On Tuesday 08 April 2008 05:21:12 pm Kevin Dupuy wrote:

I don't know why they are given as normal options in the installer)

You mean "why they are not given as normal options". It seems, not to confuse new users. I would give a whole list with comments: -------------------------------------------------------- Most of the users use one of those graphic modes: x KDE x GNOME Some prefer: x XFCE new small, better for older computers x Minimal GUI with fvwm2 x Text only, if you know exactly what this means -------------------------------------------------------- This should be enough for everyone. I used expression 'graphic mode' instead of 'window manager' or 'desktop environment' as it fits fine in new Linux user experience, better to say lack of it. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 9. April 2008 schrieb Rajko M.:

On Tuesday 08 April 2008 05:21:12 pm Kevin Dupuy wrote:

...

I don't know why they are given as normal options in the installer)

You mean "why they are not given as normal options". It seems, not to confuse new users.

I would give a whole list with comments: -------------------------------------------------------- Most of the users use one of those graphic modes: x KDE x GNOME

Some prefer: x XFCE new small, better for older computers x Minimal GUI with fvwm2 x Text only, if you know exactly what this means --------------------------------------------------------

This should be enough for everyone. I used expression 'graphic mode' instead of 'window manager' or 'desktop environment' as it fits fine in new Linux user experience, better to say lack of it.

I must say I like it. How about you give us the ycp for it? And no, programming ycp isn't hard :) Greetings, Stephan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Onsdag den 9. April 2008 12:24:18 skrev Michael Loeffler:

For the KDE 3/4 discussion I see 2 possibilities then: 1. x Gnome x KDE4 x KDE3

2. x Gnome x KDE x KDE4, short description x KDE3, short descrioption This KDE4/3 dialog is only shown after choosing KDE first.

I personally vote for 2. as I think it's less confusing.

+1, would be great. Not offering both versions for easy installation would blow up in our face. No matter which one was made "default" half of users would be unhappy. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 1:03 AM, Felix-Nicolai Müller wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Martin Schlander schrieb:

| Onsdag den 9. April 2008 12:24:18 skrev Michael Loeffler: |> For the KDE 3/4 discussion I see 2 possibilities then: |> 1. |> x Gnome |> x KDE4 |> x KDE3 | I personally vote for one. No matter which option (1 or 2) is chosen, it has to be x Gnome x KDE3 x KDE4 as (afaik and iirc) the DEs are ordered by alphabet. And 3 comes before 4.

I think the first option give the end user more choice rather than click the KDE option to choose between KDE3 and 4. I personally vote for first option (I'm not a developer, just pointing this from my experience as end user :-) ) -- Best Regards, Masim "Vavai" Sugianto /************************************************************/ Blog (ID) : http://www.vavai.com/blog/index.php Blog (EN) : http://www.vavai.net Community : http://www.opensuse.or.id Commercial : http://toko.vavai.biz Email : vavai@vavai.com /************************************************************/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:46:47 +0200 Pascal Bleser wrote:

.... People with at least a bit of experience with Linux know that there's KDE3 and KDE4, and that they're not the same at all (certainly more in common as with GNOME or other DEs/WMs but still). At least I know that what I would expect from any distro is to be able to choose directly between KDE4, KDE3 and GNOME. Also, an additional step+click in the workflow should be avoided if possible, from an ergonomics' perspective.

I agree. Keeping the flow short and sweet is definitely the way to go, one of the most common complaints with 10.3 was that the install took too long and had too many steps (personally I didn't think so).

I don't to launch the debate again (at least not as a flame war), but the order *is* important. Using alphabetical order is an excuse. The reality is that what most people who don't already have a preference infer from the order of options there is that the top item is the "standard" and best supported desktop environment on openSUSE.

And please, please, please don't interpret this as a flame, as it isn't, but the openSUSE desktop environment survey showed that >70% are using KDE(3) and while it might still be a reluctant memory effect from SUSE/S.u.S.E. times, my gut feeling is that KDE is still better supported as of now (not to disregard the good work and heavy involvement of the GNOME devs and packagers towards openSUSE since over half a year). But, of course, I might be wrong :)

How about [ ] KDE 4 [ ] GNOME [ ] KDE 3 ?

Arguably, that order also goes from the least stable on top to the most stable at bottom. Not 100% sure that makes sense either.

I'm just absolutely certain of one thing: it's stupid to have political aspects (as it happened the previous time this question was raised, at least IMHO) being the reason to decide for one or the other. It must be considered from an honest point of view for the good of the end-users installing openSUSE. The option giving them the least headaches should be the #1 on the list, as it's most likely to be picked by those who have no idea what KDE/GNOME/XFCE/... is and just want to "try Linux".

How about [ ] KDE 3 [ ] GNOME [ ] KDE 4 ?

But clearly, I might be completely wrong here (except on the paragraph above), as I didn't use GNOME since years and haven't had the time to have a real shot at KDE4 recently.

I have always associated KDE with SUSE regardless of incarnation or spelling of the distro. There are also a lot of linux savvy people that also have the same association, unfortunately the media is getting pretty lazy nowadays and need a bit of help. I would certainly agree to have the order as: []KDE4 []GNOME []KDE3 This does give a bit of weight to KDE4 over it's older sibling, but that is kind of wanted (in my eyes). KDE3 wont be around for much longer, and I think it would be best for the KDE devs to have more bug reports on 4 than 3. Regards, Andy -- Andrew Wafaa, openSUSE Member: GNOME Team. awafaa@opensuse.org | http://opensuse.org/GNOME openSUSE: Get It, Discover It, Create It at http://www.opensuse.org http://www.wafaa.eu --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Kevin Dupuy wrote: | On Thu, 2008-04-10 at 23:46 +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote: |> I'm just absolutely certain of one thing: it's stupid to have political |> aspects (as it happened the previous time this question was raised, at |> least IMHO) being the reason to decide for one or the other. | | I agree, which is why I believe it is ordered by alphabetical right now. | |> It must be |> considered from an honest point of view for the good of the end-users |> installing openSUSE. |> The option giving them the least headaches should be the #1 on the list, |> as it's most likely to be picked by those who have no idea what |> KDE/GNOME/XFCE/... is and just want to "try Linux". | | I agree, but you know that we'll be bickering over that for weeks, so I | support keeping it the way it is, with putting KDE 3 in the "Advanced | Options" window along with XFCE, text, etc. That, I think, is a big mistake. Sure, having most people use KDE4 is much better for developers, as it means more testing and more bug reports. But that's to the expense of unexperienced users who don't know which one to pick. Is KDE4 really ready for stable everyday usage for unexperienced users, right now ? (I don't want to sound polemic -- as said, I didn't have time to test KDE4 a lot up to now, it's just that I'm under the impression it isn't quite there yet, but I'm honestly asking.. and of course, I might be completely wrong :)) Crashes and weird behaviour is the least thing we want a beginner to have. Because in that case, most *won't* be asking for help on openSUSE web forums, mailing-lists and IRC. Best case they'll switch to another distro and tell everyone openSUSE is rubbish, unstable, crashed all the time. Worst case they'll drop Linux completely, telling everyone Linux is rubbish, unstable, crashing all the time. (of course, *I* know the above is wrong, but from my experience, I believe it's quite likely to happen for a non negligible amount of newbies) So at the very least, KDE3 must be an option along side GNOME and KDE4, in whatever order. cheers - -- ~ -o) Pascal Bleser ~ /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill ~ _\_v FOSDEM::23+24 Feb 2008, Brussels, http://fosdem.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH/pZir3NMWliFcXcRAvJLAJ0YPKhUbkxc4ibfBqZ0HvWk9MncFQCaAu2h rtKgDJhjhzoBBrbCyaSQ6kA= =KMl3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 2008-04-10 at 20:19 -0500, Federico Mena Quintero wrote:

On Thu, 2008-04-10 at 23:46 +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

I'm just absolutely certain of one thing: it's stupid to have political aspects (as it happened the previous time this question was raised, at least IMHO) being the reason to decide for one or the other. It must be considered from an honest point of view for the good of the end-users installing openSUSE.

For the installer, your distinction between "newbie users" and "people already experienced with Linux" is the correct one, I think.

To make things easier, I think we can discard "experienced users" easily by acknowledging that *they* already have a preference, and while no ordering of the GNOME/KDE3/KDE4 options will make everyone happy, *they* (the experienced users) will know which option to pick.

Now let's move to the more interesting problem of "newbie users".

Linux newbies have no clue what "KDE4", "KDE3", or "GNOME" mean. As Benji Weber explained in detail in a recent blog post, the installer doesn't help them to make a choice: all it has is those arcane names, and a politically correct description which goes something like

GNOME: A friendly desktop environment that uses gfilemanager, gwebbrowser, and goffice-suite.

KDE: A friendly desktop environment that uses kfilemananger, kwebbrowser, and koffice-suite.

This provides *zero* information to newbie users about the choice they are going to make.

What if instead we made that screen in the installer be something like:

What do you want your desktop to look like?

+------------+ +------------+ +------------+ | | | | | | |GNOME screen| | KDE3 screen| | KDE4 screen|  | shot | | shot | | shot | +------------+ +------------+ +------------+

[Abort] [Continue]

Those should be real screenshots of our stock blank desktop for each desktop environment. Users will then be able to make a more informed decision.

[Feel free to reorder those screenshots in any way you please. It is impossible to discuss which desktop environment is more functional / stable / featureful / usable / etc. since they are all so large and similar.]

This would be interesting to all the desktop teams, because then *they* have the responsibility of making their default version of the desktop be as pretty as possible for the benefit of new users' impressions.

Federico

I like Federico's idea, although I don't think it will be completely sufficient in giving a newbie user the best choice. So, to add to his proposal... Pascal and I were discussing an idea earlier in IRC. One of the problems for a newbie is they don't know 1) which is the best choice and 2) that they actually CAN install more than one DE. For me, even though I am a GNOME user, I always install KDE as well and occasionally take a peek in KDE. I do think that many users will have some level of curiousity and want to check out the various options. So, with that in mind, I propose that under each of the graphics (or if we don't use graphics and stick with the current list format), we allow users to check multiple DE's. We do have this option currently. However, adding multiple DE's later in software installation is not straightforward. We should have checkboxes here. And we should leave the checkboxes blank so as to not imply a default DE. In addition, if left blank, there should be some warning (popup window?) that says you must choose something, even if it is the Text-only installation. This takes away from forcing a newbie to decide, and gives them the opportunity to explore further later on. These days, many people have enough hard drive space to add both. Bryen --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. schreef:

On Thursday 10 April 2008 09:28:56 pm Bryen wrote:

...

On Thu, 2008-04-10 at 20:19 -0500, Federico Mena Quintero wrote:

[...]

...

...

What if instead we made that screen in the installer be something like:

What do you want your desktop to look like?

+------------+ +------------+ +------------+

|GNOME screen| | KDE3 screen| | KDE4 screen|

 | shot | | shot | | shot | +------------+ +------------+ +------------+

[Abort] [Continue]

Those should be real screenshots of our stock blank desktop for each desktop environment. Users will then be able to make a more informed decision.

[...]

...

I like Federico's idea, although I don't think it will be completely sufficient in giving a newbie user the best choice. So, to add to his proposal...

I like idea too. Taking that there is graphical time zone selection this would be improvement in right direction.

[...]

I like this idea very much too, i was thinking the same..

...

So, with that in mind, I propose that under each of the graphics (or if we don't use graphics and stick with the current list format), we allow users to check multiple DE's. We do have this option currently. However, adding multiple DE's later in software installation is not straightforward.

We should have checkboxes here. And we should leave the checkboxes blank so as to not imply a default DE. In addition, if left blank, there should be some warning (popup window?) that says you must choose something, even if it is the Text-only installation.

I would not mention text mode as that can be choice for some that will be scared off, or laugh on us, what kind of Linux we provide :-)

No if they don't know, they won't pick it, but merely think: wow, a lot of choice.!

Maybe to default to all of them, if none is checked, with warning how much space is required.

This i would certainly do, because as someone who uses the systems, i am always curious to know how much room to calculate, warning is not the right word here, but i also cann't find the right one atm...

...

This takes away from forcing a newbie to decide, and gives them the opportunity to explore further later on. These days, many people have enough hard drive space to add both.

Telling how much space each installation requires would be good anyway. It can help people to see that difference is not that huge.

..and help them calculate on their partitions... -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.25-rc8-12-default x86_64 Current user: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) Alpha3 KDE: 4.00.68 (KDE 4.0.68 >= 20080402) "release 6.4" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Pascal Bleser schreef:

[1]http://konquefox.free.fr/images/screenshot_style_kde_big.png

This is a good idea, look and feel very clear... -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.25-rc8-12-default x86_64 Current user: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) Alpha3 KDE: 4.00.68 (KDE 4.0.68 >= 20080402) "release 6.4" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Pascal Bleser napsal(a):

Rajko M. wrote: | On Thursday 10 April 2008 09:28:56 pm Bryen wrote: |> On Thu, 2008-04-10 at 20:19 -0500, Federico Mena Quintero wrote: | [...] (replying to Federico, Bryen and Rajko ;))

|>> What if instead we made that screen in the installer be something like: |>> What do you want your desktop to look like? |>> +------------+ +------------+ +------------+ |>> |GNOME screen| | KDE3 screen| | KDE4 screen| |>> | shot | | shot | | shot | |>> +------------+ +------------+ +------------+ |>> [Abort] [Continue] |>> |>> Those should be real screenshots of our stock blank desktop for each |>> desktop environment. Users will then be able to make a more informed |>> decision. | [...] |> I like Federico's idea, although I don't think it will be completely |> sufficient in giving a newbie user the best choice. So, to add to |> his proposal... | I like idea too. Taking that there is graphical time zone selection | this would be improvement in right direction.

Hmh.. not sure. I think it is a very good idea and as Rajko wrote, given we have a graphical TZ selector, we can have screenshots here as well.

I'm sure you know I've already done that during Hack Week last year :) http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Installation/Desktop_Selection_Add-On Those descriptions have to be politically correct but, of course, it should provide a pieces of information that also a newbie user is able to understand. The current solution (openSUSE 11.0 Alpha3/+) presents a list of *Systems* not *Desktops* as we can't call minimal system a desktop environment. All descriptions are taken from patterns which are hidden under those-system selections.

But: * ncurses installer: We still have the issue for the ncurses installer, although it is much less of a problem there as it is used a lot less frequently (do we have any idea how many people use the ncurses installer ?) Either experts or people who don't have a supported GPU... in both situations, a simple list in whatever order will do, and possibly even with a preselection of the "text pattern".

Ncurses is better for remote installation, Katarina might have more information on numbers.

* tiny screenshots I don't know how large the pictures may be, but I'm afraid they're going to be really small, as I suppose it must fit inside 800x600. I doubt that'll help users make a decision as it'll be so small... they won't be able to see anything. Instead of a screenshot of the whole display, how about a zoomed one that shows a bit of konqueror/nautilus with a few icons and such (e.g. something like [1]) ? The best solution would probably be the possibility of clicking on scaled down screenshots to zoom them in a full-screen viewer window, but that sounds like a YaST/YCP nightmare (does it ?). [1]http://konquefox.free.fr/images/screenshot_style_kde_big.png

Screenshot browser could be a solution :) ;) see above. What about tooltips with system/desktop screenshots displayed OnMouseOver="ShowScreenshot('GNOME')" them? Just kidding ;) The problem with 'just one screenshot' for every system/desktop selection is that a tiny/medium screenshot doesn't say anything and can be reconfigured later quite heavily. What attracts users eyes are mostly colors.

...

| Telling how much space each installation requires would be good anyway. | It can help people to see that difference is not that huge.

Absolutely.

Absolutely tricky :) I can't image a simple predicting method that wouldn't require running a solver for every single listed system as the size depends on that (And on selected installation repositories (Hint: Add-Ons used during installation, OSS, NON-OSS, Media). Have a nice day Lukas

Katarina Machalkova schreef:

Hola!

...

...

any idea how many people use the ncurses installer ?) Either experts or people who don't have a supported GPU... in both situations, a simple list in whatever order will do, and possibly even with a preselection of the "text pattern".

Ncurses is better for remote installation, Katarina might have more information on numbers.

People who use ncurses installer might choose to do so for many reasons:

- It is usable even without X (and correctly working X) - It is better choice for using over the network (remote X has quite big communication overhead) - It is faster and has lower memory requirements - Graphic libraries simply do not belong to the server

For some numbers (not specific to installation in text-mode, but specific to using ncurses UI in general), please see the survey results page: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST_Workshop_Prague_2007_Day_1/YaST_ncurses_survey#Y...

frozenB.

This does not mean, that the installation itself does not stays as is? What this about now, as i get it right: How to let newcomers make a choice of their liking? (illustration about meself: When i installed SuSE first, Gnome was on top, and then KDE. I thought Gnome is the default, so i installed gnome. imediately after install i saw this was not my choice, and reinstalled to take KDE, to use it still.) A new install, is not hard to reinstall, there is no attachment yet. After some time i learned to let go, i don't 'own' things, just use them. My /home used to be a big mess, now it is small, and clean. Every 'newbee' has to become comfortable with linux, we should respect them, and treat them, as we want to be treated ourselves. We must help him/her to make the right choice, and than install a hell of a good system, which works, based upon his/her choices. Something i as newbee, very much like is, that the to be installed system, 'sees', what is allready there, and respect this, weater i do this myself or not. If i am a new user, i need to *Trust* the new system. This trust is gained, if my 'new' os, can 'see' what is already there. If i have some systems residing there already, i want them to run still, after i have installed the 'new' system. (my fears are: will all be allright afterwards?) The trust that comes from what i see the first minutes, determines if i am gonna install, or not. (an example: as a newbee, I wanted to install suns solaris 10. I didn't trust the installer for my installs already there, and i did not install. There was no clearity of what would come next, so i stopped the installation.) So: If i am going to install: where? If the trust is present at this point, the installation goes. I as user must know, that the new os *knows better what to do than i*, but respects my choices. and than : What. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.25-rc8-12-default x86_64 Current user: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) Alpha3 KDE: 4.00.68 (KDE 4.0.68 >= 20080402) "release 6.4" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008, Pascal Bleser wrote:

Rajko M. wrote: | On Thursday 10 April 2008 09:28:56 pm Bryen wrote: | > On Thu, 2008-04-10 at 20:19 -0500, Federico Mena Quintero wrote: | [...] (replying to Federico, Bryen and Rajko ;))

| > > What if instead we made that screen in the installer be something like: | > > What do you want your desktop to look like? | > > +------------+ +------------+ +------------+ | > > |GNOME screen| | KDE3 screen| | KDE4 screen| | > > | shot | | shot | | shot | | > > +------------+ +------------+ +------------+ | > > [Abort] [Continue] | > > | > > Those should be real screenshots of our stock blank desktop for each | > > desktop environment. Users will then be able to make a more informed | > > decision. | [...] | > I like Federico's idea, although I don't think it will be completely | > sufficient in giving a newbie user the best choice. So, to add to | > his proposal... | I like idea too. Taking that there is graphical time zone selection | this would be improvement in right direction.

Hmh.. not sure. I think it is a very good idea and as Rajko wrote, given we have a graphical TZ selector, we can have screenshots here as well.

I really like the ideas. But newbies may be very confused if they have to much choice.

But: * ncurses installer: We still have the issue for the ncurses installer, although it is much less of a problem there as it is used a lot less frequently (do we have any idea how many people use the ncurses installer ?) Either experts or people who don't have a supported GPU... in both situations, a simple list in whatever order will do, and possibly even with a preselection of the "text pattern".

I use the ncurses installer a lot. I do a lot of old systems. Also, I need to do installs from a local rsynced tree. It seems I always have to do them via a ncurses install to begin and then it goes to a graphical. I use NFS mounted directories. -- Boyd Gerber ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Freitag, 11. April 2008 schrieb Benji Weber:

On 11/04/2008, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

* tiny screenshots I don't know how large the pictures may be, but I'm afraid they're going to be really small, as I suppose it must fit inside 800x600. I doubt that'll help users make a decision as it'll be so small... they won't be able to see anything. Instead of a screenshot of the whole display, how about a zoomed one that shows a bit of konqueror/nautilus with a few icons and such (e.g. something like [1]) ? The best solution would probably be the possibility of clicking on scaled down screenshots to zoom them in a full-screen viewer window, but that sounds like a YaST/YCP nightmare (does it ?). [1]http://konquefox.free.fr/images/screenshot_style_kde_big.png

Indeed, the initial thumbnails would have to be so small as to be almost indistinguishable at their thumbnail size to fit at 800x600. Also I don't think that making the decision all about how the desktop looks in a screenshot makes sense. KDE[3] can be configured to look almost identical to any screenshot of GNOME. If the desktop argument is simply about default looks we could just provide multiple themes of KDE ¬_¬

True, but it would still give the dialog a nice touch I think - assuming that yast can scale images. Greetings, Stephan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 11 April 2008, Bryen wrote:

On Thu, 2008-04-10 at 20:19 -0500, Federico Mena Quintero wrote:

...

On Thu, 2008-04-10 at 23:46 +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

Linux newbies have no clue what "KDE4", "KDE3", or "GNOME" mean.

The more CORRECT and effictive way to name them would be

KDE4 (delelopment non stable) KDE3 (stable ) Gnome please your self there Pete . -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

I'm just absolutely certain of one thing: it's stupid to have political aspects (as it happened the previous time this question was raised, at least IMHO) being the reason to decide for one or the other. It must be considered from an honest point of view for the good of the end-users installing openSUSE. The option giving them the least headaches should be the #1 on the list, as it's most likely to be picked by those who have no idea what KDE/GNOME/XFCE/... is and just want to "try Linux".

How about [ ] KDE 3 [ ] GNOME [ ] KDE 4

From my perspective, As I spend a great deal of time teaching people to install and use software, I Would move to a menu or "screen" like the one done early on in which the choices were laid out left to right.

[ ] GNOME [ ] KDE 3 [ ] KDE 4 description description description People seem to be less likely to choose the first one if the choices are all on the same line. In the layout that I provide above. KDE4 is just as likely to get chosen as Gnome. The reason for that being that 4 is higher than 3. This layout invokes a sense of equality and choice. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Lukas Ocilka schreef:

* Not enough space for 'Other' possibilities as we have to support Xfce, ~ text-mode and minimal installation in the very same dialog.

Lukas

How about a second page, [continue to next choice] and a [back] button? -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.25-rc8-12-default x86_64 Current user: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) Alpha3 KDE: 4.00.68 (KDE 4.0.68 >= 20080402) "release 6.4" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 James Tremblay escribió: |>From my perspective, | As I spend a great deal of time teaching people to install and use | software, I Would move to a menu or "screen" like the one done early on | in which the choices were laid out left to right. | | [ ] GNOME [ ] KDE 3 [ ] KDE 4 | | description description description | | People seem to be less likely to choose the first one if the choices | are all on the same line. In the layout that I provide above. KDE4 is | just as likely to get chosen as Gnome. The reason for that being that 4 | is higher than 3. This layout invokes a sense of equality and choice. I agree. This is a good idea. Although having screenshots seems good too. Regards. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIAMXmNHr4BkRe3pIRCIt7AKDLVtaeZODUBJASkLrcTxlYHT52PgCgrHKW n8QRWkFQoNF8UfxHW7fZxRA= =RGON -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

James Tremblay schreef:

...

From my perspective, As I spend a great deal of time teaching people to install and use software, I Would move to a menu or "screen" like the one done early on in which the choices were laid out left to right.

[ ] GNOME [ ] KDE 3 [ ] KDE 4

description description description

People seem to be less likely to choose the first one if the choices are all on the same line. In the layout that I provide above. KDE4 is just as likely to get chosen as Gnome. The reason for that being that 4 is higher than 3. This layout invokes a sense of equality and choice.

Liberty, Equality, and Brothership. (just kidding. ;) Psychological seen, It looks realy fair to me. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.25-rc8-12-default x86_64 Current user: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) Alpha3 KDE: 4.00.68 (KDE 4.0.68 >= 20080402) "release 6.4" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. napsal(a):

On Wednesday 09 April 2008 01:02:10 am Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Am Mittwoch, 9. April 2008 schrieb Rajko M.: I must say I like it. How about you give us the ycp for it? And no, programming ycp isn't hard :)

Greetings, Stephan

Nice, I can try if you tell me where is current version ;-) I'm kind of busy trying out Alpha 3.

Dialog layout http://svn.opensuse.org/svn/yast/trunk/installation/src/clients/inst_softwar... Listed "systems" http://svn.opensuse.org/svn/yast/trunk/packager/src/modules/DefaultDesktop.y... Have a lot of fun :) L.

Hello, Rajko M. írta:

x XFCE new small, better for older computers

Or where speed matters. I started to use XFCE on a small PPC machine, as it runs there as good as GNOME/KDE on a decent PC and leaves RAM for applications (Opera/abiword/gnumeric) on a 128MB machine. Then I realized, that my Core2Duo with 4GB of RAM and a 256MB nVidia card is a lot faster with XFCE and never went back to GNOME/KDE again, except for checking KDE4 progress.

x Minimal GUI with fvwm2

It is IceWM now, AFAIK... Bye, CzP --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Richard (MQ) schreef: | Peter Czanik wrote: |> Hello, |> |> Rajko M. írta: |>> x XFCE new small, better for older computers |> Or where speed matters. I started to use XFCE on a small PPC machine, as |> it runs there as good as GNOME/KDE on a decent PC and leaves RAM for |> applications (Opera/abiword/gnumeric) on a 128MB machine. Then I |> realized, that my Core2Duo with 4GB of RAM and a 256MB nVidia card is a |> lot faster with XFCE and never went back to GNOME/KDE again, except for |> checking KDE4 progress. | | +1 On older kit, xfce4 just rocks. | | Though I must admit, KDE4 looks lovely... | KDE4 is just great. icewm is also 'cool', and minimal+sssuperfasssst... - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. ~ Besturingssysteem: Linux 2.6.22.17-0.1-default x86_64 ~ Current user: monkey9@AMD64x2-sfn1 ~ System: openSUSE 10.3 (x86_64) ~ KDE: 4.0.1 (KDE 4.0.1) "release 9.1" ~ OS: Linux 2.6.22.17-0.1-default x86_64 ~ Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@AMD64x2-sfn1 ~ Systeem: openSUSE 10.3 (x86_64) ~ KDE: 3.5.7 "release 72.6" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH/Q2MX5/X5X6LpDgRAmtDAKCVEculuSscQ00CcPUvq8oughl+RgCgyzAK Wx5u8bvARA9tQOoVsP97Q0U= =roMc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 08 April 2008 02:58:33 pm Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

Stephan Kulow escribió:

...

KDE4 is under hot discussion, not sure yet what to do.

Unfortunately does not work at all, konsole crashes and if you open f.e amarok and do nothing with it, then your CPU is done, both the amarok process and one called knotify4 owns you.

It is in sorry state :-(

Konsole is finally fixed in Factory. I got no time to test the rest. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 10:13 PM, Oddball wrote:

Stephan Kulow schreef:

...

KDE4 is under hot discussion, not sure yet what to do.

I'm sure I forgot tons of things, right now we see really a lot of changes.

Greetings, Stephan

KDE4 realy rocks, almost nothing crashes anymore, the new features added, regress sometimes, but get fixed real quick. It is very quick, also installing and downloading is much much better than i had ever believed was possible in such a short time. I never use kde3 anymore. If the building and fixing continues at this speed, i expect to be presentable at launch time. If i had to choose, i would not back off, but bite trough.

It is realy beautifull, and flexible, good job so far. ;)

Good for you. Unfortunately for me, the current quality of KDE4 means skipping openSUSE 11.0 altogether, going from 10.3->11.1. -- -Alexey Eremenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 08/04/2008, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 10:13 PM, Oddball wrote:

...

It is realy beautifull, and flexible, good job so far. ;)

Good for you.

Unfortunately for me, the current quality of KDE4 means skipping openSUSE 11.0 altogether, going from 10.3->11.1.

Why won't you just use KDE3 in openSUSE 11.0? Kind thoughts, -- Francis Giannaros http://francis.giannaros.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 2:28 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

Is it aimed at the current openSUSE users, in which case this many worded and bloated discussion about what to display and where is a TOTAL waste of space and time because 'you' are talking to those who already know openSUSE and don't need directions, or is it aimed at the "newbie", the Windows et alia, user who is likely to switch over to openSUSE (Linux generally)?

Just to mention from my experience like what Basil Chupin described above. I'd rather encourage newbie user (or everyone that never touch Linux / openSUSE before) to used openSUSE LiveCD than use standard installation CD. openSUSE liveCD provided a short instruction (about 6 steps) compared to standard installation CD. and it's fairly clear even for newbie user. -- Best Regards, Masim "Vavai" Sugianto /************************************************************/ Blog (ID) : http://www.vavai.com/blog/index.php Blog (EN) : http://www.vavai.net Community : http://www.opensuse.or.id /************************************************************/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2008/04/11 17:28 (GMT+1000) Basil Chupin apparently typed:

Why are the icons on the desktop by default 48 pixels big? 22 pixels is the right size - and if too small for the user then the user can adjust the size upwards.)

Is that on 800x600 resolution? At decent resolution 48px looks to me somewhere between too small and just right: http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/icons-48px-desktop-suse110-1920x1440x144.jpg -- "Either the constitution controls the judges, or the judges rewrite the constitution." Judge Robert Bork Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin schreef:

Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2008/04/11 17:28 (GMT+1000) Basil Chupin apparently typed:

...

Why are the icons on the desktop by default 48 pixels big? 22 pixels is the right size - and if too small for the user then the user can adjust the size upwards.)

Is that on 800x600 resolution? At decent resolution 48px looks to me somewhere between too small and just right

No, this is at a resolution of 1680x1050 (which is what I have) and above (1920x1200 as used by a friend of mine).

Ciao.

I agree hearthfully on this: The ICONS ARE TOO BIG! KDE4 the are even bigger, and the recent smaller ones ar too big also. The desktop is what you are looking at: You'll have to like it, or adjust it to your likings. So it *has* to be adjustable. Make them smaller, and adjustable up and downwards, to fit the resolutions of the monitors around, these days. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.25-rc8-12-default x86_64 Current user: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) Alpha3 KDE: 4.00.68 (KDE 4.0.68 >= 20080402) "release 6.4" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

On 2008/04/11 11:45 (GMT+0200) Oddball apparently typed:

...

Basil Chupin schreef:

...

...

Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

...

On 2008/04/11 17:28 (GMT+1000) Basil Chupin apparently typed:

...

...

...

...

Why are the icons on the desktop by default 48 pixels big? 22 pixels is the right size - and if too small for the user then the user can adjust the size upwards.)

...

...

...

Is that on 800x600 resolution? At decent resolution 48px looks to me somewhere between too small and just right

...

...

No, this is at a resolution of 1680x1050 (which is what I have) and above (1920x1200 as used by a friend of mine).

...

I agree hearthfully on this: The ICONS ARE TOO BIG! KDE4 the are even bigger, and the recent smaller ones ar too big also. The desktop is what you are looking at: You'll have to like it, or adjust it to your likings. So it *has* to be adjustable. Make them smaller, and adjustable up and downwards, to fit the resolutions of the monitors around, these days.

The title text for the icons seems tied to the icon size. As you can see on http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/icons-48px-desktop-suse110-1920x1440x144.jpg it is impossible with the amount of text allocated to 48px icons to distinguish between the various shares shown on the desktop. IOW, the icons are too small.

Better for usability reasons to start bigger rather than smaller, because if smaller to start with, it's harder to reconfigure.

What? If you can configure them to be smaller you can configure them to be bigger! And the text under them is NOT connected to how big the icons are. You ARE using openSUSE when you are making these statements aren't you? Ciao. -- The sex was so good that even the neighbours had a cigarette. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

On 2008/04/11 21:42 (GMT+1000) Basil Chupin apparently typed:

...

Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

The title text for the icons seems tied to the icon size. As you can see on http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/icons-48px-desktop-suse110-1920x1440x144.jpg it is impossible with the amount of text allocated to 48px icons to distinguish between the various shares shown on the desktop. IOW, the icons are too small.

...

...

Better for usability reasons to start bigger rather than smaller, because if smaller to start with, it's harder to reconfigure.

...

If you can configure them to be smaller you can configure them to be bigger!

Only in theory. In general, when things are too small to start with, it can be difficult or impossible to navigate through settings in order to make things big enough to see. Not everyone has the visual acuity of the 18 year olds who design web sites overwhelmed with content text smaller than browser UI text.

As far as I am concerned - and I have been known to be wrong! :-) - the icons one sees on the Desktop, or even in the quicklaunch taskbar the size of which you can configure, have nothing to do with those you see when one selects gecko/(START) and in the options shown there. Changing the size of the icons on the Desktop does not alter the size of other icons anywhere else. But, as I said, I may be wrong because I do not a system where I have not changed the icon size to 22 pixels.

...

And the text under them is NOT connected to how big the icons are.

After some experimenting I see this is true, and in KDE3 at least, that as DPI goes up, the relative allocation for the text goes down, since that space is allocated in px instead of in pt. Hopefully this is something fixed in KDE4.

Nothing to do with DPI. All to do with the font size. gecko>Configure Desktop>Appearance and Themes>Fonts and alter the size of the appropriate font (I don't remember which one is the one used for the description of the Desktop icon).

...

You ARE using openSUSE when you are making these statements aren't you?

Sorry if I assumed you could tell that from the screenshot. It used to be that the titlebars in SUSE's default theme included the head of the SUSE mascot, but now I see in Factory that is missing.

Not your fault really - I should have looked a lot closer than I did :-) . (As I mentioned elsewhere, I am trying to get a friend install openSUSE and there I am not too sure if he has KDE installed or GNOME from some of the things he is mentioning/asking :-) .) Ciao. -- The sex was so good that even the neighbours had a cigarette. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Greetings Stephan,

Today (my time) is Friday, 11 April, so I have all the msgs so far in response to your original msg (above).

Let me make a small contribution to this discussion.

Your contribution is offtopic. It doesn't relate to any of the topics from the original post, not even slightly. The thread talks about factory status, kde4 discussion and selection of environments during installation and yours have nothing to do with neither, only idiotic comments about the list being "narrow minded" and that the correct size of icons is 22 pixels. My guess is that you are cleverly trying to spam the discussion to turn it into trollage, since you already has a history of trolling in this list, and making a whole pointless discussion that drifts away from the topic. Why are you doing this? I guess its because you think nobody would point that, so you could continue trolling. I think you are being annoying and off-topic on purpose, but you think its ok, because you are on the "edge", so nobody can tell if you are a troll or just someone making silly comments, not on purpose, which would be the general assumption. Cant really say you havent been successful, since there are already 2 replies to your message, seems soon more will follow, and they are all offtopic with the thread. Why are you trying to create noise and offtopic in the list threads? You think nobody is checking your smart trollage? Marcio --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Why don't you expand your tiny brain and read, and comprehend, what has been written in the thread.

stop trolling, troll Marcio --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

<lots of offtopic nonsense deleted>

So, which are you?

Basil, you are a troll trolling in opensuse lists, its been a while. Why don't you leave all the lists and stop wasting our time? Go mandriva, for example. Stop the nonsense Marcio --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Sid Boyce wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Hi,

This week we had base system freeze and heading towards Beta1 next week.

For this we mastered DVDs named Alpha3plus that we use for internal testing of the installation workflow and some media layout - to avoid bad suprises with beta1.

So far it looks really, really good - I found only one critical (already fixed) and two minor problems.

The DVDs are now based on images - meaning they install in record time, but this creates currently some problems for factory users. I plan to create a more detailed blog about this feature tomorrow.

Also the autoconfiguration feature is tested for the first time and the live installer saw some fixes, so we hope to finalize the "only DVDs and live CDs" strategy with beta1.

KDE4 is under hot discussion, not sure yet what to do.

I'm sure I forgot tons of things, right now we see really a lot of changes.

Greetings, Stephan

Greetings Stephan,

Today (my time) is Friday, 11 April, so I have all the msgs so far in response to your original msg (above).

Let me make a small contribution to this discussion.

I am helping a friend, who has known nothing but Windows all his life, to use openSUSE. This help is being done over a large distance using nothing but e-mails. A long and dragged-out process.

His constant complaint is that openSUSE is far harder to install - and upgrade/update - than Windows. In Windows, as he expressed, you simply double-click on an .exe file -- and it is installed.

Similar comment was made about the actual installation process: boot the CD, answer a few questions and the whole sheebang gets installed (without going thru the boring questions of which desktop you want, do you accept the suggested partitioning configuration, and so on).

Forget about the by-now biased and narrow-minded thinking of the openSUSE "brigade" in this mail-list and go for the way the Windows' users are used to after all the years.

Who is openSUSE aimed at?

Is it aimed at the current openSUSE users, in which case this many worded and bloated discussion about what to display and where is a TOTAL waste of space and time because 'you' are talking to those who already know openSUSE and don't need directions, or is it aimed at the "newbie", the Windows et alia, user who is likely to switch over to openSUSE (Linux generally)?

If the latter then make the installation similar to what they are all used to- the way Windows does it.

There is no shame in this.

(To be honest, one of the things that makes me shudder everytime is the EGA-type graphics-approach to the menus displayed when one installs openSUSE, and then to see those oversized icons on the desktop when the system is finally installed and you 'boot' into it. It all looks SO amateurish, so "kids' stuff".

Why are the icons on the desktop by default 48 pixels big? 22 pixels is the right size - and if too small for the user then the user can adjust the size upwards.)

One other thing - and this is NOT meant to be offensive to anyone.

There have been some comments made here about the wording of the error messages.

These error messages can *VERY loosely* be compared to the instructions one often gets with products made in China, and previously in Japan.

The problem here is that there is a language translation problem.

Perhaps the error messages, and whatever, should be looked at by someone who is a competent translator for the language being used in a language-specific version of openSUSE?

(No offense was meant to anyone in the above, but there needs to be some attention paid to the complaints of those who are trying to use openSUSE for the first time.)

Ciao.

As it's "open"SUSE anyone can make contributions if it is felt that it falls short. The Linux way is to offer choice. I know if some people have 6 shirts, choosing one can be lead to confusion. Once the distro is set up, either by one's own efforts or help of others, it's solid and simply calling it "amateurish" and "kids' stuff" is blowing hot air. People who have for decades cheerily put up with Windows viruses, malware, spyware, crashes, lost work and other ills, still proudly sing it's virtues of ease, professionally done, etc. Lack of choice is also seen as a virtue. Linux is easy to install and use, lots have done it, are still doing it and are quite happy with what it offers. I have newbies using Linux that I've installed for them and I hardly get any queries, sometimes they discover things I am not aware of. Last week one user had a problem with sound which at first I thought may have been caused when he did an automatic update to 10.3, however, it turned out to be a faulty on-board sound chip, he ordered a new sound card, I disabled the on-board sound, popped the new card in, sorted the mixer volumes and he was on his way - the only problem he has had since openSUSE 10.0 was installed. The calls I get are mostly Windows and the users are clueless. Change a motherboard, sound card, networking and most of them run into problems. Error messages in any OS are cryptic, even to seasoned Windows users and often the cure to all problems is to wipe the Windows hard drive and reinstall. Right now my brother has a problem where everything was working normally after a couple of visits from Packard Bell to reinstall XP, now suddenly using his webcam in skype brings the whole box crashing down. Imagine the rukus that would cause from a user of openSUSE, but such things are an acceptable happening in Windows. To hold Windows up as a beacon is laughable. Linux is not Windows, it's different to Windows and the openSUSE team does a great job at providing us with a very stable and usable platform that is free of pollutants, the minor effort is getting to know it. If that's too much for a newbie, then they are free to get something else that does all the thinking for them and possesses the same tawdry look wherever you see it. Now I have to return a call left on my answering machine earlier - yet another Windows problem. Regards Sid.

Someone came up with the brilliant idea of having thumbnails showing which Desktops are available for installation - love it. Following on re this idea have a look at this which I accidentally came across earlier today while fooling around with the second computer: http://www.mandriva.com/en/product/mandriva-linux-one and then to see the sort of screens a newbie used to Windows now expects from a distro when installing it download the LIVE CD file called mandrake-linux-2008-one-KDE-cdrom-i586 (694M) at this location: http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/carroll.cac.psu.edu/MandrivaLinux/officia... In what you state above there is this recurring theme used by others where the flaws of Windows are always mentioned as if they were a justification for not trying to improve how, say, our own preferred distro, openSUSE, is installed and how it looks. Who gives a damn about Windows? I don't. But I did mention with respect to the way those who have been raised on Windows, and have a Windows mentality, want to see a distro look/behave when they go about installing it for the first time. To quote you from above, "I have newbies using Linux that *I'VE INSTALLED FOR THEM* [my emphasis]". And here is the bottom line about what is being discussed in this thread (at least the way I see it): how best to make it easier for people to install openSUSE and make it easier for them to make decisions about the more appropriate for them features. Look at the URLs I provided above and tell me how,say, the first one compares to what is showing on the Novell site (at least the last time I looked, months ago). (Now, I have a strong feeling that there will be a statement made sooner or later that to be able to present openSUSE along the lines, or preferably better, of what, say, you see for Mandriva (above), there is no programmer available because all are too busy to do any more than they are currently doing. I understand this and I really sympathise with everyone involved with openSUSE. But then I have to say that if there is money available to employ a Community Manager then there should be money found to employ a programmer to help all the others, now busting their guts on openSUSE, in implementing any changes which would benefit the distro in the short to medium term - and beyond.) Ciao. -- The sex was so good that even the neighbours had a cigarette. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

On Friday 11 April 2008 11:34:41 pm Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Someone came up with the brilliant idea of having thumbnails showing which Desktops are available for installation - love it.

Following on re this idea have a look at this which I accidentally came across earlier today while fooling around with the second computer:

http://www.mandriva.com/en/product/mandriva-linux-one

After few tries I have download now. Is this sounds familiar? I guess yes.

Though the idea to use graphic and text on download page is good. Current seems to be functional, but it could be better with graphic and screenshots, but not only default background.

I am not sure if you have downloaded the Live CD and your comments are relating to the way Mandriva "installs" in the Live mode or whether you are commenting about the information about Mandriva shown on the */mandriva-linux-one" URL mentioned above. Ciao. -- The sex was so good that even the neighbours had a cigarette. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote:

Sid Boyce wrote:

...

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Hi,

This week we had base system freeze and heading towards Beta1 next week.

For this we mastered DVDs named Alpha3plus that we use for internal testing of the installation workflow and some media layout - to avoid bad suprises with beta1.

So far it looks really, really good - I found only one critical (already fixed) and two minor problems.

The DVDs are now based on images - meaning they install in record time, but this creates currently some problems for factory users. I plan to create a more detailed blog about this feature tomorrow.

Also the autoconfiguration feature is tested for the first time and the live installer saw some fixes, so we hope to finalize the "only DVDs and live CDs" strategy with beta1.

KDE4 is under hot discussion, not sure yet what to do.

I'm sure I forgot tons of things, right now we see really a lot of changes.

Greetings, Stephan

Greetings Stephan,

Today (my time) is Friday, 11 April, so I have all the msgs so far in response to your original msg (above).

Let me make a small contribution to this discussion.

I am helping a friend, who has known nothing but Windows all his life, to use openSUSE. This help is being done over a large distance using nothing but e-mails. A long and dragged-out process.

His constant complaint is that openSUSE is far harder to install - and upgrade/update - than Windows. In Windows, as he expressed, you simply double-click on an .exe file -- and it is installed.

Similar comment was made about the actual installation process: boot the CD, answer a few questions and the whole sheebang gets installed (without going thru the boring questions of which desktop you want, do you accept the suggested partitioning configuration, and so on).

Forget about the by-now biased and narrow-minded thinking of the openSUSE "brigade" in this mail-list and go for the way the Windows' users are used to after all the years.

Who is openSUSE aimed at?

Is it aimed at the current openSUSE users, in which case this many worded and bloated discussion about what to display and where is a TOTAL waste of space and time because 'you' are talking to those who already know openSUSE and don't need directions, or is it aimed at the "newbie", the Windows et alia, user who is likely to switch over to openSUSE (Linux generally)?

If the latter then make the installation similar to what they are all used to- the way Windows does it.

There is no shame in this.

(To be honest, one of the things that makes me shudder everytime is the EGA-type graphics-approach to the menus displayed when one installs openSUSE, and then to see those oversized icons on the desktop when the system is finally installed and you 'boot' into it. It all looks SO amateurish, so "kids' stuff".

Why are the icons on the desktop by default 48 pixels big? 22 pixels is the right size - and if too small for the user then the user can adjust the size upwards.)

One other thing - and this is NOT meant to be offensive to anyone.

There have been some comments made here about the wording of the error messages.

These error messages can *VERY loosely* be compared to the instructions one often gets with products made in China, and previously in Japan.

The problem here is that there is a language translation problem.

Perhaps the error messages, and whatever, should be looked at by someone who is a competent translator for the language being used in a language-specific version of openSUSE?

(No offense was meant to anyone in the above, but there needs to be some attention paid to the complaints of those who are trying to use openSUSE for the first time.)

Ciao.

As it's "open"SUSE anyone can make contributions if it is felt that it falls short. The Linux way is to offer choice. I know if some people have 6 shirts, choosing one can be lead to confusion. Once the distro is set up, either by one's own efforts or help of others, it's solid and simply calling it "amateurish" and "kids' stuff" is blowing hot air. People who have for decades cheerily put up with Windows viruses, malware, spyware, crashes, lost work and other ills, still proudly sing it's virtues of ease, professionally done, etc. Lack of choice is also seen as a virtue. Linux is easy to install and use, lots have done it, are still doing it and are quite happy with what it offers. I have newbies using Linux that I've installed for them and I hardly get any queries, sometimes they discover things I am not aware of. Last week one user had a problem with sound which at first I thought may have been caused when he did an automatic update to 10.3, however, it turned out to be a faulty on-board sound chip, he ordered a new sound card, I disabled the on-board sound, popped the new card in, sorted the mixer volumes and he was on his way - the only problem he has had since openSUSE 10.0 was installed. The calls I get are mostly Windows and the users are clueless. Change a motherboard, sound card, networking and most of them run into problems. Error messages in any OS are cryptic, even to seasoned Windows users and often the cure to all problems is to wipe the Windows hard drive and reinstall. Right now my brother has a problem where everything was working normally after a couple of visits from Packard Bell to reinstall XP, now suddenly using his webcam in skype brings the whole box crashing down. Imagine the rukus that would cause from a user of openSUSE, but such things are an acceptable happening in Windows. To hold Windows up as a beacon is laughable. Linux is not Windows, it's different to Windows and the openSUSE team does a great job at providing us with a very stable and usable platform that is free of pollutants, the minor effort is getting to know it. If that's too much for a newbie, then they are free to get something else that does all the thinking for them and possesses the same tawdry look wherever you see it. Now I have to return a call left on my answering machine earlier - yet another Windows problem. Regards Sid.

Someone came up with the brilliant idea of having thumbnails showing which Desktops are available for installation - love it.

Following on re this idea have a look at this which I accidentally came across earlier today while fooling around with the second computer:

http://www.mandriva.com/en/product/mandriva-linux-one

and then to see the sort of screens a newbie used to Windows now expects from a distro when installing it download the LIVE CD file called mandrake-linux-2008-one-KDE-cdrom-i586 (694M) at this location:

http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/carroll.cac.psu.edu/MandrivaLinux/officia...

In what you state above there is this recurring theme used by others where the flaws of Windows are always mentioned as if they were a justification for not trying to improve how, say, our own preferred distro, openSUSE, is installed and how it looks. Who gives a damn about Windows? I don't. But I did mention with respect to the way those who have been raised on Windows, and have a Windows mentality, want to see a distro look/behave when they go about installing it for the first time.

Neither do I, but Windows is always referenced as the gold standard in these discussions.

To quote you from above, "I have newbies using Linux that *I'VE INSTALLED FOR THEM* [my emphasis]". And here is the bottom line about what is being discussed in this thread (at least the way I see it): how best to make it easier for people to install openSUSE and make it easier for them to make decisions about the more appropriate for them features.

I mentioned the quoted line above for a good reason. There have been and still are Linux Installfests where new and prospective users have been guided through installs and if Windows wasn't mandated on most of the tin shipped, I'm sure many problems would be encountered much the same as in Linux. I am all for improvement and we have seen it in spades. Back at SuSE 8.2, a colleague who had only had a basic intro to Solaris class asked to borrow my CD's. A few weeks later I got a call from him with a bit of trepidation, expecting lots of questions detailing difficulties, instead it was to tell me his wife loved it as she was now conducting her photographic business without crashes and loss of work, the improvement between then and 11.0 is immense. Many times we underestimate the intelligence of many newbies. Most of the ones with problems are the ones with one track minds. My greatest embarrassment in Linux was with what I called "the class of '98" when many of those guys were asking questions like "how do I create a .bat file in Linux?" and others you won't believe, but I watched them transformed into competent Linux users. Before 1998 or since, I haven't seen the likes. I have so many happy tales, including one colleague who asked me to install Linux on his laptop to dual boot with XP, I put CD1 in and booted up, then got called away to work on a Solaris problem and when I got back, he had SuSE up and running, much to my surprise. Sometimes I have been surprised by colleagues who I thought would have known better, like the one who said, "I installed Linux on my PC at home", then asked what you do with Linux after you install it. My reply was simply to point to my Linux laptop sitting on the desk opposite his. We were both doing tech support, me at a third level and he at 2nd level, we were both delivering system classes using powerpoint and the whole panoply of work related stuff. Largely it depends on the mindset of the person approaching Linux for the first time and the current monoculture throws up many problems that are not "real" problems but misconceptions by people who think they know all about computers.

Look at the URLs I provided above and tell me how,say, the first one compares to what is showing on the Novell site (at least the last time I looked, months ago).

(Now, I have a strong feeling that there will be a statement made sooner or later that to be able to present openSUSE along the lines, or preferably better, of what, say, you see for Mandriva (above), there is no programmer available because all are too busy to do any more than they are currently doing. I understand this and I really sympathise with everyone involved with openSUSE. But then I have to say that if there is money available to employ a Community Manager then there should be money found to employ a programmer to help all the others, now busting their guts on openSUSE, in implementing any changes which would benefit the distro in the short to medium term - and beyond.)

Ciao.

We could always do better, obviously. I have been a Mandrake/Mandriva subscriber for years and have used that distro alongside SuSE/openSUSE without any real difficulties, but for ease of use for newbies, I have always given them SuSE/openSUSE. I don't know that simply having a Community Manager necessarily will fix anything, what we need are developers who are usability experts and graphical designers - that task is left to too few and to those without the required knowledge base, so they do their best. Once people are stepping off familiar territory, there are bound to be endless questions and difficulties, whatever we do, someone will get stuck if there isn't a .exe or .dmg file. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org