On Wednesday 29 September 2004 18:36, Daryl Lee wrote:

This dialog raises an intersting question: when should people start learning how to seek help?  

They should learn that soon, but they should also realize that they cannot reasonably expect others to do their work. Bothering others with one's problems is justifiable after having done everything that can reasonably be expected to solve the problem of one's own - such as RTFM (I know, nobody bothers about that any more today) and trying some different approaches.

In Jerry Harvey's book "The Abilene Paradox" he tells of teaching a class where the refusal to cheat was sufficient cause to flunk the course.  "Cheating" was defined as asking for or giving help on an exam or homework assignment.  His intent was to teach his students that they perform better as a team than as a collection of isolated individuals.

I consider that a very strange attitude. Asking others is OK if you are stuck, but that is no excuse for giving up at the first sight of a problem.

If Mr. Ody (skipping the gender question for now) learns something as a result of this, then I believe we're all the better for it.  If he simply turns my work in as his own, without learning a few Bash concepts, it will catch up to him soon enough.

I doubt that. I know several people studying computer science with me who essentially got their degrees for other people's work - being part of teams full of enthusiasts yet not doing a damn to contribute. After receiving their degrees, they typically seeked jobs as consultants - the talk-heavy side, not doing very much technical stuff. Did that backfire on them? Not that I know of. They simply benefited from others being social enough (or call it stupid) to drag them through the courses. Just my $0.02 -- Stefan Hundhammer Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SuSE Linux AG Nuernberg, Germany