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Piotrek Juzwiak

14 Feb 2009 14 Feb '09

14:35

I wanted to discuss with You my fellow translators about Your approach to "untranslatable" text. In my case i find english language to be at least "primitive", i should explain what i mean because i don't want to offend anyone. In my language almost every word has it's own meaning, what i mean by that is that in english one word can have several meanings for example free where in my language we have at least two words for that (even Richard Stallman admitted that, free as for no money and free as free to modify :) ). What i find VERY irritating is lots of glued together words that i understand and it is perfectly clear (if i think about it in English) but when i try to translate such word i need to use much more words than just one, example for this week's newsletter, statusmail, i still think about words to use it to avoid changing the meaning . Also i may not be a language freak but sometimes i'm crying about state of the text i need to translate (pure English), it may not be my mother language but seeing the direction it goes i start thinking that it gets more primitive with time, while many of You may consider using one word to describe many things beneficial i see that as dumbing down. So at last, we come to the end of my mail with some questions ( i leave conclusions to You), are You correcting the texts you translate? Are you adding some words, do you often have difficulties translating it to your native language? Best Regards Complaining BenderBendingRodriguez -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

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Александр Мелентьев

14 Feb 14 Feb

15:16

...

So at last, we come to the end of my mail with some questions ( i leave conclusions to You), are You correcting the texts you translate? Are you adding some words, do you often have difficulties translating it to your native language? Hi, Piotrek! I thought a lot about the same things, and, of course, it is definitely hard to translate such compound words like "statusmail", "runlevel" or "newsletter". I see lots of them due to my work on

2009/2/14 Piotrek Juzwiak : translating openSUSE itself, but I don't think it is pure degradation of a language - I think it is a very interesting feature, when you can define a new statement by just linking words together: this is available in Roman group of languages and not available in Slavian, this is life =) In fact, English was tending to describe things shorter and faster for ages, it has no other ways of doing this (every word has only one form in English and, for example, in Russian six (earlier 8) non-unique forms are defined) and we (as translators) have no other option but translating the full form of such a compound. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier

16 Feb 16 Feb

15:09

On 02/14/2009 09:35 AM, Piotrek Juzwiak wrote:

...

In my case i find english language to be at least "primitive", i should explain what i mean because i don't want to offend anyone. In my language almost every word has it's own meaning, what i mean by that is that in english one word can have several meanings for example free where in my language we have at least two words for that

I'm not sure I'd call that primitive, but it's certainly more complicated for non-native (and sometimes native) speakers. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier jzb@zonker.net http://www.dissociatedpress.net/ Twitter/Identi.ca: jzb -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Ricardo Varas Santana

16:47

On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:

...

On 02/14/2009 09:35 AM, Piotrek Juzwiak wrote:

...
In my case i find english language to be at least "primitive", i should explain what i mean because i don't want to offend anyone. In my language almost every word has it's own meaning, what i mean by that is that in english one word can have several meanings for example free where in my language we have at least two words for that

I'm not sure I'd call that primitive, but it's certainly more complicated for non-native (and sometimes native) speakers.

Best,

Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier jzb@zonker.net http://www.dissociatedpress.net/ Twitter/Identi.ca: jzb -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Hi, I find english an OK and not so complicated language. For technical matters it is pretty good, even better than spanish because most of the times you can use less words in english for the same idea in spanish. "Free" in spanish has two meanings as well (libre and gratis), and they both are way different. I think it's always to elaborate when words might lead to confusion. Regards -- Ricardo Varas Santana http://ricardovs.wordpress.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Piotrek Juzwiak

17:08

Ricardo Varas Santana wrote:

...

On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:

...
On 02/14/2009 09:35 AM, Piotrek Juzwiak wrote:

...
In my case i find english language to be at least "primitive", i should explain what i mean because i don't want to offend anyone. In my language almost every word has it's own meaning, what i mean by that is that in english one word can have several meanings for example free where in my language we have at least two words for that

I'm not sure I'd call that primitive, but it's certainly more complicated for non-native (and sometimes native) speakers.

Best,

Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier jzb@zonker.net http://www.dissociatedpress.net/ Twitter/Identi.ca: jzb -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Hi,

I find english an OK and not so complicated language. For technical matters it is pretty good, even better than spanish because most of the times you can use less words in english for the same idea in spanish.

"Free" in spanish has two meanings as well (libre and gratis), and they both are way different. I think it's always to elaborate when words might lead to confusion.

Regards

As a matter of fact most of technical stuff got it's names in English first :) Maybe i used too harsh words but beauty of a language is it's ability to express yourself in as many words as possible right?? Having one word for many things makes it really poor (just my opinion, you don't have to agree with that), i do like using English because there is always place to improvise but still it's going into wrong direction in my opinion. The worst thing i see is usage of english words in our native languages, this sounds at least silly. Being in germany last time i see increased usage of english words instead of "native" german words which i find "brutal" but hey, media are enforcing this on us that way. Looks to me, that in 50 years we will all talk a mixture of english and our native language (if by this time everyone won't talk english only) . Best Bender -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier

18:14

On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Piotrek Juzwiak wrote:

...

As a matter of fact most of technical stuff got it's names in English first :) Maybe i used too harsh words but beauty of a language is it's ability to express yourself in as many words as possible right??

For me, the utility of a language is whether it allows you to express your meaning as precisely as you wish, but also have nuance and subtlety. Now -- I don't consider myself an expert on language, so take this with a grain of salt: But I think English is very effective in this regard. You can say something and be clear on more than one level. (Note that I'm thinking of literature here, not technical documentation -- which are two different things indeed.)

...

Having one word for many things makes it really poor (just my opinion, you don't have to agree with that), i do like using English because there is always place to improvise but still it's going into wrong direction in my opinion. The worst thing i see is usage of english words in our native languages, this sounds at least silly. Being in germany last time i see increased usage of english words instead of "native" german words which i find "brutal" but hey, media are enforcing this on us that way. Looks to me, that in 50 years we will all talk a mixture of english and our native language (if by this time everyone won't talk english only) .

Heh. Well, English is largely composed of words from other languages, so it's only fair that we give some back. :-) English as spoken today is a "mutt" language -- parts Latin, French, German, and so forth. It has mutated a lot over the years and there's really a rich history embodied in the language that I find fascinating. I could, literally, spend a day reading the Oxford English Dictionary -- and might just do that on my next vacation. :-) I'm not sure there's "right" or "wrong" in languages, though -- and while it's easy to look at a language's development and say "this is/isn't the way it should be," the fact that the common usage pushes language in a specific direction may mean that is the evolution that's the best for communication among the widest group of people. This reminds me a bit of a conversation I had with a NetBSD developer around 1999 - he was ticked at Linux because he said that a lot of the system wasn't elegant -- in particular, was criticizing the IDE stack at the time, saying NetBSD's was better, more robust, etc. Maybe doing things "exactly right" wasn't the right answer, as getting it done first and improving over time seems to have worked pretty well for Linux. The English language may not be as 'elegant' as other languages, but it works - and its ability to evolve rapidly may be why English words keep popping up in other languages. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Piotrek Juzwiak

18:26

Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:

...

On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Piotrek Juzwiak wrote:

...
As a matter of fact most of technical stuff got it's names in English first :) Maybe i used too harsh words but beauty of a language is it's ability to express yourself in as many words as possible right??

For me, the utility of a language is whether it allows you to express your meaning as precisely as you wish, but also have nuance and subtlety.

Now -- I don't consider myself an expert on language, so take this with a grain of salt: But I think English is very effective in this regard. You can say something and be clear on more than one level. (Note that I'm thinking of literature here, not technical documentation -- which are two different things indeed.)

...
Having one word for many things makes it really poor (just my opinion, you don't have to agree with that), i do like using English because there is always place to improvise but still it's going into wrong direction in my opinion. The worst thing i see is usage of english words in our native languages, this sounds at least silly. Being in germany last time i see increased usage of english words instead of "native" german words which i find "brutal" but hey, media are enforcing this on us that way. Looks to me, that in 50 years we will all talk a mixture of english and our native language (if by this time everyone won't talk english only) .

Heh. Well, English is largely composed of words from other languages, so it's only fair that we give some back. :-)

English as spoken today is a "mutt" language -- parts Latin, French, German, and so forth. It has mutated a lot over the years and there's really a rich history embodied in the language that I find fascinating. I could, literally, spend a day reading the Oxford English Dictionary -- and might just do that on my next vacation. :-)

I'm not sure there's "right" or "wrong" in languages, though -- and while it's easy to look at a language's development and say "this is/isn't the way it should be," the fact that the common usage pushes language in a specific direction may mean that is the evolution that's the best for communication among the widest group of people.

This reminds me a bit of a conversation I had with a NetBSD developer around 1999 - he was ticked at Linux because he said that a lot of the system wasn't elegant -- in particular, was criticizing the IDE stack at the time, saying NetBSD's was better, more robust, etc. Maybe doing things "exactly right" wasn't the right answer, as getting it done first and improving over time seems to have worked pretty well for Linux.

The English language may not be as 'elegant' as other languages, but it works - and its ability to evolve rapidly may be why English words keep popping up in other languages.

Best,

Zonker

Well, all i can say is Joe 'Zonker" Brockmeier hasn't been chosen by a mistake :-) You really are the right person on the right position. Good we have You on our front and not against us ;-) Best Regards Piotrek Juzwiak -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Matthias Fehring

18:52

On Monday 16 February 2009 18:08:09 Piotrek Juzwiak wrote:

...

Ricardo Varas Santana wrote:

...
On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier

wrote:

...
On 02/14/2009 09:35 AM, Piotrek Juzwiak wrote:

...
In my case i find english language to be at least "primitive", i should explain what i mean because i don't want to offend anyone. In my language almost every word has it's own meaning, what i mean by that is that in english one word can have several meanings for example free where in my language we have at least two words for that

I'm not sure I'd call that primitive, but it's certainly more complicated for non-native (and sometimes native) speakers.

Best,

Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier jzb@zonker.net http://www.dissociatedpress.net/ Twitter/Identi.ca: jzb -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Hi,

I find english an OK and not so complicated language. For technical matters it is pretty good, even better than spanish because most of the times you can use less words in english for the same idea in spanish.

"Free" in spanish has two meanings as well (libre and gratis), and they both are way different. I think it's always to elaborate when words might lead to confusion.

Regards

As a matter of fact most of technical stuff got it's names in English first :) Maybe i used too harsh words but beauty of a language is it's ability to express yourself in as many words as possible right?? Having one word for many things makes it really poor (just my opinion, you don't have to agree with that), i do like using English because there is always place to improvise but still it's going into wrong direction in my opinion. The worst thing i see is usage of english words in our native languages, this sounds at least silly. Being in germany last time i see increased usage of english words instead of "native" german words which i find "brutal" but hey, media are enforcing this on us that way. Looks to me, that in 50 years we will all talk a mixture of english and our native language (if by this time everyone won't talk english only) .

Best

Bender

Piotrek, you can't imagine how good I am feeling with you. In Germany it is really a bad fashion to use english words for things for that german words already exist. Sometimes it reminds me to the 17. and 18. century, when french was very vogue at the aristocracy to differ themself from the normal people. Understand me right, I don't have anything against english. It is more the guilt of the germans themself to be not brave enough to use own words. English words gets adopt implicit and without thinking about german words for the same. Also many german writers don't seem to have the courage to create own new words for new things, or to use exisiting words for describing new things. I envy the english speaking world for there courage to use exisiting words for new things or to create new ones. The germans than only adopt them, what is really poor. But that is not the guilt of english. It is in our own hands to staminate our own languages. In the german wiki I try for myself to use as less english words as possible. Especially because of all the non geeks out there. :) Best greetings Buschmann ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- openSUSE Member - de.opensuse.org Sys-Op http://en.opensuse.org/User:Buschmann23

Piotrek Juzwiak

19:10

Matthias Fehring wrote:

...

On Monday 16 February 2009 18:08:09 Piotrek Juzwiak wrote:

...
Ricardo Varas Santana wrote:

...
On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier

wrote:

...
On 02/14/2009 09:35 AM, Piotrek Juzwiak wrote:

...
In my case i find english language to be at least "primitive", i should explain what i mean because i don't want to offend anyone. In my language almost every word has it's own meaning, what i mean by that is that in english one word can have several meanings for example free where in my language we have at least two words for that

I'm not sure I'd call that primitive, but it's certainly more complicated for non-native (and sometimes native) speakers.

Best,

Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier jzb@zonker.net http://www.dissociatedpress.net/ Twitter/Identi.ca: jzb -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Hi,

I find english an OK and not so complicated language. For technical matters it is pretty good, even better than spanish because most of the times you can use less words in english for the same idea in spanish.

"Free" in spanish has two meanings as well (libre and gratis), and they both are way different. I think it's always to elaborate when words might lead to confusion.

Regards

As a matter of fact most of technical stuff got it's names in English first :) Maybe i used too harsh words but beauty of a language is it's ability to express yourself in as many words as possible right?? Having one word for many things makes it really poor (just my opinion, you don't have to agree with that), i do like using English because there is always place to improvise but still it's going into wrong direction in my opinion. The worst thing i see is usage of english words in our native languages, this sounds at least silly. Being in germany last time i see increased usage of english words instead of "native" german words which i find "brutal" but hey, media are enforcing this on us that way. Looks to me, that in 50 years we will all talk a mixture of english and our native language (if by this time everyone won't talk english only) .

Best

Bender

Piotrek, you can't imagine how good I am feeling with you. In Germany it is really a bad fashion to use english words for things for that german words already exist. Sometimes it reminds me to the 17. and 18. century, when french was very vogue at the aristocracy to differ themself from the normal people.

Understand me right, I don't have anything against english. It is more the guilt of the germans themself to be not brave enough to use own words. English words gets adopt implicit and without thinking about german words for the same. Also many german writers don't seem to have the courage to create own new words for new things, or to use exisiting words for describing new things.

I envy the english speaking world for there courage to use exisiting words for new things or to create new ones. The germans than only adopt them, what is really poor.

But that is not the guilt of english. It is in our own hands to staminate our own languages.

In the german wiki I try for myself to use as less english words as possible. Especially because of all the non geeks out there. :)

Best greetings Buschmann

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- openSUSE Member - de.opensuse.org Sys-Op http://en.opensuse.org/User:Buschmann23

Good to know there is someone that feels the same as i am :) I guess this is the process of globalisation for which english was chosen as the leading language. In this process we may lose ourselves as our native language is just as part of ourselves as our "native" culture tailored to our thinking and to our history like english jokes are understood only by english :) Every country has it's history and it's language is a part of our history right? Well i leave all that to all of you who are subscribed to this mailing list (i know this discussion may not fit too well in marketing mailing list so if you don't like it then delete and ignore it ;-) ) Best Regards Piotrek Juzwiak -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

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Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier
Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier
Matthias Fehring
Piotrek Juzwiak
Ricardo Varas Santana
Александр Мелентьев