From Morten.Gulbrandsen@rwth-aachen.de Mon Feb  2 13:22:56 2004
From: Morten Gulbrandsen <Morten.Gulbrandsen@rwth-aachen.de>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: professional or personal edition,
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 14:15:35 +0000
Message-ID: <200402021415.35083.Morten.Gulbrandsen@rwth-aachen.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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orten(a)linux:~> uname -a
Linux linux 2.4.20-4GB #1 Wed Dec 17 18:03:22 UTC 2003 i686 unknown unknown 
GNU/Linux
morten(a)linux:~>


Hello,

I have suse linux  8.2   and would like to know if this is the 
professional or personal edition,

How can I find out about that.

please.

Yours sincerely

Morten Gulbrandsen



--===============2944809603353437735==--


From lbox@nellgc.plus.com Mon Feb  2 15:49:21 2004
From: expatriate <lbox@nellgc.plus.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Porting from Solaris
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 15:49:19 +0000
Message-ID: <401E717F.5040601@nellgc.plus.com>
In-Reply-To: <4015327D.8000403@nellgc.plus.com>
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Hello All

I started a thread some time ago called "GPL Issues" I got some 
responses which of course generated a bunch more questions. I'm talking 
to the powers-that-be in my company (which is quite huge, global 500) 
about moving one of our products' OS from Solaris to Linux. In other 
words, we make a product that has an embedded computer running Solaris 
and now we are considering making the same product but running Linux 
instead. The product is sold to companies who have absolutely no 
interest in the source code (this is true).
Does anyone on this list have experience (that they're willing to share) 
on their legal issues of porting from Solaris to Linux? I've already 
been to gnu.org and read all of their GPL and LGPL documentation. 
Furthermore, my email questions have gone unanswered (probably due to 
lack of staffing).
TIA & Cheers



--===============3478159467728003824==--


From sh@suse.de Mon Feb  2 16:19:50 2004
From: Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] Porting from Solaris
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 17:11:09 +0100
Message-ID: <200402021711.09968.sh@suse.de>
In-Reply-To: <401E717F.5040601@nellgc.plus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Monday 02 February 2004 16:49, expatriate wrote:
> Does anyone on this list have experience (that they're willing to share)
> on their legal issues of porting from Solaris to Linux? I've already
> been to gnu.org and read all of their GPL and LGPL documentation.
> Furthermore, my email questions have gone unanswered (probably due to
> lack of staffing).

If you are more specific, maybe somebody around here can help. I doubt there 
are any lawyers around in any of those lists, but maybe we can point you to 
the respective legal documents that are available.

BTW I don't think it matters from a legal point of view if your customer has 
interest in the sources right now; that doesn't change the GPL at all. The 
GPL states very plainly what you must provide and what not.


CU
-- 
Stefan Hundhammer <sh(a)suse.de>                Penguin by conviction.
YaST2 Development
SuSE Linux AG
Nuernberg, Germany


--===============8655969483860451139==--


From prabusubroto@yahoo.com Tue Feb  3 14:33:21 2004
From: Prabu Subroto <prabusubroto@yahoo.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject:
 "<table></table>" and "<frameset><frame></frame></frameset>" in perl/tk
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 06:24:15 -0800
Message-ID: <20040203142415.59008.qmail@web41307.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dear my friends...

Anybody would be so kind telling me what is similar in
perl/tk to arrange the location of a form written in
perl/tk? I want a nice look for my perl/tk
application.
Somewhat like this below:
1. Name      : <place to type-in>
2. Address   : <place to type-in>
3. Telephone : <place to type-in>

I have made the main menu of my application with
"Menubutton". And I want if the user click on the menu
that what the user see is only the aimed application
displayed on the determined area (under the main menu)
but the menu has no change in position and form.
Somewhat like on HTML:
===
<frameset><frame name=mainmenu
src=mainmenu.html></frame><frame
name=display></frame></frameset>
===
<!--mainmenu.html :-->
<table>
<ol>
<tr><td colspan=2>Main menu :</td></tr>
<tr><td>1.</td><td><a href="biodata.html"
target="display">biodata</a></td></tr>
</table>
===
So the mainmenu will not have any change only the
content of the display frame will have change as the
user work with this application main menu.

Thank you very much in advance.
===
#my current perl/tk code:
#!/usr/bin/perl -w
use Tk;
my $mw = MainWindow->new;
$mw->title("i\@m NA - Linux Server Administrating
Tool");

$frmm = $mw -> Frame(-borderwidth => 2,
                                         -relief =>
'ridge')->pack(-side => 'top',
                                                      
                                    -anchor => 'n',
                                                      
                                    -expand => 1,
                                                      
                                    -fill => 'x');

$mobject = $frmm -> Menubutton(-text => "Administrated
Object",
                                                      
  -menuitems => [['command' => "Samba",
                                                      
                            -command => \&menusamba],
                                                      
                            ['command' => "Squid",
                                                      
                            -command =>
\&menusquid]])->pack(-side =>
'left', 
                                                      
                                                      
                                    -anchor => 'nw', 
                                                      
                                                      
                                -expand =>0);
$msetting = $frmm -> Menubutton(-text =>
"Setting")->pack(-side => 'left', 
                                                      
                                                      
  -anchor => 'nw', 
                                                      
                                                      
  -expand => 0, 
                                                      
                                                      
  -after => $mobject);
$mfile = $frmm -> Menubutton(-text => "File",
                                                      
  -tearoff => 0,
                                                      
  -menuitems => [["command" => "New Document",
                                                      
                                  -command =>
\&new_document],
                                                      
                                  "-"
                                                      
                                  ])->pack(-side =>
'left', 
                                                      
                                                      
  -anchor => 'nw', 
                                                      
                                                      
  -expand => 0, 
                                                      
                                                      
  -after => $msetting);
$doc_num = 1;
$doc_list_limit = 9;
$mw -> Button(-text => "New Document",
                          -command =>
\&new_document)->pack(-side =>
'bottom',
                                                      
                                         -anchor =>
'e');
$entry = $mw->Entry(-width => 80)->pack(-expand => 1,
                                                      
                         -fill => 'both');

$mexit = $frmm -> Button(-text => "Exit", 
                                             -command
=> \&keluar, 
                                            
-borderwidth => 0)->pack(-side => 'left',
                                                      
                                         -anchor =>
'nw', 
                                                      
                                         -expand => 0,

                                                      
                                         -after =>
$mfile);
$mhelp = $frmm -> Menubutton(-text =>
"Help")->pack(-side => 'right',
                                                      
                                           -anchor =>
'ne', 
                                                      
                                           -expand =>
0);

$judul = $mw->Label(-text => "Network Administrator
Main Menu", 
                                        -anchor =>
'center')->place(-y => 30, 
                                                      
                                         -x => 0);

MainLoop;

sub keluar{
        exit();
}

sub menusamba{
        $judul = $mw->Label(-text => "");
}

sub new_document{
        my $name = "Document $doc_num";
        $doc_num++;
        
        push (@current,$name);
        $filem->command(-label => "$name",
                                        -command => [
\&select_document, $name ]);
        &select_document($name);
        if ($#current > $doc_list_limit){
                $filem->menu->delete(2);
                shift(@current);
        }
}

sub select_document {
        my ($selected) = @_;
        $entry->delete(0,'end');
        $entry->insert('end',"SELECTED DOCUMENT:
$selected");
}

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/

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From yep@osterbo-net.dk Wed Feb  4 05:39:22 2004
From: yep@osterbo-net.dk
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] professional or personal edition,
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 06:44:02 +0100
Message-ID: <200402040644.02357.yep@osterbo-net.dk>
In-Reply-To: <200402021415.35083.Morten.Gulbrandsen@rwth-aachen.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Mandag 02 februar 2004 15:15 skrev Morten Gulbrandsen:
> orten(a)linux:~> uname -a
> Linux linux 2.4.20-4GB #1 Wed Dec 17 18:03:22 UTC 2003 i686 unknown unknown
> GNU/Linux
> morten(a)linux:~>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I have suse linux  8.2   and would like to know if this is the
> professional or personal edition,
>
> How can I find out about that.
>


If you got 2 DVD's and 5 CD's


Johan


> please.
>
> Yours sincerely
>
> Morten Gulbrandsen


--===============7970093678493842827==--


From yep@osterbo-net.dk Wed Feb  4 05:48:18 2004
From: yep@osterbo-net.dk
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] professional or personal edition,
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 06:52:51 +0100
Message-ID: <200402040652.51492.yep@osterbo-net.dk>
In-Reply-To: <200402040644.02357.yep@osterbo-net.dk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Onsdag 04 februar 2004 06:44 skrev yep(a)osterbo-net.dk:
> Mandag 02 februar 2004 15:15 skrev Morten Gulbrandsen:
> > orten(a)linux:~> uname -a
> > Linux linux 2.4.20-4GB #1 Wed Dec 17 18:03:22 UTC 2003 i686 unknown
> > unknown GNU/Linux
> > morten(a)linux:~>
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have suse linux  8.2   and would like to know if this is the
> > professional or personal edition,
> >
> > How can I find out about that.
>
> If you got 2 DVD's and 5 CD's = Pro Edition which it says on it actually ;-)
>
>
> Johan
>
> > please.
> >
> > Yours sincerely
> >
> > Morten Gulbrandsen


--===============4401551632912811895==--


From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Thu Feb  5 01:35:53 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: linux-kcc, linux-icc, linux-cxx. building QT
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 20:24:08 -0500
Message-ID: <200402042024.08018.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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When I ran ./configure on the QT source tree, it said 

Build type:    linux-g++
Platform notes:

            - Also available for Linux: linux-kcc linux-icc linux-cxx

I've seen mention of kcc before, but never learned much about it.  The other 
two options are new to me.  What do these mean?  How can I find documentation 
on them?  The last time I looked, the documentation on kcc was something on 
the order of 'It's new.  It's good. RTFS.'

STH

--===============3662421285124646564==--


From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Thu Feb  5 02:08:41 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: qt33 and OpenGL support.
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 20:59:44 -0500
Message-ID: <200402042059.44171.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I'm trying to build some example code from _C++_GUI_Programming_With_Qt_3_=20
that requires OpenGL support.  I get errors such as the following:

 make
g++ -Wl,-rpath,/usr/lib/qt3/lib -o cube cube.o main.o   -L/usr/lib/qt3/lib=20
-L/usr/X11R6/lib -lqt -lXext -lX11 -lm=20
cube.o(.text+0x20): In function `Cube::Cube[not-in-charge](QWidget*, char=20
const*)':
: undefined reference to `QGLWidget::QGLWidget[not-in-charge](QWidget*, char =

const*, QGLWidget const*, unsigned)'
cube.o(.text+0x76): In function `Cube::Cube[not-in-charge](QWidget*, char=20
const*)':
: undefined reference to `QGLFormat::QGLFormat[in-charge](int, int)'
cube.o(.text+0x80): In function `Cube::Cube[not-in-charge](QWidget*, char=20
const*)':

...

cube.o(.gnu.linkonce.t._ZN4CubeD1Ev+0x18): In function `Cube::~Cube=20
[in-charge]()':
: undefined reference to `QGLWidget::~QGLWidget [not-in-charge]()'
cube.o(.gnu.linkonce.t._ZN4CubeD0Ev+0x19): In function `Cube::~Cube [in-charg=
e=20
deleting]()':
: undefined reference to `QGLWidget::~QGLWidget [not-in-charge]()'
cube.o(.gnu.linkonce.r._ZTI4Cube+0x8): undefined reference to `typeinfo for=20
QGLWidget'
main.o(.text+0x25): In function `main':
: undefined reference to `QGLFormat::hasOpenGL()'
main.o(.text+0xd8): In function `main':
: undefined reference to `QGLWidget::~QGLWidget [not-in-charge]()'
main.o(.text+0x11f): In function `main':
: undefined reference to `QGLWidget::~QGLWidget [not-in-charge]()'
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
make: *** [cube] Error 1

This is with QT3.3 from a fresh snapshot.  This is also what I encountered=20
when I tried to use  the QT with SuSE's 'supplementary' KDE 3.2.0.=20

Is there something I need to add to my includes or other arguments to `make'?=
 =20
Does SuSE 9.0 have the development libs for OpenGL?  I believe OpenGL is=20
installed since my OpenGL screensavers work.

Suggestions?

STH

--===============4684362383216170636==--


From sh@suse.de Thu Feb  5 10:29:38 2004
From: Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] qt33 and OpenGL support.
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 11:28:54 +0100
Message-ID: <200402051128.54689.sh@suse.de>
In-Reply-To: <200402042059.44171.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Thursday 05 February 2004 02:59, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
> This is with QT3.3 from a fresh snapshot.  This is also what I encountered
> when I tried to use  the QT with SuSE's 'supplementary' KDE 3.2.0.
>
> Is there something I need to add to my includes or other arguments to
> `make'?   

According to 

	http://doc.trolltech.com/3.3/opengl.html

Qt's "configure" script will autodetect presence of OpenGL if you have it 
installed.


> Does SuSE 9.0 have the development libs for OpenGL?  

Yes, of course: Install package XFree86-Mesa-devel*.rpm.


> I believe OpenGL is installed since my OpenGL screensavers work.
>
> Suggestions?

Check if XFree86-Mesa-devel is installed and if it isn't install it, run 
"configure" for your Qt lib again and rebuild Qt.


CU
-- 
Stefan Hundhammer <sh(a)suse.de>                Penguin by conviction.
YaST2 Development
SuSE Linux AG
Nuernberg, Germany


--===============3673657091729255369==--


From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Thu Feb  5 12:44:54 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] qt33 and OpenGL support.
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 07:29:40 -0500
Message-ID: <200402050729.40907.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
In-Reply-To: <200402051128.54689.sh@suse.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Thursday 05 February 2004 05:28, Stefan Hundhammer wrote:
> On Thursday 05 February 2004 02:59, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
> > This is with QT3.3 from a fresh snapshot. =C2=A0This is also what I
> > encountered when I tried to use =C2=A0the QT with SuSE's 'supplementary' =
KDE
> > 3.2.0.
> >
> > Is there something I need to add to my includes or other arguments to
> > `make'? =C2=A0
>
> According to
>
> 	http://doc.trolltech.com/3.3/opengl.html
>
> Qt's "configure" script will autodetect presence of OpenGL if you have it
> installed.
>
> > Does SuSE 9.0 have the development libs for OpenGL? =C2=A0
>
> Yes, of course: Install package XFree86-Mesa-devel*.rpm.
>
> > I believe OpenGL is installed since my OpenGL screensavers work.
> >
> > Suggestions?
>
> Check if XFree86-Mesa-devel is installed and if it isn't install it, run
> "configure" for your Qt lib again and rebuild Qt.

I'm not sure where I went wrong with the QT build, but it looks like my build=
=20
of the examples was going against the old QT libs.  I now have a build of QT =

with multithreading enabled, and that results in a different error.

qmake -project && qmake && make
g++ -c -pipe -Wall -W -O2  -DQT_NO_DEBUG -DQT_SHARED -DQT_THREAD_SUPPORT=20
-I/home/hattons/opt/com/trolltech/qt-x11-free-3.3.0b1/mkspecs/default -I. -I.=
=20
-I/home/hattons/opt/com/trolltech/qt-x11-free-3.3.0b1/include -o cube.o=20
cube.cpp
g++ -c -pipe -Wall -W -O2  -DQT_NO_DEBUG -DQT_SHARED -DQT_THREAD_SUPPORT=20
-I/home/hattons/opt/com/trolltech/qt-x11-free-3.3.0b1/mkspecs/default -I. -I.=
=20
-I/home/hattons/opt/com/trolltech/qt-x11-free-3.3.0b1/include -o main.o=20
main.cpp
g++ -Wl,-rpath,/home/hattons/opt/com/trolltech/qt-x11-free-3.3.0b1/lib -o cub=
e=20
cube.o main.o   -L/home/hattons/opt/com/trolltech/qt-x11-free-3.3.0b1/lib=20
-L/usr/X11R6/lib -lqt-mt -lXext -lX11 -lm=20
cube.o(.text+0x6ec): In function `Cube::faceAtPosition(QPoint const&)':
: undefined reference to `gluPickMatrix'
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
make: *** [cube] Error 1


I tried to build the same source on a different SuSE 9.0 box and encountered =

the same problem as described in my original message in this thread.  That=20
box has the SuSE 9.0 release QT and KDE.  There's something strange going on.

>
> CU
> --
> Stefan Hundhammer <sh(a)suse.de>                Penguin by conviction.

STH

--===============1692340517896626375==--


From lbox@nellgc.plus.com Sat Feb  7 14:20:03 2004
From: expatriate <lbox@nellgc.plus.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Olympus digital voice recorder
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 14:15:44 +0000
Message-ID: <4024F310.6020503@nellgc.plus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Greetings
I just purchased a voice recorder with USB. Needless to say, I haven't 
found any drivers for it (other than Windows). Does anyone know who I 
could contact at Olympus to see if they would support me in writing one?
TIA



--===============1445826283410941194==--


From igeys@esat.kuleuven.ac.be Tue Feb 10 10:27:54 2004
From: Indra Geys <igeys@esat.kuleuven.ac.be>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: XVisualInfo problem
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:27:53 +0100
Message-ID: <1076408873.17578.26.camel@ithaka>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello,

I am having problems with X window rendering and GLXFBConfig. If I try
the choose a GLXFBConfig with attribute GLX_ALPHA_SIZE,8, then I get an
error. I checked this and it seems that I don't have an XVisualInfo
which has a alpha color buffer different from 0, although xdpyinfo gives
that I have 12 visuals.
I have a quadro FX 500 graphical board, and I tried already to install
the latest four nvidia drivers for it. Nothing helps.
I am just changed from redhat 9.0 with nvidia driver 1.0-4363, and there
I had no problems.
Does someone know how I can get the appropriate visual, and can solve
the problem?

Indra Geys


--===============3605693271762021515==--


From andreas.roditakis@geod.baug.ethz.ch Thu Feb 12 22:29:04 2004
From: Andreas Roditakis <andreas.roditakis@geod.baug.ethz.ch>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: question
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:28:59 +0100
Message-ID: <402BFE2B.80802@geod.baug.ethz.ch>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello folks..!
I am looking forward to buy a IEEE 1394 PCI Adapter, in order to program 
a video/image  capture program.
The questions are:
1.Is it the correct decision to buy IEEE 1394? Maybe USB 2.0 is also 
alright for image capture with a digital camera. I wonder if digital 
cameras support Firewire or only usb 2.0.
2. Searching in the hardware database from SuSE i find not much info on 
IEEE Cards...Does anyone have experience with compatibility?

My specs:
Intel PC with P4 1.7
Suse 8.2 prof.

Thanx

-- 
--------------------------------------------
Andreas Roditakis
Institut fur Geodaisie und Photogrammetrie
ETH Honggerberg
8093 Zurich

e-mail : andreas.roditakis(a)geod.baug.ethz.ch
Tel. Office : 0041-1- 63 33063
Fax. Office : 0041-1- 63 31101



--===============7764675082123224070==--


From mail@webthatworks.it Mon Feb 16 23:27:08 2004
From: Ivan Sergio Borgonovo <mail@webthatworks.it>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: building kdesdk3 nightshot
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:20:47 +0100
Message-ID: <20040217002047.632f9b78@stige.webthatworks.it>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2759921657503811260=="

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I'm having blocking problems with Umbrello so I decided to compile
latest release.
I downloaded last src from SUSE, changed the version number in the
spec, substituted the original SUSE tarball with the newest.

This is what I got:

main.cpp: In member function `virtual int KBabelApp::newInstance()':
main.cpp:103: error: `restoringSession' undeclared (first use this
function)

It seems to be some error due to missing source, what should I install
to successfully build it?


--===============2759921657503811260==--


From gaf@blu.org Tue Feb 17 01:27:36 2004
From: Jerry Feldman <gaf@blu.org>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] building kdesdk3 nightshot
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:27:24 -0500
Message-ID: <20040216202724.22615084@gaf.gaf.net>
In-Reply-To: <20040217002047.632f9b78@stige.webthatworks.it>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3833749209018577688=="

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On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:20:47 +0100
Ivan Sergio Borgonovo <mail(a)webthatworks.it> wrote:

> I'm having blocking problems with Umbrello so I decided to compile
> latest release.
> I downloaded last src from SUSE, changed the version number in the
> spec, substituted the original SUSE tarball with the newest.
> 
> This is what I got:
> 
> main.cpp: In member function `virtual int KBabelApp::newInstance()':
> main.cpp:103: error: `restoringSession' undeclared (first use this
> function)
> 
> It seems to be some error due to missing source, what should I install
> to successfully build it?
> 
> 
> -- 
> To unsubscribe, email: suse-programming-e-unsubscribe(a)suse.com
> For additional commands, email: suse-programming-e-help(a)suse.com
> Archives can be found at:
> http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-programming-e

Why not download the source directly from the Umbrello site:
http://uml.sourceforge.net/download.php




- -- 
Jerry Feldman <gaf(a)blu.org>
Boston Linux and Unix user group
http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9
PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9
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--===============3833749209018577688==--


From mail@webthatworks.it Tue Feb 17 07:28:05 2004
From: Ivan Sergio Borgonovo <mail@webthatworks.it>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] building kdesdk3 nightshot
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:27:08 +0100
Message-ID: <20040217082708.7add1459@stige.webthatworks.it>
In-Reply-To: <20040216202724.22615084@gaf.gaf.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4725783145105497023=="

--===============4725783145105497023==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:27:24 -0500
Jerry Feldman <gaf(a)blu.org> wrote:

> Why not download the source directly from the Umbrello site:
> http://uml.sourceforge.net/download.php

Cos new KDE 3.2 rpm from SUSE doesn't have anymore a separate umbrello
srpm so there was no spec to start from for umbrello 1.2.

At the end I solved the problem mixing up the newest kdesdk source
with SUSE original.

I'll try to solve the problem in a more elegant way... now I've a
working Umbrello.


--===============4725783145105497023==--


From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Wed Feb 18 05:29:56 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: C++ Internationl Standard:I got what I asked for...almost
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:30:37 -0500
Message-ID: <200402180030.42416.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
In-Reply-To: <200402142158.15182.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7725950022003884997=="

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I don't know if and how this might be used by KDevelop, but it is a html
version of:

0 Accredited Standards Committee*              Doc No:X3J16/96-0225
  X3, INFORMATION PROCESSING SYSTEMS                  WG21/N1043
                                               Date:  2 December 1996
                                               Project:Programming Language
C++
                                               Reply to:Andrew Koenig
                                                      AT&T Research
                                                      PO Box 636
                                                      600 Mountain Avenue
                                                      Room 2C-306
                                                      Murray Hill, NJ 07974
USA
                                                      ark(a)research.att.com

0
                            Working Paper for
     Draft Proposed International Standard for Information Systems--
                         Programming Language C++

                                 Abstract

0 This document specifies the form and establishes the interpretation of
  programs expressed in the programming language C++.  Its purpose is to
  promote  portability, reliability, maintainability, and efficient exe-
  cution of C++ language programs on a  variety  of  computing  systems.
  This  document  is  subject  to  change without notice, and may not be
  referred to as a Standard until approved by  an  accredited  standards
  body.  Distribution of this document does not represent or warrant any
  degree of completeness or correctness of this document.  This document
  is  a working draft and is known to be incorect, incomplet, and incoN-
  sistent.

0 The information in this document is subject to change  without  notice
  and  shall not be construed as a commitment by any individual or orga-
  nization participating in the development of this document.  The indi-
  viduals  and  organizations  participating  in the development of this
  document assume no responsibility for any errors that  may  appear  in
  this  document, nor is responsibility assumed for the use or reliabil-
  ity of products based on the specification of this document.  Portions
  of  this document are derived from books by Bjarne Stroustrup (The C++
  Programming   Language,   Second   Edition;    Addison-Wesley,    ISBN
  0-201-53992-6,  copyright  ©  1991  AT&T)  and P.J. Plauger (The Draft
  Standard C++ Library; Prentice-Hall, ISBN 0-13-117003-1,  copyright  ©
  1995 P.J. Plauger).  All rights in these originals are reserved.

  _________________________
    * Operating  under the procedures of the American National Standards
  Institute (ANSI)
  Standards Secretariat: ITIC, 1250 Eye Street NW, Suite 200, Washington
  DC 20005

http://www.itga.com.au/~gnb/wp/cd2/
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--===============7725950022003884997==--


From walshfam@intergate.com Wed Feb 18 09:00:55 2004
From: Ryan Walsh <walshfam@intergate.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: How to get keyboard input without typing enter
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:51:53 -1000
Message-ID: <PFENIKJIOBKJCDHGLJKLGEBBCAAA.walshfam@intergate.com>
In-Reply-To: <1077079888.18051.ezmlm@suse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8418770678082819070=="

--===============8418770678082819070==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I'm just getting back into programming, and this is my first introduction to
LINUX.  I was wondering if anyone had a basic C program on how to read input
from the keyboard one character at a time (without having to press enter)...

Thanks!!


--===============8418770678082819070==--


From sh@suse.de Wed Feb 18 10:55:14 2004
From: Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject:
 Re: [suse-programming-e] How to get keyboard input without typing enter
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:53:21 +0100
Message-ID: <200402181153.21265.sh@suse.de>
In-Reply-To: <PFENIKJIOBKJCDHGLJKLGEBBCAAA.walshfam@intergate.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8731173950974265285=="

--===============8731173950974265285==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wednesday 18 February 2004 07:51, Ryan Walsh wrote:
> I'm just getting back into programming, and this is my first introduction
> to LINUX. =C2=A0I was wondering if anyone had a basic C program on how to r=
ead
> input from the keyboard one character at a time (without having to press
> enter)...

This doesn't work so easily with standard C. The C library only defines getc(=
)=20
and fgetc() which both read a single character, but it is intentionally=20
undefined after what user action this occurs.

Since C came into existence along with Unix systems, this makes a lot of=20
sense: Back in the old days of Unix (the early 1970s) users had terminals.=20
They didn'd sit in front of the system console (computers where huge and=20
noisy back then).

This is why even nowadays you need to switch the user's tty (teletypes were=20
the first terminals in the mid-60s) to a "raw" mode to prevent the user's=20
input from being buffered until he hits the "return" key - even if that tty=20
he is working on is really a Linux console or a xterm window.

You need to fiddle with ioctl() to do that, and since there were so many=20
different types of terminals back then a "terminal data base" (terminfo) came=
=20
into existence that helps you to query a specific terminal's capabilities, to=
=20
change its settings and to set the correct escape sequences to do even the=20
most basic things (like, position the cursor). And since this is so much=20
hassle a library was written around all that that does the dirty parts -=20
curses, or, today's "new" and improved version, ncurses.

So if you really, really still want to get single characters, read the=20
documentation about terminal modes, terminfo, and ncurses. If it isn't really=
=20
that important, you might as well accept the fact that users have to hit=20
"return" - or simply change a message from "hit any key" to "hit return" to=20
make your program continue. ;-)


I know that C compilers on that "other" platform (whose name I will not utter=
=20
here...) usually extend that plain C standard to something like cgetc() or=20
getch() to work around that, but this is no longer standard C.



Isn't it great to have that much heritage to look back upon? ;-)


CU
--=20
Stefan Hundhammer <sh(a)suse.de>                Penguin by conviction.
YaST2 Development
SuSE Linux AG
Nuernberg, Germany


--===============8731173950974265285==--


From gaf@blu.org Wed Feb 18 13:45:26 2004
From: Jerry Feldman <gaf@blu.org>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject:
 Re: [suse-programming-e] How to get keyboard input without typing enter
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 08:45:16 -0500
Message-ID: <20040218084516.76463774@gaf.gaf.net>
In-Reply-To: <PFENIKJIOBKJCDHGLJKLGEBBCAAA.walshfam@intergate.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3216796239126579296=="

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On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:51:53 -1000
"Ryan Walsh" <walshfam(a)intergate.com> wrote:

> I'm just getting back into programming, and this is my first
> introduction to LINUX.  I was wondering if anyone had a basic C
> program on how to read input from the keyboard one character at a time
> (without having to press enter)...
This is not part of standard C, but here is a program that I've had
hanging around. The Unix/C FAQ also includes something similar. 
I've been using this for a while. Essentially, you set the terminal to
raw mode, (stdin is file descriptor 0). You should use the basic I/O
(eg. read(2) not the stdio routines like getc(3)).
#include <stdio.h>
#include <string.h>
#include <unistd.h>
#include <termio.h>
#include <sys/ioctl.h>
static struct termio save_term;
void
SetRaw(int fd)
{
  struct termio s;
  
    /*
     * Get terminal modes.
     */
    (void)ioctl(fd, TCGETA, &s);
    
    /*
     * Save modes and set certain variables dependent on modes.
     */
    save_term = s;
      
      /*
       * Set the modes to the way we want them.
       */
      s.c_lflag &= ~(ICANON|ECHO|ECHOE|ECHOK|ECHONL);
      s.c_oflag |=  (OPOST|ONLCR|TAB3);
      s.c_oflag &= ~(OCRNL|ONOCR|ONLRET);
      s.c_cc[VMIN] = 1;
      s.c_cc[VTIME] = 0;
	(void)ioctl(fd, TCSETAW, &s);
}
static void 
TermRestore(int fd)
{
	/*
	 * Restore saved modes.
	 */
	s = save_term;
  (void)ioctl(fd, TCSETAW, &s);
}
int main(int argc, char **argv)
{
  int fd, n;
  char buf;
  fd = 0;
  /Set Term to raw mode */
  SetRaw(fd);
  printf("Enter a digit, q or x to quit\n");
  while(1) {
    n = read(fd, &buf, 1);
    if (n == 1) {
      switch(buf) {
      case 'q':
      case 'Q':
      case 'x':
      case 'X':
	printf("done\n");
        TermRestore(fd);
	return 0;
      case '1':
      case '2':
      case '3':
      case '4':
      case '5':
      case '6':
      case '7':
      case '8':
      case '9':
	printf(" %c ", buf);
	fflush(stdout);
      }
    } else if (n == 0) {
      printf("no input\n");
      TermRestore(fd);
      return 0;
    } else {
      TermRestore(fd);
      perror("read\n");
      return -1;
    }
  }
}



- -- 
Jerry Feldman <gaf(a)blu.org>
Boston Linux and Unix user group
http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9
PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9
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--===============3216796239126579296==--


From carl@bookmanassociates.com Wed Feb 18 16:39:48 2004
From: Carl Peto <carl@bookmanassociates.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject:
 Re: [suse-programming-e] How to get keyboard input without typing enter
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:39:39 +0000
Message-ID: <003a01c3f63d$cda9a170$0c00a8c0@bookmanheadoffice.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <20040218084516.76463774@gaf.gaf.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7750056810877476769=="

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It might be a good idea to take a quick look at the
Serial-Programming-HOWTO.

Depending on your distribution this is most likely in...

/usr/share/doc/howto/en/html/Serial-Programming-HOWTO/index.html

Chapter 2 gives a good introduction (taught me a lot anyway) to the simplest
ways of waiting for input from a tty.

Even though it sounds like you're not using a serial line, I think a lot of
the principles will carry across and it's very concise.




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jerry Feldman" <gaf(a)blu.org>
To: <suse-programming-e(a)suse.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] How to get keyboard input without typing
enter


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:51:53 -1000
> "Ryan Walsh" <walshfam(a)intergate.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm just getting back into programming, and this is my first
> > introduction to LINUX.  I was wondering if anyone had a basic C
> > program on how to read input from the keyboard one character at a time
> > (without having to press enter)...
> This is not part of standard C, but here is a program that I've had
> hanging around. The Unix/C FAQ also includes something similar.
> I've been using this for a while. Essentially, you set the terminal to
> raw mode, (stdin is file descriptor 0). You should use the basic I/O
> (eg. read(2) not the stdio routines like getc(3)).
> #include <stdio.h>
> #include <string.h>
> #include <unistd.h>
> #include <termio.h>
> #include <sys/ioctl.h>
> static struct termio save_term;
> void
> SetRaw(int fd)
> {
>   struct termio s;
>
>     /*
>      * Get terminal modes.
>      */
>     (void)ioctl(fd, TCGETA, &s);
>
>     /*
>      * Save modes and set certain variables dependent on modes.
>      */
>     save_term = s;
>
>       /*
>        * Set the modes to the way we want them.
>        */
>       s.c_lflag &= ~(ICANON|ECHO|ECHOE|ECHOK|ECHONL);
>       s.c_oflag |=  (OPOST|ONLCR|TAB3);
>       s.c_oflag &= ~(OCRNL|ONOCR|ONLRET);
>       s.c_cc[VMIN] = 1;
>       s.c_cc[VTIME] = 0;
> (void)ioctl(fd, TCSETAW, &s);
> }
> static void
> TermRestore(int fd)
> {
> /*
> * Restore saved modes.
> */
> s = save_term;
>   (void)ioctl(fd, TCSETAW, &s);
> }
> int main(int argc, char **argv)
> {
>   int fd, n;
>   char buf;
>   fd = 0;
>   /Set Term to raw mode */
>   SetRaw(fd);
>   printf("Enter a digit, q or x to quit\n");
>   while(1) {
>     n = read(fd, &buf, 1);
>     if (n == 1) {
>       switch(buf) {
>       case 'q':
>       case 'Q':
>       case 'x':
>       case 'X':
> printf("done\n");
>         TermRestore(fd);
> return 0;
>       case '1':
>       case '2':
>       case '3':
>       case '4':
>       case '5':
>       case '6':
>       case '7':
>       case '8':
>       case '9':
> printf(" %c ", buf);
> fflush(stdout);
>       }
>     } else if (n == 0) {
>       printf("no input\n");
>       TermRestore(fd);
>       return 0;
>     } else {
>       TermRestore(fd);
>       perror("read\n");
>       return -1;
>     }
>   }
> }
>
>
>
> - -- 
> Jerry Feldman <gaf(a)blu.org>
> Boston Linux and Unix user group
> http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9
> PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFAM2xs+wA+1cUGHqkRAtc5AKCIm5+EYQaHJ0yKhm6p+PsUDPOAsACeMtU3
> DM8CHhdsUH4oDxff6q1wivg=
> =10Rr
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> -- 
> To unsubscribe, email: suse-programming-e-unsubscribe(a)suse.com
> For additional commands, email: suse-programming-e-help(a)suse.com
> Archives can be found at: http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-programming-e
>


--===============7750056810877476769==--


From gaf@blu.org Wed Feb 18 19:43:21 2004
From: Jerry Feldman <gaf@blu.org>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject:
 Re: [suse-programming-e] How to get keyboard input without typing enter
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:43:13 -0500
Message-ID: <20040218144313.37933816@gaf.gaf.net>
In-Reply-To: <003a01c3f63d$cda9a170$0c00a8c0@bookmanheadoffice.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7947539230834047219=="

--===============7947539230834047219==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:39:39 -0000
"Carl Peto" <carl(a)bookmanassociates.com> wrote:

> It might be a good idea to take a quick look at the
> Serial-Programming-HOWTO.
> 
> Depending on your distribution this is most likely in...
> 
> /usr/share/doc/howto/en/html/Serial-Programming-HOWTO/index.html
> 
> Chapter 2 gives a good introduction (taught me a lot anyway) to the
> simplest ways of waiting for input from a tty.
> 
> Even though it sounds like you're not using a serial line, I think a
> lot of the principles will carry across and it's very concise.
That is an excellent document, but it goes quite e bit beyond what the
original poster wanted, and that is to get a single character from the
keyboard (eg. stdin, essentially similar to the Windows conio call (I
think it was getch()).  But, that howto is excellent in terms of telling
the reader about the various flags. 

- -- 
Jerry Feldman <gaf(a)blu.org>
Boston Linux and Unix user group
http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9
PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9
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--===============7947539230834047219==--


From gires@telkom.net Thu Feb 19 06:19:38 2004
From: gires <gires@telkom.net>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: About Function
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:19:01 +0700
Message-ID: <007401c3f6b0$4afd7f30$1801a8c0@eclub14>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7808751524080037672=="

--===============7808751524080037672==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'm new to C in linux. Btw, I'm having a problem with function such as pow(x)=
, sqrt(x), etc. For example, i wrote a program like this :=20

#include<stdio.h>
#include<math.h>

main()
{
   float a, b;
  =20
   b =3D pow(a, 3);
   printf("Result is : %f\n", b);
}     =20
when i try to compile it using gcc, it keeps telling me an error like this --=
---->    undefined 'pow' in main ....bla bla bla
anyone can help?

--===============7808751524080037672==--


From matobias@ucalgary.ca Thu Feb 19 06:28:30 2004
From: Matthew A Tobiasz <matobias@ucalgary.ca>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] About Function
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 23:21:42 -0700
Message-ID: <200402182321.42601.matobias@ucalgary.ca>
In-Reply-To: <007401c3f6b0$4afd7f30$1801a8c0@eclub14>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7636773413836048492=="

--===============7636773413836048492==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

You need to link the math library when you compile.  So if your file is calle=
d=20
uaioe.c  (and with  "#include <math.h>" ) then at the command line you do:

% gcc uaioe.c -o uaioe -lm

The "-lm" links up the math library.


Stay Fresh!
Matthew

> I'm new to C in linux. Btw, I'm having a problem with function such as
> pow(x), sqrt(x), etc. For example, i wrote a program like this :
>
> #include<stdio.h>
> #include<math.h>
>
> main()
> {
>    float a, b;
>
>    b =3D pow(a, 3);
>    printf("Result is : %f\n", b);
> }
> when i try to compile it using gcc, it keeps telling me an error like this
> ------>    undefined 'pow' in main ....bla bla bla anyone can help?


--===============7636773413836048492==--


From derekfountain@yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 19 06:34:28 2004
From: Derek Fountain <derekfountain@yahoo.co.uk>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] About Function
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:35:07 +0800
Message-ID: <200402191435.07579.derekfountain@yahoo.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <007401c3f6b0$4afd7f30$1801a8c0@eclub14>
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> #include<stdio.h>
> #include<math.h>
>
> main()
> {
>    float a, b;
>
>    b = pow(a, 3);
>    printf("Result is : %f\n", b);
> }
> when i try to compile it using gcc, it keeps telling me an error like this
> ------>    undefined 'pow' in main ....bla bla bla anyone can help?

Works for me. Are you putting "-lm" in your compile line to pull in the math 
library?

-- 
> eatapple
core dump


--===============7403432213601495092==--


From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Mon Feb 23 03:37:38 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: The cplusplus.com tutorial (on-line) and other resources.
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:39:14 -0500
Message-ID: <200402222239.21247.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
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This message turned into a bigger listing than I originally intended.  I gues=
s=20
I should put to gether a web page of C++ resources I like.

This may have been posted before, but it seems worth calling people's=20
attention to again.  List membership changes over time, and sometimes things =

like this are forgotten.  I haven't read all the tutorial, but it is the kind=
=20
of thing that I should have read at the beginning of my C++ ordeal...uh I=20
mean to say learning effort.
http://www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/index.html

I know I posted this title before.  It's along the same lines, and is what I =

actually used as a 'jump start'. =20
_Essentials of C++_
http://www.booksmatter.com/b0878917489.htm

Another short and sweet treatment of some aspects of C++ is:
C++ Notes: Table of Contents
http://www.fredosaurus.com/notes-cpp/index.html

Also worth mentioning is:

C++ GUI Programming with Qt 3 by Jasmin Blanchette and Mark Summerfield

"This is the first official Qt book, written by two veteran Trolls. The book =

is now available in US bookstores and from online booksellers."
http://www.trolltech.com/

It's taken me about 100 pages to adjust to the presentation style. But if you=
=20
just understand that they treat code listings as paragraphs, and they always =

present the code, and then describe it, usually with very little prior=20
introduction, the text will probably read smoothly for you.

I guess it's a sign that I am learning the C++ language when I look at a page=
=20
full of code and feel relieved that I will almost certainly get through it=20
fastart than a page of prose.

STH
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From carl@bookmanassociates.com Mon Feb 23 09:04:30 2004
From: Carl Peto <carl@bookmanassociates.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] The cplusplus.com tutorial (on-line) and
 other resources.
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:02:53 +0000
Message-ID: <003301c3f9eb$d66db290$0c00a8c0@bookmanheadoffice.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <200402222239.21247.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
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At the risk of starting a flame war (please, no flames on this excellent
list!)...

Does anyone know if there are good technical reasons why C was used to
program the Linux kernel rather than C++ or one of the more modern OO
languages?  Surely the reuse inherent in OO would improve solid reuse and so
shorten testing times as OO does when used well elsewhere in the programming
world?

I have often heard people imply that C is more powerful for writing faster
code as it allows more low-level features like register directives, etc. but
that seems an unlikely reason not to use C++.  Further, many places (e.g.
the tty code I have been studying) seem to make extensive use of structures,
with most work on those structures being done by passing a pointer to the
structure to a procedure/function as the first parameter - the
procedure/function then does the work (modifying the structure data,
creating a new structure, destroying and freeing memory, etc.) - this is
very much like a method call, yet not perfectly formalised so that the
encapsulation, inheritance and polymorphism are slightly patchy (although
the "line discipline" code there looks very much like virtual methods).

The only thing I can think of is that extensive reuse might, in the end, be
worse than rewriting core functionality so that it would be all too easy to
get into "don't ever touch that object, it's core, and tested thoroughly -
instead derive from it", the performance implications being obvious.  Maybe
sometimes constant "breaking" of core areas to upgrade them to perfection is
"a good thing"?

I am probably being naive, please forgive me if so!  I do not mean to offend
anyone at all, I am just very new to the Linux kernel and Linux programming
in general and rather curious about these things.

Regards,
Carl Peto

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons(a)globalsymmetry.com>
To: "Suse Programming List" <suse-programming-e(a)suse.com>
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 3:39 AM
Subject: [suse-programming-e] The cplusplus.com tutorial (on-line) and other
resources.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

This message turned into a bigger listing than I originally intended.  I
guess
I should put to gether a web page of C++ resources I like.

This may have been posted before, but it seems worth calling people's
attention to again.  List membership changes over time, and sometimes things
like this are forgotten.  I haven't read all the tutorial, but it is the
kind
of thing that I should have read at the beginning of my C++ ordeal...uh I
mean to say learning effort.
http://www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/index.html

I know I posted this title before.  It's along the same lines, and is what I
actually used as a 'jump start'.
_Essentials of C++_
http://www.booksmatter.com/b0878917489.htm

Another short and sweet treatment of some aspects of C++ is:
C++ Notes: Table of Contents
http://www.fredosaurus.com/notes-cpp/index.html

Also worth mentioning is:

C++ GUI Programming with Qt 3 by Jasmin Blanchette and Mark Summerfield

"This is the first official Qt book, written by two veteran Trolls. The book
is now available in US bookstores and from online booksellers."
http://www.trolltech.com/

It's taken me about 100 pages to adjust to the presentation style. But if
you
just understand that they treat code listings as paragraphs, and they always
present the code, and then describe it, usually with very little prior
introduction, the text will probably read smoothly for you.

I guess it's a sign that I am learning the C++ language when I look at a
page
full of code and feel relieved that I will almost certainly get through it
fastart than a page of prose.

STH
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From mail@webthatworks.it Mon Feb 23 09:22:20 2004
From: Ivan Sergio Borgonovo <mail@webthatworks.it>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] The cplusplus.com tutorial (on-line) and
 other resources.
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:22:18 +0100
Message-ID: <20040223102218.49f30351@stige.webthatworks.it>
In-Reply-To: <003301c3f9eb$d66db290$0c00a8c0@bookmanheadoffice.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:02:53 -0000
"Carl Peto" <carl(a)bookmanassociates.com> wrote:

> Does anyone know if there are good technical reasons why C was used
> to program the Linux kernel rather than C++ or one of the more
> modern OO languages?  Surely the reuse inherent in OO would improve

I think the main reason was that at that time gcc C++ was not
production ready... or C++ as a whole was not production ready.

Anyway if you google it I bet you'll find some official answer... the
FAQ of linux-kernel mailing list has some
http://www.tux.org/lkml/#s15-3


--===============4997564450108915881==--


From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Mon Feb 23 11:51:30 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] The cplusplus.com tutorial (on-line) and
 other resources.
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 06:51:56 -0500
Message-ID: <200402230652.02907.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
In-Reply-To: <20040223102218.49f30351@stige.webthatworks.it>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Monday 23 February 2004 04:22 am, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:02:53 -0000
>
> "Carl Peto" <carl(a)bookmanassociates.com> wrote:
> > Does anyone know if there are good technical reasons why C was used
> > to program the Linux kernel rather than C++ or one of the more
> > modern OO languages?  Surely the reuse inherent in OO would improve
>
> I think the main reason was that at that time gcc C++ was not
> production ready... or C++ as a whole was not production ready.

Why do you speak in the past tense? ;-) Sorry.  I'm just a bit disappointed=20
with a few aspects of C++.  No doubt it represents a very significant advance=
=20
in many ways.  There are, however, a few places where the design was=20
seriously encumbered by what I believe to have been unnecessary concerns=20
about C compatability.  There are a few (many) places where Stroustrup seems =

to be a bit frustrated with the restrictions placed on C++ by the 'C=20
compatability extremists'.=20

There are also, IMO, too many 'conveniences' built in.  That is, slick ways o=
f=20
accomplishing things that really aren't that difficult to accomplish in more =

pedestrian ways.  I'm not that experienced with the language, but I have the =

sense that some of these features may actually increase the amount of work=20
expended in a the lifecycle of a project.  If every moderately experienced=20
programmer is sent flipping through the pages of his favorite C++ book to=20
understand some arcane expression, the intended convenience is lost.

I find the division of header and implementation to cause programs to be hard=
=20
to follow.  One feature I would like to seen in KDevelop (I believe I=20
actually submitted this as a wishlist item) is the ability to view both the=20
implementation and header in the same frame.  I wish more C++ programmers=20
understood the advantages that some Java features and practices provide.  It =

may simply be my lack of experience, but for me, locating comperable=20
information in a C++ development environment is more difficult and time=20
consumming than in a similar Java environment.

As I've suggested, some of that is simply practice.  The same types of things=
=20
can be accomplished with C++.  It's just not part of the culture. =20

I was wondering if a new version of C++ could be introduced which would=20
address some of it's shortcomings. An example of the kind of thing that=20
bothers me about C++ is discussed on page 244 of Stroustrup's TC++PL 3rd Ed, =

SE. "The reason for the dissimilar treatment of classes and built-in types=20
are C compatibility and fear of run-time overhead."  I read that as: 'If I=20
had my way, it wouldn't be so fubar'.

> Anyway if you google it I bet you'll find some official answer... the
> FAQ of linux-kernel mailing list has some
> http://www.tux.org/lkml/#s15-3

"Should the kernel use object-oriented programming techniques? Actually, it=20
already does. The VFS (Virtual Filesystem Switch) is a prime example of=20
object-oriented programming techniques. There are objects with public and=20
private data, methods and inheritance. This just happens to be written in C. =

Another example of object-oriented programming is Xt (the X Intrinsics=20
Toolkit), also written in C. What's important about object-oriented=20
programming is the techniques, not the languages used. "

This is an important point.  You *can*, and people *do* write OO code in C.  =

You *can* and people *do* write non-OO code in C++.  I am of the opinion that=
=20
C++ is not an 'object oriented' programming language.  It is an 'object=20
inclined' programming language.
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From tinus@tinus.ath.cx Mon Feb 23 12:03:55 2004
From: Martijn Houtman <tinus@tinus.ath.cx>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Qt OpenGL qt/qt-mt linking problems
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:05:18 +0100
Message-ID: <200402231305.18805.tinus@tinus.ath.cx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello,

When compiling the examples in the Qt examples dir (opengl gears example) and 
bumped into some errors. Firstly, I get the following linking errors:

gear.o(.gnu.linkonce.d._ZTV10GearWidget+0xc): undefined reference to 
`QGLWidget::className() const'
gear.o(.gnu.linkonce.d._ZTV10GearWidget+0x10): undefined reference to 
`QGLWidget::qt_cast(char const*)'
gear.o(.gnu.linkonce.d._ZTV10GearWidget+0x14): undefined reference to 
`QGLWidget::qt_invoke(int, QUObject*)'

Now, when I replace the -lqt in the Makefile by -lqt-mt, they link just fine. 
Is this a bug in the Makefile's from Trolltech, or some weird behaviour in 
SuSE's qt libs? These are the (unsupported?) qt3-3.3.0-47 libs from 
supplementary/KDE/update_for_9.0.

Ok, replacing the qt with qt-mt works fine, but then the output is scrambled 
(take a look at http://www.suse-irc.org/temp/snapshot1.png).
This  did not occur with the regular qt libs SuSE 9.0 provides, but then I 
cannot run KDE 3.2 :)

Thanks in advance,
-- 
tinus.

--===============1783997650916012097==--


From alan@ibgames.com Mon Feb 23 12:35:48 2004
From: alan@ibgames.com
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] The cplusplus.com tutorial (on-line) and
 other resources.
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 12:33:46 +0000
Message-ID: <4039F32A.8952.79FAF02@localhost>
In-Reply-To: <003301c3f9eb$d66db290$0c00a8c0@bookmanheadoffice.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On 23 Feb 2004 at 9:02, Carl Peto wrote:

From:           	"Carl Peto" <carl(a)bookmanassociates.com>
To:             	"Steven T. Hatton" <hattons(a)globalsymmetry.com>,
       	"Suse Programming List" <suse-programming-e(a)suse.com>
Date sent:      	Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:02:53 -0000
Subject:        	Re: [suse-programming-e] The cplusplus.com tutorial (on-line=
) and other resources.

> At the risk of starting a flame war (please, no flames on this excellent
> list!)...
>=20
> Does anyone know if there are good technical reasons why C was used to
> program the Linux kernel rather than C++ or one of the more modern OO
> languages?  Surely the reuse inherent in OO would improve solid reuse
> and so shorten testing times as OO does when used well elsewhere in the
> programming world?

Stop right there before you start a religious war!

There are many reasons why people prefer different languages, not only=20
because of the facilities that the languages offer, but because some=20
languages fit that person's mindset better than others.=20

I've programmed for many years in both C and C++, and I've also=20
programmed in Fortran IV, Forth, Pascal, Delphi, a little Python and=20
even Basic. I prefer C++, because I think it's more expressive and less=20
error prone, but I see nothing wrong in programming in C or any other=20
language.

Good progamming transcend the specific language you are using - I've=20
seen spaghetti code programmed in Pascal. Far important than arguing=20
about what language, is to learn programming skills - how to design=20
programs, data structures and algorithms. Once you have that skill you=20
can choose the most appropriate language and pick up its essentials=20
relatively rapidly.

alan
--=20
http://www.ibgames.net/alan
Registered Linux user #6822  http://counter.li.org
Winding Down - Weekly Tech Newsletter - subscribe at
http://www.ibgames.net/alan/winding/mailing.html


--===============4745462955031673595==--


From mail@webthatworks.it Mon Feb 23 12:51:35 2004
From: Ivan Sergio Borgonovo <mail@webthatworks.it>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] The cplusplus.com tutorial (on-line) and
 other resources.
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:51:32 +0100
Message-ID: <20040223135132.5abd7ad1@stige.webthatworks.it>
In-Reply-To: <200402230652.02907.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 06:51:56 -0500
"Steven T. Hatton" <hattons(a)globalsymmetry.com> wrote:

> > I think the main reason was that at that time gcc C++ was not
> > production ready... or C++ as a whole was not production ready.
> 
> Why do you speak in the past tense? ;-) Sorry.  I'm just a bit

Do you prefer Java? ;) Try to ask to Linus to rewrite the kernel in
Java ;)

> disappointed with a few aspects of C++.  No doubt it represents a

Agree... at least considering gcc support and in general libraries,
some "modern" concepts of programming (threads, parallel computing,
interface with OS, network) and as pointed out in the linux-kernel ml
FAQ exceptions can be a PITA in some environment.

There has been a lot of improvement on this side anyway, but I can't
still forecast any improvement for adoption of good libraries to
interfac

> There are also, IMO, too many 'conveniences' built in.  That is,
> slick ways of accomplishing things that really aren't that difficult
> to accomplish in more pedestrian ways.  I'm not that experienced
> with the language, but I have the sense that some of these features
> may actually increase the amount of work expended in a the lifecycle
> of a project.  If every moderately experienced programmer is sent
> flipping through the pages of his favorite C++ book to understand
> some arcane expression, the intended convenience is lost.

Disagree. I think in all these cases your freedom of choice is
preserved.

> frame.  I wish more C++ programmers understood the advantages that
> some Java features and practices provide.  It may simply be my lack

Those features comes at a cost and in Java you have not "freedom of
choice".

> of experience, but for me, locating comperable information in a C++
> development environment is more difficult and time consumming than
> in a similar Java environment.

Guess why.
Standardizing a language is a war. Many compromises have to be
reached.

> I was wondering if a new version of C++ could be introduced which
> would address some of it's shortcomings. An example of the kind of
> thing that bothers me about C++ is discussed on page 244 of
> Stroustrup's TC++PL 3rd Ed, SE. "The reason for the dissimilar
> treatment of classes and built-in types are C compatibility and fear
> of run-time overhead."  I read that as: 'If I had my way, it
> wouldn't be so fubar'.

LOL... maybe.

> This is an important point.  You *can*, and people *do* write OO
> code in C.  You *can* and people *do* write non-OO code in C++.  I
> am of the opinion that C++ is not an 'object oriented' programming
> language.  It is an 'object inclined' programming language.

C++ is a tool, a tool that helps writing OOP more than C. And you can
shoot at yourself in the foot with a lot of different tools.


OK... rumbling finished ;)


--===============5766869351501708170==--


From gaf@blu.org Mon Feb 23 14:26:19 2004
From: Jerry Feldman <gaf@blu.org>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] The cplusplus.com tutorial (on-line) and
 other resources.
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:26:09 -0500
Message-ID: <20040223092609.10de751a@gaf.gaf.net>
In-Reply-To: <20040223102218.49f30351@stige.webthatworks.it>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:22:18 +0100
Ivan Sergio Borgonovo <mail(a)webthatworks.it> wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:02:53 -0000
> "Carl Peto" <carl(a)bookmanassociates.com> wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone know if there are good technical reasons why C was used
> > to program the Linux kernel rather than C++ or one of the more
> > modern OO languages?  Surely the reuse inherent in OO would improve
> 
> I think the main reason was that at that time gcc C++ was not
> production ready... or C++ as a whole was not production ready.
> 
> Anyway if you google it I bet you'll find some official answer... the
> FAQ of linux-kernel mailing list has some
> http://www.tux.org/lkml/#s15-3
I was going to respond, but all I would be doing would be to paraphrase
the above excellent article. 

- -- 
Jerry Feldman <gaf(a)blu.org>
Boston Linux and Unix user group
http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9
PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9
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From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Mon Feb 23 14:49:06 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] C++ pitfalls: was:The cplusplus.com tutorial
 (on-line) and other resources.
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:50:39 -0500
Message-ID: <200402230950.51846.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
In-Reply-To: <20040223135132.5abd7ad1@stige.webthatworks.it>
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This thread has taken an unexpected direction, so I decided to change the=20
subject header.

On Monday 23 February 2004 07:51 am, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 06:51:56 -0500
>
> "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons(a)globalsymmetry.com> wrote:
> > > I think the main reason was that at that time gcc C++ was not
> > > production ready... or C++ as a whole was not production ready.
> >
> > Why do you speak in the past tense? ;-) Sorry.  I'm just a bit
>
> Do you prefer Java? ;) Try to ask to Linus to rewrite the kernel in
> Java ;)
I haven't looked at the gcc Java compiler, but, if I'm not mistaken, it will =

produce (non-portable) native executable binaries.  Don't laugh too hard at=20
the idea of doing such a thing in Java.  I am sure it won't be called the=20
Linux kernel, and I don't believe it is all that likely to see an OS kernel=20
written in Java.  OTOH, I recall a discussion a few years back about running =

the KDE on Windows NT.  People were telling the guy who suggested it was=20
possible that he didn't know what he was talking about.  I said it was=20
possible in theory, but unlikely in practice, well:

http://kde-cygwin.sourceforge.net/kde3/screenshots.php

Java has some very nice features/aspects that C++ lacks.  Some of these could=
=20
be addressed if a standard abstraction layer api were adopted by a large=20
enough community of developers.  When I say "abstraction layer api", I mean=20
to distinguish this form abstraction layer implementation.  An example of an =

abstraction layer implementation is the Netscape Portable Runtime=20
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/nspr/. This might serve as a precedent for=20
establishing such an api, but the api I'm suggesting would be a specification=
=20
from 'above'. IOW, as long as it supported the applications' requests for=20
system resources, it would be a valid implementation.

I'm not sure how POSIX fits into such a picture.=20

> > frame.  I wish more C++ programmers understood the advantages that
> > some Java features and practices provide.  It may simply be my lack
>
> Those features comes at a cost and in Java you have not "freedom of
> choice".
Here's a good example of how C++ can be more difficult to deal with than Java=
,=20
and also a good example where standardization could improve the situation. =20
The Xerces-J doesn't cause any issues that I am aware of regarding strings,=20
and how they are implemented.  I am currently working on a Qt project that=20
uses XML.  I was considering using Xerces, rather than the QDOM support in=20
Qt.  But translating Xerces string representation to and from QString is=20
going to require some effort.  This is the API documentation for Xerces=20
XMLString class:

 http://xml.apache.org/xerces-c/apiDocs/classXMLString.html

> > of experience, but for me, locating comperable information in a C++
> > development environment is more difficult and time consumming than
> > in a similar Java environment.
>
> Guess why.
> Standardizing a language is a war. Many compromises have to be
> reached.

I believe another reason is simply perspective and attitude.  C++ coders are =

accustomed to that kind of environment, and just assume learing to work with =

C++ means learing to navigate your way through an unfamiliar maze of header=20
files and libraries.  Java was designed to avoid a lot of those problems,=20
but, to a large extent, the Java community believes such obscurity should be =

avoided, and mechanisims for automating the location of resources are a high =

priority.

I own a copy of MS Visual C++, but the idea of working in XP for a long enoug=
h=20
time to learn to use it is too distasteful to consider seriously.  I suspect,=
=20
however, it and Borland's C++ Builder both provide a lot of the kinds of=20
support I'm talking about.

> C++ is a tool, a tool that helps writing OOP more than C. And you can
> shoot at yourself in the foot with a lot of different tools.

I had a professor who compared C and C++ coding with sword dancing on ice.  I=
f=20
you're good at it, it's quite impressive, but if your not, you're likely to=20
hurt yourself.

STH
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From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Mon Feb 23 16:05:58 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] Qt OpenGL qt/qt-mt linking problems
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 11:04:50 -0500
Message-ID: <200402231104.57044.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
In-Reply-To: <200402231305.18805.tinus@tinus.ath.cx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Monday 23 February 2004 07:05 am, Martijn Houtman wrote:
> Hello,
>
> When compiling the examples in the Qt examples dir (opengl gears example)
> and bumped into some errors. Firstly, I get the following linking errors:
>
> gear.o(.gnu.linkonce.d._ZTV10GearWidget+0xc): undefined reference to
> `QGLWidget::className() const'
> gear.o(.gnu.linkonce.d._ZTV10GearWidget+0x10): undefined reference to
> `QGLWidget::qt_cast(char const*)'
> gear.o(.gnu.linkonce.d._ZTV10GearWidget+0x14): undefined reference to
> `QGLWidget::qt_invoke(int, QUObject*)'
>
> Now, when I replace the -lqt in the Makefile by -lqt-mt, they link just
> fine. Is this a bug in the Makefile's from Trolltech, or some weird
> behaviour in SuSE's qt libs? These are the (unsupported?) qt3-3.3.0-47 libs
> from supplementary/KDE/update_for_9.0.
>
> Ok, replacing the qt with qt-mt works fine, but then the output is
> scrambled (take a look at http://www.suse-irc.org/temp/snapshot1.png).
> This  did not occur with the regular qt libs SuSE 9.0 provides, but then I
> cannot run KDE 3.2 :)
>
> Thanks in advance,
> --
> tinus.

Quite strange.  I was unable to make gear at all until I added -lGL to the 

LIBS     = $(SUBLIBS) -L/usr/lib/ -L$(QTDIR)/lib/ -L/usr/X11R6/lib/ -lqt-mt 
- -lGL -lXext -lX11 -lm 
in Makefile.  After that it compiled and ran perfectly.  I copied the example 
form $QTDIR/doc/examples/opengl/gear/, deleted the gear and gear.o, Ran qmake 
- -project, qmake, hacked the Makefile as above, and ran make successfully.

 qmake -version
Qmake version: 1.07a (Qt 3.3.0)
Qmake is free software from Trolltech AS.

STH
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From raffo@neuronet.pitt.edu Mon Feb 23 16:44:01 2004
From: "Rafael E. Herrera" <raffo@neuronet.pitt.edu>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject:
 Re: [suse-programming-e] WAS "A good book on C programming",  now an APPOLOGY
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:44:59 -0500
Message-ID: <403A03DB.1020207@neuronet.pitt.edu>
In-Reply-To: <200312272143.55135.gavin.henry@magicfx.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Gavin Henry wrote:
> I was had this pointed out to me, by Simon Perreault <nomis80(a)nomis80.org=
>=20
> (with my reply):
>=20
> "On Saturday 27 Dec 2003 8:49 pm, you wrote:
>>> 1) Please do not cross-post. (This means sending the same message to many
>>> lists.)
>=20
> OK, guilty, but I wanted a varied response, as different people subscribe to
> different lists.

If you are asking the same question, common sense would say to CC the lists
that you know of.

>>> 2) Please stay on topic. This has nothing to do with Fedora.
>=20
> Fedora is GNU/Linux, there are C programmers, like you that use Fedora, and=
 it
> is a general discussion list. What's the problem? I'm not asking for money
> for for you to join some crazy scheme.
>=20
> This kind of attitude annoys me about GNU/Linux, I am not wasting anyones
> time, so I don't see what the problem is."

In many mailing lists some individuals assume the role of guardians or
moderators of discussions, even though the lists are open. I think your
question is legitimate to any Linux related mailing list. Attitudes like his
are best ignored, these individuals are usually very close minded and
seldom have anything to contribute.

As for your question, I would visit your local bookstore chain, there
are a number of Linux-related C and C++ programming books.

If you have more specific questions about C programming, there is a
mailing list: http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linuxcprogramming


Keep asking questions.
--=20
   Rafael

--===============8514246152510580904==--


From tinus@tinus.ath.cx Mon Feb 23 16:55:29 2004
From: Martijn Houtman <tinus@tinus.ath.cx>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] Qt OpenGL qt/qt-mt linking problems
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:56:53 +0100
Message-ID: <200402231756.53714.tinus@tinus.ath.cx>
In-Reply-To: <200402231104.57044.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Monday 23 February 2004 17:04, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
> On Monday 23 February 2004 07:05 am, Martijn Houtman wrote:
*snip*
> Quite strange.  I was unable to make gear at all until I added -lGL to the
>
> LIBS     = $(SUBLIBS) -L/usr/lib/ -L$(QTDIR)/lib/ -L/usr/X11R6/lib/ -lqt-mt
> -lGL -lXext -lX11 -lm
> in Makefile.  After that it compiled and ran perfectly.  I copied the
> example form $QTDIR/doc/examples/opengl/gear/, deleted the gear and gear.o,
> Ran qmake -project, qmake, hacked the Makefile as above, and ran make
> successfully.

Exactly what version of qt rpm did you use? Or if you compiled it yourself, 
what flags did you pass configure?

The rpm also comes with precompiled binaries, which work just fine. So I 
copied the binary 'box' to 'box.old' and recompiled the new box with the 
-lqt-mt and -lGL. Now take a look at these ldd outputs:

tinus:/usr/lib/qt3/doc/examples/opengl/box # ldd box.old
                libqt-mt.so.3 => /usr/lib/qt3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 (0x4002f000)
        libpng.so.3 => /usr/lib/libpng.so.3 (0x40774000)
        libz.so.1 => /lib/libz.so.1 (0x407a2000)
        libGLU.so.1 => /usr/lib/libGLU.so.1 (0x407b1000)
        libGL.so.1 => /usr/lib/tls/libGL.so.1 (0x4082f000)
        libXmu.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXmu.so.6 (0x4089a000)
        libXi.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXi.so.6 (0x408b0000)
        libXrender.so.1 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXrender.so.1 (0x408b8000)
        libXrandr.so.2 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXrandr.so.2 (0x408c0000)
        libXcursor.so.1 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXcursor.so.1 (0x408c4000)
        libXft.so.2 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXft.so.2 (0x408ce000)
        libfreetype.so.6 => /usr/lib/libfreetype.so.6 (0x408e0000)
        libfontconfig.so.1 => /usr/lib/libfontconfig.so.1 (0x40936000)
        libXext.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXext.so.6 (0x4095e000)
        libX11.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6 (0x4096c000)
        libSM.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libSM.so.6 (0x40a68000)
        libICE.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libICE.so.6 (0x40a72000)
        libdl.so.2 => /lib/libdl.so.2 (0x40a89000)
        libpthread.so.0 => /lib/i686/libpthread.so.0 (0x40a8c000)
        libstdc++.so.5 => /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.5 (0x40add000)
        libm.so.6 => /lib/i686/libm.so.6 (0x40b9d000)
        libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x40bc0000)
        libc.so.6 => /lib/i686/libc.so.6 (0x40bc9000)
        libGLcore.so.1 => /usr/lib/tls/libGLcore.so.1 (0x40cfc000)
        libXt.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXt.so.6 (0x411dc000)
        libexpat.so.0 => /usr/lib/libexpat.so.0 (0x41230000)
        /lib/ld-linux.so.2 => /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0x40000000)
tinus:/usr/lib/qt3/doc/examples/opengl/box # ldd box
                libqt-mt.so.3 => /usr/lib/qt3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 (0x4002f000)
        libXext.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXext.so.6 (0x40774000)
        libX11.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6 (0x40782000)
        libstdc++.so.5 => /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.5 (0x4087e000)
        libm.so.6 => /lib/i686/libm.so.6 (0x4093f000)
        libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x40962000)
        libc.so.6 => /lib/i686/libc.so.6 (0x4096a000)
        libpthread.so.0 => /lib/i686/libpthread.so.0 (0x40a9d000)
        libpng.so.3 => /usr/lib/libpng.so.3 (0x40aee000)
        libz.so.1 => /lib/libz.so.1 (0x40b1c000)
        libXi.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXi.so.6 (0x40b2c000)
        libXrender.so.1 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXrender.so.1 (0x40b34000)
        libXrandr.so.2 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXrandr.so.2 (0x40b3c000)
        libXcursor.so.1 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXcursor.so.1 (0x40b40000)
        libXft.so.2 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXft.so.2 (0x40b49000)
        libfreetype.so.6 => /usr/lib/libfreetype.so.6 (0x40b5b000)
        libfontconfig.so.1 => /usr/lib/libfontconfig.so.1 (0x40bb2000)
        libSM.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libSM.so.6 (0x40bda000)
        libICE.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libICE.so.6 (0x40be3000)
        libdl.so.2 => /lib/libdl.so.2 (0x40bfa000)
        /lib/ld-linux.so.2 => /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0x40000000)
        libexpat.so.0 => /usr/lib/libexpat.so.0 (0x40bfd000)

So it appears that my newly brewed 'box binary does NOT get linked against 
libgl. Strange. Could you give me your ldd output of your fresh baked binary?

Thanks in advance,
-- 
tinus.

--===============2162925294836520650==--


From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Mon Feb 23 17:36:39 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] Qt OpenGL qt/qt-mt linking problems
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 12:38:19 -0500
Message-ID: <200402231238.25955.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
In-Reply-To: <200402231756.53714.tinus@tinus.ath.cx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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To others on the list: Sorry about the lack of snippage in this message, but =
I=20
wanted to make comparison easy.

On Monday 23 February 2004 11:56 am, Martijn Houtman wrote:
> On Monday 23 February 2004 17:04, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
> > On Monday 23 February 2004 07:05 am, Martijn Houtman wrote:
>
> *snip*
>
> > Quite strange.  I was unable to make gear at all until I added -lGL to
> > the
> >
> > LIBS     =3D $(SUBLIBS) -L/usr/lib/ -L$(QTDIR)/lib/ -L/usr/X11R6/lib/
> > -lqt-mt -lGL -lXext -lX11 -lm
> > in Makefile.  After that it compiled and ran perfectly.  I copied the
> > example form $QTDIR/doc/examples/opengl/gear/, deleted the gear and
> > gear.o, Ran qmake -project, qmake, hacked the Makefile as above, and ran
> > make successfully.
>
> Exactly what version of qt rpm did you use? Or if you compiled it yourself,
> what flags did you pass configure?

I cooked up another box and it works for me.

First question.  Do you have a $QTDIR set in your environment?  I set my own =

variables in ~/.bashrc.  Also check your LD_LIBRARY_PATH. It should=20
have :/usr/lib/qt3/lib: in it   You may already know these things, but=20
there's no point in neglecting to mention them.

Mon Feb 23 12:21:09:> rpm -qa | grep ^qt
qt3-non-mt-3.3.0-49
qt3-devel-tools-3.3.0-46
qt3-unixODBC-3.3.0-46
qt3-examples-3.3.0-46
qt3-3.3.0-47
qt3-mysql-3.3.0-46
qt3-man-3.3.0-46
qt3-devel-3.3.0-47
qt3-static-3.3.0-47
qt3-postgresql-3.3.0-46
qt3-devel-doc-3.3.0-47
qt3-extensions-3.3.0-46


> The rpm also comes with precompiled binaries, which work just fine. So I
> copied the binary 'box' to 'box.old' and recompiled the new box with the
> -lqt-mt and -lGL. Now take a look at these ldd outputs:
>
> tinus:/usr/lib/qt3/doc/examples/opengl/box # ldd box.old
>                 libqt-mt.so.3 =3D> /usr/lib/qt3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
> (0x4002f000) libpng.so.3 =3D> /usr/lib/libpng.so.3 (0x40774000)
>         libz.so.1 =3D> /lib/libz.so.1 (0x407a2000)
>         libGLU.so.1 =3D> /usr/lib/libGLU.so.1 (0x407b1000)
>         libGL.so.1 =3D> /usr/lib/tls/libGL.so.1 (0x4082f000)
>         libXmu.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXmu.so.6 (0x4089a000)
>         libXi.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXi.so.6 (0x408b0000)
>         libXrender.so.1 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXrender.so.1 (0x408b8000)
>         libXrandr.so.2 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXrandr.so.2 (0x408c0000)
>         libXcursor.so.1 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXcursor.so.1 (0x408c4000)
>         libXft.so.2 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXft.so.2 (0x408ce000)
>         libfreetype.so.6 =3D> /usr/lib/libfreetype.so.6 (0x408e0000)
>         libfontconfig.so.1 =3D> /usr/lib/libfontconfig.so.1 (0x40936000)
>         libXext.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXext.so.6 (0x4095e000)
>         libX11.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6 (0x4096c000)
>         libSM.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libSM.so.6 (0x40a68000)
>         libICE.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libICE.so.6 (0x40a72000)
>         libdl.so.2 =3D> /lib/libdl.so.2 (0x40a89000)
>         libpthread.so.0 =3D> /lib/i686/libpthread.so.0 (0x40a8c000)
>         libstdc++.so.5 =3D> /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.5 (0x40add000)
>         libm.so.6 =3D> /lib/i686/libm.so.6 (0x40b9d000)
>         libgcc_s.so.1 =3D> /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x40bc0000)
>         libc.so.6 =3D> /lib/i686/libc.so.6 (0x40bc9000)
>         libGLcore.so.1 =3D> /usr/lib/tls/libGLcore.so.1 (0x40cfc000)
>         libXt.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXt.so.6 (0x411dc000)
>         libexpat.so.0 =3D> /usr/lib/libexpat.so.0 (0x41230000)
>         /lib/ld-linux.so.2 =3D> /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0x40000000)

The one they built for me:

Mon Feb 23 12:27:25:> ldd box
        libqt-mt.so.3 =3D> /usr/lib/qt3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 (0x40017000)
        libpng.so.3 =3D> /usr/lib/libpng.so.3 (0x4077e000)
        libz.so.1 =3D> /lib/libz.so.1 (0x407ac000)
        libGLU.so.1 =3D> /usr/lib/libGLU.so.1 (0x407bb000)
        libGL.so.1 =3D> /usr/lib/libGL.so.1 (0x40838000)
        libXmu.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXmu.so.6 (0x408ae000)
        libXi.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXi.so.6 (0x408c5000)
        libXrender.so.1 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXrender.so.1 (0x408cd000)
        libXrandr.so.2 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXrandr.so.2 (0x408d5000)
        libXcursor.so.1 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXcursor.so.1 (0x408d9000)
        libXft.so.2 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXft.so.2 (0x408e2000)
        libfreetype.so.6 =3D> /usr/lib/libfreetype.so.6 (0x408f4000)
        libfontconfig.so.1 =3D> /usr/lib/libfontconfig.so.1 (0x4094b000)
        libXext.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXext.so.6 (0x40973000)
        libX11.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6 (0x40981000)
        libSM.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libSM.so.6 (0x40a7d000)
        libICE.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libICE.so.6 (0x40a86000)
        libdl.so.2 =3D> /lib/libdl.so.2 (0x40a9d000)
        libpthread.so.0 =3D> /lib/libpthread.so.0 (0x40aa1000)
        libstdc++.so.5 =3D> /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.5 (0x40af4000)
        libm.so.6 =3D> /lib/libm.so.6 (0x40bb4000)
        libgcc_s.so.1 =3D> /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x40bd7000)
        libc.so.6 =3D> /lib/libc.so.6 (0x40bdf000)
        libXt.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXt.so.6 (0x40d15000)
        libexpat.so.0 =3D> /usr/lib/libexpat.so.0 (0x40d6a000)
        /lib/ld-linux.so.2 =3D> /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0x40000000)

> tinus:/usr/lib/qt3/doc/examples/opengl/box # ldd box
>                 libqt-mt.so.3 =3D> /usr/lib/qt3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
> (0x4002f000) libXext.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXext.so.6 (0x40774000)
>         libX11.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6 (0x40782000)
>         libstdc++.so.5 =3D> /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.5 (0x4087e000)
>         libm.so.6 =3D> /lib/i686/libm.so.6 (0x4093f000)
>         libgcc_s.so.1 =3D> /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x40962000)
>         libc.so.6 =3D> /lib/i686/libc.so.6 (0x4096a000)
>         libpthread.so.0 =3D> /lib/i686/libpthread.so.0 (0x40a9d000)
>         libpng.so.3 =3D> /usr/lib/libpng.so.3 (0x40aee000)
>         libz.so.1 =3D> /lib/libz.so.1 (0x40b1c000)
>         libXi.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXi.so.6 (0x40b2c000)
>         libXrender.so.1 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXrender.so.1 (0x40b34000)
>         libXrandr.so.2 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXrandr.so.2 (0x40b3c000)
>         libXcursor.so.1 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXcursor.so.1 (0x40b40000)
>         libXft.so.2 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXft.so.2 (0x40b49000)
>         libfreetype.so.6 =3D> /usr/lib/libfreetype.so.6 (0x40b5b000)
>         libfontconfig.so.1 =3D> /usr/lib/libfontconfig.so.1 (0x40bb2000)
>         libSM.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libSM.so.6 (0x40bda000)
>         libICE.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libICE.so.6 (0x40be3000)
>         libdl.so.2 =3D> /lib/libdl.so.2 (0x40bfa000)
>         /lib/ld-linux.so.2 =3D> /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0x40000000)
>         libexpat.so.0 =3D> /usr/lib/libexpat.so.0 (0x40bfd000)
My fresh baked box:
Mon Feb 23 12:32:18:> ldd box
        libqt-mt.so.3 =3D> /usr/lib/qt3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 (0x40017000)
        libGL.so.1 =3D> /usr/lib/libGL.so.1 (0x4077e000)
        libXext.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXext.so.6 (0x407f4000)
        libX11.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6 (0x40802000)
        libstdc++.so.5 =3D> /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.5 (0x408fe000)
        libm.so.6 =3D> /lib/libm.so.6 (0x409be000)
        libgcc_s.so.1 =3D> /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x409e2000)
        libc.so.6 =3D> /lib/libc.so.6 (0x409ea000)
        libpng.so.3 =3D> /usr/lib/libpng.so.3 (0x40b20000)
        libz.so.1 =3D> /lib/libz.so.1 (0x40b4e000)
        libXi.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXi.so.6 (0x40b5d000)
        libXrender.so.1 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXrender.so.1 (0x40b65000)
        libXrandr.so.2 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXrandr.so.2 (0x40b6e000)
        libXcursor.so.1 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXcursor.so.1 (0x40b72000)
        libXft.so.2 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libXft.so.2 (0x40b7b000)
        libfreetype.so.6 =3D> /usr/lib/libfreetype.so.6 (0x40b8d000)
        libfontconfig.so.1 =3D> /usr/lib/libfontconfig.so.1 (0x40be3000)
        libSM.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libSM.so.6 (0x40c0b000)
        libICE.so.6 =3D> /usr/X11R6/lib/libICE.so.6 (0x40c15000)
        libdl.so.2 =3D> /lib/libdl.so.2 (0x40c2c000)
        libpthread.so.0 =3D> /lib/libpthread.so.0 (0x40c2f000)
        /lib/ld-linux.so.2 =3D> /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0x40000000)
        libexpat.so.0 =3D> /usr/lib/libexpat.so.0 (0x40c82000)
hattons(a)ljosalfr:~/code/qt-examples/opengl/box/

But now I seem to have a minor problem.  I believe this message tells me my 3=
D=20
hardware is being ignored:
Xlib:  extension "XFree86-DRI" missing on display ":0.0".

> So it appears that my newly brewed 'box binary does NOT get linked against
> libgl. Strange. Could you give me your ldd output of your fresh baked
> binary?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> --
> tinus.

STH
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--===============8730337053093506841==--


From alessiofina@tiscali.it Tue Feb 24 08:19:28 2004
From: alessiofina@tiscali.it
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: startpar help
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 09:19:23 +0100
Message-ID: <402A6BA60001D475@mail-1.tiscali.it>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9180914985133478079=="

--===============9180914985133478079==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi to all!
anyone know something about startpar process?
How it works?
Where I can find detailed information?
How a process can be include || excluded in the parallelization?
What is option -f ?
Why the manual is so poor?
Thanks in advance...
Have a lot of fun.....

__________________________________________________________________
Tiscali ADSL SENZA CANONE:
Attivazione GRATIS, contributo adesione GRATIS, modem GRATIS,
50 ore di navigazione GRATIS.  ABBONARTI TI COSTA SOLO UN CLICK!
http://point.tiscali.it/adsl/index.shtml




--===============9180914985133478079==--


From gaf@blu.org Tue Feb 24 13:35:57 2004
From: Jerry Feldman <gaf@blu.org>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: JAVA class documents
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:35:52 -0500
Message-ID: <20040224083552.26cb3666@gaf.gaf.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8392882978006731225=="

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I was just looking around for the Java class documents. I had assumed
they would have been installed by YaSt when I installed the Java2 SDK. 

- -- 
Jerry Feldman <gaf(a)blu.org>
Boston Linux and Unix user group
http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9
PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9
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--===============8392882978006731225==--


From wam@HiWAAY.net Tue Feb 24 14:50:56 2004
From: "William A. Mahaffey III" <wam@HiWAAY.net>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: 4 GB address space ?
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:55:32 -0600
Message-ID: <403B65E4.6903CE5A@HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8138497799342410947=="

--===============8138497799342410947==
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I am new to the list. I have various codes currently native on
SGI hardware that I am interested in porting to Linux, specifically
SuSE. I was attracted to SuSE by the reputed ability to address a larger
part of the 4 GB 32-bit address space (larger than the usual 2-GB). To
that end, I have tried to port a small benchmarking program to SuSE 8.2,
on an Intel P4 box, 2.4 GHz, Biostar P4TSV mbd, w/ 2 GB of RAM (for now)
& 1 GB of swap space. This box is a compute node on my network & is
accessed by ssh; it has no monitor, kbd, or mouse, & runs in runlevel 3
by default. The benchmarking program executes various floating point
array operations on successively longer arrays (allocated w/ malloc)
until the malloc calls fail or until an upper size limit is reached. I
was running the program last night & observed that I could successfully
allocate sloghtly over 2 GB of memory (~2350 MB), but when I began
operations, the process (as well as the parent shell & login shell,
apparently) hung. I killed the login processes from the machine I was
logged in from & was able to log back in w/o rebooting. Several
questions:

1. I tried to set up a swap partition of > 1 GB & the installer wouldn't
let me, how do I get around that ?
2. Is there a problem w/ having more RAM than swap ? (I have 2 GB RAM, 1
GB swap at the moment)
3. I had problems w/ the installer w/ 2 GB of RAM installed, when I
removed 1 GB to test why I was having problems, everything went well,
total install in about 20 minutes on newly formatted system disc. Is
there a known problem w/ the installer w/ more than 1 GB of
RAM installed ?


--===============8138497799342410947==--


From cincaipatron@gmx.net Tue Feb 24 15:24:39 2004
From: Cincai Patron <cincaipatron@gmx.net>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] JAVA class documents
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:23:26 +0800
Message-ID: <200402242323.26844.cincaipatron@gmx.net>
In-Reply-To: <20040224083552.26cb3666@gaf.gaf.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--===============5212075307968980817==
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 24 February 2004 pm 21:35, Jerry Feldman wrote:
> I was just looking around for the Java class documents. I had assumed
> they would have been installed by YaSt when I installed the Java2
> SDK.

AFAIK you'll need to download it separately from Sun webpage


Rgds.
Verdi

--===============5212075307968980817==--


From carl@bookmanassociates.com Tue Feb 24 16:11:00 2004
From: Carl Peto <carl@bookmanassociates.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] 4 GB address space ?
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:10:43 +0000
Message-ID: <005501c3faf0$c13be990$0c00a8c0@bookmanheadoffice.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <403B65E4.6903CE5A@HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--===============3899534337506144007==
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

AFAIK there is no problem with having a swap partition smaller than your
physical RAM.  I have been running my system in that configuration for over
a year.



When you say "hung" what do you mean?  What status flag did "ps" show for
it?  S? R? D?  These would represent a sleeping and a running process and a
process in uninterruptible sleep, waiting for IO from the kernel.

Bash doesn't respond to normal kill signals, by default and you need to do a
kill -9 to kill it off, as I've found, could it be that the parent shell and
login shell were just "asleep" waiting for the hung process to finish?
Running the process in background would probably test that theory too.



Finally, (just to state the obvious) is your RAM OK?  Could it have a fault?
Any chance that the system overheated when doing lots of floating point
operations, etc.?



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "William A. Mahaffey III" <wam(a)HiWAAY.net>
To: "SuSE 32 bit Apps. Mailing List" <suse-programming-e(a)suse.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 2:55 PM
Subject: [suse-programming-e] 4 GB address space ?


> I am new to the list. I have various codes currently native on
> SGI hardware that I am interested in porting to Linux, specifically
> SuSE. I was attracted to SuSE by the reputed ability to address a larger
> part of the 4 GB 32-bit address space (larger than the usual 2-GB). To
> that end, I have tried to port a small benchmarking program to SuSE 8.2,
> on an Intel P4 box, 2.4 GHz, Biostar P4TSV mbd, w/ 2 GB of RAM (for now)
> & 1 GB of swap space. This box is a compute node on my network & is
> accessed by ssh; it has no monitor, kbd, or mouse, & runs in runlevel 3
> by default. The benchmarking program executes various floating point
> array operations on successively longer arrays (allocated w/ malloc)
> until the malloc calls fail or until an upper size limit is reached. I
> was running the program last night & observed that I could successfully
> allocate sloghtly over 2 GB of memory (~2350 MB), but when I began
> operations, the process (as well as the parent shell & login shell,
> apparently) hung. I killed the login processes from the machine I was
> logged in from & was able to log back in w/o rebooting. Several
> questions:
>
> 1. I tried to set up a swap partition of > 1 GB & the installer wouldn't
> let me, how do I get around that ?
> 2. Is there a problem w/ having more RAM than swap ? (I have 2 GB RAM, 1
> GB swap at the moment)
> 3. I had problems w/ the installer w/ 2 GB of RAM installed, when I
> removed 1 GB to test why I was having problems, everything went well,
> total install in about 20 minutes on newly formatted system disc. Is
> there a known problem w/ the installer w/ more than 1 GB of
> RAM installed ?
>
>
> -- 
> To unsubscribe, email: suse-programming-e-unsubscribe(a)suse.com
> For additional commands, email: suse-programming-e-help(a)suse.com
> Archives can be found at: http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-programming-e
>


--===============3899534337506144007==--


From wam@HiWAAY.net Tue Feb 24 16:38:10 2004
From: "William A. Mahaffey III" <wam@HiWAAY.net>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] 4 GB address space ?
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:42:44 -0600
Message-ID: <403B7F04.3E8F92CD@HiWAAY.net>
In-Reply-To: <005501c3faf0$c13be990$0c00a8c0@bookmanheadoffice.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5206067984204865462=="

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Carl Peto wrote:

> AFAIK there is no problem with having a swap partition smaller than your
> physical RAM.  I have been running my system in that configuration for over
> a year.
>
> When you say "hung" what do you mean?  What status flag did "ps" show for
> it?  S? R? D?  These would represent a sleeping and a running process and a
> process in uninterruptible sleep, waiting for IO from the kernel.
>
> Bash doesn't respond to normal kill signals, by default and you need to do a
> kill -9 to kill it off, as I've found, could it be that the parent shell and
> login shell were just "asleep" waiting for the hung process to finish?
> Running the process in background would probably test that theory too.
>
> Finally, (just to state the obvious) is your RAM OK?  Could it have a fault?
> Any chance that the system overheated when doing lots of floating point
> operations, etc.?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "William A. Mahaffey III" <wam(a)HiWAAY.net>
> To: "SuSE 32 bit Apps. Mailing List" <suse-programming-e(a)suse.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 2:55 PM
> Subject: [suse-programming-e] 4 GB address space ?
>
> > I am new to the list. I have various codes currently native on
> > SGI hardware that I am interested in porting to Linux, specifically
> > SuSE. I was attracted to SuSE by the reputed ability to address a larger
> > part of the 4 GB 32-bit address space (larger than the usual 2-GB). To
> > that end, I have tried to port a small benchmarking program to SuSE 8.2,
> > on an Intel P4 box, 2.4 GHz, Biostar P4TSV mbd, w/ 2 GB of RAM (for now)
> > & 1 GB of swap space. This box is a compute node on my network & is
> > accessed by ssh; it has no monitor, kbd, or mouse, & runs in runlevel 3
> > by default. The benchmarking program executes various floating point
> > array operations on successively longer arrays (allocated w/ malloc)
> > until the malloc calls fail or until an upper size limit is reached. I
> > was running the program last night & observed that I could successfully
> > allocate sloghtly over 2 GB of memory (~2350 MB), but when I began
> > operations, the process (as well as the parent shell & login shell,
> > apparently) hung. I killed the login processes from the machine I was
> > logged in from & was able to log back in w/o rebooting. Several
> > questions:
> >
> > 1. I tried to set up a swap partition of > 1 GB & the installer wouldn't
> > let me, how do I get around that ?
> > 2. Is there a problem w/ having more RAM than swap ? (I have 2 GB RAM, 1
> > GB swap at the moment)
> > 3. I had problems w/ the installer w/ 2 GB of RAM installed, when I
> > removed 1 GB to test why I was having problems, everything went well,
> > total install in about 20 minutes on newly formatted system disc. Is
> > there a known problem w/ the installer w/ more than 1 GB of
> > RAM installed ?
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, email: suse-programming-e-unsubscribe(a)suse.com
> > For additional commands, email: suse-programming-e-help(a)suse.com
> > Archives can be found at: http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-programming-e
> >
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, email: suse-programming-e-unsubscribe(a)suse.com
> For additional commands, email: suse-programming-e-help(a)suse.comLinux
> Archives can be found at: http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-programming-e

Thanks for your response. By hung, I mean no response to kbd (after several
(~20) minutes). I was running tcsh as my login shell, not bash, & was running
the process in BG under tcsh also. I also went back & checked my messages file
& I did indeed have to reboot after the hang. With no kbd response, no ps, et=
c.
While running successfully (pre-hang), top showed amount of RAM & swap used,
they looked OK. Once hung, I couldn't log in over my network to do any
checkouts & had to reboot it. I think your assessment may be correct (shells
asleep awaiting child to die), I guess my question is why did the child die, I
didn't think there was any problem until you got (much) closer to 4 GB of
allocated RAM. Also, here is output from uname -a:

Linux cmi2400 2.4.20-64GB-SMP #1 SMP Mon Mar 17 17:56:03 UTC 2003 i686 unknown
unknown GNU/Linux

This is what the installer configured, what's up w/ the 64GB in the kernel na=
me
?

I think my RAM is OK, that's why I removed part of it during install, to
eliminate that as a problem. When the install was done, I went through a cycle
of power-down, swap RAM, power-up, run benchmark (which would access all
RAM eventually), & checked out all RAM in all slots, seems AOK there. Good
question about heat, is there any way to check that under Linux ? (I don't
think that was a problem, I rebooted during RAM swaps & after hang & BIOS said
32-34C for CPU)


--===============5206067984204865462==--


From carl@bookmanassociates.com Tue Feb 24 17:18:15 2004
From: Carl Peto <carl@bookmanassociates.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] 4 GB address space ?
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:17:52 +0000
Message-ID: <006f01c3fafa$22b54960$0c00a8c0@bookmanheadoffice.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <403B7F04.3E8F92CD@HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2146764459221488663=="

--===============2146764459221488663==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

What you're describing sounds like a kernel crash rather than just a program
hang.

Mind you it *could* just be that the kernel was "thrashing" as you would
probably have been using a lot of the swap file by the time you got one of
the processes up to 2350MB, bearing in mind that both the kernel and all
other processes are using memory too.

If I'm doing my assessment right then you have 2GB physical + 1GB swap = 3GB
theoretical, you were using 2.35GB in one userspace thread (depending how
you define a GB!) plus the kernel and other process might well be using
250MB or so, meaning only 400MB left in both swapfile and RAM together.
Couldn't that mean quite a lot of thrashing?


One test I use is if it still responds to IP pings.  If not then the kernel
(scheduling, interrupts, softirq, bh) must really be down - possibly due to
a disastrous access violation, etc. in kernel space.  If this is the case
and if it always happens at the same point then there could be a kernel bug
of some sort I suppose.

If it was just thrashing (but scheduling, softirq, bh handlers, etc. are
still running fine) then IMHO really the only solution is a smaller program,
a bigger swapfile or more physical RAM.



The "64GB"?...

If you compile the kernel, you'll find in the kernel options that at one
point you specify the size of physical RAM (or at least some limits on it).

In particular, the IA32 processors cannot address over 4GB of address space
"normally", they need to have a special paging mode switched on - this is
supposedly supported in the Pentium Pro and all later processors so a P4
should be fine.  To switch this on you set the physical memory setting to
"64GB" instead of the default of "4GB".  This simply means that the kernel
can handle up to 64GB of physical RAM (but can also handle smaller amounts
too).  Why isn't this always switched on?  Kernels with this paging active
will not run on old processors (pre Pentium Pro).

So that users don't have to keep compiling kernels (most don't like to),
SuSE have built some for you.  Often (like on my box) the rpm package with
the "4GB" version of the kernel (vmlinuz and modules) will be installed.  As
an option you can choose the 64GB package - you need to do this if you have
over 4GB of physical RAM otherwise the extra RAM is unuseable.




Hardware wise - if you run another OS and get the same problems that's a key
indicator.  Temperature sensing can be done by the lm_sensors package.  Be
warned, it takes a little time to get it working well (especially if you
want the graphs visible on a web page or a GUI or suchlike) but 32 deg C
must really be OK I think - the north bridge could play up but if it always
happens at the same point then this is pretty unlikely.  As per usual the
rule I've heard is that if a crash always occurs in the same place then it's
software or OS, if it occurs seemingly randomly (except "always when
someone's cooking in the room" or "never when the window is open") then it's
hardware.


Sorry my answers are so basic.  If you can't get any satisfaction here then
you could try a kernel mailing list or my recommendation is a suitable IRC
channel.  I like IRC because you get to chat to people, instant responses,
etc.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "William A. Mahaffey III" <wam(a)HiWAAY.net>
Cc: "SuSE 32 bit Apps. Mailing List" <suse-programming-e(a)suse.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] 4 GB address space ?


> Carl Peto wrote:
>
> > AFAIK there is no problem with having a swap partition smaller than your
> > physical RAM.  I have been running my system in that configuration for
over
> > a year.
> >
> > When you say "hung" what do you mean?  What status flag did "ps" show
for
> > it?  S? R? D?  These would represent a sleeping and a running process
and a
> > process in uninterruptible sleep, waiting for IO from the kernel.
> >
> > Bash doesn't respond to normal kill signals, by default and you need to
do a
> > kill -9 to kill it off, as I've found, could it be that the parent shell
and
> > login shell were just "asleep" waiting for the hung process to finish?
> > Running the process in background would probably test that theory too.
> >
> > Finally, (just to state the obvious) is your RAM OK?  Could it have a
fault?
> > Any chance that the system overheated when doing lots of floating point
> > operations, etc.?
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "William A. Mahaffey III" <wam(a)HiWAAY.net>
> > To: "SuSE 32 bit Apps. Mailing List" <suse-programming-e(a)suse.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 2:55 PM
> > Subject: [suse-programming-e] 4 GB address space ?
> >
> > > I am new to the list. I have various codes currently native on
> > > SGI hardware that I am interested in porting to Linux, specifically
> > > SuSE. I was attracted to SuSE by the reputed ability to address a
larger
> > > part of the 4 GB 32-bit address space (larger than the usual 2-GB). To
> > > that end, I have tried to port a small benchmarking program to SuSE
8.2,
> > > on an Intel P4 box, 2.4 GHz, Biostar P4TSV mbd, w/ 2 GB of RAM (for
now)
> > > & 1 GB of swap space. This box is a compute node on my network & is
> > > accessed by ssh; it has no monitor, kbd, or mouse, & runs in runlevel
3
> > > by default. The benchmarking program executes various floating point
> > > array operations on successively longer arrays (allocated w/ malloc)
> > > until the malloc calls fail or until an upper size limit is reached. I
> > > was running the program last night & observed that I could
successfully
> > > allocate sloghtly over 2 GB of memory (~2350 MB), but when I began
> > > operations, the process (as well as the parent shell & login shell,
> > > apparently) hung. I killed the login processes from the machine I was
> > > logged in from & was able to log back in w/o rebooting. Several
> > > questions:
> > >
> > > 1. I tried to set up a swap partition of > 1 GB & the installer
wouldn't
> > > let me, how do I get around that ?
> > > 2. Is there a problem w/ having more RAM than swap ? (I have 2 GB RAM,
1
> > > GB swap at the moment)
> > > 3. I had problems w/ the installer w/ 2 GB of RAM installed, when I
> > > removed 1 GB to test why I was having problems, everything went well,
> > > total install in about 20 minutes on newly formatted system disc. Is
> > > there a known problem w/ the installer w/ more than 1 GB of
> > > RAM installed ?
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, email: suse-programming-e-unsubscribe(a)suse.com
> > > For additional commands, email: suse-programming-e-help(a)suse.com
> > > Archives can be found at:
http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-programming-e
> > >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, email: suse-programming-e-unsubscribe(a)suse.com
> > For additional commands, email: suse-programming-e-help(a)suse.comLinux
> > Archives can be found at:
http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-programming-e
>
> Thanks for your response. By hung, I mean no response to kbd (after
several
> (~20) minutes). I was running tcsh as my login shell, not bash, & was
running
> the process in BG under tcsh also. I also went back & checked my messages
file
> & I did indeed have to reboot after the hang. With no kbd response, no ps,
etc.
> While running successfully (pre-hang), top showed amount of RAM & swap
used,
> they looked OK. Once hung, I couldn't log in over my network to do any
> checkouts & had to reboot it. I think your assessment may be correct
(shells
> asleep awaiting child to die), I guess my question is why did the child
die, I
> didn't think there was any problem until you got (much) closer to 4 GB of
> allocated RAM. Also, here is output from uname -a:
>
> Linux cmi2400 2.4.20-64GB-SMP #1 SMP Mon Mar 17 17:56:03 UTC 2003 i686
unknown
> unknown GNU/Linux
>
> This is what the installer configured, what's up w/ the 64GB in the kernel
name
> ?
>
> I think my RAM is OK, that's why I removed part of it during install, to
> eliminate that as a problem. When the install was done, I went through a
cycle
> of power-down, swap RAM, power-up, run benchmark (which would access all
> RAM eventually), & checked out all RAM in all slots, seems AOK there. Good
> question about heat, is there any way to check that under Linux ? (I don't
> think that was a problem, I rebooted during RAM swaps & after hang & BIOS
said
> 32-34C for CPU)
>
>
> -- 
> To unsubscribe, email: suse-programming-e-unsubscribe(a)suse.com
> For additional commands, email: suse-programming-e-help(a)suse.com
> Archives can be found at: http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-programming-e
>


--===============2146764459221488663==--


From philipp.thomas@t-link.de Tue Feb 24 19:26:33 2004
From: Philipp Thomas <philipp.thomas@t-link.de>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] 4 GB address space ?
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:01:12 +0100
Message-ID: <4f7n301pgt5cii22mjpcokihn5afknnnb9@4ax.com>
In-Reply-To: <006f01c3fafa$22b54960$0c00a8c0@bookmanheadoffice.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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"Carl Peto" <carl(a)bookmanassociates.com> [24 Feb 2004 17:17:52 -0000]:

>This simply means that the kernel
>can handle up to 64GB of physical RAM (but can also handle smaller amounts
>too).  Why isn't this always switched on?  Kernels with this paging active
>will not run on old processors (pre Pentium Pro).

The kernel can address up to 64 GB, but individual processes are still
limited to 4 GB. And on many systems ~ 3.5 GB of physical memory is the
maximum as the BIOS reserves space for PCI and AGP aperture.

Philipp


--===============2876176731940936610==--


From J.D.Lamb@btinternet.com Tue Feb 24 19:56:40 2004
From: John Lamb <J.D.Lamb@btinternet.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] JAVA class documents
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 19:56:31 +0000
Message-ID: <403BAC6F.6090409@btinternet.com>
In-Reply-To: <20040224083552.26cb3666@gaf.gaf.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Jerry Feldman wrote:
> I was just looking around for the Java class documents. I had assumed
> they would have been installed by YaSt when I installed the Java2 SDK.
> 
> --
> Jerry Feldman <gaf(a)blu.org>
> Boston Linux and Unix user group
> http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9
> PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9

I have some basic documentation  (SuSE 8.2) in 
/usr/share/doc/packages/java2 but otherwise rely on the stuff at 
http://java.sun.com/ You can download and install the class 
documentation from there.

-- 
JDL

Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter
libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit.

--===============0114191198109190681==--


From wam@HiWAAY.net Tue Feb 24 20:40:56 2004
From: "William A. Mahaffey III" <wam@HiWAAY.net>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] 4 GB address space ?
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:40:46 -0600
Message-ID: <403BB6CE.D964CBA2@HiWAAY.net>
In-Reply-To: <006f01c3fafa$22b54960$0c00a8c0@bookmanheadoffice.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Carl Peto wrote:

> What you're describing sounds like a kernel crash rather than just a program
> hang.
>
> Mind you it *could* just be that the kernel was "thrashing" as you would
> probably have been using a lot of the swap file by the time you got one of
> the processes up to 2350MB, bearing in mind that both the kernel and all
> other processes are using memory too.
>
> If I'm doing my assessment right then you have 2GB physical + 1GB swap = 3GB
> theoretical, you were using 2.35GB in one userspace thread (depending how
> you define a GB!) plus the kernel and other process might well be using
> 250MB or so, meaning only 400MB left in both swapfile and RAM together.
> Couldn't that mean quite a lot of thrashing?
>
> One test I use is if it still responds to IP pings.  If not then the kernel
> (scheduling, interrupts, softirq, bh) must really be down - possibly due to
> a disastrous access violation, etc. in kernel space.  If this is the case
> and if it always happens at the same point then there could be a kernel bug
> of some sort I suppose.
>
> If it was just thrashing (but scheduling, softirq, bh handlers, etc. are
> still running fine) then IMHO really the only solution is a smaller program,
> a bigger swapfile or more physical RAM.
>
> The "64GB"?...
>
> If you compile the kernel, you'll find in the kernel options that at one
> point you specify the size of physical RAM (or at least some limits on it).
>
> In particular, the IA32 processors cannot address over 4GB of address space
> "normally", they need to have a special paging mode switched on - this is
> supposedly supported in the Pentium Pro and all later processors so a P4
> should be fine.  To switch this on you set the physical memory setting to
> "64GB" instead of the default of "4GB".  This simply means that the kernel
> can handle up to 64GB of physical RAM (but can also handle smaller amounts
> too).  Why isn't this always switched on?  Kernels with this paging active
> will not run on old processors (pre Pentium Pro).
>
> So that users don't have to keep compiling kernels (most don't like to),
> SuSE have built some for you.  Often (like on my box) the rpm package with
> the "4GB" version of the kernel (vmlinuz and modules) will be installed.  As
> an option you can choose the 64GB package - you need to do this if you have
> over 4GB of physical RAM otherwise the extra RAM is unuseable.
>
> Hardware wise - if you run another OS and get the same problems that's a key
> indicator.  Temperature sensing can be done by the lm_sensors package.  Be
> warned, it takes a little time to get it working well (especially if you
> want the graphs visible on a web page or a GUI or suchlike) but 32 deg C
> must really be OK I think - the north bridge could play up but if it always
> happens at the same point then this is pretty unlikely.  As per usual the
> rule I've heard is that if a crash always occurs in the same place then it's
> software or OS, if it occurs seemingly randomly (except "always when
> someone's cooking in the room" or "never when the window is open") then it's
> hardware.
>
> Sorry my answers are so basic.  If you can't get any satisfaction here then
> you could try a kernel mailing list or my recommendation is a suitable IRC
> channel.  I like IRC because you get to chat to people, instant responses,
> etc.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "William A. Mahaffey III" <wam(a)HiWAAY.net>
> Cc: "SuSE 32 bit Apps. Mailing List" <suse-programming-e(a)suse.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 4:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] 4 GB address space ?
>
> > Carl Peto wrote:
> >
> > > AFAIK there is no problem with having a swap partition smaller than your
> > > physical RAM.  I have been running my system in that configuration for
> over
> > > a year.
> > >
> > > When you say "hung" what do you mean?  What status flag did "ps" show
> for
> > > it?  S? R? D?  These would represent a sleeping and a running process
> and a
> > > process in uninterruptible sleep, waiting for IO from the kernel.
> > >
> > > Bash doesn't respond to normal kill signals, by default and you need to
> do a
> > > kill -9 to kill it off, as I've found, could it be that the parent shell
> and
> > > login shell were just "asleep" waiting for the hung process to finish?
> > > Running the process in background would probably test that theory too.
> > >
> > > Finally, (just to state the obvious) is your RAM OK?  Could it have a
> fault?
> > > Any chance that the system overheated when doing lots of floating point
> > > operations, etc.?
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "William A. Mahaffey III" <wam(a)HiWAAY.net>
> > > To: "SuSE 32 bit Apps. Mailing List" <suse-programming-e(a)suse.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 2:55 PM
> > > Subject: [suse-programming-e] 4 GB address space ?
> > >
> > > > I am new to the list. I have various codes currently native on
> > > > SGI hardware that I am interested in porting to Linux, specifically
> > > > SuSE. I was attracted to SuSE by the reputed ability to address a
> larger
> > > > part of the 4 GB 32-bit address space (larger than the usual 2-GB). To
> > > > that end, I have tried to port a small benchmarking program to SuSE
> 8.2,
> > > > on an Intel P4 box, 2.4 GHz, Biostar P4TSV mbd, w/ 2 GB of RAM (for
> now)
> > > > & 1 GB of swap space. This box is a compute node on my network & is
> > > > accessed by ssh; it has no monitor, kbd, or mouse, & runs in runlevel
> 3
> > > > by default. The benchmarking program executes various floating point
> > > > array operations on successively longer arrays (allocated w/ malloc)
> > > > until the malloc calls fail or until an upper size limit is reached. I
> > > > was running the program last night & observed that I could
> successfully
> > > > allocate sloghtly over 2 GB of memory (~2350 MB), but when I began
> > > > operations, the process (as well as the parent shell & login shell,
> > > > apparently) hung. I killed the login processes from the machine I was
> > > > logged in from & was able to log back in w/o rebooting. Several
> > > > questions:
> > > >
> > > > 1. I tried to set up a swap partition of > 1 GB & the installer
> wouldn't
> > > > let me, how do I get around that ?
> > > > 2. Is there a problem w/ having more RAM than swap ? (I have 2 GB RAM,
> 1
> > > > GB swap at the moment)
> > > > 3. I had problems w/ the installer w/ 2 GB of RAM installed, when I
> > > > removed 1 GB to test why I was having problems, everything went well,
> > > > total install in about 20 minutes on newly formatted system disc. Is
> > > > there a known problem w/ the installer w/ more than 1 GB of
> > > > RAM installed ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > To unsubscribe, email: suse-programming-e-unsubscribe(a)suse.com
> > > > For additional commands, email: suse-programming-e-help(a)suse.com
> > > > Archives can be found at:
> http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-programming-e
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, email: suse-programming-e-unsubscribe(a)suse.com
> > > For additional commands, email: suse-programming-e-help(a)suse.comLinux
> > > Archives can be found at:
> http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-programming-e
> >
> > Thanks for your response. By hung, I mean no response to kbd (after
> several
> > (~20) minutes). I was running tcsh as my login shell, not bash, & was
> running
> > the process in BG under tcsh also. I also went back & checked my messages
> file
> > & I did indeed have to reboot after the hang. With no kbd response, no ps,
> etc.
> > While running successfully (pre-hang), top showed amount of RAM & swap
> used,
> > they looked OK. Once hung, I couldn't log in over my network to do any
> > checkouts & had to reboot it. I think your assessment may be correct
> (shells
> > asleep awaiting child to die), I guess my question is why did the child
> die, I
> > didn't think there was any problem until you got (much) closer to 4 GB of
> > allocated RAM. Also, here is output from uname -a:
> >
> > Linux cmi2400 2.4.20-64GB-SMP #1 SMP Mon Mar 17 17:56:03 UTC 2003 i686
> unknown
> > unknown GNU/Linux
> >
> > This is what the installer configured, what's up w/ the 64GB in the kernel
> name
> > ?
> >
> > I think my RAM is OK, that's why I removed part of it during install, to
> > eliminate that as a problem. When the install was done, I went through a
> cycle
> > of power-down, swap RAM, power-up, run benchmark (which would access all
> > RAM eventually), & checked out all RAM in all slots, seems AOK there. Good
> > question about heat, is there any way to check that under Linux ? (I don't
> > think that was a problem, I rebooted during RAM swaps & after hang & BIOS
> said
> > 32-34C for CPU)
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, email: suse-programming-e-unsubscribe(a)suse.com
> > For additional commands, email: suse-programming-e-help(a)suse.com
> > Archives can be found at: http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-programming-e
> >
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, email: suse-programming-e-unsubscribe(a)suse.com
> For additional commands, email: suse-programming-e-help(a)suse.com
> Archives can be found at: http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-programming-e

Thanks again. I think your assessment is right on. Yes, I could still ping it,
but I couldn't get logged on because everything was paged out except the
benckmark program, so it wasn't really "kernel hung", just so sluggish I
couldn't tell the difference. OK, so far, so good. How do I get more than 1
GB of swap space (or am I stuck there) ? Thanks again.


--===============2994735014747067201==--


From gaf@blu.org Tue Feb 24 20:42:31 2004
From: Jerry Feldman <gaf@blu.org>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] JAVA class documents
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 15:42:24 -0500
Message-ID: <20040224154224.73fb53a5@gaf.gaf.net>
In-Reply-To: <403BAC6F.6090409@btinternet.com>
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On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 19:56:31 +0000
John Lamb <J.D.Lamb(a)btinternet.com> wrote:

> 
> I have some basic documentation  (SuSE 8.2) in 
> /usr/share/doc/packages/java2 but otherwise rely on the stuff at 
> http://java.sun.com/ You can download and install the class 
> documentation from there.
Thanks, I knew about the stuff in /usr/share/doc/packages/java2. 

- -- 
Jerry Feldman <gaf(a)blu.org>
Boston Linux and Unix user group
http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9
PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9
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From gavin.henry@magicfx.co.uk Tue Feb 24 23:00:10 2004
From: Gavin Henry <gavin.henry@magicfx.co.uk>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject:
 Re: [suse-programming-e] WAS "A good book on C programming",  now an APPOLOGY
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:59:51 +0000
Message-ID: <200402242259.58010.gavin.henry@magicfx.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <403A03DB.1020207@neuronet.pitt.edu>
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On Monday 23 February 2004 13:44, Rafael E. Herrera wrote:

Thanks. :-)

> Gavin Henry wrote:
> > I was had this pointed out to me, by Simon Perreault
> > <nomis80(a)nomis80.org> (with my reply):
> >
> > "On Saturday 27 Dec 2003 8:49 pm, you wrote:
> >>> 1) Please do not cross-post. (This means sending the same message to
> >>> many lists.)
> >
> > OK, guilty, but I wanted a varied response, as different people subscribe
> > to different lists.
>
> If you are asking the same question, common sense would say to CC the lists
> that you know of.
>
> >>> 2) Please stay on topic. This has nothing to do with Fedora.
> >
> > Fedora is GNU/Linux, there are C programmers, like you that use Fedora,
> > and it is a general discussion list. What's the problem? I'm not asking
> > for money for for you to join some crazy scheme.
> >
> > This kind of attitude annoys me about GNU/Linux, I am not wasting anyones
> > time, so I don't see what the problem is."
>
> In many mailing lists some individuals assume the role of guardians or
> moderators of discussions, even though the lists are open. I think your
> question is legitimate to any Linux related mailing list. Attitudes like
> his are best ignored, these individuals are usually very close minded and
> seldom have anything to contribute.
>
> As for your question, I would visit your local bookstore chain, there
> are a number of Linux-related C and C++ programming books.
>
> If you have more specific questions about C programming, there is a
> mailing list: http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linuxcprogramming
>
>
> Keep asking questions.
> --
>    Rafael

- -- 
Kind Regards,
Gavin Henry.

http://www.magicfx.co.uk
http://FedoraNEWS.ORG/ghenry
http://www.suretecsystems.com
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From carl@bookmanassociates.com Tue Feb 24 23:08:33 2004
From: Carl Peto <carl@bookmanassociates.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] 4 GB address space ?
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:08:49 +0000
Message-ID: <001001c3fb2b$2a4905a0$0c00a8c0@bookmanheadoffice.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <403BB6CE.D964CBA2@HiWAAY.net>
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I've no idea I'm afraid!

Have you tried just creating the swap partition with fdisk and activating it
in the normal way (like we had to in the days before fancy installers)?

Alternatively use the Expert Partitioning tool.  If you don't know exactly
what you're doing with these powerful tools then do test them on machines
that are currently test/play machines and *not* a production machine.

If it's going to be a powerful server then it might be worth talking to the
people who control your budget about stretching to some more RAM (we
recently bought 1GB RAM for £100).  In my experience if your server does a
lot it needs a lot of RAM is one of the unavoidable facts of life.  The
other road leads to bad performance and people grumbling like, "...well I
think things were better before 'they' switched to this 'Linux' thing...",
etc.

--SNIP--

>
> Thanks again. I think your assessment is right on. Yes, I could still ping
it,
> but I couldn't get logged on because everything was paged out except the
> benckmark program, so it wasn't really "kernel hung", just so sluggish I
> couldn't tell the difference. OK, so far, so good. How do I get more than
1
> GB of swap space (or am I stuck there) ? Thanks again.


--===============5397179453031289206==--


From wam@HiWAAY.net Wed Feb 25 00:03:20 2004
From: "William A. Mahaffey III" <wam@HiWAAY.net>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject:
 Re: [suse-programming-e] WAS "A good book on C programming",  now an APPOLOGY
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:07:55 -0600
Message-ID: <403BE75B.39A751D6@HiWAAY.net>
In-Reply-To: <200402242259.58010.gavin.henry@magicfx.co.uk>
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Gavin Henry wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Monday 23 February 2004 13:44, Rafael E. Herrera wrote:
>
> Thanks. :-)
>
> > Gavin Henry wrote:
> > > I was had this pointed out to me, by Simon Perreault
> > > <nomis80(a)nomis80.org> (with my reply):
> > >
> > > "On Saturday 27 Dec 2003 8:49 pm, you wrote:
> > >>> 1) Please do not cross-post. (This means sending the same message to
> > >>> many lists.)
> > >
> > > OK, guilty, but I wanted a varied response, as different people subscri=
be
> > > to different lists.
> >
> > If you are asking the same question, common sense would say to CC the lis=
ts
> > that you know of.
> >
> > >>> 2) Please stay on topic. This has nothing to do with Fedora.
> > >
> > > Fedora is GNU/Linux, there are C programmers, like you that use Fedora,
> > > and it is a general discussion list. What's the problem? I'm not asking
> > > for money for for you to join some crazy scheme.
> > >
> > > This kind of attitude annoys me about GNU/Linux, I am not wasting anyon=
es
> > > time, so I don't see what the problem is."
> >
> > In many mailing lists some individuals assume the role of guardians or
> > moderators of discussions, even though the lists are open. I think your
> > question is legitimate to any Linux related mailing list. Attitudes like
> > his are best ignored, these individuals are usually very close minded and
> > seldom have anything to contribute.
> >
> > As for your question, I would visit your local bookstore chain, there
> > are a number of Linux-related C and C++ programming books.
> >
> > If you have more specific questions about C programming, there is a
> > mailing list: http://lists.linux.org.au/listinfo/linuxcprogramming
> >
> >
> > Keep asking questions.
> > --
> >    Rafael
>
> - --
> Kind Regards,
> Gavin Henry.
>
> http://www.magicfx.co.uk
> http://FedoraNEWS.ORG/ghenry
> http://www.suretecsystems.com
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> =3DCXTz
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>
> --
> To unsubscribe, email: suse-programming-e-unsubscribe(a)suse.com
> For additional commands, email: suse-programming-e-help(a)suse.com
> Archives can be found at: http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-programming-e

New to this list, haven't followed this thread. If you are new to C (a bit ha=
rd
to believe, but possible :-)), the 1 & only book you need is 'The C Programmi=
ng
Language', by Kernighan & Ritchie. Old, but crystal clear, well written, &
terse. If you TRULY understand this book all the way, you should be good-to-go
for years to come IMHO.


--===============8711246011478382325==--


From wam@HiWAAY.net Wed Feb 25 00:05:00 2004
From: "William A. Mahaffey III" <wam@HiWAAY.net>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] 4 GB address space ?
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:09:34 -0600
Message-ID: <403BE7BE.52BE3C22@HiWAAY.net>
In-Reply-To: <001001c3fb2b$2a4905a0$0c00a8c0@bookmanheadoffice.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Carl Peto wrote:

> I've no idea I'm afraid!
>
> Have you tried just creating the swap partition with fdisk and activating it
> in the normal way (like we had to in the days before fancy installers)?
>
> Alternatively use the Expert Partitioning tool.  If you don't know exactly
> what you're doing with these powerful tools then do test them on machines
> that are currently test/play machines and *not* a production machine.
>
> If it's going to be a powerful server then it might be worth talking to the
> people who control your budget about stretching to some more RAM (we
> recently bought 1GB RAM for £100).  In my experience if your server does a
> lot it needs a lot of RAM is one of the unavoidable facts of life.  The
> other road leads to bad performance and people grumbling like, "...well I
> think things were better before 'they' switched to this 'Linux' thing...",
> etc.
>
> --SNIP--
>
> >
> > Thanks again. I think your assessment is right on. Yes, I could still ping
> it,
> > but I couldn't get logged on because everything was paged out except the
> > benckmark program, so it wasn't really "kernel hung", just so sluggish I
> > couldn't tell the difference. OK, so far, so good. How do I get more than
> 1
> > GB of swap space (or am I stuck there) ? Thanks again.
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, email: suse-programming-e-unsubscribe(a)suse.com
> For additional commands, email: suse-programming-e-help(a)suse.com
> Archives can be found at: http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-programming-e

I'm looking into more RAM as we speak. Thanks.


--===============4479497259174951783==--


From gaf@blu.org Wed Feb 25 00:29:53 2004
From: Jerry Feldman <gaf@blu.org>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] WAS "A good book on C programming",  now an
  APPOLOGY
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 19:29:47 -0500
Message-ID: <20040224192947.65befc94@gaf.gaf.net>
In-Reply-To: <403BE75B.39A751D6@HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:07:55 -0600
"William A. Mahaffey III" <wam(a)HiWAAY.net> wrote:

> New to this list, haven't followed this thread. If you are new to C (a
> bit hard to believe, but possible :-)), the 1 & only book you need is
> 'The C Programming Language', by Kernighan & Ritchie. Old, but crystal
> clear, well written, & terse. If you TRULY understand this book all
> the way, you should be good-to-go for years to come IMHO.
I wholly agree with this. I have both the original K&R and the Second
Edition. The Second Edition was revised to include the C89 standard. 
- -- 
Jerry Feldman <gaf(a)blu.org>
Boston Linux and Unix user group
http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9
PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9
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From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Wed Feb 25 07:49:37 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: BNF->XML: any tools?
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 02:49:36 -0500
Message-ID: <200402250249.45445.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Are there any tools that can parse a grammar defined in BNF and produce an XM=
L=20
representation?  At this point, I'm not really sure if it would serve any=20
purpose to create an XML schema from a BNF representation.  I would like to=20
look at any tools that might be capable of doing such a thing.  Supposedly=20
the XNI component of Xerces J supports "other grammar representation", but I =

haven't seen any specific reference to BNF.

STH
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From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Wed Feb 25 10:39:30 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: IBM: C++ Garbage Collection and Assignment Operator Articles
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 05:39:32 -0500
Message-ID: <200402250539.39130.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
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http://oss.software.ibm.com/icu/docs/papers/cpp_report/

I wasn't going to post this until I just happend to look up at the concluding 
comment displayed in my browser.  I haven't read these papers other than the 
introductory comments, and this:

[consider the source, see: below]

"I don't know about you, but there's something really scary to me about a 
language where copying state from one object to another is this complicated. 
By now, I suspect at least a dozen or two programmers have contributed 
something new to this discussion. If it takes this many programmers to write 
a simple assignment operator, think how complicated writing code that 
actually does something meaningful must be!

The devil truly is in the details, especially in C++ programming."

The Assignment Operator Revisited 
 by Richard Gillam
 Advisory Software Engineer, Text & International
 IBM Center for Java Technology-Silicon Valley
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From alan@ibgames.com Wed Feb 25 11:34:10 2004
From: alan@ibgames.com
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] IBM: C++ Garbage Collection and Assignment
 Operator Articles
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:32:17 +0000
Message-ID: <403C87C1.28795.D96237@localhost>
In-Reply-To: <200402250539.39130.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On 25 Feb 2004 at 5:39, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

From:           	"Steven T. Hatton" <hattons(a)globalsymmetry.com>
Organization:   	Global Symmetry
To:             	Suse Programming List <suse-programming-e(a)suse.com>
Date sent:      	Wed, 25 Feb 2004 05:39:32 -0500
Subject:        	[suse-programming-e] IBM: C++ Garbage Collection and Assignm=
ent Operator Articles

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>=20
> http://oss.software.ibm.com/icu/docs/papers/cpp_report/
>=20
> I wasn't going to post this until I just happend to look up at the
> concluding comment displayed in my browser.  I haven't read these papers
> other than the introductory comments, and this:
>=20
> [consider the source, see: below]
>=20
> "I don't know about you, but there's something really scary to me about
> a language where copying state from one object to another is this
> complicated. By now, I suspect at least a dozen or two programmers have
> contributed something new to this discussion. If it takes this many
> programmers to write a simple assignment operator, think how complicated
> writing code that actually does something meaningful must be!
>=20
> The devil truly is in the details, especially in C++ programming."
>=20
> The Assignment Operator Revisited=20
>  by Richard Gillam
>  Advisory Software Engineer, Text & International
>  IBM Center for Java Technology-Silicon Valley

[snip...]

I think perhaps you should have looked at the original :)

This whole discussion dervise not from a discussion of production code,=20
but from a contrived problem designed to test an interviewee's=20
understanding of some of the more difficult bits of C++ (legit, because=20
the interviewees had rated themselves (probably incorrectly) as highly=20
skilled C++ programmers).

In the event what he is trying to do is to take two different, non-
exception safe, classes, derived from the same base, and change one of=20
them into the other using an assignment operator. Not surprisingly,=20
this is difficult, and I suspect not something you would come across=20
very often, and not something I personally would accept in a program=20
design, regardless of the language being used.

alan
--=20
http://www.ibgames.net/alan
Registered Linux user #6822  http://counter.li.org
Winding Down - Weekly Tech Newsletter - subscribe at
http://www.ibgames.net/alan/winding/mailing.html


--===============8922284383967406515==--


From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Wed Feb 25 17:03:25 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: C++ grammar file for ANTLR parser generator
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:58:20 -0500
Message-ID: <200402251158.27279.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Just stumbled upon this.  Many may already know about it.  A few may actually 
be interested in it.
http://www.antlr.org/grammar/cpp

This is for the people as SuSE who name their machines Riemann, Poisson, etc.

http://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/~draheim/formula-analysis/

STH
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From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Wed Feb 25 20:00:37 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject:
 ccache: often results in a 5 to 10 times speedup in common compilations?
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 14:58:05 -0500
Message-ID: <200402251458.11050.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I found this sitting on my harddrive.  Has anybody used it?:
/usr/share/doc/packages/ccache/

http://ccache.samba.org/

"ccache is a compiler cache. It acts as a caching pre-processor to C/C++ 
compilers, using the -E compiler switch and a hash to detect when a 
compilation can be satisfied from cache. This often results in a 5 to 10 
times speedup in common compilations.

 The idea came from Erik Thiele wrote the original compilercache program as a 
bourne shell script. ccache is a re-implementation of Erik's idea in C with 
more features and better performance."


STH
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From gavin.henry@magicfx.co.uk Wed Feb 25 22:38:56 2004
From: Gavin Henry <gavin.henry@magicfx.co.uk>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] WAS "A good book on C programming",  now an
  APPOLOGY
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:38:35 +0000
Message-ID: <200402252238.37532.gavin.henry@magicfx.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <20040224192947.65befc94@gaf.gaf.net>
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On Wednesday 25 February 2004 00:29, Jerry Feldman wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:07:55 -0600
>
> "William A. Mahaffey III" <wam(a)HiWAAY.net> wrote:
> > New to this list, haven't followed this thread. If you are new to C (a
> > bit hard to believe, but possible :-)), the 1 & only book you need is
> > 'The C Programming Language', by Kernighan & Ritchie. Old, but crystal
> > clear, well written, & terse. If you TRULY understand this book all
> > the way, you should be good-to-go for years to come IMHO.
>
> I wholly agree with this. I have both the original K&R and the Second
> Edition. The Second Edition was revised to include the C89 standard.

I am just trying to find a second hand copy :-)


- -- 
Kind Regards,
Gavin Henry.

http://www.magicfx.co.uk
http://FedoraNEWS.ORG/ghenry
http://www.suretecsystems.com
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From wam@HiWAAY.net Wed Feb 25 22:50:59 2004
From: "William A. Mahaffey III" <wam@HiWAAY.net>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] WAS "A good book on C programming",  now an
   APPOLOGY
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:55:29 -0600
Message-ID: <403D27E1.F52B9A7E@HiWAAY.net>
In-Reply-To: <200402252238.37532.gavin.henry@magicfx.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Gavin Henry wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Wednesday 25 February 2004 00:29, Jerry Feldman wrote:
> > On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:07:55 -0600
> >
> > "William A. Mahaffey III" <wam(a)HiWAAY.net> wrote:
> > > New to this list, haven't followed this thread. If you are new to C (a
> > > bit hard to believe, but possible :-)), the 1 & only book you need is
> > > 'The C Programming Language', by Kernighan & Ritchie. Old, but crystal
> > > clear, well written, & terse. If you TRULY understand this book all
> > > the way, you should be good-to-go for years to come IMHO.
> >
> > I wholly agree with this. I have both the original K&R and the Second
> > Edition. The Second Edition was revised to include the C89 standard.
>
> I am just trying to find a second hand copy :-)
>
> - --
> Kind Regards,
> Gavin Henry.
>
> http://www.magicfx.co.uk
> http://FedoraNEWS.ORG/ghenry
> http://www.suretecsystems.com
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>
> --
> To unsubscribe, email: suse-programming-e-unsubscribe(a)suse.com
> For additional commands, email: suse-programming-e-help(a)suse.com
> Archives can be found at: http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-programming-e

Hmmm, about $30.00 last time I looked @ Barnes & Noble .... (in the last
year)


--===============7150220333078051249==--


From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Thu Feb 26 02:10:56 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: KDevelop.  Opinions? Experience?
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:11:06 -0500
Message-ID: <200402252111.12474.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Has anybody worked with KDevelop?  IMO this is one of the most important=20
projects in the Linux Community, and especially in the KDE environment.  If=20
you've ever worked with JBuilder, you will know what IDE features can add to =

the development environment.  There is NOTHING comperable for C++ that I know=
=20
of on Linux.
http://www.kdevelop.org/
I like JBuilder, and I like doing business with Borland, so I feel kind of ba=
d=20
holding them up as competition, but JBuilder is mark to meet, IMO.

STH
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From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Thu Feb 26 02:17:39 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] WAS "A good book on C programming",  now an
  APPOLOGY
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:17:53 -0500
Message-ID: <200402252117.55941.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
In-Reply-To: <200402252238.37532.gavin.henry@magicfx.co.uk>
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On Wednesday 25 February 2004 05:38 pm, Gavin Henry wrote:
> On Wednesday 25 February 2004 00:29, Jerry Feldman wrote:
> > I wholly agree with this. I have both the original K&R and the Second
> > Edition. The Second Edition was revised to include the C89 standard.
>
> I am just trying to find a second hand copy :-)

Why.  I don't think it should be all that pricey, and, if you take the time t=
o=20
read it carefully, you will have gained far more than the cost of the book.

But after reading it, forget everything you read to have an opened mind towar=
d=20
OO.  I think Stroustup screwed up in his TC++PL by taking such a long road=20
into the OO aspects of his language.  He complains that a lot of coders use=20
C++ like C with some added features, but until you get well into his=20
presentation, so does he. =20

> --
> Kind Regards,
> Gavin Henry.

STH
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From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Thu Feb 26 06:32:18 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Matthias Ettrich in praise of MS Windows IDE's
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 01:29:22 -0500
Message-ID: <200402260129.32515.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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"Favorite editor? Hard to say. I'm mostly using XEmacs and it's quite ok. But 
it's not my favorite. It lacks very useful editing features known from 
MS-Windows IDE's, like showing a function's arguments when typing a call in 
the code. This requries profound C++ parsing and understanding in real-time, 
nothing you can do fast enough in lisp, unfortunately. So eventually, we have 
to replace Emacs with a K-Tool, I guess."

This is now a couple years old, but things really haven't changed regarding 
C++ that much.  It's getting there in KDevelop, but right now it's got the 
best of them challenged.  Part of the reason the functionality isn't there is 
because too many people don't share Matthias's opinion.  But what's Matthias 
Ettrich know about programming anyway?

STH
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From dries@irssystems.nl Thu Feb 26 08:59:34 2004
From: dries <dries@irssystems.nl>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] KDevelop.  Opinions? Experience?
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 09:48:34 -0800
Message-ID: <200402260948.34475.dries@irssystems.nl>
In-Reply-To: <200402252111.12474.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Steven T. Hatton wrote :

>  Has anybody worked with KDevelop?  IMO this is one of the most important
>  projects in the Linux Community, and especially in the KDE environment. 
> If you've ever worked with JBuilder, you will know what IDE features can
> add to the development environment.  There is NOTHING comperable for C++
> that I know of on Linux.
>  http://www.kdevelop.org/
>  I like JBuilder, and I like doing business with Borland, so I feel kind of
> bad holding them up as competition, but JBuilder is mark to meet, IMO.

I've been working a bit with KDevelop. I had no previous experience with this 
kind of 'draw and fill in' kind of programming tools. I have had some trouble 
attaching functionality to UI-elements. This mainly because there are not 
many good examples that start from an "i've never used a tool like this" 
perspective. On the other hand once i got started i must admit it is good to 
use. The main problem i've encountered is that the few tutorials out there 
are not really explaining why they do what they do. And that there are 2 
kinds of tutorials, the ones that just get you started and the ones that 
startout with multipledocument stuff and other rather complex stuff.

That's why i (still) allways use the 'KDE-mini' type of application, this is 
because i wan't some gui stuff done in a simple manner.

Things i still don't understand well :
  
1)    What is the 'real approved' method to attach my QT-designer gui to my 
program (now i just inherit it to the gui to the application like this :
   
    DevEnv::DevEnv(QWidget *parent, const char *name) : MainForm(parent, name)


2)  How can i change the complete gui in a window by clicking a button of the 
current gui in that window ? (functionality i want for some reason (don't ask 
me why)).


But in general i would say KDevelop is a powerfull application that (in my 
opinion) could be even more powerfull (and attractive to new users) if more 
easy to follow tutorials at more levels of experience were added.

Grtz Dries

-- 
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From derekfountain@yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 26 09:40:15 2004
From: Derek Fountain <derekfountain@yahoo.co.uk>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject:
 Re: [suse-programming-e] Matthias Ettrich in praise of MS Windows IDE's
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:43:54 +0800
Message-ID: <200402261743.54339.derekfountain@yahoo.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <200402260129.32515.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> "Favorite editor? Hard to say. I'm mostly using XEmacs and it's quite ok.
> But it's not my favorite. It lacks very useful editing features known from
> MS-Windows IDE's, like showing a function's arguments when typing a call in
> the code. This requries profound C++ parsing and understanding in
> real-time, nothing you can do fast enough in lisp, unfortunately. So
> eventually, we have to replace Emacs with a K-Tool, I guess."

The subject isn't quite accurate. He's praising a particular feature found in 
most Windows based IDEs, not the IDEs themselves. Splitting hairs, but we 
wouldn't want to put words into the mouth of one of our own, eh? :o)

I've seen this feature in commercial IDEs on Linux (JBuilder comes to mind), 
and the Eric3 python IDE helps a little bit in this respect. Not in any free 
editor though.

> This is now a couple years old, but things really haven't changed regarding
> C++ that much.  It's getting there in KDevelop, but right now it's got the
> best of them challenged.  Part of the reason the functionality isn't there
> is because too many people don't share Matthias's opinion.  But what's
> Matthias Ettrich know about programming anyway?

It's this sort of thing which occasionally makes me despair of Linux on the 
desktop. The hackers who cut the code really don't seem too interested in 
what users want. "We do it for fun," they say, "we're not forcing you to use 
it if you don't want to." The view seems particularly prevalent amongst KDE 
developers. I think the influence of Sun et al is helping push GNOME more in 
the right direction.

The problem is endemic. We don't have a decent website building tool like 
Dreamweaver because hackers know how to cut HTML code. We don't have a decent 
XML manipulation tool like XMLSpy because hackers know how to cut XML code. 
There are dozens of text editors out there, but none which are simple and 
powerful enough to offer these sorts of completion features Matthias is 
talking about. And as you say, years later, still no one is listening. 
Depressing. I think I'll have a beer... :o)

--===============4255928700365997189==--


From adis@linux.org.ba Thu Feb 26 11:11:45 2004
From: Adis Nezirovic <adis@linux.org.ba>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject:
 Re: [suse-programming-e] Matthias Ettrich in praise of MS Windows	IDE's
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:11:58 +0100
Message-ID: <1077793918.10558.19.camel@nezirux.local>
In-Reply-To: <200402260129.32515.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Thu, 2004-02-26 at 07:29, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
> ... It lacks very useful editing features known from 
> MS-Windows IDE's, like showing a function's arguments when typing a
call in 
> the code. This requries profound C++ parsing and understanding in
real-time, 
> nothing you can do fast enough in lisp, unfortunately...

Anjuta IDE  have this feature, at least for standard C and writing
GTK/GNOME applications.
Anjuta uses SciTE/Scintilla  text widget. You can also write your own
"API" SciTE files for C/C++, Python, Java;

e.g (from  SciTE docs)

"The .api files can be generated by hand or by using a program. For
C/C++ headers, an API file can be generated using ctags and then the
tags2api Python script (which assumes C/C++ source) on the tags..."



Anjuta http://anjuta.sourceforge.net
SciTE http://www.scintilla.org/SciTE.html
SciTE docs http://scintilla.sourceforge.net/mirror/SciTEDoc.html

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From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Thu Feb 26 14:22:10 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject:
 Re: [suse-programming-e] Matthias Ettrich in praise of MS Windows IDE's
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 09:22:13 -0500
Message-ID: <200402260922.31908.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
In-Reply-To: <1077793918.10558.19.camel@nezirux.local>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Thursday 26 February 2004 06:11 am, Adis Nezirovic wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-02-26 at 07:29, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
> > ... It lacks very useful editing features known from
> > MS-Windows IDE's, like showing a function's arguments when typing a
>
> call in
>
> > the code. This requries profound C++ parsing and understanding in
>
> real-time,
>
> > nothing you can do fast enough in lisp, unfortunately...
>
> Anjuta IDE  have this feature, at least for standard C and writing
> GTK/GNOME applications.
> Anjuta uses SciTE/Scintilla  text widget. You can also write your own
> "API" SciTE files for C/C++, Python, Java;
>
> e.g (from  SciTE docs)
>
> "The .api files can be generated by hand or by using a program. For
> C/C++ headers, an API file can be generated using ctags and then the
> tags2api Python script (which assumes C/C++ source) on the tags..."
>
>
>
> Anjuta http://anjuta.sourceforge.net
> SciTE http://www.scintilla.org/SciTE.html
> SciTE docs http://scintilla.sourceforge.net/mirror/SciTEDoc.html

Both of these have code completion.
www.netbeans.org
www.eclipse.org

KDevelop has a minimal, but improving code completion for C++.  Even (x)Emacs 
has it for SGML.  Ettrich is, in principle, wrong about the speed of lisp 
being an issue.  Components of XEmacs can and are witten in C and recently 
even C++.  The reason why Emacs lacks it is the people who maintain it do see 
it as useful.

STH

--===============1681902308226410224==--


From maillist@inbox.lv Thu Feb 26 19:42:47 2004
From: Preston <maillist@inbox.lv>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] WAS "A good book on C programming",  now an
   APPOLOGY
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 13:42:40 -0600
Message-ID: <403E4C30.1090403@inbox.lv>
In-Reply-To: <403D27E1.F52B9A7E@HiWAAY.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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William A. Mahaffey III wrote:

 >Gavin Henry wrote:
 >

> On Wednesday 25 February 2004 00:29, Jerry Feldman wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:07:55 -0600
>
> >"William A. Mahaffey III" <wam(a)HiWAAY.net> wrote:
>
> >>New to this list, haven't followed this thread. If you are new to C (a
> >>bit hard to believe, but possible :-)), the 1 & only book you need is
> >>'The C Programming Language', by Kernighan & Ritchie. Old, but crystal
> >>clear, well written, & terse. If you TRULY understand this book all
> >>the way, you should be good-to-go for years to come IMHO.
>
> >I wholly agree with this. I have both the original K&R and the Second
> >Edition. The Second Edition was revised to include the C89 standard.
>
> I am just trying to find a second hand copy :-)
>
> --
> Kind Regards,
> Gavin Henry.
>
> http://www.magicfx.co.uk
> http://FedoraNEWS.ORG/ghenry
> http://www.suretecsystems.com


 >Hmmm, about $30.00 last time I looked @ Barnes & Noble .... (in the last
 >year)

Try going here:

http://www.campusi.com/bookFind/asp/bookFindPriceLst.asp?prodId=0131103628

It will give you a list of most of the online used bookstores and their 
prices.




--===============0948709648981326830==--


From J.D.Lamb@btinternet.com Thu Feb 26 21:23:17 2004
From: John Lamb <J.D.Lamb@btinternet.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] WAS "A good book on C programming",  now an
   APPOLOGY
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:23:04 +0000
Message-ID: <403E63B8.1010000@btinternet.com>
In-Reply-To: <403E4C30.1090403@inbox.lv>
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Preston wrote:
> William A. Mahaffey III wrote:
>  >Gavin Henry wrote:
>> >I wholly agree with this. I have both the original K&R and the Second
>> >Edition. The Second Edition was revised to include the C89 standard.
>>
>> I am just trying to find a second hand copy :-)
>> -- 
>> Kind Regards,
>> Gavin Henry.
>>
>> *http://www.magicfx.co.uk*
> 
>  >Hmmm, about $30.00 last time I looked @ Barnes & Noble .... (in the last
>  >year)
> 
> Try going here:
> 
> http://www.campusi.com/bookFind/asp/bookFindPriceLst.asp?prodId=0131103628
> 

Or better still (in the UK) http://www.amazon.co.uk/ have copies. You 
could also try your local library or (if you can get access) Aberdeen or 
RGU libraries, both of which will have copies. I don't have a copy or 
I'd just lend it.

-- 
JDL

Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter
libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit.

--===============9207009548277189511==--


From gavin.henry@magicfx.co.uk Thu Feb 26 22:22:43 2004
From: Gavin Henry <gavin.henry@magicfx.co.uk>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] WAS "A good book on C programming",  now an
   APPOLOGY
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:22:31 +0000
Message-ID: <200402262222.33436.gavin.henry@magicfx.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <403E63B8.1010000@btinternet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Thanks again guys.

On Thursday 26 February 2004 21:23, John Lamb wrote:
> Preston wrote:
> > William A. Mahaffey III wrote:
> >  >Gavin Henry wrote:
> >  >
> >> >I wholly agree with this. I have both the original K&R and the Second
> >> >Edition. The Second Edition was revised to include the C89 standard.
> >>
> >> I am just trying to find a second hand copy :-)
> >> --
> >> Kind Regards,
> >> Gavin Henry.
> >>
> >> *http://www.magicfx.co.uk*
> >>
> >  >Hmmm, about $30.00 last time I looked @ Barnes & Noble .... (in the
> >  > last year)
> >
> > Try going here:
> >
> > http://www.campusi.com/bookFind/asp/bookFindPriceLst.asp?prodId=013110362
> >8
>
> Or better still (in the UK) http://www.amazon.co.uk/ have copies. You
> could also try your local library or (if you can get access) Aberdeen or
> RGU libraries, both of which will have copies. I don't have a copy or
> I'd just lend it.
>
> --
> JDL
>
> Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter
> libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit.

- -- 
Kind Regards,
Gavin Henry.

http://www.magicfx.co.uk
http://FedoraNEWS.ORG/ghenry
http://www.suretecsystems.com
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From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Fri Feb 27 01:41:36 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject:
 Re: [suse-programming-e] Matthias Ettrich in praise of MS Windows IDE's
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:40:27 -0500
Message-ID: <200402262040.27636.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
In-Reply-To: <200402260922.31908.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
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On Thursday 26 February 2004 09:22 am, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
> On Thursday 26 February 2004 06:11 am, Adis Nezirovic wrote:

>
> Both of these have code completion.
> www.netbeans.org
> www.eclipse.org
>
> KDevelop has a minimal, but improving code completion for C++.  Even
> (x)Emacs has it for SGML.  Ettrich is, in principle, wrong about the speed
> of lisp being an issue.  Components of XEmacs can and are witten in C and
> recently even C++.  The reason why Emacs lacks it is the people who
> maintain it do see it as useful.

Typing in my sleep again I see.  That, of course, should read 'do not see it 
as useful'.

--===============5298986410262480338==--


From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Fri Feb 27 05:05:58 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] KDevelop.  Opinions? Experience?
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:06:08 -0500
Message-ID: <200402270006.26840.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
In-Reply-To: <200402260948.34475.dries@irssystems.nl>
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On Thursday 26 February 2004 12:48 pm, dries wrote:
> Steven T. Hatton wrote :
> >  Has anybody worked with KDevelop?  IMO this is one of the most important
> >  projects in the Linux Community, and especially in the KDE environment.

> I've been working a bit with KDevelop. I had no previous experience with
> this kind of 'draw and fill in' kind of programming tools. I have had some
> trouble attaching functionality to UI-elements. This mainly because there
> are not many good examples that start from an "i've never used a tool like
> this" perspective.

There's your first mistake! Reading the instructions. ;-) =20

I have to say, most of the tutorial stuff I read was basically worthless to=20
me.  Some of it is simply out of date.  OTOH, I haven't read that much of it.=
 =20
I tend to search documentation for specific answers as I go along.

> On the other hand once i got started i must admit it is=20
> good to use. The main problem i've encountered is that the few tutorials
> out there are not really explaining why they do what they do. And that
> there are 2 kinds of tutorials, the ones that just get you started and the
> ones that startout with multipledocument stuff and other rather complex
> stuff.

I just try things until I figure out how they work.  Since my scope is=20
currently fairly limited, I don't have that much problem right now.  I have a=
=20
lot of suggestions for new features, but I'm waiting until the core gets a=20
bit more stabilized.  I feel sorry for developers who have serious=20
functionality problems to address, and significant features to add while=20
people are adding wishlist items about how the icons suck.

> That's why i (still) allways use the 'KDE-mini' type of application, this
> is because i wan't some gui stuff done in a simple manner.

I haven't learned the KDE aspect of programming well enough to try using the =

big KDE app templates.  Someone needs to draw some pictures of what these=20
apps look like in block diagram space.  I'm not really talking about UML.  If=
=20
don't find UML all that effective in communicating the conceptual essence of =

design.  OTOH, UML would be better than nothing. I'm sticking to the Qt=20
qmake, based stuff.=20

The automake & friends can do some truly incredible stuff.  I've used it a=20
bit, and it really does gnuify your app automagically.

> Things i still don't understand well :

Take this to the KDevelop user's list, or even the developer's list.  I'm not=
=20
saying it's inappropriate for this list, just that these questions would do=20
some good for the project.  It's not a finished product.  It is still very=20
much a work in progress.  Yes, I know they have releases, and the releases=20
are basically usable.  But there are many features that aren't fully=20
implemented, and, as you have observed, much that needs to be documented.

> 1)    What is the 'real approved' method to attach my QT-designer gui to my
> program (now i just inherit it to the gui to the application like this :
>
>     DevEnv::DevEnv(QWidget *parent, const char *name) : MainForm(parent,
> name)
>
>
> 2)  How can i change the complete gui in a window by clicking a button of
> the current gui in that window ? (functionality i want for some reason
> (don't ask me why)).
>
>
> But in general i would say KDevelop is a powerfull application that (in my
> opinion) could be even more powerfull (and attractive to new users) if more
> easy to follow tutorials at more levels of experience were added.
>
> Grtz Dries
>
> --
> 01110111 01110111 01110111 00101110 01110000 01110010
> 01110101 01101001 01101101 01100010 01101111 01101111
> 01101101 00101110 01110100 01101011    <End of message>
STH
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From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Fri Feb 27 11:55:08 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: C++:Can one constructor call another from the same object?
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 06:55:29 -0500
Message-ID: <200402270655.39093.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
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In Java it's quite common to call one constructor from another one in the sam=
e=20
objects.  Can that be done in C++?  Is the same kind of situation handled in =

C++ with default values for arguments to the constructor rather than having=20
two different constructors?

STH
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From tinus@tinus.ath.cx Fri Feb 27 16:16:10 2004
From: Martijn Houtman <tinus@tinus.ath.cx>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] KDevelop.  Opinions? Experience?
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:16:34 +0100
Message-ID: <50138BC8-6940-11D8-9DDC-003065BDEE62@tinus.ath.cx>
In-Reply-To: <200402260948.34475.dries@irssystems.nl>
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On 26-feb-04, at 18:48, dries wrote:
> That's why i (still) allways use the 'KDE-mini' type of application, 
> this is
> because i wan't some gui stuff done in a simple manner.

Same here. I don't really like applications to create functionality 
code for me (Wizards, brr). They come out handy, sometimes, but 
especially if you're learning this stuff this is not the way to go.

> Things i still don't understand well :
>
> 1)    What is the 'real approved' method to attach my QT-designer gui 
> to my
> program (now i just inherit it to the gui to the application like this 
> :
>
>     DevEnv::DevEnv(QWidget *parent, const char *name) : 
> MainForm(parent, name)

Yeah, I've started learning KDevelop/Qt myself (busy working on a 
project), and found the way this is done in KDevelop kind of weird. All 
of the tutorials indeed tell you to extends the GUI class, and put your 
code in that class.
However, when you come to think of it, this creates some clean code 
where functionality and layout are neatly separated from each other. No 
need to code the GUI side (which can be boring), just create a .ui in 
Qt Designer and let "Automake & friends" create the .cpp file that 
belongs to it. Need to make a change? Open the .ui, edit it, save, and 
your app has a new GUI (after recompile). If you think of it, this 
really makes sense.

> 2)  How can i change the complete gui in a window by clicking a button 
> of the
> current gui in that window ? (functionality i want for some reason 
> (don't ask
> me why)).

I remember from my Java experience that these kinds of things are done 
by LayoutManagers, and for your case specifically the CardLayout. You 
add layouts as if they were cards on a staple, and then switch between 
them by calling some method. Here's an url:
http://docs.jcu.edu.au/qt/customlayout.html
This does not seem to be the "qt-way" to do layouts, though. Hope it 
helps.

Regards,
-- 
tinus.


--===============9125868629437300781==--


From gaf@blu.org Fri Feb 27 16:31:37 2004
From: Jerry Feldman <gaf@blu.org>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] C++:Can one constructor call another from
 the same object?
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 11:31:30 -0500
Message-ID: <20040227113130.369e27bf@gaf.gaf.net>
In-Reply-To: <200402270655.39093.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
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On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 06:55:29 -0500
"Steven T. Hatton" <hattons(a)globalsymmetry.com> wrote:

> In Java it's quite common to call one constructor from another one in
> the same objects.  Can that be done in C++?  Is the same kind of
> situation handled in C++ with default values for arguments to the
> constructor rather than having two different constructors?
Yes. In general the base class constructor is called implicitly, but you
can also call it explicitly. 
class foo {
public:
	foo() {}
	foo(const string &s): _name(s) {}
private:
	string _name;
};

class foobar : public foo {
public:
	foobar() {} // foo() invoked implicitly.
	foobar(const string &s): foo(s) {} // foo is invoked explicitly
}


- -- 
Jerry Feldman <gaf(a)blu.org>
Boston Linux and Unix user group
http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9
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From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Fri Feb 27 17:36:06 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] KDevelop.  Opinions? Experience?
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 12:36:24 -0500
Message-ID: <200402271236.38945.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
In-Reply-To: <50138BC8-6940-11D8-9DDC-003065BDEE62@tinus.ath.cx>
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On Friday 27 February 2004 11:16 am, Martijn Houtman wrote:
> On 26-feb-04, at 18:48, dries wrote:
> > That's why i (still) allways use the 'KDE-mini' type of application,
> > this is
> > because i wan't some gui stuff done in a simple manner.
>
> Same here. I don't really like applications to create functionality
> code for me (Wizards, brr). They come out handy, sometimes, but
> especially if you're learning this stuff this is not the way to go.

I don't fully agree with that.  The code templates can be very useful for 
laying down a foundation to get you started.  I found that especially true 
with Qt.  In Java I also gained a great deal from JBuilder's code templates 
and other supporting features.  I is simply easier to look through a list of 
available methods displayed at the edit cursor than it is to go back and 
forth between a reference document and you work.

A disadvantage to that approach is that it can keep you from learning how to 
construct classes on your own.  But the advantages far outway the 
disadvantages.  Often I never incorporate the code generated by the IDE into 
my project, I simply use it as an example of how to create a particular class 
or framework.
 
> Yeah, I've started learning KDevelop/Qt myself (busy working on a
> project), and found the way this is done in KDevelop kind of weird. All
> of the tutorials indeed tell you to extends the GUI class, and put your
> code in that class.
> However, when you come to think of it, this creates some clean code
> where functionality and layout are neatly separated from each other. No
> need to code the GUI side (which can be boring), just create a .ui in
> Qt Designer and let "Automake & friends" create the .cpp file that
> belongs to it. Need to make a change? Open the .ui, edit it, save, and
> your app has a new GUI (after recompile). If you think of it, this
> really makes sense.

That works as long as the you aren't trying to do anything too fancy, like 
dynamic generation of widgets.  They you're back to coding the GUI by hand, 
at least in part.  I think TrollTech should really study what Mozilla does 
with XUL.  I know the Trolls have their approach to dynamic UI, and I really 
need to study that more.

> > 2)  How can i change the complete gui in a window by clicking a button
> > of the
> > current gui in that window ? (functionality i want for some reason
> > (don't ask
> > me why)).
>
> I remember from my Java experience that these kinds of things are done
> by LayoutManagers, and for your case specifically the CardLayout. You
> add layouts as if they were cards on a staple, and then switch between
> them by calling some method. Here's an url:
> http://docs.jcu.edu.au/qt/customlayout.html
> This does not seem to be the "qt-way" to do layouts, though. Hope it
> helps.

I don't know how close this gets to that, but it changes the display of 
another frame with the click of a button.  It's probably possible to put the 
same button inside the widget being swapped out.

file:/usr/lib/qt3/doc/examples/demo/demo

I haven't explored it, but the whole body of code is there.  I can also 
recommend _C++ GUI Programming with QT_
http://www.trolltech.com/developer/books.html

It takes you through some real world code.  For example they create a basic 
functional spreadsheed with MDI, load and save, and many other features.
- -
> tinus.

STH
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From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Sun Feb 29 03:26:33 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] C++:Can one constructor call another from
 the same object?
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 22:26:41 -0500
Message-ID: <200402282226.52903.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
In-Reply-To: <4042F879.2020902@terra.com.br>
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On Monday 01 March 2004 03:46 am, Davi de Castro Reis wrote:
> Jerry Feldman wrote:

> > Yes. In general the base class constructor is called implicitly, but you
>
> I think Steven asked if the constructor of the _own_ object can be
> called inside another constructor.

Yes, that was my intention.  The attempt I made to do so resulted in an error=
=20
saying the constructor of the class called by the outer constructor was not=20
an immediate base class of the calling class.

> I don't think it is possible. You usually mimic it with defaults values,
> but I really prefer the Java approach (actually, it is probably the only
> thing I like in Java).

There are several things I like about Java over C++.  Since I have far less=20
C++ experience, I can't name as many good things I like about it over Java.  =

I'm still unsure if operator overloading is a good or a bad thing.  I would=20
like to see a language called C3 (or something like that).  That is C2++.  It=
=20
would be C++ unencumbered by backward compatibility requirements, and would=20
have either a restricted mode, or simply provide a more orthogonal subset of =

C++.  I really believe one of the strengths of Java is its limitation on the =

number of ways you can accomplish the same thing.

Another thing C++ suffers from is the header file.  A few days back, I came=20
across a site providing what is ostensibly an automatic header file=20
generator.  The programmer simply writes the source code in the source file, =

and the header file is generated by running the source through the generator.=
 =20
If this is possible for all cases of C++ source files, it suggests to me the =

header file is indeed a superfluous burdon on the programmer. =20

I think the intention was probably good when the header file was introduced. =
=20
In the early C days it may have been far more useful than it is today.  The=20
idea of laying out your class in a declaration before defining it has=20
advantages, conceptually.  OTOH, I can name some negatives resulting from the=
=20
use of header files:
1) the requirement that the header file and source code be kept in sync adds =

to the coder's work load, as well as to the opportunity for error.
2)  the need to refer back to the header file while composing the source file=
=20
is distracting, and breaks the coder's train of thought, especially for a=20
person who has not yet internalized that behavior.
3) There are different places such things as default values for arguments can=
=20
be set.  Without standard styles being adapted, we have to look in at least=20
two places to see what's really going on.=20

If the human mind is capable of handling a finite amount of complexity. The=20
more complexity the programming language imposes on our work, that much less =

capacity is left over for the implementation.

To some extent, I believe one of the biggest problems with C++ is that it is =

typically presented as a variant of C with a complete C-style introduction to=
=20
the language preceding the introduction of the OO aspects.

I present Stroustrup's own selection of examples from TC++PL to support what =

I've said: http://www.research.att.com/~bs/3rd_code.html
Note that his Hello World is not OO.  Also note that he does not have a singl=
e=20
header file in the entire list of examples.=20

> Davi

STH
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From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Sun Feb 29 03:59:57 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Ant compared to Autotools
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 22:57:48 -0500
Message-ID: <200402282257.57620.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
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I have to admit, I have never gained a good sense of how to use the gnu=20
Autotools, though I've spent far more time trying than I have with Ant. =20
TrollTech's qmake, OTOH, is very easy to learn.  It may simply be the case=20
that Ant hasn't attempted the more complex things Autotools address. I can=20
see some things in Ant which if not addressed soon will lead to the same=20
kinds of obscurity I find in the Autotools.

One of the problems I had with Autotools is that the Cygwin install I used ha=
d=20
two different versions installed, and I was reading man pages from one=20
version while working with another.  /That/ is not a reflection on the=20
difficulty of using Autotools.  Nonetheless, when I do look at the=20
documentation, I find myself following references to other documents which=20
are not consistent with the reffering document.  KDevelop will generate the=20
files I need for this task, and thus far, I've been able to use the generated=
=20
results without a problem.

However, when I try to understand what all of it means, I am at a loss.  Is=20
there a problem brewing with this system?  When one script generates another,=
=20
which generates yet another, it seems there is a potential for the result to =

become incomprehensible even to the creators of the tools.  Does anybody=20
share my concern?

STH
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From cincaipatron@gmx.net Sun Feb 29 04:57:09 2004
From: Cincai Patron <cincaipatron@gmx.net>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] Ant compared to Autotools
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:56:05 +0800
Message-ID: <200402291256.05057.cincaipatron@gmx.net>
In-Reply-To: <200402282257.57620.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
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Yes, using GNU auto tools may be confusing for ant user. With ant, only
one file (build.xml) is needed. With auto tools, there are actually two
steps: one is wether you need "configure" script, and the other one is
the "Makefile" script.

To generate "configure", you'll need to manually create configure.in and
use autoconf, whereas for "Makefile", you'll need to create Makefile.am
and use automake.

Check out this book: http://sources.redhat.com/autobook
It uses older auto tools, but the concept is still the same.


Regards,
Verdi

--===============4431322297665337737==--


From hattons@globalsymmetry.com Sun Feb 29 06:16:52 2004
From: "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] Ant compared to Autotools
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 01:17:29 -0500
Message-ID: <200402290117.37803.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
In-Reply-To: <200402291256.05057.cincaipatron@gmx.net>
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On Saturday 28 February 2004 11:56 pm, Cincai Patron wrote:
> Yes, using GNU auto tools may be confusing for ant user. With ant, only
> one file (build.xml) is needed.=20

I found autotools confusing before I ever looked at a build.xml.  The book I =

was looking at when I gave up on trying was:=20
http://sources.redhat.com/autobook  I'll check again, but the last time I=20
tried to use the examples, they were simply wrong.  Looking in the=20
documentation for the tools did little to clarify what was wrong with them.

> With auto tools, there are actually two=20
> steps: one is wether you need "configure" script, and the other one is
> the "Makefile" script.
>
> To generate "configure", you'll need to manually create configure.in and
> use autoconf, whereas for "Makefile", you'll need to create Makefile.am
> and use automake.

Then there's the issue of config.h.  I believe all open source C/C++ software=
=20
should build by untarring the source and typing ./configure && make && make=20
install.  Any options should be, well, optional.  That is ./configure --help =

should only be necessary if I want to change the default /usr/local/app-name =

- --prefix, etc. =20

Ant has its ideosyncrasies, but, from my experience, Ant has the advantage=20
that I was able to make it work for me, whereas, I have yet to be very=20
successful with Autotools.  As I say, I'll try again.=20

I'm not sure where autogen and pkg-config fit into this picture.  There are=20
also libtool and libtoolize as well as autoheader, autoscan, autoupdate, etc.=
 =20
Then there's Makefile.am verses Makefile.ac. Or is that configure.am verses  =

configure.ac?

> Check out this book: http://sources.redhat.com/autobook
> It uses older auto tools, but the concept is still the same.
I might start here:
http://inti.sourceforge.net/tutorial/libinti/autotoolsproject.html

>
> Regards,
> Verdi

I'm really not trying to be difficult, or to find fault for the sake of it.  =

I'm just a bit frustrated with the time it's taking me to become productive=20
in C++ compared to what I can already do in Java.

STH
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From alan@ibgames.com Sun Feb 29 07:26:31 2004
From: alan@ibgames.com
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] C++:Can one constructor call another from
 the same object?
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 07:24:43 +0000
Message-ID: <404193BB.17699.24BF32@localhost>
In-Reply-To: <4042F879.2020902@terra.com.br>
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On 1 Mar 2004 at 5:46, Davi de Castro Reis wrote:

Date sent:      	Mon, 01 Mar 2004 05:46:49 -0300
From:           	Davi de Castro Reis <davicastro(a)terra.com.br>
To:             	Jerry Feldman <gaf(a)blu.org>
Copies to:      	suse-programming-e(a)suse.com
Subject:        	Re: [suse-programming-e] C++:Can one constructor call anothe=
r from
	the same object?

> Jerry Feldman wrote:
>=20
> > On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 06:55:29 -0500
> > "Steven T. Hatton" <hattons(a)globalsymmetry.com> wrote:
> >
> > >In Java it's quite common to call one constructor from another one in
> > >the same objects.  Can that be done in C++?  Is the same kind of
> > >situation handled in C++ with default values for arguments to the
> > >constructor rather than having two different constructors?
> >
> > Yes. In general the base class constructor is called implicitly, but
> > you
> >
> I think Steven asked if the constructor of the _own_ object can be
> called inside another constructor. I don't think it is possible. You
> usually mimic it with defaults values, but I really prefer the Java
> approach (actually, it is probably the only thing I like in Java).
>=20
> []s
> Davi

This is something that's under serious consideration for adding to the=20
next version of C++ :) ISTR it's called forward constructors.

alan
--=20
http://www.ibgames.net/alan
Registered Linux user #6822  http://counter.li.org
Winding Down - Weekly Tech Newsletter - subscribe at
http://www.ibgames.net/alan/winding/mailing.html


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From philipp.thomas@t-link.de Sun Feb 29 11:06:40 2004
From: Philipp Thomas <philipp.thomas@t-link.de>
To: programming@lists.opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [suse-programming-e] Ant compared to Autotools
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:06:37 +0100
Message-ID: <6mg340p2uk7hua7f6mvkug8s2dqeunsd7l@4ax.com>
In-Reply-To: <200402290117.37803.hattons@globalsymmetry.com>
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"Steven T. Hatton" <hattons(a)globalsymmetry.com> [29 Feb 2004 01:17:29]:

>Then there's the issue of config.h.

What's the issue here? config.h is created automatically by running
configure.

>I'm not sure where autogen and pkg-config fit into this picture.

I've never had to deal with autogen, so I can't say anything about it.
pkg-config comes from the gnome project and allows you to get
configuration data about installed programs, like needed libraries or
compiler flags. pkg-config is often used in configure scripts to check
for availability of a given library/package and to add its linker and
compiler options to the makefile(s).

>also libtool and libtoolize

Libtools is used to ease the creation of shared libraries across
different Unix flavors. libtoolize is the tool to add libtool to your
project, just like gettextize adds gettext support.

>as well as autoheader

Automatically creates config.h.in, the template that is then used by
configure to create config.h.

>autoscan, autoupdate, etc.  

Simply read 'info autoconf' and search for these terms That should
explain it.

>Then there's Makefile.am verses Makefile.ac. Or is that configure.am verses  
>configure.ac?

You're heavily mixing these up :)

Makefile.am is the Makefile fragment you create. automake then turns
this into a full-blown Makefile.in, which in turn is then used by
configure to finally create Makefile by replacing place holders by their
actual values as determined during the configure run.

configure.in and configure.ac are actually two names for the same thing,
the configure template you write and which gets turned into the
configure script by running autoconf. configure.ac is the nowadays
preferred name, as it makes clearer that this is a file meant for
autoconf.

Philipp


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