[opensuse-kde] Some repositories will be deleted soon

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Christophe Giboudeaux

9 Jan 2013 9 Jan '13

11:02

Hi, As decided during the last meeting, some repositories are going to be removed soon. There are two reasons for this decision: - Saving disk space - Saving build power The following repositories will be removed in a couple days: - KDE:Release:46 - KDE:Release:47 The following flavors will be removed from the KDE:Unstable:Playground repository at the same time: - KDE_Release_47_openSUSE_12.1 - KDE_Release_48_openSUSE_12.1 - KDE_Release_49_openSUSE_12.1 - openSUSE_12.1 These changes will be applied in 7 days. Thanks, Christophe

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dh

10 Jan 10 Jan

03:59

On Wednesday, January 09, 2013 12:02:12 PM Christophe Giboudeaux wrote:

...

Hi,

As decided during the last meeting, some repositories are going to be removed soon.

There are two reasons for this decision: - Saving disk space - Saving build power

Most certainly good reasons.

...

The following repositories will be removed in a couple days: - KDE:Release:46 - KDE:Release:47

The following flavors will be removed from the KDE:Unstable:Playground repository at the same time: - KDE_Release_47_openSUSE_12.1 - KDE_Release_48_openSUSE_12.1 - KDE_Release_49_openSUSE_12.1 - openSUSE_12.1

These changes will be applied in 7 days.

Thank you for the warning, I have a couple of questions / comments. (Guess I should participate more in the KDE team meetings) BTW, although I use some all caps phrases below, it is for emphasis, please do not assume anger or lack of appreciation of the work done by all those involved. If you want the short version, My suggestions Please do not drop /KDE:/Unstable:/Playground/KDE_Release_49_openSUSE_12.1 KDE:Release:47 (for openSUSE 12.1) Drop the other repos as planned Lengthy and persuasive arguments follow :-) It seems to me that dropping /KDE:/Unstable:/Playground/KDE_Release_49_openSUSE_12.1 and KDE:Release:47 (for openSUSE12.1) is only a tiny step from openSUSE implicitly taking a position that ONLY the current release of the distro will be supported. To quote the release notes for 12.1 "openSUSE 12.1 ships the KDE Plasma Desktop 4.7 as default workspace" I recognize that KDE4.7 is "Old" by distro standards, but to drop the recommended upgrade route for a release before it reaches EOL seems to be a bad move.

...

From the openSUSE Portal: "openSUSE products are backed with free software updates for 18 months after release."

Although no specific mention is made of repositories outside the core release, it seems to me that if we make upgrade recommendations such as those on the en.opensuse.org/KDE_repositories page, then support for those recommendations should not be dropped until the distro reaches EOL. As for the Playground repos (my personal concern), in order to stay up to date with software such as Calligra Office and Digikam, users will be forced into a position where they MUST expect to upgrade their operating system at each release (every ~8 months). When openSUSE decided to move to an 8 month release cycle, we began to reduce long(ish) term support stating that only previous and current releases would be supported. 16 months between upgrades did not seem to be a large problem. Version 12.1 is 14 months old, 12.3 is not even released yet, so there will only be 1 fully supported release once these repos are removed. What happens if 12.3 is delayed as 12.2 was? If previous releases are going to receive such curtailed support, then perhaps it is time to once again consider rolling releases, or as an alternative, a long term support release. I do not remember why I reverted from 12.2 to 12.1, All I remember is 12.2 did not meet my needs at release, and that I had to fight with returning to my backups at the same time that I really needed a solid tested OS for work. I do not look forward to the possibility of having to face that potential every 8 months, which is the direction we are heading. Thank you everyone for the efforts you put into this distribution, I just fear that cutting support to deeply may have a negative effect on the perception of openSUSE as being an excellent choice for business and professional use. One of the places where we have traditionally been well received. One last note, If the repos are dropped as planned, then we should be sure that the information presented at http://en.opensuse.org/KDE_repositories is updated as well. I really hope that this e-mail will lead to positive discussion rather than heated bickering. Thank you for reading dh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Christophe Giboudeaux

11:28

On Wednesday 09 January 2013 19:59:35 dh wrote:

...

On Wednesday, January 09, 2013 12:02:12 PM Christophe Giboudeaux wrote:

...
Hi,

As decided during the last meeting, some repositories are going to be removed soon.

There are two reasons for this decision: - Saving disk space - Saving build power

Most certainly good reasons.

...
The following repositories will be removed in a couple days: - KDE:Release:46 - KDE:Release:47

The following flavors will be removed from the KDE:Unstable:Playground repository at the same time: - KDE_Release_47_openSUSE_12.1 - KDE_Release_48_openSUSE_12.1 - KDE_Release_49_openSUSE_12.1 - openSUSE_12.1

These changes will be applied in 7 days.

Thank you for the warning, I have a couple of questions / comments. (Guess I should participate more in the KDE team meetings) BTW, although I use some all caps phrases below, it is for emphasis, please do not assume anger or lack of appreciation of the work done by all those involved.

If you want the short version, My suggestions Please do not drop /KDE:/Unstable:/Playground/KDE_Release_49_openSUSE_12.1 KDE:Release:47 (for openSUSE 12.1) Drop the other repos as planned

Lengthy and persuasive arguments follow :-)

It seems to me that dropping /KDE:/Unstable:/Playground/KDE_Release_49_openSUSE_12.1 and KDE:Release:47 (for openSUSE12.1) is only a tiny step from openSUSE implicitly taking a position that ONLY the current release of the distro will be supported.

Please clarify who is "openSUSE" in this sentence. Or better, I'll do it: The KDE repositories are all maintained by community members. Of course SUSE employees are available to give some help, support and/or advices but keep in mind that most of the KDE repositories are maintained by regular users.

...

To quote the release notes for 12.1 "openSUSE 12.1 ships the KDE Plasma Desktop 4.7 as default workspace" I recognize that KDE4.7 is "Old" by distro standards, but to drop the recommended upgrade route for a release before it reaches EOL seems to be a bad move.

From the openSUSE Portal: "openSUSE products are backed with free software updates for 18 months after release."

This applies to the main repositories (ie, the OSS, update and non-OSS repositories). KDE 4.7 will still be in the OSS repository. Now let's face the reality, KDE:Release:46 and 47 (and 48 but that's not the subject) are not supported anymore by upstream and unless there's a important issue to fix, you will also get no update from OpenSUSE.

...

Although no specific mention is made of repositories outside the core release, it seems to me that if we make upgrade recommendations such as those on the en.opensuse.org/KDE_repositories page, then support for those recommendations should not be dropped until the distro reaches EOL.

I tend to disagree. Wasting build power and storage space just for the sake of having unmaintained repositories around doesn't really give a positive impression.

...

As for the Playground repos (my personal concern), in order to stay up to date with software such as Calligra Office and Digikam, users will be forced into a position where they MUST expect to upgrade their operating system at each release (every ~8 months).

And in order to make this repository maintenance easier, we also have to reduce the number of supported repositories. KDE:Release:410 will be created soon and we really have to avoid using more disk space. To give some numbers. As of today, there are 86 packages in KDE:Unstable:Playground built for 10 repositories and 2 archs (and I don't count the Telepathy packages living in a sub-repo). If you want to use unstable versions from the Playground repo, please consider using recent KDE and openSUSE versions. Christophe

dh

11 Jan 11 Jan

01:15

On Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:28:08 PM Christophe Giboudeaux wrote:

...

On Wednesday 09 January 2013 19:59:35 dh wrote:

...
...
Hi, As decided during the last meeting, some repositories are going to be removed soon. --------------snip---------------- It seems to me that dropping /KDE:/Unstable:/Playground/KDE_Release_49_openSUSE_12.1 and KDE:Release:47 (for openSUSE12.1) is only a tiny step from openSUSE implicitly taking a position that ONLY

On Wednesday, January 09, 2013 12:02:12 PM Christophe Giboudeaux wrote: the current release of the distro will be supported.

Please clarify who is "openSUSE" in this sentence. Or better, I'll do it: The KDE repositories are all maintained by community members.

I'm surprised that you grabbed "who is openSUSE" rather than addressing the real question "Are we taking the position that only current and upcoming versions of the distro will be supported" (from your recommendation at the end of your reply this appears to be your position.) I always assume that openSUSE refers to the whole community, (developers, maintainers, users, contributers) including, but not limited to the SUSE corporate entity. The quotes below came from community sources, not just SUSE corporate.

...

...
To quote the release notes for 12.1 "openSUSE 12.1 ships the KDE Plasma Desktop 4.7 as default workspace" ---------snip--------- From the openSUSE Portal: "openSUSE products are backed with free software updates for 18 months after release."

...

This applies to the main repositories (ie, the OSS, update and non-OSS repositories). KDE 4.7 will still be in the OSS repository.

...

Now let's face the reality, KDE:Release:46 and 47 (and 48 but that's not the subject) are not supported anymore by upstream and unless there's a important issue to fix, you will also get no update from OpenSUSE.

This makes sense. 4.6 and 4.8 were not part of the original 12.1 release, I'm surprised those repos were not removed earlier.

...

...
Although no specific mention is made of repositories outside the core release, it seems to me that if we make upgrade recommendations such as those on the en.opensuse.org/KDE_repositories page, then support for those recommendations should not be dropped until the distro reaches EOL.

...

I tend to disagree. Wasting build power and storage space just for the sake of having unmaintained repositories around doesn't really give a positive impression.

Your response missed the point of the paragraph being referred to. It is not for the sake of "having unmaintained repositories around", 4.6, 4.7 and 4.8 may well be unmaintained, but 4.9 unstable for openSUSE12.1? That provides a testing ground for software which is headed towards KR49. Last I heard, 4.9 was current. It is part of the community recommended, "relatively safe" upgrade path. Is it being suggested that users should subscribe to non existent repos for a stable and up to date KDE4.9 system? http://en.opensuse.org/KDE_repositories "I want to..." "Get KDE SC 4.9.x from a relatively safe repository" specifically suggests using the Unstable/playground repo as part of a reasonably stable KDE 4.9 system. (The kind of system you recommended I use at the end of your reply) Perhaps we should re-evaluate that statement, but we should not remove the linked repository until the recommendation is removed or updated as well. We lose credibility as a community when we suggest users follow an upgrade path and they find nothing at the end of it. Today, a user of 12.1 who goes to the site looking for recommendations about upgrading to KDE 4.9 will have no problem. Next week after spring cleaning, they will be faced with repository not available errors and possibly installed software packages with no clear upgrade route. Not all users will be equipped to deal with that kind of confusion. I fully support moving from 4.9 to 4.10, I just think it would be better to remove the deprecated repositories AFTER the new (replacement / upgraded) repos are on-line and updated information has been provided. It is important to maintain a reputation as a community which stands behind the statements it makes. If we say a (distro) version will be supported for 18 months, we weaken our reputation by not living up to that statement. If we recommend an upgrade path and then remove that path, we get the same result. ---------snip----------

...

And in order to make this repository maintenance easier, we also have to reduce the number of supported repositories. KDE:Release:410 will be created soon and we really have to avoid using more disk space.

I agree that there are far to many repos, the work you do for the community is not easy, and is appreciated. I sure can't keep track of all the openSUSE repos. KR410 repos being created is great news, but what about unstable/playground. shouldn't the 4.10 repos be put online prior to removing the previous version? (Playground/KDE_Release_410 online before removing Playground/KDE_Release_49).

...

To give some numbers. As of today, there are 86 packages in KDE:Unstable:Playground built for 10 repositories and 2 archs (and I don't count the Telepathy packages living in a sub-repo).

(Also part of the "reasonably stable" recommendation)

...

If you want to use unstable versions from the Playground repo, please consider using recent KDE and openSUSE versions.

In my mind KDE 4.9.5 on openSUSE 12.1 is recent. (until May 15th 2013) It seems that to you recent means only the current (soon to be replaced) version of the distro, or the not yet released version :-( This seems to be at odds with the information presented by the community at http://en.opensuse.org/Lifetime :-(

...

Christophe

Thank you for your reply, as you can see I am not completely convinced that removing all of the repos discussed is a good idea, (at this exact moment) but I am not a maintainer or developer, just a member of the openSUSE community. Thanks for your reply dh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

todd rme

01:45

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 8:15 PM, dh wrote:

...

On Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:28:08 PM Christophe Giboudeaux wrote:

...
...
Although no specific mention is made of repositories outside the core release, it seems to me that if we make upgrade recommendations such as those on the en.opensuse.org/KDE_repositories page, then support for those recommendations should not be dropped until the distro reaches EOL.

...
I tend to disagree. Wasting build power and storage space just for the sake of having unmaintained repositories around doesn't really give a positive impression.

Your response missed the point of the paragraph being referred to. It is not for the sake of "having unmaintained repositories around", 4.6, 4.7 and 4.8 may well be unmaintained, but 4.9 unstable for openSUSE12.1? That provides a testing ground for software which is headed towards KR49. Last I heard, 4.9 was current. It is part of the community recommended, "relatively safe" upgrade path.

unstable:playground is not generally used as a testing ground as far as I am aware, it is used as a place for unstable or svn/git releases of software. Testing of major changes to software usually happens in KDF. So removing this doesn't much affect testing, rather it removes packages for people who want the absolute most bleeding-edge software even if it is buggy. That is really the target audience of unstable:playground. So the question is, who is so careful about only using tried-and-true software that they rely on the previous openSUSE release, but still wants bleeding-edge, buggy, unreleased software?

...

Is it being suggested that users should subscribe to non existent repos for a stable and up to date KDE4.9 system?

http://en.opensuse.org/KDE_repositories "I want to..." "Get KDE SC 4.9.x from a relatively safe repository" specifically suggests using the Unstable/playground repo as part of a reasonably stable KDE 4.9 system. (The kind of system you recommended I use at the end of your reply)

It is not saying that average users should use unstable:playground. On the contrary, it says right at the beginning: For Contributors KDE Unstable Playground Alphas, betas and SCM snapshots of KDE applications under development. Then it tells you later on which version of that goes with which SC repo (playground never has and never will have KDE SC packages). But that isn't a recommendation to use unstable:playground, rather it tells you which unstable:playground you need if you want it. unstable:playground has never been part of a "recommended upgrade path".

...

Perhaps we should re-evaluate that statement, but we should not remove the linked repository until the recommendation is removed or updated as well. We lose credibility as a community when we suggest users follow an upgrade path and they find nothing at the end of it.

That page is essentially is a list of all available repos and what extra repos goes with which core repos, so it goes without saying that if repos are removed then they should be removed from the list of available repos. That is not a major or difficult task, probably not taking more than 5 minutes, so it has no bearing on our decision here. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

dh

07:59

On Thursday, January 10, 2013 8:45:55 PM todd rme wrote:

...

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 8:15 PM, dh wrote:

...
On Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:28:08 PM Christophe Giboudeaux wrote:

...
...
Although no specific mention is made of repositories outside the core release, it seems to me that if we make upgrade recommendations...

------snip-----------

...

unstable:playground is not generally used as a testing ground as far as I am aware, it is used as a place for unstable or svn/git releases of software. Testing of major changes to software usually happens in KDF. So removing this doesn't much affect testing, rather it removes packages for people who want the absolute most bleeding-edge software even if it is buggy. That is really the target audience of unstable:playground.

My error, as Christophe and others have said, we have too many repos. As a regular "user" i sure have a hard time keeping track, which is why I used the suggestions from http://en.opensuse.org/KDE_repositories page to guide me.

...

So the question is, who is so careful about only using tried-and-true software that they rely on the previous openSUSE release, but still wants bleeding-edge, buggy, unreleased software?

those that follow the link "I want to..." "Get KDE SC 4.9.x from a relatively safe repository" ;-)

...

...
Is it being suggested that users should subscribe to non existent repos for a stable and up to date KDE4.9 system?

http://en.opensuse.org/KDE_repositories

"I want to..." "Get KDE SC 4.9.x from a relatively safe repository"

specifically suggests using the Unstable/playground repo as part of a reasonably stable KDE 4.9 system. (The kind of system you recommended I use at the end of your reply)

It is not saying that average users should use unstable:playground. On the contrary, it says right at the beginning:

So unstable should not be included in the recomendation "Get KDE SC 4.9.x from a relatively safe repository." I'm fine with that In my reading of the page, I accepted the last statement as being a final recommendation. The page as it stands (in my mind) makes 2 statements, use the unstable repos with caution, followed by a link to the "relatively safe" recommendation which appears to include the unstable repo as part of the suggestion.

...

Then it tells you later on which version of that goes with which SC repo (playground never has and never will have KDE SC packages). But that isn't a recommendation to use unstable:playground, rather it tells you which unstable:playground you need if you want it. unstable:playground has never been part of a "recommended upgrade path".

...
Perhaps we should re-evaluate that statement, but we should not remove the linked repository until the recommendation is removed or updated as well. We lose credibility as a community when we suggest users follow an upgrade path and they find nothing at the end of it.

That page is essentially is a list of all available repos and what extra repos goes with which core repos, so it goes without saying that if repos are removed then they should be removed from the list of available repos. That is not a major or difficult task, probably not taking more than 5 minutes, so it has no bearing on our decision here.

Thank you for your response. I have a better understanding of the unstable repo now. dh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Torgny Nyblom

18:55

On Thursday 10 January 2013 17.15.43 dh wrote:

...

Last I heard, 4.9 was current. It is part of the community recommended, "relatively safe" upgrade path.

A small side note: KDE SC 4.9 has had it's final release and will not recieve any more bugfixes, so any fixes will have to be patched at the distro level. /Regards Torgny -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

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Christophe Giboudeaux
dh
todd rme
Torgny Nyblom