Hi, I think this is off-topic here, but I'm trying anyway. I'm learning to play the Flemish bagpipes. I use noteedit to help me study my pieces. No problem here. In a while I have to play together with a clarinet and a sax. The piece I want to play had no lines for clarinet and sax, so with the help of my teacher I transposed some other instruments. Then I played the piece with noteedit. On some places it sounds wrong, so I told my teacher something was wrong. She says that the output of midi does not transpose sounds like clarinet or sax do. I was surprised to hear that so I investigated. I let noteedit play some notes and measured them with my tuner, e.g. when noteedit plays a G with a clarinet-sound I measure a G with my tuner, same with a sax-sound. Then I asked my daughter to play a G on her clarinet, and, to my surprise, I got an F on my tuner. Other notes "behave" the same. I had heard of this fenomenon but didn't understand it then. I tried the experiment with my tuner with rosegarden, with the same results, so I don't think it's the score-editor, but midi. I even tried different sound-fonts with the same results. So my question is, why would a computer sound like a G when I ask to "play a G with a clarinet" when in reality a clarinet will sound like an F when the player sees a G on the score and presses the keys for it. What I mean is, when I copy a score which includes clarinet and sax, and then I play it via midi, it will not sound like when that piece is played with real instruments. So what's the use of midi when it does not play the reality ? Or do you have to be a musicologist just to copy a score, let alone transpose one ? You would have to have two versions of your score : one to play with midi and one to play with real instruments. Any references to this problem will be highly appreciated. If you know a better place to ask this I would be happy to hear about it. I did search with google, but I didn't get answers, but I don't really know how to ask this in google. Regards, Koenraad Lelong. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-multimedia+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-multimedia+help@opensuse.org
On 05/02/2011 09:04 AM, Koenraad Lelong wrote:
Hi,
I think this is off-topic here, but I'm trying anyway.
I'm learning to play the Flemish bagpipes. I use noteedit to help me study my pieces. No problem here. In a while I have to play together with a clarinet and a sax. The piece I want to play had no lines for clarinet and sax, so with the help of my teacher I transposed some other instruments. Then I played the piece with noteedit. On some places it sounds wrong, so I told my teacher something was wrong. She says that the output of midi does not transpose sounds like clarinet or sax do. I was surprised to hear that so I investigated. I let noteedit play some notes and measured them with my tuner, e.g. when noteedit plays a G with a clarinet-sound I measure a G with my tuner, same with a sax-sound. Then I asked my daughter to play a G on her clarinet, and, to my surprise, I got an F on my tuner. Other notes "behave" the same. I had heard of this fenomenon but didn't understand it then. I tried the experiment with my tuner with rosegarden, with the same results, so I don't think it's the score-editor, but midi. I even tried different sound-fonts with the same results.
So my question is, why would a computer sound like a G when I ask to "play a G with a clarinet" when in reality a clarinet will sound like an F when the player sees a G on the score and presses the keys for it. What I mean is, when I copy a score which includes clarinet and sax, and then I play it via midi, it will not sound like when that piece is played with real instruments. So what's the use of midi when it does not play the reality ? Or do you have to be a musicologist just to copy a score, let alone transpose one ? You would have to have two versions of your score : one to play with midi and one to play with real instruments.
Any references to this problem will be highly appreciated. If you know a better place to ask this I would be happy to hear about it. I did search with google, but I didn't get answers, but I don't really know how to ask this in google.
Regards,
Koenraad Lelong.
Try solfege to compare the sound G and F. Why don't you use rosegarden to enter the musical score and (assuming you are using an external midi recorder) transfer it to your midi, rosegarden has just about all the midi drivers possible. If you haven't an external midi then you can use a dssi soft synth in rosegarden it interfaces with midi keyboards as well. Lastly reed instruments vary in pitch with breath pressure especially using a soft reed. A clarinet isn't so bad but a sax is very pressure sensitive. Another possibility is the tuners A to D can't handle the sound produced by the clarinet due to a bad sample rate. Dave P Maintainer Multimedia apps and libs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-multimedia+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-multimedia+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Monday 02 May 2011, Koenraad Lelong wrote:
I think this is off-topic here, but I'm trying anyway.
Questions about making music with computers are perfectly on topic in this list, IMO.
I'm learning to play the Flemish bagpipes. I use noteedit to help me study my pieces. No problem here. In a while I have to play together with a clarinet and a sax. The piece I want to play had no lines for clarinet and sax, so with the help of my teacher I transposed some other instruments.
NoteEdit can transpose automatically a staff any number of semitones up or down, using the menu option: Tools->Transpose. For instance, to prepare a staff for a clarinet in B flat, you can use the transpose function with two semitones up.
Then I played the piece with noteedit. On some places it sounds wrong, so I told my teacher something was wrong. She says that the output of midi does not transpose sounds like clarinet or sax do. I was surprised to hear that so I investigated. I let noteedit play some notes and measured them with my tuner, e.g. when noteedit plays a G with a clarinet-sound I measure a G with my tuner, same with a sax-sound. Then I asked my daughter to play a G on her clarinet, and, to my surprise, I got an F on my tuner. Other notes "behave" the same. I had heard of this fenomenon but didn't understand it then. I tried the experiment with my tuner with rosegarden, with the same results, so I don't think it's the score-editor, but midi. I even tried different sound-fonts with the same results.
So my question is, why would a computer sound like a G when I ask to "play a G with a clarinet" when in reality a clarinet will sound like an F when the player sees a G on the score and presses the keys for it.
Because MIDI synthesizers don't really know anything about the real instruments which mimic, with more or less credibility. All they know is to produce sound with a frequency of 440 Hz when receiving a MIDI Note-On number 69, using the currently selected instrument on the same channel of the note-on event. The instrument itself is selected via a MIDI message containing for instance the identifier number 71, which corresponds to a clarinet sound only if the MIDI synth follows the General MIDI conventions. These are, among others, the rules belonging to the MIDI protocol.
What I mean is, when I copy a score which includes clarinet and sax, and then I play it via midi, it will not sound like when that piece is played with real instruments. So what's the use of midi when it does not play the reality ? Or do you have to be a musicologist just to copy a score, let alone transpose one ? You would have to have two versions of your score : one to play with midi and one to play with real instruments.
Wait a minute. The score that you transcribed using your sequencer software is not the reality, it is only the correctly written representation of the music, following the rules of music notation for the instruments represented in the score. To render this score into real music you need a couple of trained musicians playing their instruments, following the score. If you want NoteEdit to render the score into correctly tuned music, you need to tell the program that some staff corresponds to an instrument that sounds transposed with respect to the written notes. This is accomplished using the dialog "Staff Properties" (menu: Staff->Voices) and changing the value for the "Play transposed" parameter. In the former example where we used two semitones up for a clarinet in B flat, now you need to change the play transposed parameter to -2. Regards, Pedro -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-multimedia+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-multimedia+help@opensuse.org
Op 02-05-11 23:21, Pedro Lopez-Cabanillas schreef:
Hi,
...
NoteEdit can transpose automatically a staff any number of semitones up or down, using the menu option: Tools->Transpose. For instance, to prepare a staff for a clarinet in B flat, you can use the transpose function with two semitones up.
That's what I did, and then I experienced my problem.
...
Wait a minute. The score that you transcribed using your sequencer software is not the reality, it is only the correctly written representation of the music, following the rules of music notation for the instruments represented in the score. To render this score into real music you need a couple of trained musicians playing their instruments, following the score. If you want NoteEdit to render the score into correctly tuned music, you need to tell the program that some staff corresponds to an instrument that sounds transposed with respect to the written notes. This is accomplished using the dialog "Staff Properties" (menu: Staff->Voices) and changing the value for the "Play transposed" parameter. In the former example where we used two semitones up for a clarinet in B flat, now you need to change the play transposed parameter to -2.
Thanks for pointing this out. You can do this also via the Format/Staff Properties menu. That's what I always use to set the wanted instruments. *But* what I didn't notice until you pointed it out is the possibility to "play transposed". Now I have to find out what values to enter. Unfortunately, I'll have do do this for every score I make :-(. Do you happen to know if the midi-export uses these values also ? Sometimes I want to email a tune, so I use timidity to convert the midi to wav/mp3 (is it possible do do this with fluidsynth ? Didn't find out yet). I'll have to try, export and re-import should prove this.
Regards, Pedro
Thanks for the clarification. Regards, Koenraad. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-multimedia+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-multimedia+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 05 May 2011, Koenraad Lelong wrote:
You can do this also via the Format/Staff Properties menu. That's what I always use to set the wanted instruments. *But* what I didn't notice until you pointed it out is the possibility to "play transposed". Now I have to find out what values to enter. Unfortunately, I'll have do do this for every score I make :-(. Do you happen to know if the midi-export uses these values also ?
Yes, it does.
Sometimes I want to email a tune, so I use timidity to convert the midi to wav/mp3 (is it possible do do this with fluidsynth ? Didn't find out yet). I'll have to try, export and re-import should prove this.
Yes, FluidSynth converts MIDI files to wav and other audio formats, if it was compiled with libsndfile support. openSUSE 11.4 contains the latest FluidSynth release: 1.1.3 To find out the available output formats type this command: $ fluidsynth -T help For instance, to convert in batch mode a MIDI file to wav audio, use a command like this: $ fluidsynth -F music.wav soundfont.sf2 music.mid You will need a good soundfont (sf2). For classic orchestral instruments I like GeneralUser (available in packman repo: http://packman.links2linux.org) and FluidR3 available in Jan Engelhardt's repo: http://jftp.medozas.de). Regards, Pedro -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-multimedia+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-multimedia+help@opensuse.org
Op 05-05-11 23:12, Pedro Lopez-Cabanillas schreef:
On Thursday 05 May 2011, Koenraad Lelong wrote:
You can do this also via the Format/Staff Properties menu. That's what I always use to set the wanted instruments. *But* what I didn't notice until you pointed it out is the possibility to "play transposed". Now I have to find out what values to enter. Unfortunately, I'll have do do this for every score I make :-(. Do you happen to know if the midi-export uses these values also ?
Yes, it does.
Sometimes I want to email a tune, so I use timidity to convert the midi to wav/mp3 (is it possible do do this with fluidsynth ? Didn't find out yet). I'll have to try, export and re-import should prove this.
Yes, FluidSynth converts MIDI files to wav and other audio formats, if it was compiled with libsndfile support. openSUSE 11.4 contains the latest FluidSynth release: 1.1.3
To find out the available output formats type this command: $ fluidsynth -T help
For instance, to convert in batch mode a MIDI file to wav audio, use a command like this: $ fluidsynth -F music.wav soundfont.sf2 music.mid
You will need a good soundfont (sf2). For classic orchestral instruments I like GeneralUser (available in packman repo: http://packman.links2linux.org) and FluidR3 available in Jan Engelhardt's repo: http://jftp.medozas.de).
Regards, Pedro
Hi Pedro, Many thanks for this information. About the soundfont : I"m using one supplied with my SBLive soundcard, but I'll try GeneralUser (had this already installed) and the FluidR3. Generally, the sound of bagpipes is not good, but the one I use (8mbgmsfx.sf2) from Creative is not too bad. I was making my own soundfont (with Swammy) but I'll have to work on it. Regards, Koenraad. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-multimedia+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-multimedia+help@opensuse.org
participants (3)
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Dave Plater
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Koenraad Lelong
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Pedro Lopez-Cabanillas