2009/6/17 Rémy Marquis :

Imho, if you truly want to reflect the diversity of open-source software in this name, you should change every "Linux" occurrence to "GNU/Linux/X11/KDE/Apache/etc." which is not appropriate. lame argument. On desktop you don't use Apache, on file server you don't use X11/KDE etc, but you DO use GNU everywhere. Every installation you are referencing as "Linux" is REALLY "GNU/Linux" and you should be aware of it. While all other components are optional, GNU tools are a must. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

And what would be these tools, Linux included, without GNU ? Nothing... Le mercredi 17 juin 2009 à 21:55 +0400, Александр Мелентьев a écrit :

2009/6/17 Rémy Marquis :

...

Imho, if you truly want to reflect the diversity of open-source software in this name, you should change every "Linux" occurrence to "GNU/Linux/X11/KDE/Apache/etc." which is not appropriate. lame argument. On desktop you don't use Apache, on file server you don't use X11/KDE etc, but you DO use GNU everywhere. Every installation you are referencing as "Linux" is REALLY "GNU/Linux" and you should be aware of it. While all other components are optional, GNU tools are a must.

2009/6/17 Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier :

The "Linux" vs. "GNU/Linux" debate has been going on as long as I've been using Linux (that's 13 years) and probably even longer than that.

I'd like to suggest that this isn't a terribly productive discussion or one that's likely to 1) change anyone's mind, 2) change anything, and 3) do anything to further adoption of GNU, Linux, open source, free software, and/or openSUSE.

Some people feel very strongly for using "GNU/Linux," and others are just as passionate against it. It's pretty much something we need to agree to disagree on, or it's going to be divisive and not productive in terms of being effective ambassadors or promoters of openSUSE. I'm sure that's not the goal here.

Best,

Zonker I absolutely perfectly agree with you on that. Unproductivity of this discussion is purely obvious. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

As a community supporting Free Software Philosophy it is wise to use the term GNU/Linux to make people aware of GNU and thereby of Free Software Philosophy (if you say only linux, people will search over the net on linux and might not come across gnu project http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-users-never-heard-of-gnu.html ). Also sending out the correct message to the community at large is our social responsibility. The people who oppose the idea do not have any concrete reason. Anyone with little knowledge of history is aware that the Free operating systems that we use today are the results of GNU project and effort by FSF. We do not lose anything by giving due credit to them, but we gain the stature of a brave community speaking boldly of freedom. I request IMHO to this community to follow the right track by showing respect to the effort that started it all. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

I follow Joe there is an endless discussion about this. An you should noted that was an final point!

It can not end that way! It has to be a strict bold decision. Either you support Free Software Movement, or you don't. If for OpenSUSE it is about showing fake support for free software philosophy, then I am afraid true Free Software Supporters will tend to avoid (or boycott) OpenSUSE upon understanding such duality. So you see, a clear stand from the community is needed. Being an Ambassador for some particular product is just like being a salesman, if you do not have any philosophy or social cause behind it. Opensource is just a development model and not a philosophical and sociological activity. Free software movement is a movement for a better future. I wish OpenSUSE ambassador community becomes a community of people who will have the vision of this better future. Otherwise ambassador program will look like unpaid salesman program. Ambassadors are not able to decide on supporting boldly even the first few principles of the guiding principle for ambassadors ? Its sad and funny :) - ADM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Sorry Abhradip, I'm quite simple. I don't know you, but I'm really courious about your contribution to openSUSE Community. I'm talking serious, I'm not judging, but I'm really worried because we have a lot of work to do with openSUSE Project and you still wasting your time discussing your opinions. What do you think about we participate more, promote more, develop more... and really, if you want to call XuniL/UNG ou GNU/Linux I don't care. Common, we have a lot of work to do, please enjoy us! You have a very nice speak, I'm wondering if you could call more and more people to the Project, its really important to openSUSE! All the best. PS: There's just ONE thing which makes me angry, feel a massive angry: people discussing and losing time of producing. PS: I won't reply, its my 2 cents. 2009/6/17 Abhradip mukherjee :

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 3:56 AM, Chuck Payne wrote:

...

Sorry for posting from blackberry I know it top post and. I'm sorry. I support opensource and I support freesoftware.  I have issue with the last postn becuase I have a tought to get ppl to say linux correctly.

Correctly it is GNU/Linux.

...

So to say I am not a good supporter because I don't say gnu linux really rubs me wrong.

It is not just about uttering the words. It is about showing your support to the Free Software Movement by acknowledging the work by GNU project.

...

I love and promt linux becuase it free

I hope you are talking about "free as in freedom" and not "free as in gratis". If you are talking about gratis then you have understood it wrong and should go through http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html

...

and I promt so much opensource there is a reason my nickname is terror.

If you are a supporter of  "free software", then why do you promote "open source"? "open source" is not necessarily free software! See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html

...

Please it does't what you called as long as you love it.

What kind of love makes you give no credit to people who deserve it? And also, it is not about only you but also about people you talk to. Like you said, you are teaching people of "open source". How can this make people aware of the importance of freedom in technology. Check out : http://passion4freedom.org/concept

- ADM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

-- /\ Gabriel Stein gabrielstein@gmail.com +55 51 9953 1337 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

I'm talking serious, I'm not judging, but I'm really worried because we have a lot of work to do with openSUSE Project and you still wasting your time discussing your opinions. To me, it is much more important to be in a movement that has aim. Popularizing OpenSUSE as a mere product can not be an aim with sociological aspect. We have to set our goals right before we create a bigger community or else the community will be aimless. What shall we answer to a future ambassador if he/she asks that "if as per guiding

What do you think about we participate more, promote more, develop more... and really, if you want to call XuniL/UNG ou GNU/Linux I don't care. I think a quote by stallman to a similar question would be enough to answer such carelessness : "This would be wise advice, if only the situation were like that—if

@Gabriel principles it is stated that we must support the philosophy of free software above anything then why were not you guys careful enough to show it in the very beginning of the movement? Why all the pages on wiki are talking about "Linux" (a kernel only) and is making GNU and FSF irrelevant as the consequence of that? Why on all events you guys have called it "Linux" and made general people understand contribution of Linux kernel is much more than GNU system? Why we promote a now non-free software (i.e. Linux Kernel) being supporters of Free Software Movement?" Also the opinions are not only mine but of the larger Free Software Community and people like stallman for whom today it is possible for us to discuss on a variant of an operating system that stood against the non-free world of software. the job were done and it were time to relax. If only that were true! But challenges abound, and this is no time to take the future for granted. Our community's strength rests on commitment to freedom and cooperation. Using the name GNU/Linux is a way for people to remind themselves and inform others of these goals." Now pls dont ask me about Stallman's contributions to OpenSUSE! :)

Common, we have a lot of work to do, please enjoy us! You have a very nice speak, I'm wondering if you could call more and more people to the Project, its really important to openSUSE! My efforts will always be for the benefit of Free Software Movement. If promoting a product means promoting the philosophy of FSM , I am always there for it. Bringing people and forming a community is not a hard job (because we always have a Free Software Community and any FSC will provide support to OpenSUSE if OpenSUSE decides to support FSM) but being answerable for your actions to the people you bring in is a much more tough job. Being a responsible person of FSC I can not recommend OpenSUSE from my heart until I am sure how much OpenSUSE community cares about FSM.

I do agree with Gabriel that we cannot let ourselves get dragged down by such details. Perfecting words when there's much to be done overall in the project does slow us down, take us off focus, and detracts from the work that hundreds of contributors and members of openSUSE have put into the project. I dont think it will yield that much loss of momentum. Wiki admins only need to change the main protected pages and others (if not anyone else I along with my Free Software Friends are enough) need to bring

You continuously use the word Freedom and yet you continually and strongly put down others who disagree with you. It seems to be an anathema to the very words you have preached when opposing views aren't given the chance to exercise the very freedom you espouse. Freedom of speech/thought does not mean it can not be questioned. Listener has the right (or freedom) to correct, question and counter

@Bryen the changes to other wiki pages related to community. It should be clearly stated in the protected pages that OpenSUSE is a GNU/Linux and a link associated with it to http://gnu.org or an internal link stating the principles of Free Software Movement. The usage of the term should be given a place in guiding principles to give a more clear view of our boldness in supporting FSM. We just need to show some spine in supporting FSM. That's it! thoughts expressed by the speaker. @ Rajko

The name Linux is nowadays established, as above, not by Linux insiders, long term users. but by outside world that needs some simple name for a whole system, and changing that is impossible. Just as it is impossible to change new not so favorable meaning of word hacker, use word frames instead of word windows and many other things.

and @Martin

As for the community in general, we can't control the terminology people use - we just have to accept that there's competing terminology - and hopefully in the end we'll prevail :-)

Quote by RMS : <quote>"People justify adding non-free software in the name of the “popularity of Linux”—in effect, valuing popularity above freedom....Caldera's CEO openly urged users to drop the goal of freedom and work instead for the “popularity of Linux”. Adding non-free software to the GNU/Linux system may increase the popularity, if by popularity we mean the number of people using some of GNU/Linux in combination with non-free software. But at the same time, it implicitly encourages the community to accept non-free software as a good thing, and forget the goal of freedom. It is no use driving faster if you can't stay on the road."</quote> Similarly if we think saying Linux may make us much more in ease with general people unaware of FSM then we are just ignoring the fact that we are running away from our duty to walk that extra mile to correct them. In such a case how much popularity we gain will be ultimately out of the track and will not be beneficial for the future. Also, if RMS had thought it was impossible for him to beat proprietary giants in the '80s and had taken a back seat by working for proprietary companies, we would have been left today in a world without competition and freedom (and nothing like OpenSUSE). Ambassadors should work not only to promote a particular product but a philosophy too that made such things possible. A line in http://passion4freedom.org/concept might be just appropriate to mention here : "The fight might be tough, but we must fight. The changes are not easy to make, but change must come." - ADM P.S. Thanks Bryen for your nice reply and analysis. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

@ Jigish

Usage of GNU/Linux on front page would be nice, but being adamant on replacing every instance of Linux with GNU/Linux is a bit extremist, we all know it is not a good thing to be a zealot/extrimist.

Duality in character is never a good thing and openSUSE wiki should not possess such duality. The way you corrected my spelling you have to understand that we need to correct people who call it "Linux" my making them aware that it is just the kernel and not an OS itself. How would you describe debian's efforts http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/05/222239 and http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7295 ? They are not using Linux as kernel. You see, it is truly a GNU system with Linux kernel and just that. Saying anything else will make it wrong. I am not behaving like an extremist, but like a true person not willing to misguide the community.

As Bryan pointed out, allow everyone the same freedom you have of calling it GNU/Linux, let other people call it Linux if it saves them bit of typing. If you cannot allow that freedom, you are being selective about freedom other people should have.

Allowing people to spread wrong information is not allowing freedom of speech. Calling it Linux is simply a wrong approach and it misleads the community by emphasizing "Linux" kernel over the GNU system. @Gabriel

Free software to me its only software which I can contribute, translate, do more >documentation, and better: really works!

Why dont you join some job in non-free software corporation. They will let you do it for them. You know where the difference is? They will let you do it only for them and not for the bigger community. In case of Free Software you get the chance to do it for global community and humanity and that is possible because in Free Software Movement we have some values and principles. Philosophy is what made free software what it is. Ignoring it will result a non-free future.

I'm not interested in that stuff, and please, don't use my name in this kind of bullshit. If >openSUSE begins to discuss that and waste time with this, I'm out.

Have courage to face replies and talk to the point instead of showing unnecessary arrogance. Just an advice. -ADM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

@ Rajko M.

Replacing Linux with GNU/Linux will change the original meaning and that is not what you, nor anybody else, wants to do.

"Replacing Linux with GNU/Linux will change the original meaning". Looking for clarification on the "original meaning". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2009-06-19 at 02:15 +0530, Abhradip mukherjee wrote:

Allowing people to spread wrong information is not allowing freedom of speech. Calling it Linux is simply a wrong approach and it misleads the community by emphasizing "Linux" kernel over the GNU system.

With all due respect, let's emphasize "openSUSE" (you know, the product we're working on here) over GNU or Linux. Yes, we thank and pay respect (and in many cases help) the causes of GNU and Linux and the FSF (well, I could argue about that, but I won't) that have brought us to where we are today, but if we waste time talking about how we should reference what is to the user *an obscure computer terminology* (You, I and everyone here knows how important the Linux kernel and the GNU software is, but average users don't care), then you're going back on the goal of all of us: to get openSUSE (and thus open source software) into the hands of as many people as possible. And let me repeat something I said earlier: the average user who is interested in trying something new other than Vista or XP or OS X *doesn't care about GNU or Linux or anything*. That's the "mysterious internals" of the computer, what they care about is that we give them a great experience both on the software and in the community. So let's worry more about that than about what we call GNU or Linux or something. -- Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy openSUSE Member & Ambassador Baton Rouge & New Orleans, LA www.twitter.com/KevinDupuy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

PLONK Am Dienstag, den 23.06.2009, 01:45 +0530 schrieb Abhradip mukherjee:

@Fabrice

...

Freedom of choice is rather something that matters to me. Do you understand ? Sorry for my late reply :) Yes I understand and I thank you for your support to Freedom of Choice. But let me politely remind you that misinterpreting a philosophy is not a good thing. Freedom of choice is not applicable here because the choice is being made in between right and wrong.

On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 12:50 AM, Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy wrote:

...

With all due respect, let's emphasize "openSUSE" (you know, the product we're working on here) over GNU or Linux. Yes, we thank and pay respect (and in many cases help) the causes of GNU and Linux and the FSF (well, I could argue about that, but I won't) that have brought us to where we are today, but if we waste time talking about how we should reference what is to the user *an obscure computer terminology* (You, I and everyone here knows how important the Linux kernel and the GNU software is, but average users don't care),

I am not saying that you should go to a ice-cream shop owner and tell him why this is called GNU/Linux. You can just say "openSUSE is built upon the strong foundation of GNU/Linux system". To them it is no different from saying "openSUSE.....of Linux system". They wont understand any of them. But I am talking about the active community, the contributors, the ambassadors, the openSUSE project's official terminology. openSUSE project should show the support to Free Software Movement by officially calling it GNU/Linux. The ambassadors must refer to it as GNU/Linux in front of future developer meets to inspire them to develop free technology (A nice non-free project for openSUSE wont help free software movement. Opera might be a good example of such kind.). Community should call it GNU/Linux to remind themselves of their main goal to contribute to free software movement. Contributors must understand that they are contributing to a better future (instead of thinking that they are just developing a better product for sale).

...

then you're going back on the goal of all of us: to get openSUSE (and thus open source software) into the hands of as many people as possible.

Good logic, but who told you that people will run away from it if they hear it is GNU/Linux or a free software instead of just linux and open source software?

...

And let me repeat something I said earlier: the average user who is interested in trying something new other than Vista or XP or OS X *doesn't care about GNU or Linux or anything*.

That's something we must try to change. We should try to tell them that it is better for you to use free software if you want to be assured that your data and system is protected from any bad coding. In case of free software we can say that because we have access to original source code to check and a license that allows you to use it anyway you want for any period of time.

...

That's the "mysterious internals" of the computer, what they care about is that we give them a great experience both on the software and in the community.

So as I said changing the name wont affect the common user base negatively but can motivate developers more.

...

So let's worry more about that than about what we call GNU or Linux or something.

Lets worry about this community being misguided by underestimating common users and not letting developers and contributors be aware of GNU project and its importance.

- ADM -- more http://karl-tux-stadt.de/ktuxs http://www.xing.com/go/invita/11208336

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 4:38 AM, Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy wrote:

It's a waste of time. Who cares? Seriously. Who cares? A few people who are extremely radical for "free software" may, but they are outnumbered by the amount of people, even community members who really don't care.

and

First: the only difference that I can tell between "free software" and "open source" is that "free software" is a philosophy and "open source" is a technical description. And I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm not into selling people into philosophies when it comes to computer software. I save that for my other job at a political organization.

It's not that way. If you are an open source enthusiast, you are not our enemy but a person close to free software movement. Because "Nearly all open source software is free software; the two terms describe almost the same category of software. But they stand for views based on fundamentally different values. Open source is a development methodology; free software is a social movement. For the free software movement, free software is an ethical imperative, because only free software respects the users' freedom. By contrast, the philosophy of open source considers issues in terms of how to make software “better”—in a practical sense only. It says that non-free software is a suboptimal solution. For the free software movement, however, non-free software is a social problem, and moving to free software is the solution."(RMS). It is just that you do not understand the ideology behind the software you use. You know why we prefer openoffice over other non-free software even if it is technically might not be superior? That's because they value the philosophy of free software and open source. So you see without the strength of philosophy, both free software and open source movement is bound to fail. It's not all that technical, my friend. And we do not tell you to sell philosophy but we ask you to develop software maintaing the philosophy of free software and sell it as any other product if you like. Making users aware of their rights is a different issue and that must be done through conferences, news paper articles, working with human rights groups etc. making your potential buyer aware of free software philosophy is a welcome thing but it is more important for developers to be aware of it first. It's sad that you don't care about it like many people don't care about pollution, global warming, hunting of animals etc.

It's Linux. It's going to be that way, changing it to GNU/Linux has never worked, and there's no reason in wasting time correcting people about GNU/Linux, especially when we've got so many people spelling "openSUSE" wrong.

and

Second: it's not about scaring people away because of the name, it's about wasting time worrying about this. --

"It's pollution everywhere, it's going to be that way. Trying to make the world pollution free has never worked. And there's no reason in wasting time to make people aware about the ill effects of polution and encourage them to use things that dont pollute. Especially when we still lack industrial growths in so many countries." and "It's not about scaring people with speeches against pollution but it's about wasting time worrying about this" It looks similar to me. Why I say it is as bad as pollution? "The main argument for the term “open source software” is that “free software” makes some people uneasy. That's true: talking about freedom, about ethical issues, about responsibilities as well as convenience, is asking people to think about things they might rather ignore. This can trigger discomfort, and some people may reject the idea for that. It does not follow that society would be better off if we stop talking about these things. Years ago, free software developers noticed this discomfort reaction, and some started exploring an approach for avoiding it. They figured that by keeping quiet about ethics and freedom, and talking only about the immediate practical benefits of certain free software, they might be able to “sell” the software more effectively to certain users, especially business. The term “open source” is offered as a way of doing more of this—a way to be “more acceptable to business.” The views and values of the Open Source movement stem from this decision. This approach has proved effective, in its own terms. Today many people are switching to free software for purely practical reasons. That is good, as far as it goes, but that isn't all we need to do! Attracting users to free software is not the whole job, just the first step. Sooner or later these users will be invited to switch back to proprietary software for some practical advantage. Countless companies seek to offer such temptation, and why would users decline? Only if they have learned to value the freedom free software gives them, for its own sake. It is up to us to spread this idea—and in order to do that, we have to talk about freedom. A certain amount of the “keep quiet” approach to business can be useful for the community, but we must have plenty of freedom talk too. At present, we have plenty of “keep quiet”, but not enough freedom talk. Most people involved with free software say little about freedom—usually because they seek to be “more acceptable to business.” Software distributors especially show this pattern. Some GNU/Linux operating system distributions add proprietary packages to the basic free system, and they invite users to consider this an advantage, rather than a step backwards from freedom. We are failing to keep up with the influx of free software users, failing to teach people about freedom and our community as fast as they enter it. This is why non-free software (which Qt was when it first became popular), and partially non-free operating system distributions, find such fertile ground. To stop using the word “free” now would be a mistake; we need more, not less, talk about freedom. If those using the term “open source” draw more users into our community, that is a contribution, but the rest of us will have to work even harder to bring the issue of freedom to those users' attention. We have to say, “It's free software and it gives you freedom!”—more and louder than ever before."(RMS) read the full article at http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html -ADM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org