On 01/07/2012 01:12 AM, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

On 07.01.2012 10:27, C wrote:

...

If I had to pick something that was obviously "broken" with my 12.1 install I can think of only one thing.. when closing an application, it sometimes stays behind in the taskbar. Looks like the app is still there, but it's not running anymore.

Yeah and the NetworkManager/PolicyKit issues, have you filed a bugreport yet for the taskbar-problem? I got the same but thought it's due to performance issues of my machine.

--kdl

I have the taskbar thing too. I'm running kde 4.7.2. -johnm -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 10:01 AM, C wrote:

On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 09:21, johnm wrote:

...

On 01/07/2012 01:12 AM, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

On 07.01.2012 10:27, C wrote:

...

If I had to pick something that was obviously "broken" with my 12.1 install I can think of only one thing.. when closing an application, it sometimes stays behind in the taskbar.  Looks like the app is still there, but it's not running anymore.

Yeah and the NetworkManager/PolicyKit issues, have you filed a bugreport yet for the taskbar-problem? I got the same but thought it's due to performance issues of my machine.

I have the taskbar thing too. I'm running kde 4.7.2.

This issue has been around since at least 4.6... maybe earlier.  I found a bug report on it at one point (wasn't my bug report, someone else raised the bug).  I lost the link though.  Digging through Bugzilla is.. not fun.. so I don't have the link to the bug report.  I don't know the current status.  Hopefully it will be fixed... or is fixed in 4.8?  It'll be easy to test once 4.8 hits Factory (or someone can test on Unstable).

I have been using 4.8 for a couple months and have not seen the problem. I have not seen it in 4.7.4 on another computer, either. Here is the bug report: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=275469 Someone may have included the relevant patches in openSUSE or maybe it is fixed upstream for 4.7.4, 4.8, or Qt 4.8. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 08.01.2012 12:20, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

On 08.01.2012 09:21, johnm wrote:

...

I have the taskbar thing too. I'm running kde 4.7.2.

okay, so who of us will do the bugreport? And where? my fault, someone other already done it.

--kdl -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Lørdag den 7. januar 2012 11:01:09 skrev Malvern Star:

I wouldn't get your hopes up Roger. I made the same appeal for 12.1 and it made no difference at all. Unless the 12.2 release somehow manages to be significantly better, it will be time to switch distros.

Maybe because you guys are barking up the wrong tree? Do you have any reason whatsoever to think that kdepim issues and plasma buggyness is openSUSE specific? 99% of these issues are upstream issues. kdepim issues are expected in 4.7 because of the major switch to using akonadi for all applications, and things are likely to only get better from now on. Plasma issues... well... at least it should get less crashy as plasmoids are rewritten in qml. And for 4.8 apparently the plasma team did a lot of bugfixing and some bugdays for the desktop version: http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2011/11/more-plasma-workspaces-48-news.html http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2011/12/quick-bug-days-wrap-up.html -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 7. Januar 2012, 20:11:38 schrieb Malvern Star:

The issue with ejecting optical discs I have mentioned so often is indeed suse-specific.

Is there a bug report? It works for me with an audio CD.

As is the broken updater applet.

Apper is not openSUSE-specific and you have been shown in the thread you started back then that your arguments are not coherent. You even made false claims about it not being possible to install patches which ask the user for accepting an EULA.

Plus the choice to remove clickable user icons from the login screen.

I have no idea about this issue, yet it does sound like a themeing issue to me. So you can change the theme and if upstream themes do not allow you to do it either it's not openSUSE-specific. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2012-01-07 at 12:31 +0100, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Samstag, 7. Januar 2012, 20:11:38 schrieb Malvern Star:

...

The issue with ejecting optical discs I have mentioned so often is indeed suse-specific.

Is there a bug report? It works for me with an audio CD.

...

As is the broken updater applet.

Apper is not openSUSE-specific and you have been shown in the thread you started back then that your arguments are not coherent. You even made false claims about it not being possible to install patches which ask the user for accepting an EULA. No, but it works on the other distros that use it. We had patched it, and it was acting predictably for a couple of weeks and then was broken again. Can we PLEASE just scrap it?

...

Plus the choice to remove clickable user icons from the login screen.

I have no idea about this issue, yet it does sound like a themeing issue to me. So you can change the theme and if upstream themes do not allow you to do it either it's not openSUSE-specific.

Sven

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On Sat, 2012-01-07 at 17:33 +0100, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Samstag, 7. Januar 2012, 07:59:45 schrieb Roger Luedecke:

...

...

Apper is not openSUSE-specific and you have been shown in the thread you started back then that your arguments are not coherent. You even made false claims about it not being possible to install patches which ask the user for accepting an EULA.

No, but it works on the other distros that use it.

The EULA issue? If so, it's a zypper issue and hence you have to kick the zypper devs and not the KDE-devs who are already fire-fighting at a lot of places outside KDE because those make KDE look bad. Sometimes xorg/nvidia, then zypper, then dbus etc.

...

We had patched it, and it was acting predictably for a couple of weeks and then was broken again. Can we PLEASE just scrap it?

Without suggesting a replacement?

Sven YaST is a replacement. YaST is the original way... and I'm not sure we need to coddle users since we claim to be not for beginners anyway.

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On Sat, 2012-01-07 at 18:03 +0100, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Samstag, 7. Januar 2012, 08:48:41 schrieb Roger Luedecke:

...

YaST is a replacement. YaST is the original way... and I'm not sure we need to coddle users since we claim to be not for beginners anyway.

If we are not for beginners openSUSE users are able to disable apper and use YaST. So I do not get why apper has to be removed in order to make people use YaST if they want to. Everybody who dislikes it can remove it already. It's your choice to (not) use it.

Sven Agreed... if Apper worked. As it stands, its broken, has been broken, and will probably be broken forever.

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Am Samstag, 7. Januar 2012, 09:12:21 schrieb Roger Luedecke:

Agreed... if Apper worked. As it stands, its broken, has been broken, and will probably be broken forever.

Again, if it is broken for you, why do you not just remove it? If it works for others why would they not use it? It's the user's choice whether to use a systray applet or not. Removing it without an alternative would force those users that it works for to not use a systray applet. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Saturday, January 07, 2012 11:51:55 AM Sven Burmeister wrote:

Again, if it is broken for you, why do you not just remove it?

Because you can't as apper keeps package management blocked almost all the time. It is either checking for updates, or just hanging around. It took few iterations of: ps x |grep apper kill <apperPID> zypper rm apper if no change go back and find new pid, to finally succeed and lock package management for me. I made it just before I started to think about: kill <apperPID> && zypper rm apper Just wondering, who made it almost invincible? Respawn process after being explicitly removed, like it is something that system will not run without?! There is no context menu (right click) item to tell system to stop apper, like other it is present with programs. There is no option to stop it in settings, unless user figures out that update interval "never" will do that to some extent. It was the only option in 11.4 that was able to prevent checks for updates every 10 minutes. Problem is that above works only on automatic updates, not on currently running process. Also, it will not prevent manual start, like when user is browsing Configure Desktop (Personal Settings, systemsettings), and try to see what software module is doing; apper will cheerfully start to abuse given chance. When I start zypper/YSM (YaST Software Management) and it finds package management locked, it will propose to ask application that is locking system to quit, but after several iterations system is still locked by the same application. I use package management often and having to fight for right to use it with automatic system like Apper doesn't work for me. What is broken, Apper or libzypp backend, I don't know, and after few failed attempts to provide updater suitable for new users I don't care much. I give it a chance, but on a first misbehavior I just blow annoyance from the system, if it is possible, which in the most recent incarnation was somewhat annoying experience. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Sunday, January 08, 2012 11:17:37 AM Patrick Shanahan wrote:

but you *can*:

12:12 Crash: ~ > zypper se apper Loading repository data... Reading installed packages...

S | Name | Summary | Type --+-------------------------+---------------------------------------------- | apper | KDE interface for PackageKit | package | | apper | KDE interface for PackageKit | srcpackage | | apper-lang | Languages for package apper | package

Sure I can :) arthur:~ # zypper se apper Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... S | Name | Summary | Type --+--------------------------+--------------------------------------------- | dbg114-device-mapper 4| device-mapper: fixed mkinitrd fails to There is more then one annoyance in 12.1 so 11.4 will do for the time being. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/01/12 16:48, Roger Luedecke wrote: [snip]

YaST is a replacement. YaST is the original way... and I'm not sure we need to coddle users since we claim to be not for beginners anyway.

Who says openSUSE is not for beginners? SuSE/openSUSE was my first distro (version 6.x), and I've never used any other for serious work. My computers are used for the usual mail/browsing/office/games and as a hobby. The latter is one of the reasons I prefer linux to the other operating system. Beginners have to climb a learning curve, whatever system they start on, but I don't think openSUSE is particularly harder in that respect. My wife, who is very non-techy, made the transition from Windows to oS fairly painlessly, though I am still responsible for applying patches and upgrades. But that was no different with Windows, and on linux I can ssh into her machine and su to do those tasks - and yes, we do still live in the same house :) Just my (possibly OT) 2p worth. Bob -- Bob Williams System: Linux 2.6.37.6-0.9-desktop Distro: openSUSE 11.4 (x86_64) with KDE Development Platform: 4.7.2 (4.7.2) Uptime: 18:00pm up 9 days 3:39, 4 users, load average: 4.22, 2.64, 1.30 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

I have similar experience wrt my 85+ year old mother. She has been using openSUSE for 5 or 6 years now. Originally with a dual boot, she was 90% Windows-XP and 10% openSUSE GNU/Linux. Now its the other way around, and she is 90% openSUSE and 10% Windows-XP. Like your wife, my mother is definitely non-techy and I do the updates (remotely a continent away as she is in Canada and I in Europe). I train her via vnc when I take over her desktop and talk to her on Skype at the same time. OpenSUSE with KDE4 works well for her. She is currently still running openSUSE-11.3 with the 'stock' KDE4 and will likely remain running that until September this year, when I may visit Canada and update her PC to openSUSE-12.1's KDE. So I believe with the appropriate level of support, and an attitude/willingness to accept support (which my my 85+ year old mother has) then openSUSE can be used by beginners. A positive spin, with a lets ALL roll up our sleeves and help approach (and NOT just the developers/packagers do all the work and the users only complain, but rather an approach where ALL do some sort of work and contribution), seems to me to be the best approach. Lee aka oldcpu On 01/07/2012 09:04 PM, Bob Williams wrote:

On 07/01/12 16:48, Roger Luedecke wrote: [snip]

...

YaST is a replacement. YaST is the original way... and I'm not sure we need to coddle users since we claim to be not for beginners anyway.

Who says openSUSE is not for beginners? SuSE/openSUSE was my first distro (version 6.x), and I've never used any other for serious work. My computers are used for the usual mail/browsing/office/games and as a hobby. The latter is one of the reasons I prefer linux to the other operating system.

Beginners have to climb a learning curve, whatever system they start on, but I don't think openSUSE is particularly harder in that respect. My wife, who is very non-techy, made the transition from Windows to oS fairly painlessly, though I am still responsible for applying patches and upgrades. But that was no different with Windows, and on linux I can ssh into her machine and su to do those tasks - and yes, we do still live in the same house :)

Just my (possibly OT) 2p worth.

Bob

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On Sun, 2012-01-08 at 11:11 +0100, LisufasGnome3 wrote:

Am Sonntag, den 08.01.2012, 10:42 +0100 schrieb oldcpu:

...

A positive spin, with a lets ALL roll up our sleeves and help approach (and NOT just the developers/packagers do all the work and the users only complain, but rather an approach where ALL do some sort of work and contribution), seems to me to be the best approach.

+ 1

agree! However, it is increasingly difficult to inspire other user for the opensuse project. Unfortunately, most users want or can not be active. I speak from experience, I am already active in the German wiki and I know what I mean. complain about the lack of translations and the lack of documentation, the "caller" numerous. if it comes here to help improve the situation, is fast at rest in "forest"!

maybe someone would have a "fortune teller" go borrow their crystal ball and risk a view to exploring what the cause is that so few are willing user when any project opensuse contribute. ;-)

I think it largely has to do with the haphazard state of our various resources. We lack a good set of team management and collaboration tools. Not to mention, thanks to that it leaves our wiki in a pitiful state. We need to implement better, more centralized tools for task and team management as well as a cleaner structuring for access of our support resources. Finding any bit of information is a labyrinthine endeavor. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 2012-01-08 at 14:25 -0800, dh wrote:

On Sunday, January 08, 2012, oldcpu wrote:

...

I have similar experience wrt my 85+ year old mother. She has been using openSUSE for 5 or 6 years now. Originally with a dual boot, she was 90% Windows-XP and 10% openSUSE GNU/Linux. Now its the other way around, and she is 90% openSUSE and 10% Windows-XP. Like your wife, my mother is definitely non-techy and I do the updates (remotely a continent away as she is in Canada and I in Europe). I train her via vnc when I take over her desktop and talk to her on Skype at the same time. OpenSUSE with KDE4 works well for her.

She is currently still running openSUSE-11.3 with the 'stock' KDE4 and will likely remain running that until September this year, when I may visit Canada and update her PC to openSUSE-12.1's KDE.

So I believe with the appropriate level of support, and an attitude/willingness to accept support (which my my 85+ year old mother has) then openSUSE can be used by beginners.

-----------snip------------------

I believe the original comment about beginners may have been a reference to the "openSUSE Mission Statement." http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Strategy#openSUSE_Mission_Statement

To quote the paragraph "Target Users": "The project caters to users who are interested in computers and want to get work done, experiment or learn. We offer a stable and enjoyable computing experience which does not limit freedom of choice; offering sane defaults and easy configuration."

I would note, this statement does not limit our community by turning away new users, it only suggests that our target audience is one which is willing to spend a little effort in learning how to use the tools effectively..

As this thread has also discussed software which may not perform as hoped, I would also call attention to the second sentence of that same quotation.

I tried to find the original reference to new users in this thread, but the thread has covered so much teritory that perhaps it is time to put it to bed and allow each specific topic to start fresh.

Also, apologies oldcpu, somehow my "reply to" button has gone back to its default / incorrect behaviour and i responded directly to you :-( I'll look into fixing that...

see ya dh Agreed. This thread has addressed many things adequately, and much more is likely to be bikeshedding. Hence my QA team thread.

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Am Samstag, 7. Januar 2012, 11:01:28 schrieb LisufasGnome3:

That starts at the plasma crashes for no apparent reason again and

Did you try the STABLE repo, since it contains fixes already. Also there is https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=736725 to track plasma crashes which have been fixed upstream. And as Martin already mentioned. If the bugs are upstream opensuse is the wrong place to ask for help etc. Only opensuse-specific issues can be fixed by opensuse.

again, kmail (kontact) behaves as if it was still beta software, the start of the KDE desktop takes longer (more than 1 min) as needed for loggin opensuse. I must honestly say that alone with these problems for me was due to move to gnome 3 .... the test system → to general system!

That's ok. There are lots that do not like Gnome 3, there are lots who like it, some like KDE better etc. Free choice.

Exampel: According to my understanding so far is in K:D:F the test for K:R:47 ... right?

No.

But was in K:R:47 is the next release (KDE 4.7.4) already available rather than in K:D:F should theoretically where the test actually occur. Only if the version 4.7.4 is stable enough for this should K:R:47 are pushed. This process was already with K:R:46 to watch.

As the wiki lines out KDF is for testing the "KDE packages under development for the upcoming *openSUSE* release" not KDE release.

Well I found out recently that it already K:R:48 is the same goes further since then? I hope not! If you do, you could then K: D: F save, right? This should think about the team. How is one to explain the upcoming KDE users spending only in KDE Factory must be tested in order to get stability, but then if the latest KDE version is already offered in the upstream before it was available and tested in KDE Factory.

AFAIR it was meant as follows: KDF: See above. KRxy: updated only after a new KDE minor release, independent of KDF Extra: Apps that are not part of the distro (community maintained) UpdatedApps: New versions of apps that are part of the distro (opensuse maintained) KUSC: only for experts. Playground: only for experts That's why Extra and UpdatedApps are in the "community repository list" available through YaST's "add repo" functionality. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, den 07.01.2012, 12:23 +0100 schrieb Sven Burmeister:

As the wiki lines out KDF is for testing the "KDE packages under development for the upcoming *openSUSE* release" not KDE release.

Sven, If so, then I do not know why there are packages available for 11.4 or 12.1. If K:D:F to actually test for it because KDE for openSUSE versions coming, but then you would need current or past openSUSE not expenses, right? It is exactly what no one can plausibly explain. ;-) -- Grüße aus' m Schwabenland ↓ → Lisufa, der Linuxsusefan ↓ ################################## ********************************** ....::: openSUSE Member :::..... ************************************************************* Die 'SuS(i)E' sei mit euch, wo immer ihr auch seid .... *************************************************************

Am Samstag, den 07.01.2012, 12:56 +0100 schrieb Sven Burmeister:

How many testers do you think there would be if KDF would only be build for opensuse_factory?

Sven, I can not tell you. What I can say is that an outsider might be of interest for opensuse user no longer sees through when he or she looks at the scape and scole KDE Repolist in the wiki. If the upstream before the next version of KDE is included, it makes me not plausible why the same packages again in K:D:F (KDE Factory) should be. That just makes it confusing. It would be enough but in the packages for the current (currently 12.1) and (only better) next openSUSE version (Factory → 12.2) in K:D:F offered. If someone wants to use upstream is K:R:48 for 12.1, 11.4 etc there. I think that would be understood by every user, whether beginner, transit through or single user. -- Grüße aus' m Schwabenland ↓ → Lisufa, der Linuxsusefan ↓ ################################## ********************************** ....::: openSUSE Member :::..... ************************************************************* Die 'SuS(i)E' sei mit euch, wo immer ihr auch seid .... *************************************************************

Am Samstag, den 07.01.2012, 07:56 -0800 schrieb Roger Luedecke:

Well, frankly the way you are doing it isn't exactly the recommended usage. Though I'm wondering if we need to make the wiki clearer on what repo is for what.

Generally there are the community repos, that are well maintained and suitable for general use which can be added painlessly with YaST. Anything else needed would be obtained via our nifty one click crap, and that would pull in the other repos it needs as well.

I use this not as described. the described use is exactly what the user can not find your way. I know exactly what I can use repos. I give my best to explain other users what is contained in what repositories which can also use repos in which constellation. But even for me as a more experienced user it is difficult to see through this repo jungle. Explain more than in the wiki you can not. If anyone feels able to explain it better in the wiki, you should do it. but unfortunately there is nobody ..... ;-) -- Grüße aus' m Schwabenland ↓ → Lisufa, der Linuxsusefan ↓ ################################## ********************************** ....::: openSUSE Member :::..... ************************************************************* Die 'SuS(i)E' sei mit euch, wo immer ihr auch seid .... *************************************************************

Dnia niedziela, 8 stycznia 2012 o 16:57:56 Rajko M. napisał(a):

For instance one that wants to switch from another KDE distro to avoid some bugs, will want to know which version we have, as she/he knows from kde.org where is bug resolved. Without repo that is named by version, only few KDE insiders can give that information, and that often ends in no information at all, as they are busy doing something else.

That scenario is covered by openSUSE software search. IMHO, Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Rajko M. said the following on 01/12/2012 10:54 PM:

On Wednesday, January 11, 2012 08:04:50 AM Křištof Želechovski wrote:

...

Dnia niedziela, 8 stycznia 2012 o 16:57:56 Rajko M. napisał(a):

...

For instance one that wants to switch from another KDE distro to avoid some bugs, will want to know which version we have, as she/he knows from kde.org where is bug resolved. Without repo that is named by version, only few KDE insiders can give that information, and that often ends in no information at all, as they are busy doing something else.

That scenario is covered by openSUSE software search.

It is not. Search will not tell you what can be mixed, and mix of incompatible repos is probably 30% of problems that users asking for help on IRC experience.

I don't subscribe to IRC but people off-list and newbies have disparaged openSuse by calling it being like "DLL Hell", and as far as I can tell it is because they have activated incompatible repos. To be honest, I've never met that problem but then (a) I make sure the repos I use are for the release I'm using and (b) I don't go hog wild adding repos. Oh, and I recognise that things like "Factory" and "Tumbleweed" are going to be unstable and incomplete. But then again I don't feel I have to be at the bleeding edge every minute of the day. -- Psst! Viral marketing works! Tell everyone you know! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Fredag den 13. januar 2012 14:10:58 Graham Anderson skrev:

On Friday 13 Jan 2012 07:49:56 Anton Aylward wrote:

...

I don't subscribe to IRC but people off-list and newbies have disparaged openSuse by calling it being like "DLL Hell"

Which is kind of ironic because the warnings and blocks put up by our software management stack prevent "dll hell" in the first place. Not to mention that we have the best dependancy resolution library in the industry (libzypp).

It's not something I've heard or read directly. For the most part it's badly informed or ignorant .deb users blindly bitching about RPM because they read some 10 year old article written by another clueless moron.

I'll take libbzypp based package management over Yum or libapt any day of the week.

Very often people consider "vendor change" prompts as "package conflicts". At least that's a big part of the problem. Or adding incompatible repos via 1-clicks from software.opensuse.org/search might also explain some of these misconceptions. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Fredag den 13. januar 2012 18:38:17 Graham Anderson skrev:

On Friday 13 Jan 2012 17:14:31 Martin Schlander wrote:

...

Very often people consider "vendor change" prompts as "package conflicts". At least that's a big part of the problem.

Well admitedly "vendor change" is not really terminology the average user will be familiar with, and perhaps they not even fully understand what a package conflict means and why they can't proceed with their install without overiding and puting the system into an unstable state.

In my eyes, the solution to this is the information offered to the user has to be presented in a more easily understood way.

Perhaps we should go further. At the same time as offering a better description or explanation of what a "vendor change" is, we can disable the ability to ignore package conflicts. Make it a toggle or configuration option that experienced users can turn back on.

It would make a hell of a difference if YaST would simply default to suggesting doing the vendor change(s) and asking the user if it's OK yes/no, instead of "forcing" the user to actively choose between 3 different actions with no default action pre-selected/suggested... No idea how you explain these sorts of things to a yast or zypp developer though. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2012-01-14 at 09:30 +0100, Richard Bos wrote:

At vrijdag 13 januari 2012 13:49:56 wrote Anton Aylward:

...

I don't subscribe to IRC but people off-list and newbies have disparaged openSuse by calling it being like "DLL Hell",

some time ago I checked for a skype update on MS Windows. There was one, so I took the plunge and updated. After the update, skype did not start at all. Don't know why, as it doesn't tell me. I probably need to upgrade from to a newer Windows version. This would not happen with a good package manager like zypper, as that knows in advance, if everything is present on the system, to let the new / upgraded application work. Oh and btw, the old skype version is no longer around.... No skype anymore.

-- Richard Ah, so thats what was meant by DLL hell. I had a strange experience once. I installed Skype on 12.1 and it seemed to have decided the ENTIRE gnome desktop was a depndancy... must have been a package kit bug. I installed with YaST and then it was perfect.

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At zaterdag 14 januari 2012 22:16:36 wrote Dr. Ralf Czekalla:

Am 14.01.2012 09:30, schrieb Richard Bos:

...

At vrijdag 13 januari 2012 13:49:56 wrote Anton Aylward:

...

I don't subscribe to IRC but people off-list and newbies have disparaged openSuse by calling it being like "DLL Hell",

some time ago I checked for a skype update on MS Windows. There was one, so I took the plunge and updated. After the update, skype did not start at all. Don't know why, as it doesn't tell me. I probably need to upgrade from to a newer Windows version. This would not happen with a good package manager like zypper, as that knows in advance, if everything is present on the system, to let the new / upgraded application work. Oh and btw, the old skype version is no longer around.... No skype anymore.

Simply use the version from

repositories/home:/Lord_LT/openSUSE_11.4

I operate it for quite some time and it's working well...

Interesting. Does it support webcam (video too)? BTW: I meant with no skype anymore, skype on Windows because of (very) bad package / software version management. -- Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Am 14.01.2012 23:28, schrieb Richard Bos:

...

At zaterdag 14 januari 2012 22:16:36 wrote Dr. Ralf Czekalla:

...

Am 14.01.2012 09:30, schrieb Richard Bos:

...

At vrijdag 13 januari 2012 13:49:56 wrote Anton Aylward:

...

I don't subscribe to IRC but people off-list and newbies have disparaged openSuse by calling it being like "DLL Hell",

some time ago I checked for a skype update on MS Windows. There was one, so I took the plunge and updated. After the update, skype did not start at all. Don't know why, as it doesn't tell me. I probably need to upgrade from to a newer Windows version. This would not happen with a good package manager like zypper, as

On Saturday, January 14, 2012 11:43:51 PM Dr. Ralf Czekalla wrote: that

...

...

...

knows in advance, if everything is present on the system, to let the new / upgraded application work. Oh and btw, the old skype version is no longer around.... No skype anymore.

Simply use the version from

repositories/home:/Lord_LT/openSUSE_11.4

I operate it for quite some time and it's working well...

Interesting. Does it support webcam (video too)?

BTW: I meant with no skype anymore, skype on Windows because of (very) bad package / software version management.

Yes, indeed. I operate it here with all kind of webcams: From my very old Philips up the most recent Notebook internal once.

If you need some packages it's always worth looking through the home directories. Unfortunately with the opensuse repository search this option is usually deactivated by default.

Dear Ralf, Saw your response and just installed the skype from your site. Although it had the same version number as the official Skype download It now works also on my system without going through the hoops in order to get my webcam working, Thanks. have your repository on my list now. Constant -- Linux User 183145 using LXDE and KDE4 on a Pentium IV , powered by openSUSE 12.1 (i586) Kernel: 3.1.0-1.2-default LXDE WM & KDE Development Platform: 4.7.4 (4.7.4) 10:53am up 10:15, 2 users, load average: 0.30, 0.35, 0.32 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2012-01-07 at 11:01 +0100, LisufasGnome3 wrote:

However, I must now say something about KDE. I'm after the KDE 4.7 in my opinion a rather step back in terms of stability and user friendliness, is a satisfied user become GNOME 3.

That starts at the plasma crashes for no apparent reason again and again, kmail (kontact) behaves as if it was still beta software, the start of the KDE desktop takes longer (more than 1 min) as needed for loggin opensuse. I must honestly say that alone with these problems for me was due to move to gnome 3 .... the test system → to general system! This has been my exact experience on two fairly different machines, and what I refer to. I would have also suffered Gnome3 except I found it to be very unresponsive. Thus I have rolled backe to 11.4 Gnome. The reason for going Gnome this time is that the KDE 4.7 did in fact have some improvements, and rather than miss those in the rollback I'm better off using an entirely different environment.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 07.01.2012 12:09, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Samstag, 7. Januar 2012, 01:02:36 schrieb Roger Luedecke:

...

Frankly, 12.1 KDE has been so painful in many regards that i have rolled back my machines to 11.4 Gnome. I'm hoping that the KDE team will look on the many problems, and rather than push new technologies will instead press to fix the issues plaguing 12.1. Though 11.4 was rough out of the gates, it could be easily worked around and was almost entirely fixed and stabilized less than two months after its release. Frankly, with the minor decrease in quality and consistency of 11.4 and then the more serious issue around 12.1 I fear for the fate of openSUSE. I hope we can engage a meaningful dialog to address these issues and aim for a better product.

Sorry to say, but your email is useless.

You do not mention any concrete issues. You do not mention which KDE versions you tried, the STABLE repo does for example already contain quite a lot of plasma crash fixes.

Don't get me wrong, I do not doubt that there are issues – but such a general email is useless to tackle them. And since a lot of people write the opposite of your experiences with KDE 4.7 (except pim) there is really nothing anybody could take from your email in order to improve anything.

Let's make the world a better place, is as precise and helpful as your email.

Sven

Roger, I guess the best thing to do is filling bugreports on bnc. I know it's wiry to hear that all the time but that's how developers work. I too have been at odds with the 12.1 KDE during the Beta and RC phase but since I'm used to it, I like it. It seems to me that KDE 4.6.x was more integrated in 11.4 then 4.7.x in 12.1, maybe it's just my POV and anyone else is thinking otherwise. So, it's really like "these who can do, these who can't complain". Don't get me wrong, I think your feedback was okay and necessary for a working community, but as long as there aren't any ideas how to solve, there aren't any solutions too. In short: Either you come up with patcher on your own, or you give more information, nobody will cares. Hackers have the attitude to ignore posts which aren't "good enough" for them to answer. I'm afraid, that's how it all works. So, let's grab some more information, come back and deliver them, and then let's see what to do next to solve the issues (if not already done), okay? ;-) kdl -- Kim Leyendecker, openSUSE Wiki Team GPG Key: 664265369547B825 | leyendecker@opensuse.org http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 07.01.2012 12:53, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Samstag, 7. Januar 2012, 12:48:17 schrieb K. Dennis Leyendecker:

...

Roger, I guess the best thing to do is filling bugreports on bnc. I know it's wiry to hear that all the time but that's how developers work.

Please read http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Bug_Screening_KDE#Upstream_vs_downstream before reporting bugs. bnc is mostly the wrong place for KDE bugs but rather a place to report patches.

Sven

You're right, bugs.kde.org is the right way for KDE-related bugs, _but_ what if the assignee can't figure out if the bug is KDE or openSUSE related? I mean, the openSUSE KDE version is patched by the KDE team. Have a look at Kubuntu or Slackware, they deliver plain KDE, so *there* it would make sense to go directly to the upstream bug tracker. I'd rather post my bug on SUSE/Novell infrastructure if I found it in openSUSE then on the KDE ones, because, I, as a normal KDE-user, don't know what's plain KDE and what's patched by our KDE team. SO, I'd rather get redirected from bnc to bugs.k.o then otherwise. But that's only my (very personal) POV. Following the given way of your link *should* be the desired way. I'm not that deep into KDE, because, as I mentioned before, I'm only an user, so I'm more interested in the finished solution then in the way how get it. Anyway, does the KDE-team have any kind of a "wishlist" for us users to tell you what we want? I know there's openFATE but until it becomes more popular under our users, it wins the "How I let my feature rot best"-award from me (again, who can do, who can't complain ;-) ) --kdl -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Dnia sobota, 7 stycznia 2012 o 13:37:14 K. Dennis Leyendecker napisał(a):

I'd rather post my bug on SUSE/Novell infrastructure if I found it in openSUSE then on the KDE ones, because, I, as a normal KDE-user, don't know what's plain KDE and what's patched by our KDE team.

That would require patching DrKonqi, which is rather risky because it is one of the support applications that MUST NOT fail. Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2012-01-07 at 08:31 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:

On Saturday, January 07, 2012 05:53:09 AM Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

Am Samstag, 7. Januar 2012, 12:48:17 schrieb K. Dennis Leyendecker:

...

Roger, I guess the best thing to do is filling bugreports on bnc. I know it's wiry to hear that all the time but that's how developers work.

Please read http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Bug_Screening_KDE#Upstream_vs_downstream before reporting bugs. bnc is mostly the wrong place for KDE bugs but rather a place to report patches.

Sven,

Asking people to take time and find where bug report belongs is counter productive. It underestimates how much knowledge is needed to be qualified to make such decision, and will result in additional questions procrastinating bug report, or even lead people to give up and not report issues at all [2].

Anyone that decide to read above article will end with partial, not maintained list [1]: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:KDE_openSUSE_modifications and will have to ask where to file bug report, which as end effect will only increase user involvement before bug is reported and increase chance to have no bug report at all.

Even if list would be accurate, one must know in the list used terminology, which is not obvious, daily language, which will produce questions, or just result in "this is not for me" and give up on bug report.

When someone somehow finds out that "Upstream_vs_downstream" exists it is still good chance to make mistake, and end in the same position as those that doesn't bother to read bug reporting instructions.

Majority of users are not crazy about opportunity to learn something about development [3], and that means there will be no bug reports and no action taken to fix the problems.

-------------- [1] There is list of changes and it is mentioned in above article: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:KDE_openSUSE_modifications It contains 11.1, 11.2, 11.3 and items without version. Having experience with other wiki articles, I used link History, and last change was 17:43, 15 August 2010, which was adding * Konsole - Super User Mode * Dolphin - Super User Mode.

In other words list is not maintained. How many items in that list is already included in the upstream version?

Asking users to file bugs in appropriate bug tracker, without accurate list, is the same as asking to add, to already archaic and not so easy bug reporting process: * search for list of changes in openSUSE package for specific version * search for list of changes in upstream software for specific version * compare two lists. How many can do that?

[2] It is what I do, active openSUSE user and contributor in some areas. Having to read a lot to compensate for lack of people able to triage bugs, I'm reporting issues only when I have time and feel in a mood to spend few hours doing that, otherwise I just use workarounds as a more efficient way to have problem fixed.

[3] We all have different ideas what computer can be used for, and even when that is openSUSE related it doesn't mean that it is about reporting issues, specially when it means that one can be slammed with "this is upstream" and bug being closed.

-- Regards, Rajko Thank you! +9000

This echos so many of the issues I have. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Dnia sobota, 7 stycznia 2012 o 15:31:37 Rajko M. napisał(a):

On Saturday, January 07, 2012 05:53:09 AM Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

Am Samstag, 7. Januar 2012, 12:48:17 schrieb K. Dennis Leyendecker:

...

Roger, I guess the best thing to do is filling bugreports on bnc. I know it's wiry to hear that all the time but that's how developers work.

Please read http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Bug_Screening_KDE#Upstream_vs_downstream before reporting bugs. bnc is mostly the wrong place for KDE bugs but rather a place to report patches.

Sven,

Asking people to take time and find where bug report belongs is counter productive. It underestimates how much knowledge is needed to be qualified to make such decision, and will result in additional questions procrastinating bug report, or even lead people to give up and not report issues at all [2].

The right place to report a bug in an application is the application bug tracker. openSUSE users are not in position to test what happens when pristine packages are used instead. The application maintainers have the following choices: * WORKSFORME => broken by a SUSE patch (?), report to SUSE * DOWNSTREAM => broken in a plugin or by a SUSE patch. If the plugin is from SUSE, report to SUSE. * UPSTREAM => broken in a supporting library; think it is still a bug in the application to use a broken library and it is the developers’ responsibility to report upstream. * FIXED => report to SUSE ASAP!

-------------- [1] There is list of changes and it is mentioned in above article: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:KDE_openSUSE_modifications It contains 11.1, 11.2, 11.3 and items without version. Having experience with other wiki articles, I used link History, and last change was 17:43, 15 August 2010, which was adding * Konsole - Super User Mode * Dolphin - Super User Mode.

In other words list is not maintained. How many items in that list is already included in the upstream version?

I was very surprised to see the Disk Space Notifier there. IMHO, Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Saturday, January 07, 2012 10:11:50 AM Roger Luedecke wrote:

We really ought to have a big flowchart for this sort of stuff. Its hard to know the whole procedure when its scattered to the four winds on a half broken wiki.

I agree on a flow chart, but to make one it takes time. Even when you have software that will create diagram from list of nodes, their connections and properties for both, you have to make those lists. That is manual work, with exception of Internet infrastructure where that can be automated to some extent. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org