Feature changed by: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) Feature #307065, revision 3 Title: Terminate DVD image creation and only provide LiveCDs and Net Installs openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important openSUSE-11.3: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Stephen Kellat (skellat) Description: The discussion in openFATE #306967 relates to making KDE the default desktop environment for openSUSE.  The question of choice arises there.  A work-around to this would be to cease creating DVD images for installation and instead focus on LiveCDs and Net Install discs.  Parity across desktop environments would be possible in having separate GNOME and KDE LiveCDs while also promoting Xfce into its own LiveCD instead of its obscurity on the DVD.  As for Net Install discs, those are intended for experienced users so the rationale being exhibited in #306967 for catering to the needs of new users would not necessarily apply.  Net Install discs could keep an expanded desktop environment choice list. Test Case: User desires GNOME experience in openSUSE and downloads the GNOME LiveCD.  The kicker at http://software.opensuse.org would make the choice available to the user.  Other users desire a KDE experience, an Xfce experience, or an LXDE experience would also be potentially directed by the kicker.  ISO naming conventions would have to be adjusted to take into account the variety of LiveCDs possible. Use Case: Building LiveCDs decreases the amount of bandwidth to be consumed by potential users who would otherwise secure the DVD ISO.  SUSEStudio could be tied in so that project leaders who were so minded could offer refreshed respins on their own outside the normal distribution cycle. Discussion: #1: Stanley Miller (stan_qaz) (2009-08-01 00:50:13) Not having a DVD available is going to penalize folks wanting to install on a computer that doesn't have fast net access or has caps on the downloaded byte count. With the DVD you can go somewhere that does have a good connection and grab the DVD image and use that to install when you get home. Not having the DVD may increase the amount of data the servers have to provide, I download one DVD and install at least seven computers from it. If I had to do an install from CD I'd have to download the stuff I need that wasn't on the CD multiple times. If we had the "popularity contest" app it might be possible to see just how the download amounts would change. + #2: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-01 01:44:55) + This is a really horrible idea. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/307065

Feature changed by: Stephen Kellat (skellat) Feature #307065, revision 5 Title: Terminate DVD image creation and only provide LiveCDs and Net Installs openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important openSUSE-11.3: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Stephen Kellat (skellat) Description: The discussion in openFATE #306967 relates to making KDE the default desktop environment for openSUSE.  The question of choice arises there.  A work-around to this would be to cease creating DVD images for installation and instead focus on LiveCDs and Net Install discs.  Parity across desktop environments would be possible in having separate GNOME and KDE LiveCDs while also promoting Xfce into its own LiveCD instead of its obscurity on the DVD.  As for Net Install discs, those are intended for experienced users so the rationale being exhibited in #306967 for catering to the needs of new users would not necessarily apply.  Net Install discs could keep an expanded desktop environment choice list. Test Case: User desires GNOME experience in openSUSE and downloads the GNOME LiveCD.  The kicker at http://software.opensuse.org would make the choice available to the user.  Other users desire a KDE experience, an Xfce experience, or an LXDE experience would also be potentially directed by the kicker.  ISO naming conventions would have to be adjusted to take into account the variety of LiveCDs possible. Use Case: Building LiveCDs decreases the amount of bandwidth to be consumed by potential users who would otherwise secure the DVD ISO.  SUSEStudio could be tied in so that project leaders who were so minded could offer refreshed respins on their own outside the normal distribution cycle. Discussion: #1: Stanley Miller (stan_qaz) (2009-08-01 00:50:13) Not having a DVD available is going to penalize folks wanting to install on a computer that doesn't have fast net access or has caps on the downloaded byte count. With the DVD you can go somewhere that does have a good connection and grab the DVD image and use that to install when you get home. Not having the DVD may increase the amount of data the servers have to provide, I download one DVD and install at least seven computers from it. If I had to do an install from CD I'd have to download the stuff I need that wasn't on the CD multiple times. If we had the "popularity contest" app it might be possible to see just how the download amounts would change. + #6: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-08-01 16:26:05) (reply to #1) + The environment I support directly is a wide-ranging mix of Windows + 2000, Windows XP, MacOS X 10.4, and Linux boxes.  Against the matter of + having repositories on disc is the problem of keeping them current.  I + generally try to keep the machines running close to the same version of + Firefox and OpenOffice so users can switch between boxes with minimal + hassle.  Counting the updates required after a DVD install to bring a + machine up to current packages, I am still downloading a couple hundred + megabytes. + Improving the mirror structure may be useful.  I know there are places + in the world where fast broadband is non-existent.  I used to work + there: American Samoa.  By and large, they have a single T-1 connecting + the sixty thousand people in American part of the archipelago to the + outside world.  The best I could do there was dial-up clocking 23.2 + kbps with my telephone line strung between trees. + Whether you have the DVD or not is immaterial there as even downloading + the latest OO.o takes hours there.  Since it is a US jurisdiction and + notionally part of the First World thereby, this theoretically should + not be a problem but is.  The only way to get around such in their case + is to establish further mirrors and create logistics patterns that + work.  Focusing on making openSUSE a KDE-focused distro disenfranchises + peoples of the Pacific in places like Papua New Guinea, Solomon + Islands, Fiji, Tonga, Tokelau, Tuvalu, and others who are not blessed + with even as much broadband as the notional Third World might be + considered to have.  Only a ShipIt-style system or another alternative + in that vein would allow for growing the user base there. #2: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-01 01:44:55) This is a really horrible idea. + #5: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-08-01 16:17:45) (reply to #2) + Why is it really horrible? #3: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-08-01 09:53:23) This suggestion caters only to First World users with real broadband and Linux enthusiasts who have a DE preference - reducing our potential userbase to a subset of two groups at one stroke. + #4: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-08-01 16:17:28) (reply to #3) + I would say that that is a comment lacking in merit.  To say that it + caters to First World users already disenfranchises a significant cross- + section of that same First World.  Otherwise why would there even be + broadband construction grants in the American Recovery and Reinvestment + Act of 2009?  That is a red herring. + As for choice, presentation is key.  A simple way in terms of + psychology to turn somebody away is to present too many options all at + once.  The DVD does a great job of that relative to working at cross- + purposes with human psychology.  Somehow Canonical has managed to + survive and grow its user base without a ballot choice for desktop + environment on its discs.  While it is suggested that this would reduce + the potential user base, I can say that the way things are now is not + doing us favors either.  If I cannot stick my college-educated Windows- + using family members in front of the installer on the DVD and observe + them get through the DE ballot screen then there may be a problem + there. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/307065

Feature changed by: jimbo bigcreed (Dimble_ThriceFoon) Feature #307065, revision 8 Title: Terminate DVD image creation and only provide LiveCDs and Net Installs openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important openSUSE-11.3: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Stephen Kellat (skellat) Description: The discussion in openFATE #306967 relates to making KDE the default desktop environment for openSUSE.  The question of choice arises there.  A work-around to this would be to cease creating DVD images for installation and instead focus on LiveCDs and Net Install discs.  Parity across desktop environments would be possible in having separate GNOME and KDE LiveCDs while also promoting Xfce into its own LiveCD instead of its obscurity on the DVD.  As for Net Install discs, those are intended for experienced users so the rationale being exhibited in #306967 for catering to the needs of new users would not necessarily apply.  Net Install discs could keep an expanded desktop environment choice list. Test Case: User desires GNOME experience in openSUSE and downloads the GNOME LiveCD.  The kicker at http://software.opensuse.org would make the choice available to the user.  Other users desire a KDE experience, an Xfce experience, or an LXDE experience would also be potentially directed by the kicker.  ISO naming conventions would have to be adjusted to take into account the variety of LiveCDs possible. Use Case: Building LiveCDs decreases the amount of bandwidth to be consumed by potential users who would otherwise secure the DVD ISO.  SUSEStudio could be tied in so that project leaders who were so minded could offer refreshed respins on their own outside the normal distribution cycle. Discussion: #1: Stanley Miller (stan_qaz) (2009-08-01 00:50:13) Not having a DVD available is going to penalize folks wanting to install on a computer that doesn't have fast net access or has caps on the downloaded byte count. With the DVD you can go somewhere that does have a good connection and grab the DVD image and use that to install when you get home. Not having the DVD may increase the amount of data the servers have to provide, I download one DVD and install at least seven computers from it. If I had to do an install from CD I'd have to download the stuff I need that wasn't on the CD multiple times. If we had the "popularity contest" app it might be possible to see just how the download amounts would change. #6: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-08-01 16:26:05) (reply to #1) The environment I support directly is a wide-ranging mix of Windows 2000, Windows XP, MacOS X 10.4, and Linux boxes.  Against the matter of having repositories on disc is the problem of keeping them current.  I generally try to keep the machines running close to the same version of Firefox and OpenOffice so users can switch between boxes with minimal hassle.  Counting the updates required after a DVD install to bring a machine up to current packages, I am still downloading a couple hundred megabytes. Improving the mirror structure may be useful.  I know there are places in the world where fast broadband is non-existent.  I used to work there: American Samoa.  By and large, they have a single T-1 connecting the sixty thousand people in American part of the archipelago to the outside world.  The best I could do there was dial-up clocking 23.2 kbps with my telephone line strung between trees. Whether you have the DVD or not is immaterial there as even downloading the latest OO.o takes hours there.  Since it is a US jurisdiction and notionally part of the First World thereby, this theoretically should not be a problem but is.  The only way to get around such in their case is to establish further mirrors and create logistics patterns that work.  Focusing on making openSUSE a KDE-focused distro disenfranchises peoples of the Pacific in places like Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands, Fiji, Tonga, Tokelau, Tuvalu, and others who are not blessed with even as much broadband as the notional Third World might be considered to have.  Only a ShipIt-style system or another alternative in that vein would allow for growing the user base there. #2: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-01 01:44:55) This is a really horrible idea. #5: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-08-01 16:17:45) (reply to #2) Why is it really horrible? #3: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-08-01 09:53:23) This suggestion caters only to First World users with real broadband and Linux enthusiasts who have a DE preference - reducing our potential userbase to a subset of two groups at one stroke. #4: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-08-01 16:17:28) (reply to #3) I would say that that is a comment lacking in merit.  To say that it caters to First World users already disenfranchises a significant cross- section of that same First World.  Otherwise why would there even be broadband construction grants in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009?  That is a red herring. As for choice, presentation is key.  A simple way in terms of psychology to turn somebody away is to present too many options all at once.  The DVD does a great job of that relative to working at cross- purposes with human psychology.  Somehow Canonical has managed to survive and grow its user base without a ballot choice for desktop environment on its discs.  While it is suggested that this would reduce the potential user base, I can say that the way things are now is not doing us favors either.  If I cannot stick my college-educated Windows- using family members in front of the installer on the DVD and observe them get through the DE ballot screen then there may be a problem there. #7: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-08-03 10:55:47) As way over 80% of our users installing from the DVD (http://en.opensuse.org/Statistics)   (see "Distribution of installation method") this proposal doesn't fit the needs. The major argument for a DVD I hear frequently is the huge amount of software you get with it and this makes you pretty independendant from the internet. + #8: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-04 16:31:53) + terrible idea. +   + i like my kitchen sink distro's and i always download the DVD iso. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/307065

Feature changed by: Robert Davies (robopensuse) Feature #307065, revision 11 Title: Terminate DVD image creation and only provide LiveCDs and Net Installs openSUSE-11.2: Rejected by Andreas Jaeger (a_jaeger) reject date: 2009-08-12 14:57:48 reject reason: A nice way out - but not practical. Priority Requester: Important openSUSE-11.3: Rejected by Andreas Jaeger (a_jaeger) reject date: 2009-08-12 14:57:52 reject reason: A nice way out - but not practical. Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Stephen Kellat (skellat) Description: The discussion in openFATE #306967 relates to making KDE the default desktop environment for openSUSE.  The question of choice arises there.  A work-around to this would be to cease creating DVD images for installation and instead focus on LiveCDs and Net Install discs.  Parity across desktop environments would be possible in having separate GNOME and KDE LiveCDs while also promoting Xfce into its own LiveCD instead of its obscurity on the DVD.  As for Net Install discs, those are intended for experienced users so the rationale being exhibited in #306967 for catering to the needs of new users would not necessarily apply.  Net Install discs could keep an expanded desktop environment choice list. Test Case: User desires GNOME experience in openSUSE and downloads the GNOME LiveCD.  The kicker at http://software.opensuse.org would make the choice available to the user.  Other users desire a KDE experience, an Xfce experience, or an LXDE experience would also be potentially directed by the kicker.  ISO naming conventions would have to be adjusted to take into account the variety of LiveCDs possible. Use Case: Building LiveCDs decreases the amount of bandwidth to be consumed by potential users who would otherwise secure the DVD ISO.  SUSEStudio could be tied in so that project leaders who were so minded could offer refreshed respins on their own outside the normal distribution cycle. Discussion: #1: Stanley Miller (stan_qaz) (2009-08-01 00:50:13) Not having a DVD available is going to penalize folks wanting to install on a computer that doesn't have fast net access or has caps on the downloaded byte count. With the DVD you can go somewhere that does have a good connection and grab the DVD image and use that to install when you get home. Not having the DVD may increase the amount of data the servers have to provide, I download one DVD and install at least seven computers from it. If I had to do an install from CD I'd have to download the stuff I need that wasn't on the CD multiple times. If we had the "popularity contest" app it might be possible to see just how the download amounts would change. #6: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-08-01 16:26:05) (reply to #1) The environment I support directly is a wide-ranging mix of Windows 2000, Windows XP, MacOS X 10.4, and Linux boxes.  Against the matter of having repositories on disc is the problem of keeping them current.  I generally try to keep the machines running close to the same version of Firefox and OpenOffice so users can switch between boxes with minimal hassle.  Counting the updates required after a DVD install to bring a machine up to current packages, I am still downloading a couple hundred megabytes. Improving the mirror structure may be useful.  I know there are places in the world where fast broadband is non-existent.  I used to work there: American Samoa.  By and large, they have a single T-1 connecting the sixty thousand people in American part of the archipelago to the outside world.  The best I could do there was dial-up clocking 23.2 kbps with my telephone line strung between trees. Whether you have the DVD or not is immaterial there as even downloading the latest OO.o takes hours there.  Since it is a US jurisdiction and notionally part of the First World thereby, this theoretically should not be a problem but is.  The only way to get around such in their case is to establish further mirrors and create logistics patterns that work.  Focusing on making openSUSE a KDE-focused distro disenfranchises peoples of the Pacific in places like Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands, Fiji, Tonga, Tokelau, Tuvalu, and others who are not blessed with even as much broadband as the notional Third World might be considered to have.  Only a ShipIt-style system or another alternative in that vein would allow for growing the user base there. #2: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-01 01:44:55) This is a really horrible idea. #5: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-08-01 16:17:45) (reply to #2) Why is it really horrible? #3: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-08-01 09:53:23) This suggestion caters only to First World users with real broadband and Linux enthusiasts who have a DE preference - reducing our potential userbase to a subset of two groups at one stroke. #4: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-08-01 16:17:28) (reply to #3) I would say that that is a comment lacking in merit.  To say that it caters to First World users already disenfranchises a significant cross- section of that same First World.  Otherwise why would there even be broadband construction grants in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009?  That is a red herring. As for choice, presentation is key.  A simple way in terms of psychology to turn somebody away is to present too many options all at once.  The DVD does a great job of that relative to working at cross- purposes with human psychology.  Somehow Canonical has managed to survive and grow its user base without a ballot choice for desktop environment on its discs.  While it is suggested that this would reduce the potential user base, I can say that the way things are now is not doing us favors either.  If I cannot stick my college-educated Windows- using family members in front of the installer on the DVD and observe them get through the DE ballot screen then there may be a problem there. #7: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-08-03 10:55:47) As way over 80% of our users installing from the DVD (http://en.opensuse.org/Statistics)   (see "Distribution of installation method") this proposal doesn't fit the needs. The major argument for a DVD I hear frequently is the huge amount of software you get with it and this makes you pretty independendant from the internet. #8: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-04 16:31:53) terrible idea. i like my kitchen sink distro's and i always download the DVD iso. + #9: Robert Davies (robopensuse) (2009-12-10 17:14:11) + DVD image files are exportable via NFS after loop back mounting, which + makes my net installs & subsequent package installations far more + convenient. + The CD images have not in past support full range of installation + options, so this would likely introduce support problems, currently + only a few % of installs seem to be made by Net Install iso (according + to figures I read reported) on web site. + Having one Desktop environment pre-selected by radio button, does not + make it harder for user to install another environment like GNOME, it + simply permits the majority to make 1 less click during an + installation. + The SuSE Studio permits creation of XFCE install media very simply. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/307065