8. Panel can be removed too easily. I right clicked on the panel and accidently removed the panel, now I cannot restore it. Tried to create new panel created it on top instead of bottom and without all the standard widgets. 9. Drag-n-drop for panel and widgets don't work. New panel created at top, not bottom, and there is no way to drag it to bottom. Left-click/mid-click/right-click drag-n-drop - all failed. Same problem happens with widgets on the panel - they not movable by drag-n-drop. 10. When new panel is created, KDE4 must ask if I want to create totally new panel without widgets or standard panel with default widgets. Currently new panel is created without any widgets. Reason: after accidential deletion of panel new users have no clue what widgets are needed to restore familiar (default) look-n-feel. -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Allright I have got some feedback, that sorted some issues. On the rest (unsorted issues)I will open bugs/feature-requests on the bugzilla. -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Opened several bugs: 9. Bug 415796 - KDE4 Usability: Lack of QuickLaunch configurability https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=415796 10. Bug 415797 - KDE4 Usability: Taskbar is single level https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=415797 11. Bug 415799 - KDE4: Screensavers are lacking https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=415799 12. Bug 415800 - KDE4: All tray icons have no transparent background. https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=415800 -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Martin: you might be right only about problem #3, the rest is still a PROBLEM. Too bad Dirk isn't here. Because I argued with him for about a hour at the last openSUSE-KDE meeting why KDE4 is alien to KDE users. He asked me to discuss all the usability problems of KDE4 on this mailing-list, but he himself isn't here :( -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 08 August 2008, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

Too bad Dirk isn't here.

I'm here, but I'm at aKademy 2008 (http://akademy.kde.org/) at the moment, and I'll get back to your messages when I return. Greetings, Dirk --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Hi All, I have not reviewed all the issues again, but what I know is that all the bugs that I opened in Novell bugzilla are now shown as RESOLVED,UPSTREAM What does it mean? is someone opening those in upstream KDE bugzilla, or that I must do it? -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

KDE4 Usability: Drag-n-drop for panel and widgets don't work https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=415802 This needs some more discussion, as it is a _real_ KDE4 usability problem. Well, Yes, after I learned from you to put my panel in edit mode by clicking on cashew, drag-n-drop really works in Taskbar *but* it is not intuitive. Much more intuitive would be either left-click drag-n-drop (like XP) -or- right-click on some icon in taskbar, choose a (non existing) option "Move Widget" and be able to move that single widget, like Taskbar in editing mode. (after clicking cashew) -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Torsdag 07 august 2008 13:44:25 skrev Alexey Eremenko:

7. right-click on Taskbar->Panel Settings - those settings are VERY poor compared to KDE3. I cannot set windows grouping on/off in taskbar settings, I cannot set if windows from other virtual desktops must be visible in my taskbar, etc...

Right click panel -> taskbar settings -> only show tasks from current desktop While the taskbar, and the rest of the panel including default widgets is probably the least configurable on any desktop in the world (xp, vista, kde3, gnome, osx...), that specific setting _is_ available.. ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Dirk wrote:

Thanks for your very constructive feedback and sorry for getting back to you so late.

Hi Dirk ! Let the discussion continue.

...

1. Using the taskbar - area near start button (kicker in KDE3 terms), there are icons to quick-start applications. I cannot add anything here, not by dragging from Start Menu (like Windows XP), and cannot right-click to add new application from start menu (like KDE3). This is very serious usability trouble.

it works for me by drag&drop and by right-click on an item with "Add to panel". why doesn't it work for you? what happens if you try to drop it?

Drag-n-drop (like in XP) would be nice. Nothing happens, just it doesn't works. (I think it's not implemented) "Add to panel" works. I have overlooked that somehow. My bad.

...

must also have: "add application" - either by manually typing command, or by selecting from Start Menu.

Okay, I guess thats an interesting request.

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=169522 Yes, this bug is important indeed.

...

1.a. Speaking of applets/widgets: "quicklaunch" for KDE4 needs to be integrated as another widget into KDE, instead of being third-party add-on.

where did you get quicklaunch from? I think it makes sense to package it if we haven't so already. Please file a bugreport about that at http://bugzilla.novell.com/

Here is it: - QuickLauncher Applet for KDE4 http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=78061&forumpage=2&PHPSESSID=cae Let's open a feature-request in Novell bugzilla ?

...

2. Task-bar: It has single level. In KDE3 or Windows XP I can have multi-level "thick" taskbar, not so in KDE4. In KDE4 taskbar can be "thick", but it will still be one-level. This is not configurable via "Panel Settings".

Correct, outstanding wishlist entry. I think thats already known, but I can't find it at the moment at http://bugs.kde.org/.

http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=163935

...

3. "Show Desktop" / "Minimize all windows": (aka "show dashboard" in KDE4 terms) - again - in KDE3 and Windows XP the "show desktop" can be used to minimize all windows, I use this very frequently, when I want to start new task on my desktop, without fully ending previous task.

Interesting. So your workflow is that you minimize all windows and then start a new application from the start menu?

I think thats similar to switching to a new virtual desktop? do you use that? Can you get used to that?

I have found it. Just an applet needs to be added, but it's part of KDE4. "show dashboard" is on by default on the place where KDE3/XP have "show desktop". Defaults are different.

...

BTW: Very good windows decorations were in the far past - SUSE Linux 9.1 (KDE3). Maybe we can replicate those, as on option (or default) into KDE4/SUSE 11.1 ?

I think you're talking about the suse2 window decoration. We have that as an addon package, but it is not in the default selection. if you install it, does that suit your needs?

What package name ? I can't find it.

...

5. Screensavers are lacking (besides "Black screen")

xscreensavers provide them. Otherwise this seems to be a pattern bug (kdeartwork4-screensaver not installed by default). Stephan?

"kdeartwork4-screensaver" package not found. "xscreensavers" is installed. Bug opened: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=415799

...

6. All tray icons have no transparent background. I mean - even native tray icons from KDE3 and KDE4. Known bug, we're looking into that one. OK.

Final point: Look: One lacking feature won't kill KDE4, but all the small things that are lacking makes KDE4 ugly and uncomfortable. I will try to make follow ups on the bugs. So far we spoke only about KDE4 The Desktop. Another problematic area is: KDE4 Applications. They are buggy too. (That's you KRDC4, ...) -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

...

...

it works for me by drag&drop and by right-click on an item with "Add to panel". why doesn't it work for you? what happens if you try to drop it? Drag-n-drop (like in XP) would be nice. Nothing happens, just it doesn't works. (I think it's not implemented)

Then explain please exactly what you're trying to do, because it works for me.

Well, entering taskbar edit mode by clicking on "cashew" button is not obvious. I would prefer just drag-n-drop, either via left-click or right-click. In KDE3 I can right-click any application-shortcut icon in panel and choose "Move button". This is much more human-oriented approach than "cashew" button (edit mode) in KDE4.

...

Here is it: - QuickLauncher Applet for KDE4 http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=78061&forumpage=2&PHPSESSI D=cae Let's open a feature-request in Novell bugzilla ?

Either that, or package it in the OBS and ask for inclusion :) This is another possibility.

...

...

Interesting. So your workflow is that you minimize all windows and then start a new application from the start menu? I think thats similar to switching to a new virtual desktop? do you use that? Can you get used to that? I have found it. Just an applet needs to be added, but it's part of KDE4. "show dashboard" is on by default on the place where KDE3/XP have "show desktop".

And you don't want it there because you assume that it is "show desktop" and are then confused that it doesn't behave the same way? Hmm, thats a problem.

Exactly. I was 100% sure that "show dashboard" must perform like "show desktop", because: a. It is placed in the same place where KDE3/XP have "show desktop" (i.e. near start button) b. Icon looks like "show desktop". (to KDE4 newcomers) c. My first intuitive reaction was: "What the hell... KDE4 is broken! " This default is very bad one - usability wise. What can be done about it? Change in openSUSE KDE4 defaults ? -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 28 August 2008, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

KDE4 Window decorations : Are there any beautyful decorations ?

Please don't ask open questions here :) Have a look at http://www.kde-look.org and report which ones you like better than our current default. Greetings, Dirk --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Am Montag 01 September 2008 19:35:31 schrieb Alexey Eremenko:

Additionally they lack the SUSE touch (lizard in title). If we want to include Window Decorations in openSUSE, we need to do some deep stability tests KDE/non-KDE/Compiz + add SUSE Lizard logo.

There are really more important things to work on than windeco. Sven --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Hi, I would like to be able to start the "Present Windows" composite effect by the side button of my mouse (button 9). In fact, I would like to be able to start any effect by any button I choose. Is this possible? Thanks, Danilo. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org