Dnia wtorek, 7 lutego 2012 18:10:45 Yamaban pisze:

There is work to be done. Let's be constructive. What do YOU miss? What is THE roadblock for YOU on the way to great UX on KDE 4.x ?

Where do you expect such info to appear? Create a wiki page, and we shall answer (I hope). Otherwise, this question will only generate noise in inbox. I also wonder what happened to the voting mechanism in Bugzilla (that was designed to answer such questions). Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 18:30, Roman Bysh wrote:

On Tue 07 Feb 2012 12:10:45 PM EST, Yamaban wrote:

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On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 17:37, Roman Bysh wrote:

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On Tue 07 Feb 2012 07:06:42 AM EST, C wrote:

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On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 13:04, Křištof Želechovski wrote:

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http://lwn.net/Articles/479710/ <snip> Let's be honest: Where are we (OSS and upstream) still not as good as KDE 3.5.x was?

Hints: PIM (Kmail2, akonadi, nepomuk and consorts.) is our biggest detriment and roadblock to a "great" UX. <snip> Kmail2 and akonadi is being worked on so that it will be working for openSUSE 12.2. Yes?

[Start of Rant] ATM. the biggest trouble is the inconsistency in KMail2 and the non-availability of a working KMail1 in KDE 4.x to bridge the gap. I'm not interested in a Mail-app that forces me to re-index / re-parse my mail-storage every other week. That may work for a few Megabytes of Mail, but is not do-able on a netbook and ca. 3.5 GB of Mail-archives. Thunderbird, ( - is no longer the resource hog it once was, - ) does a smooth handling of version upgrades in it's databases. KMail1 was fine with some exceptions, but very work able. I do service work, and have to have access to the customer-data, no matter the network availability, which forces big local storage. Will Kmail2 and akonadi / nepomuk be fully usable in 12.2 with this scenario? I do not believe that. Will the situation be better than now (12.1) ? - For sure. It's a way of betterment. But it will not be "good enough" for me. Not with the problems that are inherent in akonadi itself (hello, storage disaster). Maybe the akonadi-console should be installed with akonadi itself. For easier (selective) disablement of akonadi (or parts thereof). Yes, I'm frustrated with the state of PIM. No, I do not blame openSUSE, nor the KDE people in general. I'll still invest private time (that is left over after RL) into the betterment upstream. But until a reliable working solution is implemented, I'll avoid using PIM beyond testing as far as I can. [End of Rant] Beyond PIM I'm pleased with KDE 4.x and the work to further this pleasantness. I'll stay with KDE 4.7.x until the niggles in 4.8.0 are done (I'll try 4.8.1). I am thankful for the work you all do. But please respect me if I stand by my opinion that PIM is more than just a niggle atm. It's a major obstacle, but it is worked on. Gnome3 is not for me, and I could not get comfortable with Gnome2. XFCE / LXDE is a little to minimalist for my liking. I'll stand by KDE. - Yamaban.

Am Dienstag, 7. Februar 2012, 13:32:33 schrieb Felix Miata:

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166565 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=204922

These are my favourite: The first one is about including an MC session by default. An MC session type can be created with a few clicks. Yet you want the developer to create it for you, i.e. spend his free time instead of you spending yours…nice attitude! The second one illustrates as well that you are as stuck with your opinion and attitude as you are with your list. Just re-try, i.e. open a konsole in KDE 4.8, pick "New Tab…" > "MC". Do this multiple times and log out of KDE and back in. Oh, I forgot. It won't work for you because you are still waiting for the developer to create that session type for you and do the four clicks plus typing /usr/bin/mc … Four years and you have not managed to create that session type and submit it to openSUSE or upstream. I guess that says it all. SCNR. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/02/07 20:54 (GMT+0100) Sven Burmeister composed:

Felix Miata composed:

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https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166565 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=204922

These are my favourite: The first one is about including an MC session by default.

An MC session type can be created with a few clicks. Yet you want the developer to create it for you, i.e. spend his free time instead of you spending yours…nice attitude!

The devs obviously had plenty time to discard the original Konsole and start over. Multiply a few clicks by multiple machines and multiple logins and multiple redos (discarding all of .kde/.kde4 because Factory updates not infrequently corrupt settings). Or just use KDE3 instead, which had it by default from the first day I used it.

The second one illustrates as well that you are as stuck with your opinion and attitude as you are with your list. Just re-try, i.e. open a konsole in KDE 4.8, pick "New Tab…"> "MC". Do this multiple times and log out of KDE and back in.

Oh, and I forgot, Konsole4 can't automatically remember what was running in which tabs on restart, the default KDE3 behavior.

Oh, I forgot. It won't work for you because you are still waiting for the developer to create that session type for you and do the four clicks plus typing /usr/bin/mc …

The dev is the one who eliminated it. Why shouldn't he be the one to fix what he broke in rewrite?

Four years and you have not managed to create that session type and submit it to openSUSE or upstream. I guess that says it all.

As far as I'm concerned, there is only one session type: KDE. Different workspaces are adequately handled by various virtual desktops (usually 6 in my case). It's simpler just to stick with what works, KDE3, than to get KDE4 devs to restore functionality they discarded during all that wheel reinvention called KDE4 that should have been called somethingelse v1.0 somewhere around claimed 4.4. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/02/07 15:29 (GMT-0500) Sven Burmeister composed:

Felix Miata composed:

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The second one illustrates as well that you are as stuck with your opinion and attitude as you are with your list. Just re-try, i.e. open a konsole in KDE 4.8, pick "New Tab…"> "MC". Do this multiple times and log out of KDE and back in.

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Oh, and I forgot, Konsole4 can't automatically remember what was running in which tabs on restart, the default KDE3 behavior.

You should read my email again – and maybe try it out as described before replying again. Trust me! :)

I'll do you a favour and skip the rest of your email until you sorted out that bit.

Don't hold your breath either. 4.8 isn't installed on anything here. 12.1 didn't have it, and no Factory updates or installations since 12.1 release have happened here yet pending 12.2M1 release announcement. Once that happens I still have to figure out what you wrote, since here are displayed non-US-ASCII characters amongst relevant parts of what you wrote. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/

On Tuesday 07 Feb 2012 15:48:17 Felix Miata wrote:

On 2012/02/07 15:29 (GMT-0500) Sven Burmeister composed:

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Felix Miata composed:

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The second one illustrates as well that you are as stuck with your opinion and attitude as you are with your list. Just re-try, i.e. open a konsole in KDE 4.8, pick "New Tab…"> "MC". Do this multiple times and log out of KDE and back in.

Oh, and I forgot, Konsole4 can't automatically remember what was running in which tabs on restart, the default KDE3 behavior.

You should read my email again – and maybe try it out as described before replying again. Trust me! :)

I'll do you a favour and skip the rest of your email until you sorted out that bit.

Don't hold your breath either. 4.8 isn't installed on anything here. 12.1 didn't have it, and no Factory updates or installations since 12.1 release have happened here yet pending 12.2M1 release announcement. Once that happens I still have to figure out what you wrote, since here are displayed non-US-ASCII characters amongst relevant parts of what you wrote.

Your KDE3 is broken and not displaying unicode, or it's setup to not display unicode. I'll plump for broken. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/02/07 21:55 (GMT+0100) Graham Anderson composed:

Felix Miata wrote:

Your KDE3 is broken...

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

You obviously skipped notice of the UA string in my email: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (OS/2; Warp 4.5; rv:9.0.1) Gecko/20111221 SeaMonkey/2.6 BTW, SM Mail here is using the default SeaMonkey charset: Western (iso-8859-1?; not utf-8), which normally is suitable for English language mailing lists (I don't subscribe to any others, since I neither read nor write other languages). It's not separately configurable for web and mail. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/02/12 11:18, Rajko M. wrote:

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 16:14:04 -0500 Felix Miata wrote:

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

You obviously skipped notice of the UA string in my email: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (OS/2; Warp 4.5; rv:9.0.1) Gecko/20111221 SeaMonkey/2.6 It doesn't matter what is your agent. Even in pre utf-8 times mail agent that forced users to switch trough few code pages to find right one couldn't be considered well designed.

Ummmm, could be just a bit of an overstatement here, Rajko :-) . Thunderbird, which is now at version 10, gives one the choice of using any number of character sets, including ISO 8859-1 - and I don't think that you could argue that Thunderbird is not "well designed" :-) .

BTW, SM Mail here is using the default SeaMonkey charset: Western (iso-8859-1?; not utf-8), which normally is suitable for English language mailing lists ... UTF-8 is used for English too, and with Linux it is default,

Is it really the default? I didn't know. There are at least 2 people posting here - and one of them I believe is an openSUSE employee using their internal mail system :-) - who don't use UTF-8.

so Warp 4 version of SeaMonkey is not suitable even for English mail lists as it has buggy handling of "Content-Type:" field. Which is not a big deal if user comes on idea to check encoding before posting complaint.

Idea to follow new development, even on distance of few versions, is not that bad.

With this I agree. BC -- Aspire to inspire before you expire. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/02/12 16:54, Rajko M. wrote:

On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 15:12:56 +1100 Basil Chupin wrote:

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Even in pre utf-8 times mail agent that forced users to switch trough few code pages to find right one couldn't be considered well designed. Ummmm, could be just a bit of an overstatement here, Rajko :-) . Thunderbird, which is now at version 10, gives one the choice of using any number of character sets, including ISO 8859-1 - and I don't think that you could argue that Thunderbird is not "well designed" :-) . Thunderbird (TB) is offering alternatives if automatic selection fails, but it sets character set automatically, and good most of the time. I can't recall problems with TB for a very long time, but I recall some old times where I had to change character set in order to read message.

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BTW, SM Mail here is using the default SeaMonkey charset: Western (iso-8859-1?; not utf-8), which normally is suitable for English language mailing lists ... UTF-8 is used for English too, and with Linux it is default, Is it really the default? I didn't know.

There are at least 2 people posting here - and one of them I believe is an openSUSE employee using their internal mail system :-) - who don't use UTF-8. You can override default settings, ie. UTF-8. Fonts, character sets and languages don't mix well all the time, so sometimes you can be forced to use specific combination. Other times you can have old understanding of code tables and set something that is not needed to be set.

Default in this mail agent is automatic. It will post new mails in UTF-8, and for answer to some email it will use character set of original mail. My answer to Felix is in US-ASCII, and I didn't touch character set selection. Check character set of this email :)

Rajko, sit back relax, take a large gulf of your favourite alcoholic beverage, or even take a large inhalation of your favourite brand of weed :-) , and smile and come up with a look of being contented :-) . Here I am concluding that you are still talking about SeaMonkey - "SM" - right? And also, as I think, that you stated that SeaMonkey is nothing more than Thunderbird in "sheep's clothing" (ie, SM is the continuation of the Netscape suite, which it is). I have been using TB and FF since year dot. In all this time TB has never had an "automatic" default of using a particular character set[##]. It has never defaulted to using UTF-8 for example. It defaults to Western ISO 8859-1. I have had to manually set the character set to UTF-8 in TB (and in FF for that matter[##]). [##] I have to admit that while I have been using both TB and FF since year dot, I have also used the same contents of /.moziilla and /.thundrbird since that year dot - from my earlier days of foolishly using Windows' version of both to then switching to Linux. BC -- Aspire to inspire before you expire. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/02/12 16:08, Rajko M. wrote:

I was talking about good designed mail clients and it seems that I didn't use any without flaws here and there.

I was wrong in assumption that Thunderbird is using automatic detection. I really never had problems reading and writing mails in few languages I use, but obviously I did not use Thunderbird all the time :)

It seems that Claws Mail is better prepared for multilingual correspondence and few other features that work better then in KMail.

KMail2 appears as over-engineered in some user interface elements, and under-engineered in other. Some will argue that it is modern design, but putting date separators in a threaded mode is "killer" feature. It makes threaded mode hard to use. Combined with immaturity of other solutions and bugs in KDE 4.7.2 it managed to be replaced, after many years, with simple client that is missing some features, but nothing that I can't live without.

Not so important for KDE list:

Oy! "Hallo there!" What's with this top posting-thing, eh? :-)

On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 17:30:05 +1100 Basil Chupin wrote:

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Default in this mail agent is automatic. This means program I was using to write that previous email and, as you didn't check mail headers as suggested below, it is Claws Mail.

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It will post new mails in UTF-8, and for answer to some email it will use character set of original mail. My answer to Felix is in US-ASCII, and I didn't touch character set selection. Check character set of this email :) Or you checked only character set :)

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Rajko, sit back relax, ... This is a public mail list and you should use a bit of common sense before revealing what your consider a good way to spend time between two emails :)

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Here I am concluding that you are still talking about SeaMonkey - "SM" - right? My bad. I failed, thinking that advice to check headers of previous emails will be sufficient lead to solve ambiguity of "this".

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And also, as I think, that you stated that SeaMonkey is nothing more than Thunderbird in "sheep's clothing" (ie, SM is the continuation of the Netscape suite, which it is). Well. I didn't state that :) Actually I didn't state anything as in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browser_timeline . Although, it is implicit in a whole discussion that SeaMonkey mail component can have some user interface similarities to Thunderbird.

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I have been using TB and FF since year dot. In all this time TB has never had an "automatic" default of using a particular character set[##]. Nice to know. I guess my bad (again). I checked and auto selection is off, so I hope I can take your word for that :)

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It has never defaulted to using UTF-8 for example. It defaults to Western ISO 8859-1. I guess English version.

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I have had to manually set the character set to UTF-8 in TB (and in FF for that matter[##]).

[##] I have to admit that while I have been using both TB and FF since year dot, I have also used the same contents of /.moziilla and /.thundrbird since that year dot - from my earlier days of foolishly using Windows' version of both to then switching to Linux. I was looking for /.moziilla and /.thundrbird, but there is none :) Obviously to much of whatever mean you used (from your advice to me) how to prepare for discussion takes its toll.

Is OK, I's still likes ya :-) BC -- Aspire to inspire before you expire. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/02/07 18:18 (GMT-0600) Rajko M. composed:

Felix Miata wrote:

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

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You obviously skipped notice of the UA string in my email: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (OS/2; Warp 4.5; rv:9.0.1) Gecko/20111221 SeaMonkey/2.6

It doesn't matter what is your agent. Even in pre utf-8 times mail agent that forced users to switch trough few code pages to find right one couldn't be considered well designed.

The point of my providing the UA string had nothing to do at that point in my reply with charset, but to the quote you did not requote, thus: >> Your KDE3 is broken...

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BTW, SM Mail here is using the default SeaMonkey charset: Western (iso-8859-1?; not utf-8), which normally is suitable for English language mailing lists ...

UTF-8 is used for English too, and with Linux it is default, so Warp 4 version of SeaMonkey is not suitable even for English mail lists as it has buggy handling of "Content-Type:" field. Which is not a big deal if user comes on idea to check encoding before posting complaint.

Charset support in SM is equivalent to that in TB at the same development level. I downloaded 2.7 (most recent across all platforms) several days ago, but have since had more important things to do than suffer through the risk, however small, of upgrading an "ancient" 3 month old web suite release.

Idea to follow new development, even on distance of few versions, is not that bad.

The problem is some old software simply does not have a suitable replacement. What ain't broke don't need fixin, which is the DOS software I use constantly, and certainly more than any other software. It works wonderfully in eCS (Warp 4 progeny), poorly elsewhere, and is here the #1 criteria for choice of primary DTE. The OS/DTE installation I'm using here to write this (as well as run DOS software) is about 10 years old, living through about 4 generations of motherboard/system upgrades - without breaking. Whatever the charset availability was that decade ago was what it was, and couldn't and can't be helped short of a new installation of a newer version (which is now about 9 months old), a sleeping dog I'm not about to kick. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/02/08 09:13 (GMT-0500) Patrick Shanahan composed:

Felix Miata composed:

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The problem is some old software simply does not have a suitable replacement. What ain't broke don't need fixin, which is the DOS software I use constantly, and certainly more than any other software. It works wonderfully in eCS (Warp 4 progeny), poorly elsewhere, and is here the #1 criteria for choice of primary DTE. The OS/DTE installation I'm using here to write this (as well as run DOS software) is about 10 years old, living through about 4 generations of motherboard/system upgrades - without breaking. Whatever the charset availability was that decade ago was what it was, and couldn't and can't be helped short of a new installation of a newer version (which is now about 9 months old), a sleeping dog I'm not about to kick.

BUT, it *was* that "sleeping dog" that raised the point (would better have been a pint) about the <quote> I still have to figure out what you wrote, since here are displayed non-US-ASCII characters amongst relevant parts of what you wrote. </quote>

and now complains that his dos/os/2 software WILL NOT be changed as it was good enough then and is good enough now.

If you are not interested in correcting *your* software to properly display properly formatted text, why did you raise the point, for the sake of argument?

I really don't know what you're on about. I don't use ancient DOS software to read email. As web browsers use the charset specified by the web page, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde/2012-02/msg00059.html shows me what Sven originally wrote, so I don't need to disrupt SM setup to figure out what characters he found it necessary to use that weren't derived from simple keystroking. SM's default config can display every displayable plain or shifted English keyboard key, which seems ought to be at least an adequate if not optimal config for an English mailing list. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 9. Februar 2012, 10:08:27 schrieb Basil Chupin:

I don't think that this is quite correct. You can specify in a browser the character set YOU want to use (Western, UTF, etc); and you can allow or disallow a web site to use its fonts and not the ones you have selected in your browser. At least this is so in Firefox.

mailnews.force_charset_override is maybe set to true in his mozilla web client. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/02/09 00:20 (GMT+0100) Sven Burmeister composed:

Basil Chupin composed:

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I don't think that this is quite correct. You can specify in a browser the character set YOU want to use (Western, UTF, etc); and you can allow or disallow a web site to use its fonts and not the ones you have selected in your browser. At least this is so in Firefox.

SM is same as FF. The default set specified in prefs is only used when the page fails to specify any charset. AFAIR, only use my fonts only applies to family and size, not to charset.

mailnews.force_charset_override is maybe set to true in his mozilla web client.

Needing that set is an indirect consequence of https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=217523 The problem is Usenet posters to English groups using Cryllic or other langs for which the font-size pref remains at the shipped default size instead of the size selected for the default charset. That problem took me a long time to figure out how to deal with. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org