On Thu, 28 Aug 2014 15:21:52 -0500 David C. Rankin wrote:

Also, as asked numerous times, where are bugs supposed to be reported? I have reported a half-dozen or so here to the list, but I really feel they need to go to some tracker associated with whoever is building kde3 for opensuse. These little things need fixing before they accumulate too badly.

I'm very sorry to say, David… It seems, we (openSUSE) can't keep KDE3 in working state without "fresh blood" (if anybody still cares). Kyrill, I currently have no spare time and do not use nertworkmanager anyway, but Serghei Amelian has a fixed version of knetworkmanager-kde3? compatible with the current networkmanager (although some patches from our version may require porting there). If you want, you can try to ask him for the sources and package it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde3+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde3+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/29/2014 02:59 PM, Kyrill Detinov wrote:

Kyrill, I currently have no spare time and do not use nertworkmanager anyway, but Serghei Amelian has a fixed version of knetworkmanager-kde3? compatible with the current networkmanager (although some patches from our version may require porting there).

If you want, you can try to ask him for the sources and package it.

Ok I'll try pestering samelian. I pestered him enough when he was doing the cmake conversion with TDE - so it will be like Old times :) Seriously -- I know each and every one of you are as busy as I am. I also know we have to find some way to divide the maintenance of kde3 among interested users so that maintaining kde3 doesn't bury anyone or drive them nuts. I'm open to helping, I just need to know how you are building it for opensuse. After developing a TDE build environment from scratch for Archlinux, I know how much work is involved. Having minimal familiarity with buildservice, It seems to make sense that we could form a buildservice project and have patches submitted for consideration. I don't mind downloading srpms, but the kde3 source for opensuse has to be kept in some cvs/svn/git repo somewhere. That is what I would much rather work from just to get rid of installing/extracting srpms/specs over and over each time I want to browse code. What do you all suggest? -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde3+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde3+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday 29 August 2014 23:01:19 Kyrill Detinov wrote:

Kyrill, I currently have no spare time and do not use nertworkmanager anyway, but Serghei Amelian has a fixed version of knetworkmanager-kde3? compatible with the current networkmanager (although some patches from our version may require porting there).

Some time ago I started to implement a new knetworkmanager, but unfortunately I have no time to continue it. Maybe sometime... :) -- Serghei -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde3+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde3+owner@opensuse.org

I would actually like to ask more directly: Do we (meaning people like me, i.e. users without deeper programming knowlegde and thus lacking the ability to contribute to keep KDE3 up to date but who simply would love to have the possibility to use it) have to expect that the time of having this beloved WM available will soon come to an end? Of course this community is small (last but not least because so few people know that KDE3 still exists), and the packages which work become less and less with every opensuse release because it simply requires much more time than Ilya and others are able and/or willing to spend on this. Anyway, I need to know at some point what to do. My current operating system is outdated for months now because I fear the effects an update on the latest opensuse release will have on KDE3. But please Ilya et al, tell me/us if it's time to search for alternatives. And make a cutoff when it is clear that it is impossible to maintain a stable version that provides at least basic functionalities. Just my 2 cents, Carolin

Le vendredi 29 août 2014, Kyrill Detinov a écrit :

...

On Thu, 28 Aug 2014 15:21:52 -0500 David C. Rankin wrote:

...

Also, as asked numerous times, where are bugs supposed to be reported? I have reported a half-dozen or so here to the list, but I really feel they need to go to some tracker associated with whoever is building kde3 for opensuse. These little things need fixing before they accumulate too badly.

I'm very sorry to say, David… It seems, we (openSUSE) can't keep KDE3 in working state without "fresh blood" (if anybody still cares).

---

Hi All, hi Kyrill,

Who knows what is the windows manager used by SLE (if applyable) ? Isn't it a "son" of KDE version 3 ?

Thank you, Patrick -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde3+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde3+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde3+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde3+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-08-30 21:43 (GMT+0200) Carolin Liefke composed:

I would actually like to ask more directly: Do we (meaning people like me, i.e. users without deeper programming knowlegde and thus lacking the ability to contribute to keep KDE3 up to date but who simply would love to have the possibility to use it) have to expect that the time of having this beloved WM available will soon come to an end?

Yes, and no...

Of course this community is small (last but not least because so few people know that KDE3 still exists), and the packages which work become less and less with every opensuse release because it simply requires much more time than Ilya and others are able and/or willing to spend on this.

Anyway, I need to know at some point what to do. My current operating system is outdated for months now because I fear the effects an update on the latest opensuse release will have on KDE3. But please Ilya et al, tell me/us if it's time to search for alternatives. And make a cutoff when it is clear that it is impossible to maintain a stable version that provides at least basic functionalities.

Given all the recent comments from David Rankin on the opensuse English support list, and others here and elsewhere, I fear the practical cutoff point was already reached by the time 13.1 release was announced. IMO the reason so few people are contributing to openSUSE's KDE3 is because upstream KDE3 was forked, and many resources outside of openSUSE that might have kept KDE3 as KDE3 alive and kicking have been diverted to the fork. Since the fork is provided for openSUSE releases as well as other major distros, it seems like devoting resources to KDE3 amounts to a pointless dead end. It seems the only reasons to continue with KDE3 instead of the fork has to do with some combination of: 1-not having the fork available directly through openSUSE's own repositories 2-relative sloth of the fork's repositories 3-relative sloth of updates getting into the fork's repositories 4-relative sloth of the fork's web docs 5-not available from openSUSE installation media (something else is required to set the stage for installing the fork 6-inconsistent accessibility of the fork's repositories (few/no mirrors, excessive downtime) NAICT, all KDE3's own virtues remain in the fork, plus the fork gets the fixes required to work with the evolving foundations, such as systemd and the myriad of changes systemd has caused to X. I have Trinity (the fork) installed on a couple of test systems, and expect at the time I'm finally forced to give up on Evergreen and move to 13.1 on this 24/7 system that I will choose TDE instead of KDE3. Possibly that may ultimately mean skipping over 13.1 to 13.2, though with the plan for 13.1 to become the next Evergreen I expect not. https://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Documentation/OpenSUSEBinaryIns... -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde3+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde3+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/30/2014 04:01 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

Given all the recent comments from David Rankin on the opensuse English support list, and others here and elsewhere, I fear the practical cutoff point was already reached by the time 13.1 release was announced.

Here is where I disagree. I have done much to coordinate with Serghei, Ilya and TDE over the past several years. I see benefits in both. I think that opensuse/kde3 has taken the right approach to continuing kde3 with original sources and patches. TDE implemented a TQT application layer to provide a path of Qt3-Qt4 transition and avoid name collisions -- but that introduces a whole new level of complexity/incompatibility with existing applications. (that has stabilized, but the renaming effort drained a majority of the development resources for that project that could have gone elsewhere) Here, to make the builds more manageable and set kde3 up to move forward, it would make sense to draw a line in the sand and bring all maintained kde3 sources current at some point (incorporating all patches, call it 3.5.11) and go forward from there. That would eliminate build looking like: kdebase3-runtime-3.5.10.1-361.1.x86_64.rpm (build 361) The other need is to get the latest Qt3 from TDE (they are upstream now). TDE maintains Qt3 and creates TQt3 from the base Qt3 code. That would allow us to take advantage of the fixes in Qt3 beyond the current 3.3.8c. (I believe current is 3.3.8e)

IMO the reason so few people are contributing to openSUSE's KDE3 is because upstream KDE3 was forked, and many resources outside of openSUSE that might have kept KDE3 as KDE3 alive and kicking have been diverted to the fork. Since the fork is provided for openSUSE releases as well as other major distros, it seems like devoting resources to KDE3 amounts to a pointless dead end. It seems the only reasons to continue with KDE3 instead of the fork has to do with some combination of:

The real reason it struggles, not naming names, is that the kde4 team went to great length to kill kde3 to drive users to kde4 back in 2011 - even to the petty point of stripping most kde3 resources from the kde.org site. However, the two primary code bases (the original patched kde3 source, and TDE) are not mutually exclusive. They can benefit one another with direct one-to-one patch sharing, etc. (I do agree that the fork and renaming wasted a LOT of effort that would have been much better spent on a continuation of the kde3 code) It is not so much that it was wasted or spent in a wrong direction, but rather that the goals of the project have changed from what was originally envisioned leaving lots of the initial decisions and renaming effort less critical to what the code is now. It's arm-chair-quarterbacking at this point. Would things be done differently today if the project were started now knowing what we know now -- sure..

1-not having the fork available directly through openSUSE's own repositories

2-relative sloth of the fork's repositories It is a git repo 3-relative sloth of updates getting into the fork's repositories I have passed all critical updates from TDE to opensuse/KDE3 - sftp, etc.. 4-relative sloth of the fork's web docs Darrell Anderson has done wonderful work on KDE documentation. All documentation works in TDE. What is needed is the incorporation of the path changes so that existing kde3 documentation works in kde3 (most of it is there, there are just

We NEED 3.5.11 (3.5.10 + current patch set) to work from. path problems that make parts unavailable) Unfortunately, a majority of the documentation effort went into K->T renaming and reworking of images. The original kde3 documentation can work fine.

5-not available from openSUSE installation media (something else is required to set the stage for installing the fork 6-inconsistent accessibility of the fork's repositories (few/no mirrors, excessive downtime)

NAICT, all KDE3's own virtues remain in the fork, plus the fork gets the fixes required to work with the evolving foundations, such as systemd and the myriad of changes systemd has caused to X.

I have Trinity (the fork) installed on a couple of test systems, and expect at the time I'm finally forced to give up on Evergreen and move to 13.1 on this 24/7 system that I will choose TDE instead of KDE3. Possibly that may ultimately mean skipping over 13.1 to 13.2, though with the plan for 13.1 to become the next Evergreen I expect not.

https://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Documentation/OpenSUSEBinaryIns...

We need to continue kde3 for opensuse. TDE pulls in TQt3 which adds an additional level of complexity that doesn't add anything at the moment. In the event that TDE incorporates Qt4/5 through TQt, then a move to the fork is advisable. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde3+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde3+owner@opensuse.org

Hi David, I will take you at your word :-) As a matter of fact, I was very happy with 11.1 for a very long while - thanks to Evergreen - but then finally it was time for an update. Unfortunately with 12.1 then I had bad luck - no Evergreen support - I simlpy hate these short life times. Anyway, currently I am living with a KDE3 where a number of things that are really annoying, and i fear the will be more and more. The kmail IMAP issue which was the reason I joined this list 2 1/2 years ago seems to have been solved according to a mesage from Serghei some time ago, but I'm still not sure if it has actually been implemented. So, an I finally install 64 bit woithout running into this again? It drives me nuts that I have to go to nm-applet in superuser mode each time I want to use my mobile device or connect to an unknown wireless network. knetworkmanager is something I would consider as essential. The same applies to kpowersave. It took me ages to get the HAL-enabled version in 12.1 running, and still it seems that kpowersave is lacking half of its functionality and seems not to do what it should. The battery of my laptop is down after less than an hour although any energy saving option available is chosen, while in those rare cases I switch to Windows, I have a 3 hour battery lifetime. So I need something that does this job properly as well - does it exist? Best regards Carolin On Sunday 31 August 2014 01:52:13 David C. Rankin wrote:

On 08/30/2014 02:43 PM, Carolin Liefke wrote:

...

I would actually like to ask more directly: Do we (meaning people like me, i.e. users without deeper programming knowlegde and thus lacking the ability to contribute to keep KDE3 up to date but who simply would love to have the possibility to use it) have to expect that the time of having this beloved WM available will soon come to an end?

No, it will not die -- there are relatively minor issues that need patching/fixing to bring kde3 up to date. The only vexing issue right now is "User Session Tracking in absence of consolekit" which will break kde3 in a pure-systemd environment. As long as opensuse continues to provide console kit, that issue can wait until TDE implements a fix. (see: http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=1998)

What we have is a "man-power" problem. It takes significant time and effort to stay abreast of the libc and 3rd party library changes and developing patches for kde3. Thankfully, much has been done and kde3 is in pretty good shape right now. What is needed, as with any project, is users/developers willing to communicate and coordinate so that the work can be spread across a number of folks so no one person is drowning in work (real-world work and kde3 work)

...

Of course this community is small (last but not least because so few people know that KDE3 still exists), and the packages which work become less and less with every opensuse release because it simply requires much more time than Ilya and others are able and/or willing to spend on this.

I'll throw my hat in the ring -- what we need is to coordinate and setup a group buildservice project and provide access to those who want to help with patches, etc, but we need 1 person who has the time and technical ability to 'manage' the project and review/approve/help with patches, etc.

...

Anyway, I need to know at some point what to do. My current operating system is outdated for months now because I fear the effects an update on the latest opensuse release will have on KDE3. But please Ilya et al, tell me/us if it's time to search for alternatives. And make a cutoff when it is clear that it is impossible to maintain a stable version that provides at least basic functionalities.

Just my 2 cents, Carolin

Carolin,

13.1 with kde3 if fine. (well worth the update/install) I just moved 11.4 to 13.1 due to a dying hard drive and I have no complaints. Ilya, Kyrill and the rest have done a great job. There are just a number of normal bugs that need patching (as with any release) and we need to come together and decide how we need to coordinate this. I'm open to suggestions.

-- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.

-- --------------------------------- Dr. Carolin Liefke Haus der Astronomie MPIA-Campus Königstuhl 17 D-69117 Heidelberg http://www.hausderastronomie.de phone: +49 (0)6221 528 226 email: liefke@hda-hd.de ---------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde3+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde3+owner@opensuse.org