes to build/find some frameworks or just modules. And, as I said, I believe that this new ML can help to bring oS-python people together.

We already have more than 80 different mailing lists. Instead of creating yet a new one dedicated to python I suggest to close the opensuse-ruby and opensuse-java and instead use opensuse-programming for all programming languages, topics, and questions.

Yes, everybody can use one ML for all programming questions, but will it be really comfortably for our community?

Even one combined list is easy to manage if the authors work with speaking subject lines.

Please keep in mind that each new list leads to more fragmentation of our community.

Hm... only for our python community, I guess :) By the way, before I started this topic here, I created a poll at connect. Everybody are welcome to vote: https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/polls/read/Alexander_Naumov/41665/do-we-need... This poll will change nothing, but so we can better see the opinion of our community.

Cheers,

Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team + SUSE Labs SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

Alex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/18/2012 03:33 AM, Philipp Thomas wrote:

On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:34:05 +0200, Alex Naumov wrote:

...

Yes, everybody can use one ML for all programming questions, but will it be really comfortably for our community?

For the majority I'd say it would be so. It was meant to be a forum for all problems pertaining to programming on openSUSE and so encompasses all programming languages.

The traffic is so low on opensuse-programming that it wouldn't hurt to close all other programming language specific lists and direct them to opensuse-programming.

When we get to traffic in the volume of comp.lang.c we can talk again about splitting up, don't you think?

Sounds good, me just wanders why not apply the same logic to other lists as well i.e opensuse-factory-base opensuse-factory-graphics opensuse-factory-factory These three either have no traffic ( not counting the spam mails) or so little that the topic does not deserve to have a separate mailing list. How about removing the above three lists Togan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/18/2012 01:53 PM, Lars Müller wrote:

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 11:49:32AM +0200, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:

...

On 09/18/2012 03:33 AM, Philipp Thomas wrote:

...

On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:34:05 +0200, Alex Naumov wrote:

...

Yes, everybody can use one ML for all programming questions, but will it be really comfortably for our community?

For the majority I'd say it would be so. It was meant to be a forum for all problems pertaining to programming on openSUSE and so encompasses all programming languages.

The traffic is so low on opensuse-programming that it wouldn't hurt to close all other programming language specific lists and direct them to opensuse-programming.

When we get to traffic in the volume of comp.lang.c we can talk again about splitting up, don't you think?

Sounds good, me just wanders why not apply the same logic to other lists as well i.e

opensuse-factory-base opensuse-factory-graphics opensuse-factory-factory

These three either have no traffic ( not counting the spam mails) or so little that the topic does not deserve to have a separate mailing list.

How about removing the above three lists

Please start a dedicated, separate thread for your modification/ change request.

We have to ensure to keep this issue isolated to the opensuse-programming topic this thread is about.

If you start such a thread I would consider it helpful if you substantiate your suggestion with a rough statistic as we've seen as part of this discussion.

Since I have added this to the agenda but not on the list as a separate thread do you consider the approach not helpful but as harmful Me wanders, why you always go for the cosmetics /organizational things rather then just ignoring these tiny details ;) Anyway, the topic is added to the biweekly project meeting, end of discussion on the topic on this thread from my point of view. Togan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 3:33 AM, Philipp Thomas wrote:

On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:34:05 +0200, Alex Naumov wrote:

...

Yes, everybody can use one ML for all programming questions, but will it be really comfortably for our community?

For the majority I'd say it would be so. It was meant to be a forum for all problems pertaining to programming on openSUSE and so encompasses all programming languages.

The traffic is so low on opensuse-programming that it wouldn't hurt to close all other programming language specific lists and direct them to opensuse-programming.

When we get to traffic in the volume of comp.lang.c we can talk again about splitting up, don't you think?

I believe that the creation of new ML about python programming language can have a positive impact on the growth of their community. So many people are talking about "low traffic". Yes, you are right, but anybody ask himself about the reason of that? Look at the opensuse-ruby and opensuse-java MLs and compare the number of topics with the python-topics in opensuse-programming. Do you really believe that we have more ruby or java developers than python? I think they just uses another MLs, like me, because openSUSE hasn't one. Look at connect.opensuse.org: Ruby group - 11 people (has mailing list) Java group - 8 people (has mailing list) Python group - 28 people (has NO mailing list) Actually that's no problem to use another MLs for me (and for another, I guess), but the question is... do we want to leave it as is, or maybe we can try to change it? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 20:33:48 +0200 Alex Naumov wrote:

Look at connect.opensuse.org: Ruby group - ... Actually that's no problem to use another MLs for me (and for another, I guess), but the question is... do we want to leave it as is, or maybe we can try to change it?

In particular case of a new ML for one programming language, what other tried to say is that congregating all developers to one list can only help openSUSE without much difference for developers. Imagine situation that we non-developers need program to solve some problem around openSUSE, where do we go? Right now I don't have an answer. The only help we can get is from SUSE employees when they have time. In practice that means to fix web infrastructure problems, and usually just what must be done. Convenience scripts to parse wikies and update stuff that can be done automatically are just dreams, even when whole work would be to adapt some existing Wikipedia script. I know about opensuse-programming http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-programming/ but 2 messages in 2012-09 and nothing better in other. Nothing better are other 2 programming related lists: http://lists.opensuse.org/stats/opensuse-java/opensuse-java.html about 50 subscribers http://lists.opensuse.org/stats/opensuse-ruby/opensuse-ruby.html about 50 subscribers http://lists.opensuse.org/stats/opensuse-programming/opensuse-programming.ht... about 600 subscribers http://lists.opensuse.org/stats/opensuse-programming-de/opensuse-programming... about 500 subscribers Creating a list is not a big deal from organizational effort perspective, but: * having dead lists is a problem from marketing point of view * it often artificially splits community resources, making them hidden from people that are not subscribed. * experience with factory-xyz lists and few other just confirms that list alone doesn't change activity. For instance opensuse-programming and opensuse-programming-de and the other 2 lists will be better off if joined. Current split by language, spoken or programming, is hard to defend: * Most of the programmers have enough English language skills to be able to participate in discussions, if public is not particular about grammar and spelling. * Those that don't can use whatever their native language is, and hope to get answer. * The same is for programming language specific lists, where one can skip reading language specific posts, but can take part in general discussion how to solve some problem. * This will save German speaking developers one mail list subscription, * and it will bring community resources together. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 21:22:38 +0100 Nelson Marques wrote:

So I hope people can let this one slip in...

Did you check links that are posted in previous message? Programming groups (mail lists) are for all practical purposes dead. The opensuse-programming is empty and, if Alex and you want to discuss Python, it is almost as good as a private list. I don't think that you will see any programming language flames, but in the case you do, you know Board address. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

The Board? Are they the 'netiquette' police now ? :)

Well they have behaved in the past like 'judge, jury and executors' on behalf of members (in my behalf as I was a member before) and applied an unprecedented rule (for which there was no defined procedure) and did it behind closed doors. I don't approve 'vigilantism', even if it comes from the Board... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Lars Müller wrote:

The list traffic is very, very low each months. If you count all postings for this year which cover the programming scope in general you get for the three lists we currently have:

opensuse-ruby 141 postings opensuse-programming 55 postings opensuse-java 35 postings

It's the gerneral approach to create a new list when the amount of traffic caused by a particular topic requires it.

We already have more than 80 different mailing lists. Instead of creating yet a new one dedicated to python I suggest to close the opensuse-ruby and opensuse-java and instead use opensuse-programming for all programming languages, topics, and questions.

+1 -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org