New uim.spec and some notes for Japanese

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Re: [m17n] AdobeReader crashes on...

UTUMI Hirosi

25 Aug 2005 25 Aug '05

06:32

Hi, I tested OpenSUSE 10.0 beta2. Most things are OK, but uim-anthy doesn't work for me. uim.spec doesn't register uim to gtk2-immodule properly. Try them: # rpm -e uim-gtk2 $ gedit Right click on gedit -> Choose "Input Method" -> Still you can find "uim". I updated uim.spec and I wrote some notes for Japanese. 1. New uim.spec See uim.spec and uim.spec.diff please. Changelog: - register uim to gtk2-immodule more properly. - run uim-module-manager to register uim modules. - enable uim-m17nlib. - add uim-qt. - # uim-qt was merged into uim. - add uim-qt-applet. - # we need to enable uim-qt-applet for uim-qt. After you update uim, remove ~/.uim.d/ please. (to initialize uim configurations) 2. scim-anthy is better than scim-uim-anthy. SUSE installs scim-uim for the default Japanese input. I think scim-anthy is better. 3. Font rendering for Japanese I think outline fonts are better than embedded bitmaps. I added some lines to /etc/fonts/fonts.conf. See fonts.conf.diff please. 4. (OT) SUSE bugzilla requires addresses and telephone numbers. SUSE bugzilla requires Novell accounts. Novell accounts require addresses and telephone numbers. So we must tell addresses and telephone numbers for posting bugs. I don't think it's a good idea. Mike, you are one of the best developers in Linux Multilingualization. Many developers/users respect you. Thanks for all your work. Hirosi __________________________________ Save the earth http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/ondanka/

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uim.spec.bz2 (application/x-bzip2 — 4.6 KB)
uim.spec.diff.bz2 (application/x-bzip2 — 2.6 KB)
fonts.conf.diff.bz2 (application/x-bzip2 — 427 bytes)

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Mike FABIAN

25 Aug 25 Aug

10:12

New subject: [m17n] New uim.spec and some notes for Japanese

UTUMI Hirosi さんは書きました:

...

I tested OpenSUSE 10.0 beta2. Most things are OK, but uim-anthy doesn't work for me. uim.spec doesn't register uim to gtk2-immodule properly.

Try them: # rpm -e uim-gtk2 $ gedit Right click on gedit -> Choose "Input Method" -> Still you can find "uim".

You need to run SuSEconfig --module gtk2 after installing or deleting uim-gtk2. When using YaST2 to install, this is done automatically. You removed the following from the .spec file: %post -# trigger run of SuSEconfig.gtk2 to register/unregister this input module -# by calling gtk-query-immodules-2.0: -touch var/adm/SuSEconfig/run-gtk and added: +%post gtk2 +%run_ldconfig +if [ -x $r/opt/gnome/bin/gtk-query-immodules-2.0 ] ; then + /opt/gnome/bin/gtk-query-immodules-2.0 > /etc/opt/gnome/gtk-2.0/gtk.immodules +fi + +if [ -x $r/opt/gnome/bin/gtk-query-immodules-2.0-64 ] ; then + /opt/gnome/bin/gtk-query-immodules-2.0-64 > /etc/opt/gnome/gtk-2.0/gtk64.immodules +fi I think the gtk2 module doesn't need ldconfig. You are right that updating of the gtk.immodules file should be moved to the "%post gtk2 section". But one should not call gtk-query-immodules-2.0 directly, one should just touch /var/adm/SuSEconfig/run-gtk to tell SuSEconfig.gtk2 that an update is needed. -- Mike FABIAN http://www.suse.de/~mfabian 睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。

Mike FABIAN

10:42

New subject: [m17n] New uim.spec and some notes for Japanese

Mike FABIAN さんは書きました:

...

UTUMI Hirosi さんは書きました:

...
I tested OpenSUSE 10.0 beta2. Most things are OK, but uim-anthy doesn't work for me. uim.spec doesn't register uim to gtk2-immodule properly.

[...]

...

You are right that updating of the gtk.immodules file should be moved to the "%post gtk2 section".

Done, see https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=112931 -- Mike FABIAN http://www.suse.de/~mfabian 睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。

Mike FABIAN

10:48

New subject: [m17n] New uim.spec and some notes for Japanese

UTUMI Hirosi さんは書きました:

...

- enable uim-m17nlib.

This is disabled on purpose on request of Zhe Su (SCIM author) because scim-m17n is also available. scim-m17n works just fine and supporting m17n in uim as well is therefore not necessary and only makes it more confusing for beginners.

...

- add uim-qt. - # uim-qt was merged into uim. - add uim-qt-applet. - # we need to enable uim-qt-applet for uim-qt.

It is probably too late to add this for SuSE Linux 10.0, I may not be allowed to add new sub-packages anymore. When I last tried, uim-qt didn't work well, therefore I didn't add it yet. Unfortunately I didn't have time to find out why it didn't work.

...

After you update uim, remove ~/.uim.d/ please. (to initialize uim configurations)

I do no have a ~/.uim.d/, only ~/.uim

...

2. scim-anthy is better than scim-uim-anthy.

I agree.

...

SUSE installs scim-uim for the default Japanese input. I think scim-anthy is better.

No, scim-uim is not the only default Japanese input, *both* scim-uim *and* scim-anthy are installed by default. -- Mike FABIAN http://www.suse.de/~mfabian 睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。

UTUMI Hirosi

16:12

New subject: m17nlib support in uim (Was: Re: [m17n] New uim.spec...)

Hi, --- Mike FABIAN wrote:

...

UTUMI Hirosi さんは書きました:

...
- enable uim-m17nlib.

This is disabled on purpose on request of Zhe Su (SCIM author) because scim-m17n is also available. scim-m17n works just fine and supporting m17n in uim as well is therefore not necessary and only makes it more confusing for beginners.

Then we should remove uim-anthy/uim-canna/uim-skk (or uim itself), because scim supports anthy/canna/skk. We can remove scim-uim for Japanese, then UIM packages will be optional. Beginners will not be confused. (Mandriva's uim packages support m17nlib.) I think scim-anthy and scim-uim-anthy will confuse beginners. scim-anthy is good enough for most users.

...

...
- add uim-qt. - # uim-qt was merged into uim. - add uim-qt-applet. - # we need to enable uim-qt-applet for uim-qt.

It is probably too late to add this for SuSE Linux 10.0, I may not be allowed to add new sub-packages anymore.

ok.

...

...
After you update uim, remove ~/.uim.d/ please. (to initialize uim configurations)

I do no have a ~/.uim.d/, only ~/.uim

Run uim-pref-gtk and change some settings please. It will make ~/.uim.d/.

...

...
SUSE installs scim-uim for the default Japanese input. I think scim-anthy is better.

No, scim-uim is not the only default Japanese input, *both* scim-uim *and* scim-anthy are installed by default.

SUSE 10.0 beta2 didn't install scim-anthy for Japanese. (Is it my mistake ?) Thanks. Hirosi __________________________________ Save the earth http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/ondanka/

Mike FABIAN

16:12

New subject: m17nlib support in uim

UTUMI Hirosi さんは書きました:

...

--- Mike FABIAN wrote:

...
UTUMI Hirosi さんは書きました:

...
- enable uim-m17nlib.

This is disabled on purpose on request of Zhe Su (SCIM author) because scim-m17n is also available. scim-m17n works just fine and supporting m17n in uim as well is therefore not necessary and only makes it more confusing for beginners.

Then we should remove uim-anthy/uim-canna/uim-skk (or uim itself), because scim supports anthy/canna/skk.

Maybe you are right and we should enable uim-m17nlib to offer more choice.

...

We can remove scim-uim for Japanese, then UIM packages will be optional. Beginners will not be confused.

And maybe include the uim packages on the CDs/DVD but not install them by default? I'll consider that for the next SuSE Linux version after 10.0.

...

...
No, scim-uim is not the only default Japanese input, *both* scim-uim *and* scim-anthy are installed by default.

SUSE 10.0 beta2 didn't install scim-anthy for Japanese. (Is it my mistake ?)

Apparently it is only on the DVD but missing on the CDs. This must be a mistake, thank you for reporting this! -- Mike FABIAN http://www.suse.de/~mfabian 睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。

UTUMI Hirosi

16:17

New subject: m17nlib support in uim

Hi, --- Mike FABIAN wrote:

...

UTUMI Hirosi さんは書きました:

...
We can remove scim-uim for Japanese, then UIM packages will be optional. Beginners will not be confused.

And maybe include the uim packages on the CDs/DVD but not install them by default?

Yes.

...

I'll consider that for the next SuSE Linux version after 10.0.

:-)

...

...
...
No, scim-uim is not the only default Japanese input, *both* scim-uim *and* scim-anthy are installed by default.

SUSE 10.0 beta2 didn't install scim-anthy for Japanese. (Is it my mistake ?)

Apparently it is only on the DVD but missing on the CDs.

This must be a mistake, thank you for reporting this!

I understand. I'll go to bed. Thanks! Hirosi __________________________________ Save the earth http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/ondanka/

Mike FABIAN

26 Aug 26 Aug

13:46

New subject: [m17n] Re: m17nlib support in uim

UTUMI Hirosi さんは書きました:

...

...
...
SUSE 10.0 beta2 didn't install scim-anthy for Japanese. (Is it my mistake ?)

Apparently it is only on the DVD but missing on the CDs.

This must be a mistake, thank you for reporting this!

I understand.

Fixed for Beta4. In Beta4, scim-anthy should be on the CDs as well, not only on the 9 GB DVD. -- Mike FABIAN http://www.suse.de/~mfabian 睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。

Mike FABIAN

13 Sep 13 Sep

13:53

New subject: [m17n] Re: m17nlib support in uim

Mike FABIAN さんは書きました:

...

UTUMI Hirosi さんは書きました:

...
...
...
SUSE 10.0 beta2 didn't install scim-anthy for Japanese. (Is it my mistake ?)

Apparently it is only on the DVD but missing on the CDs.

This must be a mistake, thank you for reporting this!

I understand.

Fixed for Beta4. In Beta4, scim-anthy should be on the CDs as well, not only on the 9 GB DVD.

The bug still persisted but should be finally fixed for RC3 now, see: http://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=116730 -- Mike FABIAN http://www.suse.de/~mfabian 睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。

Takashi Iwai

25 Aug 25 Aug

16:21

New subject: [m17n] m17nlib support in uim (Was: Re: [m17n] New uim.spec...)

At Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:00:18 +0900 (JST), UTUMI Hirosi wrote:

...

Hi,

--- Mike FABIAN wrote:

...
UTUMI Hirosi さんは書きました:

...
- enable uim-m17nlib.

This is disabled on purpose on request of Zhe Su (SCIM author) because scim-m17n is also available. scim-m17n works just fine and supporting m17n in uim as well is therefore not necessary and only makes it more confusing for beginners.

Then we should remove uim-anthy/uim-canna/uim-skk (or uim itself), because scim supports anthy/canna/skk.

We can remove scim-uim for Japanese, then UIM packages will be optional. Beginners will not be confused. (Mandriva's uim packages support m17nlib.)

I think scim-anthy and scim-uim-anthy will confuse beginners. scim-anthy is good enough for most users.

I agree to remove scim-uim from useability perspective, but then there would be people screaming about the regression on the latest version :)

...

...
...
SUSE installs scim-uim for the default Japanese input. I think scim-anthy is better.

No, scim-uim is not the only default Japanese input, *both* scim-uim *and* scim-anthy are installed by default.

SUSE 10.0 beta2 didn't install scim-anthy for Japanese. (Is it my mistake ?)

Might be. Anyway, it's already fixed on beta3. Takashi

Mike FABIAN

16:30

New subject: [m17n] m17nlib support in uim

Takashi Iwai さんは書きました:

...

...
SUSE 10.0 beta2 didn't install scim-anthy for Japanese. (Is it my mistake ?)

Might be. Anyway, it's already fixed on beta3.

No, it is still the same on beta3: "scim-anthy" is included on the 9GB DVD but neither on the 5GB DVD nor on the CD-set. -- Mike FABIAN http://www.suse.de/~mfabian 睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。

Mike FABIAN

12:34

New subject: SuSE bugzilla: addresses and telephone numbers (was: New uim.spec and some notes for Japanese)

UTUMI Hirosi さんは書きました:

...

4. (OT) SUSE bugzilla requires addresses and telephone numbers. SUSE bugzilla requires Novell accounts. Novell accounts require addresses and telephone numbers. So we must tell addresses and telephone numbers for posting bugs. I don't think it's a good idea.

Yes, if you go to http://bugzilla.novell.com to create your account, you are indeed asked for your address and telephone number. But there is an easy way to avoid that: Go to http://www.opensuse.org instead and create your account there! Click on "Create an account or log in" at the top of the welcome page of "http://www.opensuse.org" and follow the instructions. Because the theme on "http://bugzilla.novell.com" cannot easily be changed, an alternative theme for creating accounts was created for "http://www.opensuse.org" which does not ask neither for your telephone number nor for your address. The result is the same in the end, it doesn't matter at all whether you create your account on "http://bugzilla.novell.com" or on "http://www.opensuse.org", it is the same account. Doing it in "http://www.opensuse.org" just avoids that you have to enter your address and telephone number. -- Mike FABIAN http://www.suse.de/~mfabian 睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。

Mike FABIAN

13:36

New subject: [m17n] New uim.spec and some notes for Japanese

UTUMI Hirosi さんは書きました:

...

3. Font rendering for Japanese I think outline fonts are better than embedded bitmaps. I added some lines to /etc/fonts/fonts.conf. See fonts.conf.diff please.

The embedded bitmaps are enabled on purpose. See the following part of /etc/fonts/suse-pre-user.conf:  <match target="font"> <test name="lang" compare="contains"> <string>ja</string> <string>zh</string> <string>ko</string> </test> <edit name="embeddedbitmap" mode="assign"> <bool>true</bool> </edit> </match> The easiest way to disable embedded bitmaps for Japanese would be to remove the line <string>ja</string> in /etc/fonts/suse-pre-user.conf. But from the feedback I got until now, most users seemed to like the embedded bitmaps, therefore I enabled them by default. But not many users gave feedback at all about this subject. Personally I think that the embedded bitmaps are usually less beautiful but better readable. And I guess that a font designer who includes embedded bitmaps in his fonts does this because he believes they give better results than the outlines. If the font designer doesn't think so, why include embedded bitmaps at all? But if most users like the outlines better, we could of course change the default. The problem is that it seems to be highly subjective which rendering style is best. I want to disable embedded bitmaps for Japanese by default only if we are *sure* that the majority of users prefers the outlines. How to find out? -- Mike FABIAN http://www.suse.de/~mfabian 睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。

UTUMI Hirosi

15:23

New subject: Font rendering for Japanese (Was: Re: [m17n] New uim.spec...)

Hi Mike, --- Mike FABIAN wrote:

...

The easiest way to disable embedded bitmaps for Japanese would be to remove the line

<string>ja</string>

in /etc/fonts/suse-pre-user.conf.

ok. (but does it disable hinting? Hinting is not good for CJK [or square] characters)

...

But from the feedback I got until now, most users seemed to like the embedded bitmaps, therefore I enabled them by default. But not many users gave feedback at all about this subject.

hm.

...

Personally I think that the embedded bitmaps are usually less beautiful but better readable.

right.

...

And I guess that a font designer who includes embedded bitmaps in his fonts does this because he believes they give better results than the outlines. If the font designer doesn't think so, why include embedded bitmaps at all?

MS Windows 9x can't show antialiased outlines, so MS fonts/IPA fonts include embedded bitmaps to show small characters clearly. But freetype2 shows outlines beautifully, so I think outlines are better than bitmaps. Sazanami fonts also include bitmaps, but they are originally created for console. Someone merged them into Sazanami fonts.

...

But if most users like the outlines better, we could of course change the default. The problem is that it seems to be highly subjective which rendering style is best.

We can't choose the most beautiful girl for everyone. But he can choose the best girl for himself. :-)

...

I want to disable embedded bitmaps for Japanese by default only if we are *sure* that the majority of users prefers the outlines. How to find out?

suse-linux-ja? Fedora and Mandriva don't use embedded bitmaps for Japanese. Japanese fedora developers chose outlines. Thanks. Hirosi __________________________________ Save the earth http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/ondanka/

Mike FABIAN

16:12

New subject: [m17n] Font rendering for Japanese

UTUMI Hirosi さんは書きました:

...

--- Mike FABIAN wrote:

...
The easiest way to disable embedded bitmaps for Japanese would be to remove the line

<string>ja</string>

in /etc/fonts/suse-pre-user.conf.

ok. (but does it disable hinting? Hinting is not good for CJK [or square] characters)

It worked quite well as long as Akito San's patch was included, the IPA fonts were rendered nicely as well. As this patch is gone now, I disabled the hinting for the IPA fonts. See this part in /etc/fonts/suse-pre-user.conf:  <match target="font"> <test name="family"> <string>IPAMincho</string> <string>IPAGothic</string> <string>IPAPMincho</string> <string>IPAPGothic</string> <string>IPAUIGothic</string> </test> <edit name="hintstyle"> <const>hintnone</const> </edit> </match> We could easily disable the hinting for all CJK fonts with something like this:  which is also in /etc/fonts/suse-pre-user.conf but currently commented out because for the other CJK fonts the hinting appears to be not that bad as for the IPA fonts.

...

...
And I guess that a font designer who includes embedded bitmaps in his fonts does this because he believes they give better results than the outlines. If the font designer doesn't think so, why include embedded bitmaps at all?

MS Windows 9x can't show antialiased outlines, so MS fonts/IPA fonts include embedded bitmaps to show small characters clearly. But freetype2 shows outlines beautifully, so I think outlines are better than bitmaps.

Even on MS Windows XP, anti-aliasing is enabled by default only for sizes > 18 pixels. I didn't test the Japanese fonts but I verified that this is indeed the case for western fonts. To switch on anti-aliasing, the user has to select "Clear Type" in the Windows control centre manually. That means, the default look and feel of MS Windows XP looks rather bitmap like. These are not really bitmaps but outlines rendered without anti-aliasing with very high quality, which achieves practically the same quality as hand tuned bitmaps. Recently, during the beta phase of SuSE Linux 10.0, I made this the default for a selected list of fonts which have good byte code. See the following part of /etc/fonts/suse-pre-user.conf:      <match target="font"> <edit name="autohint"> <bool>true</bool> </edit> <edit name="antialias"> <bool>true</bool> </edit> </match>  <match target="font"> <test name="family"> <string>Andale Mono</string> <string>Arial</string> <string>Comic Sans MS</string> <string>Georgia</string> <string>Impact</string> <string>Trebuchet MS</string> <string>Verdana</string> <string>Courier New</string> <string>Times New Roman</string> <string>Tahoma</string> <string>Webdings</string> <string>Albany AMT</string> <string>Thorndale AMT</string> <string>Cumberland AMT</string> </test> <test name="pixelsize" compare="less_eq"> <double>0</double>  </test> <edit name="autohint"> <bool>false</bool> </edit> <edit name="antialias"> <bool>false</bool> </edit> </match> I used 18 pixel as the limit, just as on MS Windows. A handful of users had requested to make this the default, but after I had done this, I received many complaints from other users, therefore I disabled this rule again by setting the limit to 0 pixels. Although this style is the default on MS Windows XP, most Linux users apparently do not like it.

...

...
I want to disable embedded bitmaps for Japanese by default only if we are *sure* that the majority of users prefers the outlines. How to find out?

suse-linux-ja?

I'll ask there. -- Mike FABIAN http://www.suse.de/~mfabian 睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。

Mike FABIAN

15:32

New subject: embedded bitmaps (was: New uim.spec and some notes for Japanese)

Mike FABIAN さんは書きました:

...

UTUMI Hirosi さんは書きました:

...
3. Font rendering for Japanese I think outline fonts are better than embedded bitmaps. I added some lines to /etc/fonts/fonts.conf. See fonts.conf.diff please.

The embedded bitmaps are enabled on purpose. See the following part of /etc/fonts/suse-pre-user.conf:

[...] for another reason to stay with enabling the embedded bitmaps see http://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=105626 Wavy rendering with freetype2.1.10 and IPA fonts Until we updated to freetype 2.1.10 we used a patch from http://www.kde.gr.jp/~akito/patch/freetype2/ to improve the rendering for CJK fonts. I hope this patch can be adapted for freetype 2.1.10, but unfortunately it appears to be not so easy and I doubt that this problem can be fixed until the release of SuSE Linux 10.0. Because that patch is missing now, the rendering quality of the outlines of CJK fonts in small sizes became much worse than in SuSE Linux 9.3. Embedded bitmaps help to reduce the impact of this problem. -- Mike FABIAN http://www.suse.de/~mfabian 睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。

UTUMI Hirosi

15:35

New subject: embedded bitmaps (was: New uim.spec and some notes for Japanese)

Hi, --- Mike FABIAN wrote:

...

for another reason to stay with enabling the embedded bitmaps see

http://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=105626

Wavy rendering with freetype2.1.10 and IPA fonts

I know it. :-p Sometimes IPA font rendering is broken... Maybe 'fc-cache -f /usr/X11/lib/X11/fonts/truetype/' will solve it (?)

...

Until we updated to freetype 2.1.10 we used a patch from

http://www.kde.gr.jp/~akito/patch/freetype2/

to improve the rendering for CJK fonts.

I hope this patch can be adapted for freetype 2.1.10,

I don't think it will merged into freetype2. I had told it to Werner: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/freetype-devel/2004-09/msg00004.html Thanks. Hirosi __________________________________ Save the earth http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/ondanka/

Mike FABIAN

16:02

New subject: [m17n] Re: embedded bitmaps

UTUMI Hirosi さんは書きました:

...

Hi,

--- Mike FABIAN wrote:

...
for another reason to stay with enabling the embedded bitmaps see

http://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=105626

Wavy rendering with freetype2.1.10 and IPA fonts

I know it. :-p Sometimes IPA font rendering is broken... Maybe 'fc-cache -f /usr/X11/lib/X11/fonts/truetype/' will solve it (?)

No, this doesn't make a difference. With Akito San's patch the IPA fonts rendered very well.

...

...
Until we updated to freetype 2.1.10 we used a patch from

http://www.kde.gr.jp/~akito/patch/freetype2/

to improve the rendering for CJK fonts.

I hope this patch can be adapted for freetype 2.1.10,

I don't think it will merged into freetype2. I had told it to Werner: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/freetype-devel/2004-09/msg00004.html

This doesn't look like Werner is against including a patch like this. The patch apparently needs to be changed now, but improving the CJK rendering is still necessary. -- Mike FABIAN http://www.suse.de/~mfabian 睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。

Mike FABIAN

26 Aug 26 Aug

09:32

New subject: register uim modules (was: New uim.spec and some notes for Japanese)

UTUMI Hirosi さんは書きました:

...

See uim.spec and uim.spec.diff please. Changelog:

[...]

...

- run uim-module-manager to register uim modules.

[...] I fixed this for beta4, see https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=113081 Thank you very much for your patch! -- Mike FABIAN http://www.suse.de/~mfabian 睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。

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Mike FABIAN
Takashi Iwai
UTUMI Hirosi