* Joe Harmon [08-04-09 16:06]:

Why not let the user make that choice?

Explained *many* times but you have not accepted the explanation.

Why do need to suggest anything?

same answer.

Is the fear that one desktop will overtake another by not suggesting a desktop?

see above

I just don't understand why we are suggesting anything.

see above

If we truly support both desktops then either install them both and give the user a better option for seeing the difference between the two or let the user make the choice.

The *user* in this case is *unknowing* and will develope his preferences with experience.

It has been said in earlier threads that the reason for doing this is so that we have more of a user experience like Ubuntu.

no, simplicity of installation. We are not interested in using Ubutu.

But Ubuntu has one desktop that they officially support. We don't.

:^)

That isn't a bad thing, I think it is a good thing.

:^)

But if we want less screens or choices for a new user, I don't see how suggesting one desktop over an equally supported desktop is an answer to that problem.

We are not advocating or suggesting one over the other, but making the *original* installation *simpler*. The accompanying text will explain that the preselection may be changed and that it is done as a convience determined by the popularity of one vs the other, not on the merits of one vs the other.

We are essentially saying that the selected desktop is the suggested or preferred desktop.

Not *suggested*, but it *is* the *preferred* desktop as indicated by the number of users, not a technical decision but a popularity decision. AND the proposal is to list gnome first. Would you prefer renaming kde to gkde? -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Joe Harmon [08-04-09 16:06]:

...

Why not let the user make that choice?

Explained *many* times but you have not accepted the explanation.

...

Why do need to suggest anything?

YES! YES! YES! people. New users don't know WHAT to choose. Please try to put aside your "political" convictions whatever they may be, and just give new users *something*. If you don't, the installation process will be even more frightening to them than it likely already is. KDE seems to be a very reasonable choice, frankly.

same answer.

...

Is the fear that one desktop will overtake another by not suggesting a desktop?

see above

...

I just don't understand why we are suggesting anything.

see above

...

If we truly support both desktops then either install them both and give the user a better option for seeing the difference between the two or let the user make the choice.

The *user* in this case is *unknowing* and will develope his preferences with experience.

...

It has been said in earlier threads that the reason for doing this is so that we have more of a user experience like Ubuntu.

no, simplicity of installation. We are not interested in using Ubutu.

...

But Ubuntu has one desktop that they officially support. We don't.

:^)

...

That isn't a bad thing, I think it is a good thing.

:^)

...

But if we want less screens or choices for a new user, I don't see how suggesting one desktop over an equally supported desktop is an answer to that problem.

We are not advocating or suggesting one over the other, but making the *original* installation *simpler*. The accompanying text will explain that the preselection may be changed and that it is done as a convience determined by the popularity of one vs the other, not on the merits of one vs the other.

...

We are essentially saying that the selected desktop is the suggested or preferred desktop.

Not *suggested*, but it *is* the *preferred* desktop as indicated by the number of users, not a technical decision but a popularity decision. AND the proposal is to list gnome first.

Would you prefer renaming kde to gkde?

-- ============================================================ Kay Schenk ph: 530-898-5339 Applications Development and Enterprise Design CSU, Chico "The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time." -- Bertrand Russell -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

...

...

On 8/5/2009 at 09:46 AM, Kay Schenk wrote:

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Joe Harmon [08-04-09 16:06]:

...

Why not let the user make that choice?

Explained *many* times but you have not accepted the explanation.

...

Why do need to suggest anything?

YES! YES! YES! people. New users don't know WHAT to choose. Please try to put aside your "political" convictions whatever they may be, and just give new users *something*. If you don't, the installation process will be even more frightening to them than it likely already is. KDE seems to be a very reasonable choice, frankly.

This has nothing to do with political convictions. This has to do with trying to be fair to both desktops. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

...

...

On 8/5/2009 at 10:12 AM, Kay Schenk wrote: I understand that, but I beg to disagree. Try to remember a time when you were a new user, and ahd to make this kind of decision. Yes, it does take "guts" to switch to Linux, but I think you need to understand, that even people with "guts" need help and hand holding on these kinds of issues. I switched to SuSE in 2001, ver 7.1. I knew NOTHING about either KDE or Gnome at the time. I had to do a LOT of investigation on my own to figure all this out. What has been suggested if I'm reading all this correctly is to simply check a DE button for the installer, presumable KDE. Ok, if you are not willing to do that, I think you will need to provide some help icons for both. I don't think either approach is necessarily "bad", but I think you are really misreading your potential market of new users, who, by the way, are not ALL computer geeks.

Having supported openSUSE and SLED for many years I do think I understand the new users very well. I am not saying that they will know what gnome and kde are. I am not saying that simplifying the install is a bad thing. What I am saying it that by preselecting gnome or kde is not really giving them choice. If we really want the desktops to be equal then we shouldn't preselect for the very fact that our new users do NOT know what they want as far as KDE and GNOME are concerned. If KDE is preselected they will probably use and become familiar with KDE, but what if they would have liked GNOME better. Or vice versa. I have used both and found that I prefer one over the other. It really has nothing to do with the technology below but more to do with personal preference. Making a preselection shows a preference

I really think for new users, no doubt coming over from Windows, less is definitely more.

I think helping them understand what they are choosing is a really good thing. But making a preselection when they two desktops are "supposed" to be equal is not making them equal. The only thing I am arguing is that preselection is not the proper solution to simplifying the install when two desktops are supposed to be equal. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, den 05.08.2009, 18:18 +0200 schrieb Peter Czanik:

A desktop is just the same, as Postfix/Sendmail/Exim/ssmtp, everybody has a personal preference, still Postfix is the most popular, and used

How do you come by this ludicrous statement which is obviously incorrect. You are comparing apples and oranges. The choice between two DEs represents a choice between two completely different SUBSETS of applications, following two completely DIFFERENT design philosophies. There is no simply 'most popular' or 'better' here! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Christian Jäger wrote:

Am Mittwoch, den 05.08.2009, 18:18 +0200 schrieb Peter Czanik:

...

A desktop is just the same, as Postfix/Sendmail/Exim/ssmtp, everybody has a personal preference, still Postfix is the most popular, and used

How do you come by this ludicrous statement which is obviously incorrect. You are comparing apples and oranges.

The choice between two DEs represents a choice between two completely different SUBSETS of applications, following two completely DIFFERENT design philosophies.

There is no simply 'most popular' or 'better' here!

explain why there is no "most popular" when considering DE's? btw, i agree there is no; "better". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 05 August 2009 18:01:34 Joe Harmon wrote:

...

...

...

On 8/5/2009 at 09:46 AM, Kay Schenk wrote:

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Joe Harmon [08-04-09 16:06]:

...

Why not let the user make that choice?

Explained *many* times but you have not accepted the explanation.

...

Why do need to suggest anything?

YES! YES! YES! people. New users don't know WHAT to choose. Please try to put aside your "political" convictions whatever they may be, and just give new users *something*. If you don't, the installation process will be even more frightening to them than it likely already is. KDE seems to be a very reasonable choice, frankly.

This has nothing to do with political convictions. This has to do with trying to be fair to both desktops.

Novell resources both desktops for openSUSE fairly and they participate fairly in the openSUSE creation process. AJ's draft policy suggested yesterday treats both desktops fairly by popularity (as Debian does) and by presenting them in alphabetical order. The draft policy meets the goals of making the openSUSE installation one click clearer and fairer to new users, thereby growing the distribution, while increasing our participation from and attractiveness to a major upstream project, and respecting the preferences (fairly) the vast majority of our users, sending a message that openSUSE is open and fair. The position of GNOME and other sub-groups within the community remains the same, and by growing openSUSE overall, make them more visible. Doing nothing merely maintains the status quo and surpresses the issue. To focus only on the present and the past and discount change, even if controversial and scary, is inward-looking and harms growth. Choosing a default according to clear policy is good product design, good usability, pragmatic and fair to the entire project. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

...

...

On 8/5/2009 at 10:28 AM, "jdd (kim2)" wrote: May I recall on this already too long thread that Novell (SLES, SLED) default to Gnome. If openSUSE default to Kde, this seems to me simply fair, making the balance equal.

I would argue that there may be people who would have preferred KDE that ended up using gnome because it was preselected in this instance. How do we know unless the choice is left to the user. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Clayton wrote:

I've been reading the two threads on this and I have been wondering.. is there anything inherently _wrong_ with how things were presented in openSUSE 11.1?

I completely agree with this. Keep it as it is please!

The only change I would make would be to change from radio buttons to check boxes so that people could select more than one DE on install (convenience factor for people like me that like to tinker).

As one of the elusive XFCE4 users I often install KDE and gnome applications too for use 'when needed' (yes, I know that actually using them loads the myriad libraries etc. and slows things to a crawl on older hardware. That's why only 'when needed'). This is easy enough in the pattern menu though, and would serve to confuse newbies.

Catering to the mindless click next 5 times and it's installed mentality.. well give those people the KDE or Gnome Live CDs.

I don't think we should - indeed the live CDs are probably right up their street. Then they can complain that OpenSuSE doesn't offer some proprietary package that their MS box has (as a pirated install) and go right back to that OS.

Problem solved? Or no? Have I missed something?

I think the whole issue is making a mountain out of a molehill. -- Cheers Richard (MQ) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

...

...

Catering to the mindless click next 5 times and it's installed mentality.. well give those people the KDE or Gnome Live CDs.

I don't think we should - indeed the live CDs are probably right up their street. Then they can complain that OpenSuSE doesn't offer some proprietary package that their MS box has (as a pirated install) and go right back to that OS.

-1

awesome attitude towards growing the opensuse userbase by helping newbs as they embark on their bewildering new experience.

The LiveCDs do a good job for new users. I've handed the KDE and Gnome LiveCDs to several new users and thay were more than pleased with the results. They boot one.. poke it a bit.. boot the other... poke it a bit and are able to make a reasonably informed choice between Gnome and KDE... they pick whatever "feels right" to them. The DVD still provides both, but is not a LiveDVD... so.. we're right back where we started... :-) C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Will Stephenson wrote:

The position of GNOME and other sub-groups within the community [under the draft policy] remains the same, and by growing openSUSE overall, make them more visible.

So... preselecting KDE will make GNOME more visible. Gotcha. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy wrote:

Sent from Kevin Yeaux's mobile device.

On Aug 4, 2009, at 3:05 PM, "Joe Harmon" wrote:

...

...

Why not let the user make that choice? Why do need to suggest anything? Is the fear that one desktop will overtake another by not suggesting a desktop? I just don't understand why we are suggesting anything. If we truly support both desktops then either install them both and give the user a better option for seeing the difference between the two or let the user make the choice.

It has been said in earlier threads that the reason for doing this is so that we have more of a user experience like Ubuntu. But Ubuntu has one desktop that they officially support. We don't. That isn't a bad thing, I think it is a good thing. But if we want less screens or choices for a new user, I don't see how suggesting one desktop over an equally supported desktop is an answer to that problem. We are essentially saying that the selected desktop is the suggested or preferred desktop.

Joe

This is my entire arguement in one email. Either go all the way, dump one desktop (and cut out half of our contributors and users in hopes of gaining more in the end) or don't suggest anything and make it easier for a user to decide (like the Desktop Tour I'm now planning to start work on later this month). -- Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy openSUSE Project Member Why be so dramatic about it?

If the consensus is that a default DE is desirable, and that does appear to be the consensus, then it makes sense to pre-select the most popular DE as the default. There is no need for extravagant talk of ripping Gnome out of opensuse, that is hyperbole. Opensuse is committed to equal support for both desktops. Novell is committed to Gnome for its commercial suse products. Everyone recognises that opensuse benefits from being an technically excellent multi-desktop distro. None of the above statements invalidates the idea of pre-selecting a DE if opensuse concludes that pre-selecting a DE will benefit the distro. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org