[opensuse-packaging] One step back with devel projects
Hi, There is one big problem with the devel projects: some just don't work as it was hoped they would. I expressed the problems before, but basically some projects are just too artificial to create any kind of group feeling for the group of packages. Fortunately some jump into the gap, but I feel we need to discuss some change here. Some of us talked about the problem briefly and the idea that formed out of it is basically this: * We create openSUSE:Factory:Devel as a pool of packages with single maintainers, maintainers can move their packages their if they do not feel they belong in any specific group. In there you only maintain your package, not the rest. * Projects have the choice to move factory packages without maintainer into it up to grab. (I don't think we should leave the TODO project around). I will be maintainer (hopefully with the help of others) of that project to be the interface for new maintainers - avoiding the current "whom to ask of these 100 maintainers" confusion. I don't feel any need to do this before 11.2, but I would like you to give me your ideas about it now so we can implement it shortly after. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+help@opensuse.org
Hello, On Sep 24 17:31 Stephan Kulow wrote (shortened):
* We create openSUSE:Factory:Devel as a pool of packages with single maintainers, maintainers can move their packages their if they do not feel they belong in any specific group. In there you only maintain your package, not the rest.
What exactly is meant with "you only maintain"? Is it meant as a kind of habit, i.e. "in openSUSE:Factory:Devel you are obliged to maintain only your package, not any other packages in openSUSE:Factory:Devel" or is it meant as something which is enforced by the Build Service, i.e. "only you can maintain your package(s) (i.e. accept submit requests and so on) not other people in openSUSE:Factory:Devel can do this" ? If you mean the latter, what happens when there is a severe issue with a package but its "single maintainer" is not available for some time (e.g. is on vacation or whatever)? Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag 25 September 2009 schrieb Johannes Meixner:
Hello,
On Sep 24 17:31 Stephan Kulow wrote (shortened):
* We create openSUSE:Factory:Devel as a pool of packages with single maintainers, maintainers can move their packages their if they do not feel they belong in any specific group. In there you only maintain your package, not the rest.
What exactly is meant with "you only maintain"?
Is it meant as a kind of habit, i.e. "in openSUSE:Factory:Devel you are obliged to maintain only your package, not any other packages in openSUSE:Factory:Devel" or is it meant as something which is enforced by the Build Service, i.e. "only you can maintain your package(s) (i.e. accept submit requests and so on) not other people in openSUSE:Factory:Devel can do this" ?
If you mean the latter, what happens when there is a severe issue with a package but its "single maintainer" is not available for some time (e.g. is on vacation or whatever)?
Right now devel projects are setup all or nothing. If you have a package in it, you became maintainer for all other packages. For many projects this works very fine (Publishing, Base:System, GNOME, KDE, perl - just to name a few). For others it doesn't (devel:libraries:c_c++ is my favorite "no group feeling" project). So what I'm proposing is to create a place where you can put your package if you don't feel connected to any group - technically for that package. And this group I would setup so that everyone decides for his package, who maintains it (this doesn't mean it's a single person). And the project will be maintained by me, hopefully with the help of others. Meaning if someone submits a patch and it's not reacted upon for some time, I will step up and if someone wants to become maintainer of a homeless package (or the maintainer does not react), I'll be the one to contact to. It's not that I want more stuff to do, but I think there are enough projects that do not have that kind of overall maintainer, that I rather do it for 1 project than doing it for 20 ;( And I hope we can make that "me" a little group of people. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+help@opensuse.org
Hi Stephan, Le vendredi 25 septembre 2009, Stephan Kulow a écrit :
Am Freitag 25 September 2009 schrieb Johannes Meixner:
Hello,
On Sep 24 17:31 Stephan Kulow wrote (shortened):
* We create openSUSE:Factory:Devel as a pool of packages with single maintainers, maintainers can move their packages their if they do not feel they belong in any specific group. In there you only maintain your package, not the rest.
First of all, I agree with your initial analysis that the current model doesn't make sense for all packages.
What exactly is meant with "you only maintain"?
Is it meant as a kind of habit, i.e. "in openSUSE:Factory:Devel you are obliged to maintain only your package, not any other packages in openSUSE:Factory:Devel" or is it meant as something which is enforced by the Build Service, i.e. "only you can maintain your package(s) (i.e. accept submit requests and so on) not other people in openSUSE:Factory:Devel can do this" ?
If you mean the latter, what happens when there is a severe issue with a package but its "single maintainer" is not available for some time (e.g. is on vacation or whatever)?
Right now devel projects are setup all or nothing. If you have a package in it, you became maintainer for all other packages. For many projects this works very fine (Publishing, Base:System, GNOME, KDE, perl - just to name a few). For others it doesn't (devel:libraries:c_c++ is my favorite "no group feeling" project).
I beg to disagree for Base:System. It was the first example that came to my mind as a "no group feeling" project. I have 3 packages I maintain in Base:System (dmidecode, sensors, i2c-tools) and I was forcibly subscribed to a list where I receive submit requests and answers for all other packages of Base:System. The fact is that Base:System is big and I don't care about what happens to all the other packages there. I do not have any interest in following them _and_ I definitely do not have the time either. I believe it would have been saner to let people ask for separate devel projects where they felt the need, rather than forcing all packages to belong to a group as was done. If you think there really is room for a Base:System project with a group feeling, then maybe this means that it should be shrunk to a much smaller project only containing the real base system, rather than being a default container with packages with no other obvious home, as it the case right now IMHO.
So what I'm proposing is to create a place where you can put your package if you don't feel connected to any group - technically for that package. And this group I would setup so that everyone decides for his package, who maintains it (this doesn't mean it's a single person).
Sounds like a very good idea to me. -- Jean Delvare Suse L3 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag 25 September 2009 schrieb Jean Delvare:
If you think there really is room for a Base:System project with a group feeling, then maybe this means that it should be shrunk to a much smaller project only containing the real base system, rather than being a default container with packages with no other obvious home, as it the case right now IMHO.
Yes, you're right that Base:System has 2 roles here. I see people reviewing packages they are not maintainer of and so I think it works. That doesn't mean that every package in there is a natural fit. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+help@opensuse.org
* Stephan Kulow (coolo@suse.de) [20090925 10:48]:
Right now devel projects are setup all or nothing. If you have a package in it, you became maintainer for all other packages.
AFAIR it was *never* clearly communicated that this also meant that you're responsible for all other packages in that group. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+help@opensuse.org
Philipp Thomas wrote:
* Stephan Kulow (coolo@suse.de) [20090925 10:48]:
Right now devel projects are setup all or nothing. If you have a package in it, you became maintainer for all other packages.
AFAIR it was *never* clearly communicated that this also meant that you're responsible for all other packages in that group.
It was clearly communicated that people in a devel-project are responsible to come to a setup that fits their needs. This was the whole point of it. To move away from a package<>maintainer relationship to working in groups. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+help@opensuse.org
* Henne Vogelsang (hvogel@opensuse.org) [20090929 09:44]:
To move away from a package<>maintainer relationship to working in groups.
OK, so I missed something. But IMHO this won't work or at least only for a selected few groups. As far as I watch the submissions for the groups I'm part of, most approvals come from the maintainer of the package which indicates for me that the model isn't really working. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+help@opensuse.org
Philipp Thomas wrote:
* Henne Vogelsang (hvogel@opensuse.org) [20090929 09:44]:
To move away from a package<>maintainer relationship to working in groups.
OK, so I missed something. But IMHO this won't work or at least only for a selected few groups. As far as I watch the submissions for the groups I'm part of, most approvals come from the maintainer of the package which indicates for me that the model isn't really working.
package<>maintainer is one way of setting up a project. It is really up to the participants of the project to decide that. That is what is really broken, people don't talk to each other and decide on how to do things. This is what needs fixing. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+help@opensuse.org
2009/9/29 Henne Vogelsang
Philipp Thomas wrote:
* Henne Vogelsang (hvogel@opensuse.org) [20090929 09:44]:
To move away from a package<>maintainer relationship to working in groups.
OK, so I missed something. But IMHO this won't work or at least only for a selected few groups. As far as I watch the submissions for the groups I'm part of, most approvals come from the maintainer of the package which indicates for me that the model isn't really working.
package<>maintainer is one way of setting up a project. It is really up to the participants of the project to decide that. That is what is really broken, people don't talk to each other and decide on how to do things. This is what needs fixing.
I would expect the creation of <project>@opensuse.org mailing lists to be the only needed fix. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+help@opensuse.org
Am Montag 28 September 2009 schrieb Philipp Thomas:
* Stephan Kulow (coolo@suse.de) [20090925 10:48]:
Right now devel projects are setup all or nothing. If you have a package in it, you became maintainer for all other packages.
AFAIR it was *never* clearly communicated that this also meant that you're responsible for all other packages in that group.
Every maintainer got one mail per project with pretty detailed instructions. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 24 of September 2009 17:31:11 Stephan Kulow wrote:
Hi,
There is one big problem with the devel projects: some just don't work as it was hoped they would.
I expressed the problems before, but basically some projects are just too artificial to create any kind of group feeling for the group of packages. Fortunately some jump into the gap, but I feel we need to discuss some change here.
Some of us talked about the problem briefly and the idea that formed out of it is basically this:
* We create openSUSE:Factory:Devel as a pool of
Isn't openSUSE: prefix reserved for a distribution? There was some discussion about openSUSE:Tools naming and this was considered as an exception (because historical reason). What about Devel:Factory, or Factory instead? Regards Michal Vyskocil
Am Dienstag 29 September 2009 schrieb Michal Vyskocil:
On Thursday 24 of September 2009 17:31:11 Stephan Kulow wrote:
Hi,
There is one big problem with the devel projects: some just don't work as it was hoped they would.
I expressed the problems before, but basically some projects are just too artificial to create any kind of group feeling for the group of packages. Fortunately some jump into the gap, but I feel we need to discuss some change here.
Some of us talked about the problem briefly and the idea that formed out of it is basically this:
* We create openSUSE:Factory:Devel as a pool of
Isn't openSUSE: prefix reserved for a distribution? There was some discussion about openSUSE:Tools naming and this was considered as an exception (because historical reason).
Yes, but subpackages of openSUSE:Factory should be fine. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+help@opensuse.org
Am Dienstag, 29. September 2009 14:50:08 schrieb Stephan Kulow:
Am Dienstag 29 September 2009 schrieb Michal Vyskocil:
On Thursday 24 of September 2009 17:31:11 Stephan Kulow wrote:
Hi,
There is one big problem with the devel projects: some just don't work as it was hoped they would.
I expressed the problems before, but basically some projects are just too artificial to create any kind of group feeling for the group of packages. Fortunately some jump into the gap, but I feel we need to discuss some change here.
Some of us talked about the problem briefly and the idea that formed out of it is basically this:
* We create openSUSE:Factory:Devel as a pool of
Isn't openSUSE: prefix reserved for a distribution? There was some discussion about openSUSE:Tools naming and this was considered as an exception (because historical reason).
Yes, but subpackages of openSUSE:Factory should be fine.
I would indeed prefer if we can reserve the openSUSE: namespace to the final reviewer teams (currently autobuild and the contrib team). Means only the defined group of people, who do the final review should have write access there. So a Devel:openSUSE:Factory would be prefered from my point of view. (Yes, we should move openSUSE:Tools also there) bye adrian -- Adrian Schroeter SUSE Linux Products GmbH email: adrian@suse.de -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+help@opensuse.org
Am Montag 05 Oktober 2009 schrieb Adrian Schröter:
Am Dienstag, 29. September 2009 14:50:08 schrieb Stephan Kulow:
Am Dienstag 29 September 2009 schrieb Michal Vyskocil:
On Thursday 24 of September 2009 17:31:11 Stephan Kulow wrote:
Hi,
There is one big problem with the devel projects: some just don't work as it was hoped they would.
I expressed the problems before, but basically some projects are just too artificial to create any kind of group feeling for the group of packages. Fortunately some jump into the gap, but I feel we need to discuss some change here.
Some of us talked about the problem briefly and the idea that formed out of it is basically this:
* We create openSUSE:Factory:Devel as a pool of
Isn't openSUSE: prefix reserved for a distribution? There was some discussion about openSUSE:Tools naming and this was considered as an exception (because historical reason).
Yes, but subpackages of openSUSE:Factory should be fine.
I would indeed prefer if we can reserve the openSUSE: namespace to the final reviewer teams (currently autobuild and the contrib team). Means only the defined group of people, who do the final review should have write access there.
So a Devel:openSUSE:Factory would be prefered from my point of view.
I don't care as long as the name is more speaking than hennevogel:TODO Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+help@opensuse.org
participants (8)
-
Adrian Schröter -
Cristian Morales Vega -
Henne Vogelsang -
Jean Delvare -
Johannes Meixner -
Michal Vyskocil -
Philipp Thomas -
Stephan Kulow