Moves to include women, or any other perceived minority, into the mainstream is always dicey, with affirmative action more often than not being considered as reverse discrimination. This program by GNOME [1][2], for example preferentially offers women paid internships, because they are women. And openSUSE-Women was created to make openSUSE more inclusive and gender-neutral already, wasn't it? Is there really scope for another body/sub-organisation for the same apparent purpose? [1] http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWomen/OutreachProgram2010 [2]http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWomen/OutreachProgram2010/SpreadTheWord P.S. I feel there is too much of cross posting between the marketing and ambassador lists. Could there not be a clear demarcation of the lists' scope? just asking. -- Koushik Kumar Nundy http://kknundy.blogspot.com http://thinkbiosoln.com http://en.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Hei Helen, Hello all, I'm not sure if I would like to go through this kind of discussion... We have several initiatives to make women feel confortable in FOSS or in any other IT issues. As developer in the past and as manager nowdays the only thing that I can say is: it's hard but wich profession isn't?!? My best women group reference: http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Women%27s_Caucus after read you will see besides "Barriers to women's participation" we all looking for the same ideal! Best, Izabel 2010/9/20 Helen

Jimmy et al,

(sorry to hear about your car, Jimmy!)

Interesting idea - I'm in two minds about this; on the one hand, clearly we need to encourage women to use and participate in FOSS and openSUSE specifically; on the other hand, 'tokenism'  (ie being included just becuase of your gender) and being treated as a minority group is something I find embarrassing. I want to be included because, well, I'm cool and I know stuff and do a good job, you know. Gender is pretty much irrelevant to me most of the time.

My experience so far of FOSS is one of unquestioning inclusiveness - "Oh you're starting a LUG? Cool, how can we help? We're having a chat on IRC, come join in...." Although someone on the marketing channel the other day mentioned some women even receiving threats for intruding on the 'boy's club'. So that was a surprise to me, and I was sorry to hear it.

Having said all that, given that it is a very male-dominated community, it's probably a good idea to have an avenue where women's concerns can be aired and we can talk about specific ways to appeal to women and to facilitate their involvement. I think Izabel Valverde might have something to say about this too, I hope, we had a brief chat the other day.

I think this ties in with the current interest in identifying our users and community. (I feel these two groups are distinct: users can become community....)

I'd certainly be willing to be involved.

Helen

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Jimmy Pierre wrote:

...

Greetings,

My report on SFD 2010 will be delayed because my car was vandalized last night. However, while waiting for the paperwork, I had this idea:

Women in Free and Open Source

Most distribution have a women group. How about an openSUSE women group? Hence, women ambassadors? I know many women in France that I can approach on this matter.

Just my 2 cents :-)

Cheers,

Jimmy

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Jimmy, thank you for sharing your experiences. It's funny, mine are a little similar, except that I'm the one grabbing the keyboard! It's not because you're the man, it's just because you're the one who knows what to do in this situation. The separateness of conversation over a meal that you mention is just because of different interests. When my husband talks work with his colleagues, I'll talk about whatever with their wives. We don't share their work. Often we have little in common other than babies and housekeeping (sadly they are never into computers, either.) A LUG is a different matter! We are all there to share a common interest. That link that Izabel provided is an excellent resource, and includes some sound analysis of the issues, as well as suggestions for affirmative action. That you want to encourage women in Linux is wonderful, but I don't think a group is really the way to go. It just encourages separation.

From the participants on these lists it's clear that openSUSE has a focus of building an inclusive community, and that, I think, is the way to go. It's not a 'neat and tidy' solution - you can't set a page up and it's all done. It's an ongoing commitment. Standing up to abusive or exclusive behavior can be a little confronting at times.

I don't feel 'geeky' language or jargon is a particular problem for women - it can be for any non-computer people. Sometimes jargon is a useful, efficient way of communicating. And sometimes we like being part of the 'in crowd' and using our secret language! There is maybe a cultural difference between the programmer/developer group and the non technical general user/community group, and that could be alienating to both women and men who don't feel they are knowledgeable enough to be involved (when of course they can contribute in many other ways). warmest wishes Helen On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 5:38 AM, Jimmy Pierre wrote:

I totally agree with you about women being a minority in Linux. Should we men try to talk less in Geek language for starters? OK, we are busy, and when our wives ask for something, what I tend to do is not giving the attention that she deserves, but attempting to get hold of the keyboard or mouse and solve whatever the problem was. I do the same with my sister, friends and neighbours. Slap!

<snip for brevity>

I feel like buying them a domain name LinuxPourNousLesFemmes like the famous cosmetics advert  Stop! What am I doing right now? I am even choosing their LUG name? Sorry!

Just my 2 cents.

Best, Jimmy

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

From a woman's point of view, this is a pretty terrible page. It really does that whole minority-group thing that makes me uncomfortable. I can't assume that I speak for other women though - I've always been a bit of a geek. But I think the reality is that most women who get interested in Linux will have a bit of a geeky streak anyway.

I'm really busy right now but I'll have a look at this page and see if I can make it sound a little more inviting and less like an equal-opportunity speech. The other thing is, how do women even find such a page? I didn't know there was a women's mailing list, because it didn't even occur to me to look for one! Equality and inclusiveness isn't about creating little subgroups. It's about making sure that everyone is treated with decency, and not indulging in rude toilet humour or sexist humour, treating newbie/silly questions kindly, not assuming ignorance nor knowledge. Has anyone noticed the rather rude comment that is usually on the opensuse-chat page when you log into Freenode? Where does that sort of thing come from? This is really pretty gross and unnacceptable. Fixing this would be a nice first step. " Topic for #opensuse-chat is: Welcome to openSUSE chat! Tech support is in #suse :: <<sPiN-> well its new to me and it excites me sexually :: * sPiN tweaks his nipples with jumper cables in anticipation - * sPiN touches him self in anticipation" regards, Helen On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Rajko M. wrote:

On Monday 20 September 2010 16:41:38 Jimmy Pierre wrote:

...

... How about an openSUSE women group?

http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Women

but not much more activity since page was created.

-- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 21 September 2010 05:26:08 Rajko M. wrote:

On Monday 20 September 2010 16:41:38 Jimmy Pierre wrote:

...

... How about an openSUSE women group?

http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Women right, and there is a mailing list as well. M

but not much more activity since page was created.

-- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org