[opensuse-kde] Evaluation of the KDE workspace to be used in the next openSUSE version

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Re: [opensuse-kde] Action plans...

Luca Beltrame

5 Mar 2015 5 Mar '15

20:23

Hello openSUSE KDE users and contributors, as you may know, the venerable and stable Plasma Workspace 4.x is nearing the end of its long-term support (LTS) period, with upstream committed to basically only fixing grave bugs and / or security issues. The openSUSE community KDE team has been following the development of the new desktop by KDE, Plasma 5 (backed by the KDE Frameworks 5 libraries), since its first 5.0 release, up to the point of running it ourselves. Our objective was to evaluate whether keeping the 4.x workspace as default desktop, or move towards adoption of 5.x. This mail outlines the result of our evaluation. ==== Comparisons at a glance ==== Note: we are talking about the workspace ("the desktop") here. Applications are handled separately. 1. Keeping the current Plasma Workspaces 4.x Pros: - Fairly stable technology - Good number of third-party widgets and extensions available (most also packaged) - Upstream committed to fixing grave bugs and security issues (i.e. it's not "abandonware") - Already integrated with openQA Cons: - Long-term support period ends during Summer 2015 - Upstream unable to handle any other bugs than showstoppers or security issues: this means that medium and low priority issues will not get attention except for special circumstances - Current upstream maintainers don't develop on 4.x anymore, meaning a large time frame for bug fixes - As the underlying libs (kdelibs4) are feature-frozen since years, fixing some bugs can be problematic 2. Going for Plasma 5 Pros: - Actively developed upstream (3 month release cycles) - Based on KDE Frameworks 5 (under active development as well) - Incorporates a large number of features and adjustments that fix long- standing issues (e.g., power management, notifications, rendering...) - Some solutions (e.g. "look and feel packages") make customization for openSUSE easier (less patching) - Easier to push openSUSE fixes upstream (they can get reviewed easier) - Development team with solid commitment - Developed with new technologies (Wayland) in mind (note that it is *NOT* possible to run it under Wayland yet, but work is pretty active in this area) - New visual look Cons: - New technology, not as tested - Qt5's QtQuick relies on openGL, exposing otherwise hidden rendering issues - Integration with openQA will likely need a lot of work - Less third-party widgets available (upstream dropped support for all but QML ones) - Some integration features (e.g. events within the calendar) are not available due to lack of ported libraries - Potential for some regressions - New visual look (some will love it, some will hate it) ==== Results of the evaluation ==== While Plasma 5.0 and 5.1 were not near the quality required for a default openSUSE desktop, 5.2 got very near said level, and we believe (running development code on our machines) that 5.3 will pass these requirements. Therefore our recommendation is to move towards Plasma 5 as the default openSUSE desktop, with version 5.3 or later (depending on the openSUSE schedule). Additional mails will be sent in the next days with the details of the transition plan. Luca Beltrame on behalf of the openSUSE community KDE team -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79

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Roman Bysh

5 Mar 5 Mar

22:59

New subject: [Bulk] [opensuse-kde] Evaluation of the KDE workspace to be used in the next openSUSE version

On 03/05/2015 03:23 PM, Luca Beltrame wrote:

...

Hello openSUSE KDE users and contributors,

as you may know, the venerable and stable Plasma Workspace 4.x is nearing the end of its long-term support (LTS) period, with upstream committed to basically only fixing grave bugs and / or security issues. The openSUSE community KDE team has been following the development of the new desktop by KDE, Plasma 5 (backed by the KDE Frameworks 5 libraries), since its first 5.0 release, up to the point of running it ourselves. Our objective was to evaluate whether keeping the 4.x workspace as default desktop, or move towards adoption of 5.x.

This mail outlines the result of our evaluation.

==== Comparisons at a glance ====

Note: we are talking about the workspace ("the desktop") here. Applications are handled separately.

1. Keeping the current Plasma Workspaces 4.x

Pros:

- Fairly stable technology - Good number of third-party widgets and extensions available (most also packaged) - Upstream committed to fixing grave bugs and security issues (i.e. it's not "abandonware") - Already integrated with openQA

Cons:

- Long-term support period ends during Summer 2015 - Upstream unable to handle any other bugs than showstoppers or security issues: this means that medium and low priority issues will not get attention except for special circumstances - Current upstream maintainers don't develop on 4.x anymore, meaning a large time frame for bug fixes - As the underlying libs (kdelibs4) are feature-frozen since years, fixing some bugs can be problematic

2. Going for Plasma 5

Pros:

- Actively developed upstream (3 month release cycles) - Based on KDE Frameworks 5 (under active development as well) - Incorporates a large number of features and adjustments that fix long- standing issues (e.g., power management, notifications, rendering...) - Some solutions (e.g. "look and feel packages") make customization for openSUSE easier (less patching) - Easier to push openSUSE fixes upstream (they can get reviewed easier) - Development team with solid commitment - Developed with new technologies (Wayland) in mind (note that it is *NOT* possible to run it under Wayland yet, but work is pretty active in this area) - New visual look

Cons:

- New technology, not as tested - Qt5's QtQuick relies on openGL, exposing otherwise hidden rendering issues - Integration with openQA will likely need a lot of work - Less third-party widgets available (upstream dropped support for all but QML ones) - Some integration features (e.g. events within the calendar) are not available due to lack of ported libraries - Potential for some regressions - New visual look (some will love it, some will hate it)

==== Results of the evaluation ====

While Plasma 5.0 and 5.1 were not near the quality required for a default openSUSE desktop, 5.2 got very near said level, and we believe (running development code on our machines) that 5.3 will pass these requirements. Therefore our recommendation is to move towards Plasma 5 as the default openSUSE desktop, with version 5.3 or later (depending on the openSUSE schedule).

Additional mails will be sent in the next days with the details of the transition plan.

Luca Beltrame on behalf of the openSUSE community KDE team

Luca, Will there be a tweak tool to change from the flat look to an alternate look? Cheers! Roman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Luca Beltrame

23:34

New subject: [Bulk] [opensuse-kde] Evaluation of the KDE workspace to be used in the next openSUSE version

In data giovedì 05 marzo 2015 17:59:30, Roman Bysh ha scritto:

...

Will there be a tweak tool to change from the flat look to an alternate look?

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "flat look" and "alternate look"? -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Roman Bysh

6 Mar 6 Mar

00:19

New subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [opensuse-kde] Evaluation of the KDE workspace to be used in the next openSUSE version

On 03/05/2015 06:34 PM, Luca Beltrame wrote:

...

In data giovedì 05 marzo 2015 17:59:30, Roman Bysh ha scritto:

...
Will there be a tweak tool to change from the flat look to an alternate look?

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "flat look" and "alternate look"?

Rather than flat we could switch to a KDE4 type look. Roman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Luca Beltrame

06:22

New subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [opensuse-kde] Evaluation of the KDE workspace to be used in the next openSUSE version

In data giovedì 05 marzo 2015 19:19:28, Roman Bysh ha scritto:

...

Rather than flat we could switch to a KDE4 type look.

That's more of a branding decision and does not impact the current evaluation, IMO (I prefer the current look, FWIW). -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79

Azael Avalos

03:32

Hi there, 2015-03-05 13:23 GMT-07:00 Luca Beltrame :

...

Hello openSUSE KDE users and contributors,

as you may know, the venerable and stable Plasma Workspace 4.x is nearing the end of its long-term support (LTS) period, with upstream committed to basically only fixing grave bugs and / or security issues. The openSUSE community KDE team has been following the development of the new desktop by KDE, Plasma 5 (backed by the KDE Frameworks 5 libraries), since its first 5.0 release, up to the point of running it ourselves. Our objective was to evaluate whether keeping the 4.x workspace as default desktop, or move towards adoption of 5.x.

This mail outlines the result of our evaluation.

==== Comparisons at a glance ====

Note: we are talking about the workspace ("the desktop") here. Applications are handled separately.

1. Keeping the current Plasma Workspaces 4.x

Pros:

- Fairly stable technology - Good number of third-party widgets and extensions available (most also packaged) - Upstream committed to fixing grave bugs and security issues (i.e. it's not "abandonware") - Already integrated with openQA

Cons:

- Long-term support period ends during Summer 2015 - Upstream unable to handle any other bugs than showstoppers or security issues: this means that medium and low priority issues will not get attention except for special circumstances - Current upstream maintainers don't develop on 4.x anymore, meaning a large time frame for bug fixes - As the underlying libs (kdelibs4) are feature-frozen since years, fixing some bugs can be problematic

2. Going for Plasma 5

Pros:

- Actively developed upstream (3 month release cycles) - Based on KDE Frameworks 5 (under active development as well) - Incorporates a large number of features and adjustments that fix long- standing issues (e.g., power management, notifications, rendering...) - Some solutions (e.g. "look and feel packages") make customization for openSUSE easier (less patching) - Easier to push openSUSE fixes upstream (they can get reviewed easier) - Development team with solid commitment - Developed with new technologies (Wayland) in mind (note that it is *NOT* possible to run it under Wayland yet, but work is pretty active in this area) - New visual look

Cons:

- New technology, not as tested - Qt5's QtQuick relies on openGL, exposing otherwise hidden rendering issues - Integration with openQA will likely need a lot of work - Less third-party widgets available (upstream dropped support for all but QML ones) - Some integration features (e.g. events within the calendar) are not available due to lack of ported libraries - Potential for some regressions - New visual look (some will love it, some will hate it)

==== Results of the evaluation ====

While Plasma 5.0 and 5.1 were not near the quality required for a default openSUSE desktop, 5.2 got very near said level, and we believe (running development code on our machines) that 5.3 will pass these requirements. Therefore our recommendation is to move towards Plasma 5 as the default openSUSE desktop, with version 5.3 or later (depending on the openSUSE schedule).

Additional mails will be sent in the next days with the details of the transition plan.

Luca Beltrame on behalf of the openSUSE community KDE team

-- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79

Sounds good, I've been using Plasma 5 for a few weeks now on my development laptop and I'm very pleased, just a couple annoyances: - Plasma shell crashing (who knows why...) - Bluedevil not turning Bluetooth on by default (I use a BT mouse) But overall a very good experience, I've been a SuSE (then SUSE, then openSUSE) user since 6.4 days and a KDE user since then, so I've been on all mayor KDE versions 'till now ;-) I'm sure the KDE team will nail those (or at least the shell) issues by 5.3, so keep the packages updated and I will keep testing. Cheers Azael -- -- El mundo apesta y vosotros apestais tambien -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Luca Beltrame

06:24

In data giovedì 05 marzo 2015 20:32:24, Azael Avalos ha scritto: Hello, (no need to CC me: I'm subscribed)

...

- Plasma shell crashing (who knows why...)

Please report crashes upstream. It's the best way to have them fixed.

...

- Bluedevil not turning Bluetooth on by default (I use a BT mouse)

Notice that there isn't a KF5 version of bluedevil yet (I mean in the sense of release - a port is in progress) . Are you using it from KUF? -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79

šumski

16:47

On Friday 06 of March 2015 07:24:24 Luca Beltrame wrote:

...

In data giovedì 05 marzo 2015 20:32:24, Azael Avalos ha scritto:

Hello,

(no need to CC me: I'm subscribed)

...
- Plasma shell crashing (who knows why...)

Please report crashes upstream. It's the best way to have them fixed.

...
- Bluedevil not turning Bluetooth on by default (I use a BT mouse)

Notice that there isn't a KF5 version of bluedevil yet (I mean in the sense of release - a port is in progress) . Are you using it from KUF?

There is indeed a release of Bluedevil together with Plasma 5.2, however, it is a bit behind latest fixes for kde4, hence this issue is still unresolved with Plasma 5 variant. I'll see how difficult it would be to backport those fixes... Cheers, Hrvoje

Mathias Homann

08:18

Am Donnerstag 05 März 2015, 21:23:56 schrieb Luca Beltrame:

...

==== Comparisons at a glance ====

[...]

...

2. Going for Plasma 5

[...]

...

Cons: - Some integration features (e.g. events within the calendar) are not available due to lack of ported libraries

...please correct me if I misunderstood... are you really saying that in plasma 5 one can not actually put events into ones calendar? ...can you say showstopper? Cheers MH -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Luca Beltrame

09:22

In data venerdì 6 marzo 2015 09:18:48, Mathias Homann ha scritto:

...

...please correct me if I misunderstood... are you really saying that in plasma 5 one can not actually put events into ones calendar?

It's not possible because the libraries needed (KDE PIM) are under porting and extreme changes.

...

...can you say showstopper?

The Plasma team upstream is aware of the issue, and is considering stop-gap solutions. Whether this is a show stopper or not will be determined by the migration plan which will be posted in the next few days, which involves a lot of input from the openSUSE community. -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79

Vojtěch Zeisek

09:30

Dne Pá 6. března 2015 10:22:51, Luca Beltrame napsal(a):

...

In data venerdì 6 marzo 2015 09:18:48, Mathias Homann ha scritto:

...
...please correct me if I misunderstood... are you really saying that in plasma 5 one can not actually put events into ones calendar?

It's not possible because the libraries needed (KDE PIM) are under porting and extreme changes.

...
...can you say showstopper?

The Plasma team upstream is aware of the issue, and is considering stop-gap solutions. Whether this is a show stopper or not will be determined by the migration plan which will be posted in the next few days, which involves a lot of input from the openSUSE community.

I'd definitely consider this issue as showstopper. If it is possible to use KDE4 PIM with Plasma 5, then OK. Otherwise not. Sincerely, Vojtěch -- Vojtěch Zeisek Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux http://www.opensuse.org/ http://trapa.cz/

Luca Beltrame

09:37

In data venerdì 6 marzo 2015 10:30:31, Vojtěch Zeisek ha scritto:

...

I'd definitely consider this issue as showstopper. If it is possible to use KDE4 PIM with Plasma 5, then OK. Otherwise not.

You can use PIM 4.x with Plasma 5 (this mail was written in Kmail 4.14 wiith Plasma 5). The issue is that the *Plasma calendar* will not show events. Everything else will work. Sorry for the confusion! -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79

Vojtěch Zeisek

09:43

Dne Pá 6. března 2015 10:37:06, Luca Beltrame napsal(a):

...

In data venerdì 6 marzo 2015 10:30:31, Vojtěch Zeisek ha scritto:

...
I'd definitely consider this issue as showstopper. If it is possible to use KDE4 PIM with Plasma 5, then OK. Otherwise not.

You can use PIM 4.x with Plasma 5 (this mail was written in Kmail 4.14 wiith Plasma 5). The issue is that the *Plasma calendar* will not show events. Everything else will work.

Sorry for the confusion!

Sorry for misunderstanding. If this is only the widget, then no problem (just remove it not to be confusing). Sincerely, Vojtěch -- Vojtěch Zeisek Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux http://www.opensuse.org/ http://trapa.cz/

Mathias Homann

09:50

Am Freitag 06 März 2015, 10:37:06 schrieb Luca Beltrame:

...

In data venerdì 6 marzo 2015 10:30:31, Vojtěch Zeisek ha scritto:

...
I'd definitely consider this issue as showstopper. If it is possible to use KDE4 PIM with Plasma 5, then OK. Otherwise not.

You can use PIM 4.x with Plasma 5 (this mail was written in Kmail 4.14 wiith Plasma 5). The issue is that the *Plasma calendar* will not show events. Everything else will work.

oh you mean there's a *desktop calendar widget* that does not work... that'll be fine with me, don't use those. Desktop widgets are pretty pointless seeing how they are usually hidden behind application windows... Cheers MH -- gpg key fingerprint: 5F64 4C92 9B77 DE37 D184 C5F9 B013 44E7 27BD 763C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Alin Marin Elena

09:31

Hi All, I have been using kf5 only desktop daily for quite some time now (summer time). The experience overall was positive. Inevitabily due to lack of ported or freshly ported apps to kf5, we will have the situation where people will want to run kde4 apps. I do not know how well supported tested that is with plasma5. Two issues that I have seen from my usage. 1. sometimes due to bugs in newly ported applications plasma crashes. This may give a bad name and put users away. (ktp plasmoid was the most common offender) 2. the new kwin and opengl on some IvyBridge intel cards (Sandy Bridge too) does not play very nice. There are bugs reported against mesa but very little has been done. none of the issues are direct related to plasma 5 but for sure they may impact the user experience. regards, Alin Without Questions there are no Answers! ______________________________________________________________________ Dr. Alin Marin ELENA http://alin.elenaworld.net/ ______________________________________________________________________ On 6 March 2015 at 09:22, Luca Beltrame wrote:

...

In data venerdì 6 marzo 2015 09:18:48, Mathias Homann ha scritto:

...
...please correct me if I misunderstood... are you really saying that in plasma 5 one can not actually put events into ones calendar?

It's not possible because the libraries needed (KDE PIM) are under porting and extreme changes.

...
...can you say showstopper?

The Plasma team upstream is aware of the issue, and is considering stop-gap solutions. Whether this is a show stopper or not will be determined by the migration plan which will be posted in the next few days, which involves a lot of input from the openSUSE community.

-- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Freek de Kruijf

10:50

Op vrijdag 6 maart 2015 09:31:27 schreef Alin Marin Elena:

...

2. the new kwin and opengl on some IvyBridge intel cards (Sandy Bridge too) does not play very nice. There are bugs reported against mesa but very little has been done.

none of the issues are direct related to plasma 5 but for sure they may impact the user experience.

I can second that. On my laptop from Oct 2014 with Intel Graphics HD with Tumbleweed and KF5 after a recent update I have black bars which grow and diminish when moving the mouse pointer. Kicker is not showing all its icons. No problem with KDE4 on the same system with regular 13.2. I have to use nomodeset on boot to get KDE running, but that has nothing to do with KF5. -- fr.gr. Freek de Kruijf -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

yahoo-pier_andreit

15:22

On 03/05/2015 09:23 PM, Luca Beltrame wrote:

...

Hello openSUSE KDE users and contributors,

as you may know, the venerable and stable Plasma Workspace 4.x is nearing the end of its long-term support (LTS) period, with upstream committed to basically only fixing grave bugs and / or security issues. The openSUSE community KDE team has been following the development of the new desktop by KDE, Plasma 5 (backed by the KDE Frameworks 5 libraries), since its first 5.0 release, up to the point of running it ourselves. Our objective was to evaluate whether keeping the 4.x workspace as default desktop, or move towards adoption of 5.x.

This mail outlines the result of our evaluation.

==== Comparisons at a glance ====

Note: we are talking about the workspace ("the desktop") here. Applications are handled separately.

1. Keeping the current Plasma Workspaces 4.x

Pros:

- Fairly stable technology - Good number of third-party widgets and extensions available (most also packaged) - Upstream committed to fixing grave bugs and security issues (i.e. it's not "abandonware") - Already integrated with openQA

Cons:

- Long-term support period ends during Summer 2015 - Upstream unable to handle any other bugs than showstoppers or security issues: this means that medium and low priority issues will not get attention except for special circumstances - Current upstream maintainers don't develop on 4.x anymore, meaning a large time frame for bug fixes - As the underlying libs (kdelibs4) are feature-frozen since years, fixing some bugs can be problematic

2. Going for Plasma 5

Pros:

- Actively developed upstream (3 month release cycles) - Based on KDE Frameworks 5 (under active development as well) - Incorporates a large number of features and adjustments that fix long- standing issues (e.g., power management, notifications, rendering...) - Some solutions (e.g. "look and feel packages") make customization for openSUSE easier (less patching) - Easier to push openSUSE fixes upstream (they can get reviewed easier) - Development team with solid commitment - Developed with new technologies (Wayland) in mind (note that it is *NOT* possible to run it under Wayland yet, but work is pretty active in this area) - New visual look

Cons:

- New technology, not as tested - Qt5's QtQuick relies on openGL, exposing otherwise hidden rendering issues - Integration with openQA will likely need a lot of work - Less third-party widgets available (upstream dropped support for all but QML ones) - Some integration features (e.g. events within the calendar) are not available due to lack of ported libraries - Potential for some regressions - New visual look (some will love it, some will hate it)

==== Results of the evaluation ====

While Plasma 5.0 and 5.1 were not near the quality required for a default openSUSE desktop, 5.2 got very near said level, and we believe (running development code on our machines) that 5.3 will pass these requirements. Therefore our recommendation is to move towards Plasma 5 as the default openSUSE desktop, with version 5.3 or later (depending on the openSUSE schedule).

Additional mails will be sent in the next days with the details of the transition plan.

Luca Beltrame on behalf of the openSUSE community KDE team

....my worry is on crashes, is it possible to install kde4 and plasma 5 in the same machine and choose one of them at login?? ....when I will upgrade from my opensuse 13.2 to the next opensuse 13.3 or 14, where my kde4 will go??? P.S. sorry Luca for the message ti you, the ctrl>shift>L instead of ctrl>R issue in thunderbird hit me again...:-) :-) :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Raymond Wooninck

16:40

On Friday, March 06, 2015 04:22:57 PM yahoo-pier_andreit wrote:

...

....my worry is on crashes, is it possible to install kde4 and plasma 5 in the same machine and choose one of them at login?? ....when I will upgrade from my opensuse 13.2 to the next opensuse 13.3 or 14, where my kde4 will go???

Some parts of KDE4 and Plasma5/Frameworks5 are coinstallable, however certain parts can not. Upstream a lot of efforts have been made to have parts of KDE4 co-exists along Plasma5/Frameworks5. This allows us to run KDE4 based applications on a Plasma5 Desktop. This means that if the decision is taken to switch the default from KDE4 to Plasma5, then parts of KDE4 will be removed that conflicts with Plasma5/ Frameworks. The same would happen to those applications that are already Frameworks based (e.g. Kate). The next openSUSE version after this switch will automatically upgrade users from KDE4 to a Plasma5/Frameworks based desktop. The reason why we are doing this evaluation is to find out what the experiences are of those users that are running Plasma5/Frameworks. Given that we already had 7 releases for the Framework libraries and that the third Plasma5 release is upcoming, I do not believe that crashes would be a concern. I have been running this setup since the beginning and Plasma5 has been a very smooth experience. Regards Raymond -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

yahoo-pier_andreit

18:37

On 03/06/2015 05:40 PM, Raymond Wooninck wrote:

...

On Friday, March 06, 2015 04:22:57 PM yahoo-pier_andreit wrote:

...
....my worry is on crashes, is it possible to install kde4 and plasma 5 in the same machine and choose one of them at login?? ....when I will upgrade from my opensuse 13.2 to the next opensuse 13.3 or 14, where my kde4 will go???

Some parts of KDE4 and Plasma5/Frameworks5 are coinstallable, however certain parts can not. Upstream a lot of efforts have been made to have parts of KDE4 co-exists along Plasma5/Frameworks5. This allows us to run KDE4 based applications on a Plasma5 Desktop.

This means that if the decision is taken to switch the default from KDE4 to Plasma5, then parts of KDE4 will be removed that conflicts with Plasma5/ Frameworks. The same would happen to those applications that are already Frameworks based (e.g. Kate).

so, if, and only if :-) , I will have problem, I will be able to run KDE4 but I will have to uninstall plasma5?? I hope via yast..:-)

...

The next openSUSE version after this switch will automatically upgrade users from KDE4 to a Plasma5/Frameworks based desktop.

The reason why we are doing this evaluation is to find out what the experiences are of those users that are running Plasma5/Frameworks. Given that we already had 7 releases for the Framework libraries and that the third Plasma5 release is upcoming, I do not believe that crashes would be a concern. I have been running this setup since the beginning and Plasma5 has been a very smooth experience.

:-) happy to read this :-) :-) crashes in the desktop for me that I am so poorly skilled in console, and gnome doesn't like at all are terrible.. ...some lack of some feature of KDE application I think I can survive to...:-) ...but, also firefox and thunderbird and libreoffice and other external software are affected to not work on plasma5 or only KDE applications??

...

Regards

Raymond

:-) ciao, :-) pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Raymond Wooninck

19:47

On Friday, March 06, 2015 07:37:27 PM yahoo-pier_andreit wrote:

...

so, if, and only if :-) , I will have problem, I will be able to run KDE4 but I will have to uninstall plasma5?? I hope via yast..:-)

Well, certain packages of KDE4 would be no longer offered as that they would have been replaced by part of Plasma5/Frameworks 5. At this moment we are not planning to provide a fully functional KDE4 desktop besides the Plasma5 one. That is why we are careful with switching the default. But once we switch it is switched.

...

...some lack of some feature of KDE application I think I can survive to...:-)

All KDE applications can work under Plasma 5, there are no issues regarding compatibility, etc. This was especially done so that the Application maintainers would have time to properly migrate their applications.

...

...but, also firefox and thunderbird and libreoffice and other external software are affected to not work on plasma5 or only KDE applications??

How do you mean this ?? Firefox, Thunderbird and LibreOffice are fully functional, whether you run them on a KDE4 desktop or on Plasma5. There is no difference. Regards Raymond -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

johnm

21:41

On 03/06/2015 07:40 AM, Raymond Wooninck wrote:

...

On Friday, March 06, 2015 04:22:57 PM yahoo-pier_andreit wrote:

...
....my worry is on crashes, is it possible to install kde4 and plasma 5 in the same machine and choose one of them at login?? ....when I will upgrade from my opensuse 13.2 to the next opensuse 13.3 or 14, where my kde4 will go???

Some parts of KDE4 and Plasma5/Frameworks5 are coinstallable, however certain parts can not. Upstream a lot of efforts have been made to have parts of KDE4 co-exists along Plasma5/Frameworks5. This allows us to run KDE4 based applications on a Plasma5 Desktop.

This means that if the decision is taken to switch the default from KDE4 to Plasma5, then parts of KDE4 will be removed that conflicts with Plasma5/ Frameworks. The same would happen to those applications that are already Frameworks based (e.g. Kate).

The next openSUSE version after this switch will automatically upgrade users from KDE4 to a Plasma5/Frameworks based desktop.

The reason why we are doing this evaluation is to find out what the experiences are of those users that are running Plasma5/Frameworks. Given that we already had 7 releases for the Framework libraries and that the third Plasma5 release is upcoming, I do not believe that crashes would be a concern. I have been running this setup since the beginning and Plasma5 has been a very smooth experience.

Regards

Raymond

I'm really liking Plasma5, mostly for the visuals, new decorations like breeze, icons, etc. I hope session management is fixed soon though (https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=341930). I login and windows are all over the place, not where I left them. -johnm -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Yamaban

22:14

New subject: [opensuse-kde] Re: Evaluation of the KDE workspace to be used in the next openSUSE version

On Thu, 5 Mar 2015 21:23, Luca Beltrame wrote:

...

Hello openSUSE KDE users and contributors,

as you may know, the venerable and stable Plasma Workspace 4.x is nearing the end of its long-term support (LTS) period, with upstream committed to basically only fixing grave bugs and / or security issues. The openSUSE community KDE team has been following the development of the new desktop by KDE, Plasma 5 (backed by the KDE Frameworks 5 libraries), since its first 5.0 release, up to the point of running it ourselves. Our objective was to evaluate whether keeping the 4.x workspace as default desktop, or move towards adoption of 5.x.

This mail outlines the result of our evaluation.

==== Comparisons at a glance ====

Note: we are talking about the workspace ("the desktop") here. Applications are handled separately.

1. Keeping the current Plasma Workspaces 4.x

Pros: ... Cons: ...

2. Going for Plasma 5

Pros: ... Cons:

My personal impression: After a rough test of what is available atm (5.2.1), I'd say the next release (5.3) will be better than KDE4 at its forced intro in openSUSE. So, the "outcry" in moving from 4.x to 5.3 or later should be less than the howl of rage we got during the change from KDE3 to KDE4. What I'd like to see is a minimalized bundle of libs for both, 4.x and 5.x as base, that are side-by-side install-able. Think of running XFCE as DE but using Okular for the PDF needs. How may by the application unneeded "crud" will be installed, with "unselected" recommends, just the required minimum? The smaller this "minimum" base set of libs will be, the grester the acceptance of using KDE apps even outside of Plasma as DE. At the same time, it will become easier to bootstrap building KDE/Plasma. For the next openSUE release my vision would be Plasma 5 as DE, with the option of a "KDE4"-Design/Style, and the possibility to use KDE4 apps parallel to having Plasma 5 as full DE. The most visible niggles will come from the PIM stuff, esp. PIM / Calendar, PIM / Addressbook, and lets NOT repeat the Kmail desaster (Kmail1 to Kmail2), ne? There is still stuff that was easy to accomplish in KDE3 that was/is difficult if possible at all in KDE4, and I'm NOT sold on the "openGL for all" stuff (I'm unsure on who dropped the ball here, Intel via kernel, Intel via Mesa, or KDE) And, looking at the memory and cpu/gpu consumption, I'm near the point that I would delcare Plasma 5 as Heavy-weight with clear tendency to obese. Maybe we should communicate the the Hardware needs clearly. Dual-Core or better at 2.4 GHz or more, with 4 GB Ram or more. Made in 2012 or newer, for having fun. (Win 8 cert. HW) - Yamaban. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Luca Beltrame

22:22

New subject: [opensuse-kde] Re: Evaluation of the KDE workspace to be used in the next openSUSE version

In data venerdì 06 marzo 2015 23:14:11, Yamaban ha scritto:

...

After a rough test of what is available atm (5.2.1), I'd say the next release (5.3) will be better than KDE4 at its forced intro in openSUSE.

That's the thought of the team too, hence this mail (and the plan, which will follow soon... I'm just too tired for it today ;)

...

What I'd like to see is a minimalized bundle of libs for both, 4.x and 5.x as base, that are side-by-side install-able.

Some work has already been done where possible, see the workspace 4.x libs that have been split to ensure better coinstallability.

...

How may by the application unneeded "crud" will be installed, with "unselected" recommends, just the required minimum?

This will take time as more apps get ported to KF5 and thus only use the right dependencies (as they're far more fine-grained than in the kdelibs 4.x days).

...

use KDE4 apps parallel to having Plasma 5 as full DE.

This has always been possible and it's actually encouraged upstream.

...

PIM / Calendar, PIM / Addressbook, and lets NOT repeat the Kmail desaster (Kmail1 to Kmail2), ne?

Currently no PIM release is expected in KF5 form until 2016.

...

on the "openGL for all" stuff (I'm unsure on who dropped the ball here, Intel via kernel, Intel via Mesa, or KDE)

OpenGL is used by QtQuick first and foremost, so the requirement comes from Qt.

...

Dual-Core or better at 2.4 GHz or more, with 4 GB Ram or more. Made in 2012 or newer, for having fun. (Win 8 cert. HW)

Mostly it's OpenGL, as I said. It exposes a lot of driver bugs. -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79

Vojtěch Zeisek

9 Mar 9 Mar

19:30

New subject: [opensuse-kde] Re: Evaluation of the KDE workspace to be used in the next openSUSE version

Dne Pá 6. března 2015 23:22:36, Luca Beltrame napsal(a):

...

In data venerdì 06 marzo 2015 23:14:11, Yamaban ha scritto:

...
PIM / Calendar, PIM / Addressbook, and lets NOT repeat the Kmail desaster (Kmail1 to Kmail2), ne?

Currently no PIM release is expected in KF5 form until 2016.

Sorry, I didn't find it (might be my mistake), is there some rough release plane available to look? I also wonder about porting Akregator to Akonadi. Sincerely, Vojtěch -- Vojtěch Zeisek Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux http://www.opensuse.org/ http://trapa.cz/

Luca Beltrame

19:40

New subject: [opensuse-kde] Re: Evaluation of the KDE workspace to be used in the next openSUSE version

In data lunedì 09 marzo 2015 20:30:16, Vojtěch Zeisek ha scritto:

...

plane available to look? I also wonder about porting Akregator to Akonadi.

So far only ML messages done as minutes during developer meetings. No official roadmap has been out yet. -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79

Roman Bysh

19:25

New subject: [Bulk] [opensuse-kde] Re: Evaluation of the KDE workspace to be used in the next openSUSE version

On 03/06/2015 05:14 PM, Yamaban wrote:

...

On Thu, 5 Mar 2015 21:23, Luca Beltrame wrote:

...
Hello openSUSE KDE users and contributors,

as you may know, the venerable and stable Plasma Workspace 4.x is nearing the end of its long-term support (LTS) period, with upstream committed to basically only fixing grave bugs and / or security issues. The openSUSE community KDE team has been following the development of the new desktop by KDE, Plasma 5 (backed by the KDE Frameworks 5 libraries), since its first 5.0 release, up to the point of running it ourselves. Our objective was to evaluate whether keeping the 4.x workspace as default desktop, or move towards adoption of 5.x.

This mail outlines the result of our evaluation.

==== Comparisons at a glance ====

Note: we are talking about the workspace ("the desktop") here. Applications are handled separately.

1. Keeping the current Plasma Workspaces 4.x

Pros: ... Cons: ...

2. Going for Plasma 5

Pros: ... Cons:

My personal impression:

After a rough test of what is available atm (5.2.1), I'd say the next release (5.3) will be better than KDE4 at its forced intro in openSUSE.

Looking forward to 5.3 and higher.

...

So, the "outcry" in moving from 4.x to 5.3 or later should be less than the howl of rage we got during the change from KDE3 to KDE4.

...

For the next openSUSE release my vision would be Plasma 5 as DE, with the option of a "KDE4"-Design/Style, and the possibility to use KDE4 apps parallel to having Plasma 5 as full DE.

This is what I am hoping to have as an option. I use qtcurve to modify the appearance of my desktop.

...

Maybe we should communicate the the Hardware needs clearly. Dual-Core or better at 2.4 GHz or more, with 4 GB Ram or more. Made in 2012 or newer, for having fun. (Win 8 cert. HW)

- Yamaban.

My system is from 2007 using a Q6600 Quad-Core on an Asus mobo. -- Cheers! Roman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Yamaban

21:00

New subject: [opensuse-kde] Re: Re: Evaluation of the KDE workspace to be used in the next openSUSE version

On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 20:25, Roman Bysh wrote:

...

On 03/06/2015 05:14 PM, Yamaban wrote:

...
On Thu, 5 Mar 2015 21:23, Luca Beltrame wrote: [snip]

Maybe we should communicate the the Hardware needs clearly. Dual-Core or better at 2.4 GHz or more, with 4 GB Ram or more. Made in 2012 or newer, for having fun. (Win 8 cert. HW)

- Yamaban.

My system is from 2007 using a Q6600 Quad-Core on an Asus mobo.

Q6600 is nominal at 2.4 GHz, isn't it?, So just not so much fun with UEFI, and USB3? Win 8 certification gives you a "working"/useable UEFI and working USB3 (if from Processor Chipset, addon-chips of the early gen are iffy) for Win 7 the UEFI specs where only partially defined, and it shows. GPT for boot is a case of coin-trow (works/or not), and the early onboard USB3 addon chips where not full up to spec, and not all of them are supported by the linux kernel. And, on RAM, tell me, how much fun is KF5 /Plasma on 2GB RAM with a HDD (Rotating Rust)? -- Not much, I'll tell you. So, "having fun" out of the box is much easier with win8 cert on the hardware. For (new, 2012 or later) Desktops, Win 8 cert minimums where: min Dualcore, @ min 2.0 GHz max, min 4GB Ram possible, UEFI (> 2.3.1 full spec), min 1x Sata Rev3 (6Gb), BootfromUSB see for yourself: http://download.microsoft.com/download/A/D/F/ADF5BEDE-C0FB-4CC0-A3E1-B38093F... some other docs: https://msdn.microsoft.com/library/windows/hardware/hh748188 Those are the specs for enjoyment, not the bare minimum reqirements, the "frust-stopper", below you will have to cut back your expections. XFCE / LXDE / WindowMaker are much less intensive on the Hardware, but even for XFCE I'd say 2GB Ram is minium, 4GB is more fun. - Yamaban -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Roman Bysh

21:37

New subject: [Bulk] [opensuse-kde] Re: Re: Evaluation of the KDE workspace to be used in the next openSUSE version

On 03/09/2015 05:00 PM, Yamaban wrote:

...

On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 20:25, Roman Bysh wrote:

...
On 03/06/2015 05:14 PM, Yamaban wrote:

...
On Thu, 5 Mar 2015 21:23, Luca Beltrame wrote: [snip]

Maybe we should communicate the the Hardware needs clearly. Dual-Core or better at 2.4 GHz or more, with 4 GB Ram or more. Made in 2012 or newer, for having fun. (Win 8 cert. HW)

- Yamaban.

My system is from 2007 using a Q6600 Quad-Core on an Asus mobo.

Q6600 is nominal at 2.4 GHz, isn't it?, So just not so much fun with UEFI, and USB3?

Win 8 certification gives you a "working"/useable UEFI and working USB3 (if from Processor Chipset, addon-chips of the early gen are iffy)

for Win 7 the UEFI specs where only partially defined, and it shows. GPT for boot is a case of coin-trow (works/or not), and the early onboard USB3 addon chips where not full up to spec, and not all of them are supported by the linux kernel.

And, on RAM, tell me, how much fun is KF5 /Plasma on 2GB RAM with a HDD (Rotating Rust)? -- Not much, I'll tell you.

So, "having fun" out of the box is much easier with win8 cert on the hardware.

For (new, 2012 or later) Desktops, Win 8 cert minimums where: min Dualcore, @ min 2.0 GHz max, min 4GB Ram possible, UEFI (> 2.3.1 full spec), min 1x Sata Rev3 (6Gb), BootfromUSB

see for yourself: http://download.microsoft.com/download/A/D/F/ADF5BEDE-C0FB-4CC0-A3E1-B38093F...

some other docs: https://msdn.microsoft.com/library/windows/hardware/hh748188

Those are the specs for enjoyment, not the bare minimum reqirements, the "frust-stopper", below you will have to cut back your expections.

XFCE / LXDE / WindowMaker are much less intensive on the Hardware, but even for XFCE I'd say 2GB Ram is minium, 4GB is more fun.

- Yamaban Yep. It's time to upgrade. This an 8 year old system.

I was thinking about waiting for Skylake to come out. The only problem is that users will not be able to run Windows 7 with that chipset. Or maybe just get a Haswell with an Asus board. -- Cheers! Roman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Yamaban

22:11

New subject: [opensuse-kde] Re: Re: Evaluation of the KDE workspace to be used in the next openSUSE version

On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 22:37, Roman Bysh wrote:

...

On 03/09/2015 05:00 PM, Yamaban wrote:

...
...
On 03/06/2015 05:14 PM, Yamaban wrote:

...
On Thu, 5 Mar 2015 21:23, Luca Beltrame wrote: [snip] So, "having fun" out of the box is much easier with win8 cert on

On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 20:25, Roman Bysh wrote: the hardware.

For (new, 2012 or later) Desktops, Win 8 cert minimums where: min Dualcore, @ min 2.0 GHz max, min 4GB Ram possible, UEFI (> 2.3.1 full spec), min 1x Sata Rev3 (6Gb), BootfromUSB

see for yourself: http://download.microsoft.com/download/A/D/F/ADF5BEDE-C0FB-4CC0-A3E1-B38093F...

some other docs: https://msdn.microsoft.com/library/windows/hardware/hh748188

Those are the specs for enjoyment, not the bare minimum reqirements, the "frust-stopper", below you will have to cut back your expections.

XFCE / LXDE / WindowMaker are much less intensive on the Hardware, but even for XFCE I'd say 2GB Ram is minium, 4GB is more fun.

- Yamaban Yep. It's time to upgrade. This an 8 year old system.

I was thinking about waiting for Skylake to come out. The only problem is that users will not be able to run Windows 7 with that chipset.

Or maybe just get a Haswell with an Asus board.

If you have the time, wait for a Win 10 cert. mobo with Skylake, and go for 64bit OS / 8GB Ram or more / SSD, that should last some years. Win 7 works fine in a VM if absolutly needed, most apps I've tested so far work just as good or better on Win 10 preview. If the comp is still good for daily work, it will last a little longer, maybe until the Black Friday offerings are reached, ne? - Yamaban. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Roman Bysh

22:40

New subject: [Bulk] [opensuse-kde] Re: Re: Evaluation of the KDE workspace to be used in the next openSUSE version

On 03/09/2015 06:11 PM, Yamaban wrote:

...

On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 22:37, Roman Bysh wrote:

...
On 03/09/2015 05:00 PM, Yamaban wrote:

...
...
On 03/06/2015 05:14 PM, Yamaban wrote:

...
On Thu, 5 Mar 2015 21:23, Luca Beltrame wrote: [snip] So, "having fun" out of the box is much easier with win8 cert on

On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 20:25, Roman Bysh wrote: the hardware.

For (new, 2012 or later) Desktops, Win 8 cert minimums where: min Dualcore, @ min 2.0 GHz max, min 4GB Ram possible, UEFI (> 2.3.1 full spec), min 1x Sata Rev3 (6Gb), BootfromUSB

see for yourself: http://download.microsoft.com/download/A/D/F/ADF5BEDE-C0FB-4CC0-A3E1-B38093F...

some other docs: https://msdn.microsoft.com/library/windows/hardware/hh748188

Those are the specs for enjoyment, not the bare minimum reqirements, the "frust-stopper", below you will have to cut back your expections.

XFCE / LXDE / WindowMaker are much less intensive on the Hardware, but even for XFCE I'd say 2GB Ram is minium, 4GB is more fun.

- Yamaban Yep. It's time to upgrade. This an 8 year old system.

I was thinking about waiting for Skylake to come out. The only problem is that users will not be able to run Windows 7 with that chipset.

Or maybe just get a Haswell with an Asus board.

If you have the time, wait for a Win 10 cert. mobo with Skylake, and go for 64bit OS / 8GB Ram or more / SSD, that should last some years.

Win 7 works fine in a VM if absolutly needed, most apps I've tested so far work just as good or better on Win 10 preview.

If the comp is still good for daily work, it will last a little longer, maybe until the Black Friday offerings are reached, ne?

- Yamaban.

That's a good idea. My system is very reliable and should last for another several years. I just need a newer more powerful graphics card. I am presently using a GeForce 8600 GTS. But for daily computing it's quite satisfactory. I have 8 GB of RAM and looking into installing an Western Digital 1 or 2 TB hard drive. Or, purchase and Crucial SSD 256 GB for system and save all /data to the hard drives. -- Cheers! Roman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

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