-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-06-01 04:25, Roger Luedecke wrote:

KDE3 Is unsupported by openSUSE, so I would expect that to be a no.

That is not true. It is not supported by openSUSE staff, ie, SUSE/Novell, but it is supported by the community. Same as other community projects created and supports evergreen or tumbleweed. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk3mMT4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WvpACeIZaHWjCu87f08TO9XijAGF9h JD8AnjUnEHu4tl2HFXqCZJd15UREoR23 =ZxY+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 01, 2011 at 03:22:46PM +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

Le mercredi 01 juin 2011, à 14:31 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

It is not supported by openSUSE staff, ie, SUSE/Novell, but it is supported by the community.

"openSUSE staff" is the community. It's not SUSE/Novell.

I guess (but I don't know, since I've not followed things there) that the point is that KDE3 is not officially supported by the project, mostly because nobody wants to promise anything about security fixes and stability (people working on it will do their best, though).

Or the other way round ... if there are community packagers keeping it alive it could also live in Factory and the openSUSE releases... Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am 01.06.2011 16:54, schrieb Greg Freemyer:

fyi: if adding kde3 back into factory does not cause something else to be kicked out, I think it should be. I think the community packager(s) has proven he is willing to support it to some extent.

Depends on the support-level. Imagine, they do it as a hobby beside their regular jobs. Now, the situation comes up, that they haven´t the time anymore to *really* work on the project because they come tired at home, watch a few tv shows and then go to bed because their batteries are already empty. And then imagine these people who are using the KDE3 desktop and need to get a fix _as_soon_as_possible_ because it´s security-related. How will they get them whereas the maintainers *aren´t* there for fixing it? I know you could say that about *every* piece of software, but espacially when we talking about the desktop, the tool, where the user interacts most with, we need to make sure, that the support is in a professional way. That doesn´t mean, that the hobby maintainers aren´t good or just too busy at all, but the risk is there at anytime. ==== Support of KDE 3.5.x ==== The KDE project itself says, that KDE 3.x is dead, and that you should switch to KDE SC 4.x. From that point of view, it doesn´t make any sense to support a dead platform. _*But*_ there´s another view: These people who aren´t happy about KDE4, but aren´t happy with LXDE, Xfce, GNOME and whatever, can still use their desired desktop. And there´s the Trinity project. Trinity delivers a KDE3-desktop in still maintaining-mode, based on Qt4 now. IMHO it makes much more sense to switch to Trinity and *then* push it to factory. What do you mean? -kdl -- Kim-Dennis Leyendecker openSUSE Ambassador / openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org | http://www.suse.de Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Thu, 2 Jun 2011 01:26:30 +0400 schrieb Ilya Chernykh :

To get a security fix there should not be just maintainers, but programmers, not just programmers, but hi-class programmers.

I for instance know one issue in ksquirrel libs http://secunia.com/secunia_research/2008-63/ . This issue is currently can be automatically detected by post-build-checks of OBS thus the package can only built with the checks disabled.

Well, the fix for this issue is pretty trivial, a possible fix is attached. No hi-class programmer needed.

As the issue is not fixed so far, one can just choose not to include ksquirrel-libs in openSUSE, it is not a very important package.

More relevant is, that the package is obviously abandoned by upstream (otherwise they would have fixed that trivial bug which even the compiler can find, no security expert needed) and thus it's a good idea to not include it anymore. -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!"

Am Thu, 2 Jun 2011 15:16:22 +0400 schrieb Ilya Chernykh :

On Thursday 02 June 2011 12:39:40 Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

...

I for instance know one issue in ksquirrel libs http://secunia.com/secunia_research/2008-63/ . This issue is currently can be automatically detected by post-build-checks of OBS thus the package can only built with the checks disabled.

Well, the fix for this issue is pretty trivial, a possible fix is attached. No hi-class programmer needed.

Still does not pass the checks...

Yes, but because of different bugs which you did not tell us about ;) I'm wondering how this code ever could have worked, and I understand that the developer abandoned it and went away to do something else. You should probably *not* include it in KDE:KDE3. It also does not seem to have ever been in any SUSE release, but only in some third-party repo (judging from the changelog). Probably there was a reason for it not being in any SUSE release ;-) Anyway. I submitted a fix to your repo to fix the most obvious bugs. -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 01 June 2011 18:54:08 Greg Freemyer wrote:

fyi: if adding kde3 back into factory does not cause something else to be kicked out, I think it should be. I think the community packager(s) has proven he is willing to support it to some extent.

I think the justification behind removing KDE3 was that if it is removed, KDE4 will become better. I opened a feature request in openFATE to restore KDE3 but most people voted against with most comments were such that if KDE3 restored, bugs in KDE4 will not be fixed. So I think there is no hope to expect KDE3 to be ever restored in openSUSE. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 02 June 2011 01:21:12 Kim Leyendecker wrote:

From now, KDE3 would be a nice feature. But when it really come back to Factory, then please not with the installation media. Just put it into a special KDE3-repository and maintain it there.

Stop. There is already a KDE3 repository. There is no need to change anything for that. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 02 June 2011 01:47:44 Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

Stop. There is already a KDE3 repository. There is no need to change anything for that.

Right, and from my point of view, we should change it to trinity

A repo for Gnome 2.30 remains a repo for Gnome 2.30, and a new repo for Gnome 2.32 is created along it. If Trinity packaged, there will be a separate repository for Trinity.

as soon as possible to get updates for it.

Please tell me which exactly updates do you want? As I already said they are currently porting KDE3 to cmake build system.

The repository is the only solution. KDE3 on a live CD / DVD of factory wouldn´t make any sense

Why do you think so? DVD currently has choice for different DEs including LXDE, Xfce etc. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am 01.06.2011 23:40, schrieb Ilya Chernykh:

I think the main problem with this argument is that one can argue for removal of any software from the distribution just because it "sucks" resources from other software. For example, argue for removal of Gnome, Xfce, games etc...

Wrong. the openSUSE- and Linux-philosophy, or at least of the it philosophies is "choice is good". So you can´t say, that different projects take over resources from other projects. But you can say it when you talk about the *same* project in two *different* versions. That´s the point, you get me? ;) -kdl -- Kim-Dennis Leyendecker openSUSE Ambassador / openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org | http://www.suse.de Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/01/2011 09:25 AM, Marcus Meissner wrote:

On Wed, Jun 01, 2011 at 03:22:46PM +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

...

Le mercredi 01 juin 2011, à 14:31 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

It is not supported by openSUSE staff, ie, SUSE/Novell, but it is supported by the community.

"openSUSE staff" is the community. It's not SUSE/Novell.

I guess (but I don't know, since I've not followed things there) that the point is that KDE3 is not officially supported by the project, mostly because nobody wants to promise anything about security fixes and stability (people working on it will do their best, though).

Or the other way round ... if there are community packagers keeping it alive it could also live in Factory and the openSUSE releases...

It's a release that's considered dead by its own maintainers. I can understand users wanting to stick with it, but we shouldn't make it an easy option for new users. - -Jeff - -- Jeff Mahoney SuSE Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk3mqy0ACgkQLPWxlyuTD7LSEgCdFRX5y+Be4uPz9BTUkPkgLrCC 9SQAn0KUBv413BMZNBZ6ecq8K23WZdvt =uFX/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 5:23 PM, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

Am 01.06.2011 23:12, schrieb Jeff Mahoney:

...

It's a release that's considered dead by its own maintainers. I can understand users wanting to stick with it, but we shouldn't make it an easy option for new users.

Again and again, KDE3 is still alive via Trinity. I can understand, that Trinity isn´t so popular, but if we would ship it as a KDE3 alternative (Yeah, KDE3 is still in our repos, why not delivering Trinity instead?  http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_11.4/)

thanks

Kim (and all), For clarity, KDE3 is not just "still in our repos", the openSUSE KDE3 community packagers/maintainers have been keeping it active and workable all the way up through openSUSE 11.4. It's not just a matter of chance, it is real people doing real work. That is exactly what the opensuse do-ocracy is about. Those that do, get to decide. If anything, the current openSUSE KDE3 developers should get recognition. It is exactly contributors like them that deserve on of your interviews. That is true community contributors that as far as I know are not getting paid. It is clear the current real and active openSUSE KDE3 maintainers think moving to trinity is a bad idea, primarily because its not a released product yet. If you or anyone else feels that's a wrong decision, then go for a Trinity port and when your done announce your success, but I very much am of the understanding openSUSE lets the do'ers decide. In this case Ilya Chernykh is the main do'er, so he gets to decide what's in the KDE3 repo he maintains, not me or you. The only question the rest of us have any say so in is if his repo should be pushed into Factory and therefore if it is part of openSUSE 12.1 OSS and updates will go to openSUSE 12.1 updates. Given the IIya and team have proven their willingness to support KDE3 abd have done so for at least the 18-months of a release cycle already, I argue it should be included unless there is a resource issue on the distro DVD. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Wed, 01 Jun 2011 17:12:13 -0400 schrieb Jeff Mahoney :

It's a release that's considered dead by its own maintainers.

No. By its own developers. The maintainers are not necessarily the developers. s/KDE 3/kernel 2.4/ s/KDE 3/SLES 9/ There are still people maintaining it :-) -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Thu, 2 Jun 2011 14:47:29 +0400 schrieb Ilya Chernykh :

On Thursday 02 June 2011 12:49:16 Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

schrieb Jeff Mahoney :

...

It's a release that's considered dead by its own maintainers.

No. By its own developers. The maintainers are not necessarily the developers.

Whom you call the "KDE3 developers"? Again the KDE4 team? They are not the KDE3 developers.

KDE is in my description project. My wording implied "KDE Developers". Of course different interpretations are possible. We could also start talking about "kernel developers", "kernel-3.0 developers", "kernel-2.6.39 developers", "kernel-2.6.38 developers", ... IMHO that does not make much sense. Your opinion might differ. -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Le 02/06/2011 17:03, Ken Schneider - openSUSE a écrit :

I maintain my house, does that make me a builder? There is a difference.

builder is ambiguous. Relating to programming, there are programmers/developpers (for me it's the same - may be the developpers can be also documentation writers?) and also packagers. All these people build something that is finally for us a rpm... and, I guess, any OBS user is a "builder" :-) how is this discussion usefull... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.youtube.com/user/jdddodinorg http://jdd.blip.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 02 June 2011 15:35:48 Stephan Kleine wrote:

...

Whom you call the "KDE3 developers"? Again the KDE4 team? They are not the KDE3 developers.

Yeah, right. Those are totally different folks that started yet another desktop environment and just needed a well known name to attract people. Also they killed & burried the kde3 devs in some hidden place to avoid getting called out on it...

Dude, this was funny over a year ago when one could that argue that you don't know better but now it is getting weird.

The KDE4 team are not the people who are KDE3 developers now and they are not the people who created KDE. At some time they contributed to KDE3, though their impact is controversial. KDE3 does not reflect neither their philosophy nor design. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 02 June 2011 16:36:18 Stephan Kleine wrote:

lolz. It really doesn't become correct by some magic if you repeat that stuff over and over :D

Just for the giggles: who and where are those "kde 3 developers" since they obviously aren't the guys at kde.org?

Currently, Trinity project. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 02 June 2011 16:42:40 jdd wrote:

...

The KDE4 team are not the people who are KDE3 developers now and they are not the people who created KDE. At some time they contributed to KDE3, though their impact is controversial. KDE3 does not reflect neither their philosophy nor design.

interesting. Did the kde*3* developper stop working on kde completely (they have any right to do so!) or are they still working on kde3?

Some people stopped, other people continue. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 2. Juni 2011, 12:47:29 schrieb Ilya Chernykh:

On Thursday 02 June 2011 12:49:16 Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

schrieb Jeff Mahoney :

...

It's a release that's considered dead by its own maintainers.

No. By its own developers. The maintainers are not necessarily the developers.

Whom you call the "KDE3 developers"? Again the KDE4 team? They are not the KDE3 developers.

OK, we should carefuly differ between the situation we have now and we had when KDE3 was dropped. Back then we have a KDE team that didn't want to spend time in maintaining two sets of KDE and rather concentrate on KDE4 and noone else wanted to maintain it. Now, 3 openSUSE releases later, the situation is different. We have an upstream project and openSUSE packagers that are willing to maintain these sources. So I see no problem reviving the packages. Of course they require major cleanup and whoever wants them in factory should really give them some love - so far most of them are the same old 11.1 packages with minimal patching. For one: I want to see unsermake gone in factory. Greetings, Stephan -- Sent from openSUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 2. Juni 2011, 18:51:32 schrieb Ilya Chernykh:

On Thursday 02 June 2011 20:34:23 Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

OK, we should carefuly differ between the situation we have now and we had when KDE3 was dropped. Back then we have a KDE team that didn't want to spend time in maintaining two sets of KDE and rather concentrate on KDE4 and noone else wanted to maintain it.

Now, 3 openSUSE releases later, the situation is different. We have an upstream project and openSUSE packagers that are willing to maintain these sources. So I see no problem reviving the packages. Of course they require major cleanup and whoever wants them in factory should really give them some love - so far most of them are the same old 11.1 packages with minimal patching. For one: I want to see unsermake gone in factory.

I think overwhelming majority of KDE3 packages in KDE:KDE3 do not use unsermake. Maybe only 2 or 3.

Maybe 2 or 3? I count 98. That's what I meant with "same old 11.1 packages" Greetings, Stephan -- Sent from openSUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 2. Juni 2011, 10:49:16 schrieb Stefan Seyfried:

Am Wed, 01 Jun 2011 17:12:13 -0400

schrieb Jeff Mahoney :

...

It's a release that's considered dead by its own maintainers.

No. By its own developers. The maintainers are not necessarily the developers.

s/KDE 3/kernel 2.4/ s/KDE 3/SLES 9/

There are still people maintaining it :-) Not in factory though :)

Greetings, Stephan -- Sent from openSUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-06-01 15:22, Vincent Untz wrote:

Le mercredi 01 juin 2011, à 14:31 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

It is not supported by openSUSE staff, ie, SUSE/Novell, but it is supported by the community.

"openSUSE staff" is the community. It's not SUSE/Novell.

I disagree. Staff is composed of those that are payed for working on the project, like you. I'm part of the community but I'm not payed, thus I'm not staff. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk3mPyQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XUYQCeLVfJdjQlqmTsdFVs8uqiBVoi HQEAnA2WoWx9UOw0Xx3LaR37ZusSFd1J =YDwj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-06-01 15:39, jdd wrote:

Le 01/06/2011 15:31, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

...

"openSUSE staff" is the community. It's not SUSE/Novell.

I disagree. Staff is composed of those that are payed for working on the project, like you. I'm part of the community but I'm not payed, thus I'm not staff.

it's a very short definition of the staff. Most oft he board is not paid, many team staffs are not paid.

Staff is always paid. Employees. If they are not paid, they are not staff. Simple. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk3mdiQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UVkQCeNjzTbo5fA0VidEdqC9H+xXiv aicAoI4YwE+OL+P7w0jrGYurzvX9OvPm =OKNw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am 01.06.2011 16:06, schrieb Ilya Chernykh:

On Wednesday 01 June 2011 17:22:46 Vincent Untz wrote:

...

...

"openSUSE staff" is the community. It's not SUSE/Novell.

I guess (but I don't know, since I've not followed things there) that the point is that KDE3 is not officially supported by the project, mostly because nobody wants to promise anything about security fixes and stability (people working on it will do their best, though). Possibly, but can one promise with confidence security fixes for any package in openSUSE?

Well, the probabilty is much more higher that you will get updates for Firefox then updates for KDE3, because it´s still in *active* development. That´s the garantee you get. By the way, there people who are still maintaining the old KDE3-stuff (great, if you ask me) but wouldn´t it be better to switch to the Trinity project, because they will give you a much more bigger garantee that you will get fixes? kind regards -- Kim-Dennis Leyendecker openSUSE Ambassador / openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org | http://www.suse.de Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/01/2011 08:31 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2011-06-01 04:25, Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

KDE3 Is unsupported by openSUSE, so I would expect that to be a no.

That is not true.

It is not supported by openSUSE staff, ie, SUSE/Novell, but it is supported by the community. Same as other community projects created and supports evergreen or tumbleweed.

An important distinction for both of those projects is that while they're active and hosted on d.o.o, they're not actually part of the official distribution. Community members who maintain evergreen do so because they want to. Greg KH (and others) maintain Tumbleweed because they think it's a decent idea to experiment with. Neither of these projects are an official release. I don't see where this argument is going with KDE3. openSUSE and the Open Build Service make it incredibly easy to create external repositories. If there are users interested in KDE3, by all means, keep the repository up-to-date and use it. However, the fact remains that: 1) KDE3 is unsupported by the upstream project 2) KDE3 is doesn't have anyone committed fully to keeping it maintained in openSUSE 3) Its proponents aren't claiming that it should be a popular option -- just that they want it available. These issues make a pretty clear case for why it shouldn't be part of an official release. Without committed people supporting it, any issues that arise make the entire release look bad. If the issue is to make it easy to install, then perhaps one solution might be to add the ability (if it doesn't already exist) to add external repositories and patterns early in the installation process. - -Jeff - -- Jeff Mahoney SuSE Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk3mqicACgkQLPWxlyuTD7K0VwCeK+YKiWM24yhbr9xSSCUDu51r jyoAn228oCGjdUrTV08B6+rUQQ7KYd5k =O/L8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 1. Juni 2011, 23:07:51 schrieb Jeff Mahoney:

However, the fact remains that: 1) KDE3 is unsupported by the upstream project

Ok, forget about KDE3, we're talking about Trinity here.

2) KDE3 is doesn't have anyone committed fully to keeping it maintained in openSUSE Well, Ilya seems to maintain it for real.

Greetings, Stephan -- Sent from openSUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 02 June 2011 20:40:12 Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

Ok, forget about KDE3, we're talking about Trinity here.

AFAIK we *are* talking about KDE3.

KDE3 is just another name for the same project. The Trinity devs explained that they are afraid of being sued for trade mark violation by the KDE e.V for using the KDE brand. I for instance do not think this is possible. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:53 PM, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

KDE3 is just another name for the same project. The Trinity devs explained that they are afraid of being sued for trade mark violation by the KDE e.V for using the KDE brand.

Here's another reason to stay the course and wait to see what happens with Trinity: http://www.trinitydesktop.org/ If you go to their website, it says they are down and will be until at least the 7th. That's a fairly long time to be down. Also, from what I have seen of Trinity, they are more into supporting Debian/uBuntu and Slackware based systems. As for factory, I'm not sure that I see the need to move KDE3 back into it. Especially with the hal-dependencies. For now it should probably be in it's current repo and if there is more support for it later, then I would be for it. I can't use 11.4/KDE3 on my desktop because of the lack of a SaX2 type config tool with my weird monitor setup. Otherwise, I would already be using it. Ilya - Do we have a list of packages that require HAL? And, can HAL still be used beside/conucrrent with the replacement?(udev I believe?). If so, and if KDE3 is the only thing that needs HAL, I wouldn't say moving it back into Factory is the right idea until/if KDE3 can be moved over to udev. Just my 2 cents. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Jeff Mahoney wrote:

However, the fact remains that: 1) KDE3 is unsupported by the upstream project 2) KDE3 is doesn't have anyone committed fully to keeping it maintained in openSUSE 3) Its proponents aren't claiming that it should be a popular option -- just that they want it available.

The latter two could be said about almost any package in openSUSE.

These issues make a pretty clear case for why it shouldn't be part of an official release. Without committed people supporting it, any issues that arise make the entire release look bad.

If the issue is to make it easy to install, then perhaps one solution might be to add the ability (if it doesn't already exist) to add external repositories and patterns early in the installation process.

Do we really want openSUSE to be collection of random repos with unknown policy? I for one don't. If there's popular demand for a package we should IMHO try to include it in Factory and therefore releases instead of training people to add random repos or to install stuff from random places on the internet. Having a package in Factory means that at least some very minimal standard is adhered to. There's no benefit in keeping a package away from Factory because it's "unmaintained" if lots of people have it installed from elsewhere anyways. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

On Wednesday, June 01, 2011 02:05:56 AM Ilya Chernykh wrote:

...

First of all I want to ask whether hal will be available under 12.1 or it is to be decided?

My second question is as follows. As you know, hal is depreciated and people who prepare 12.1 want to remove dependency on hal from different packages.

For instance they want to remove it from kdebase3-runtime which will be included in 12.1. But hal is necessary for normal function of KDE3 so we, who use KDE3 as a desktop want hal functions to be enabled.

That's why my question.

Is it possible to build a package with hal if hal is available in the repository and without hal otherwise? How to properly organize the check on whether the package exists in the repo at the buildtime?

Or may be another solution based on an option constant defined in the project's properties is better?

You can add hal to the KDE3 repository if KDE3 is the only users of hal.

So there are still people who maintain KDE3? I thought it was dropped from the distro because noone wanted to maintain it anymore? cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 01 June 2011 10:12:19 Martin Schlander wrote:

Onsdag den 1. juni 2011 10:01:01 skrev Ludwig Nussel:

...

So there are still people who maintain KDE3? I thought it was dropped from the distro because noone wanted to maintain it anymore?

There's an OBS repo where volunteers spend their time trying to keep this ancient dead software from bitrotting completely. That was always so. There's even an opensuse-kde3 mailinglist :-) I mean, why not, it's a perfectly working piece of quality software.

http://www.linuxplanet.com/index.php?/linuxplanet/reports/7108/1/ -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Sascha Peilicke http://saschpe.wordpress.com

On 1 June 2011 08:43, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

On Wednesday, June 01, 2011 02:05:56 AM Ilya Chernykh wrote:

...

First of all I want to ask whether hal will be available under 12.1 or it is to be decided?

My second question is as follows. As you know, hal is depreciated and people who prepare 12.1 want to remove dependency on hal from different packages.

For instance they want to remove it from kdebase3-runtime which will be included in 12.1. But hal is necessary for normal function of KDE3 so we, who use KDE3 as a desktop want hal functions to be enabled.

That's why my question.

Is it possible to build a package with hal if hal is available in the repository and without hal otherwise? How to properly organize the check on whether the package exists in the repo at the buildtime?

Or may be another solution based on an option constant defined in the project's properties is better?

You can add hal to the KDE3 repository if KDE3 is the only users of hal.

It's indeed time that hal dies...

In the current factory aka 12.1 M3 it appears that though there's no package dependency defined : pm-profiler-0.1_git20101115-9.2.noarch yast2-power-management-2.18.1-10.2.noarch May be need some work, there's no package "haldaemon" (which there was in 11.4). Is this in hand, or would a bug report be useful? # pm-profiler -e balanced_low_latency /usr/lib/pm-profiler/enable-profile: line 45: /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/ondemand/up_threshold: No such file or directory fir:/etc/squid # pm-profiler -l PROFILE=balanced_low_latency Error org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.freedesktop.Hal was not provided by any .service files CPUFREQ_GOVERNOR= SATA_ALPM= DIRTY_WRITEBACK_CENTISECS=500 READ_AHEAD_KB=128 Error org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.freedesktop.Hal was not provided by any .service files CPUFREQ_GOVERNOR= /usr/lib/pm-profiler/get-current-settings: line 137: [: too many arguments fir:/etc/squid # rpm -q pm-profiler pm-profiler-0.1_git20101115-9.2.noarch fir:/etc/squid # rpm -qa |grep 'yast.*power' yast2-power-management-2.18.1-10.2.noarch Came across a HOWTO on the forum so this has some user visibility - http://forums.opensuse.org/english/get-technical-help-here/how-faq-forums/un... Regards Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 17 July 2011 21:37, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Rob OpenSuSE [07-17-11 15:26]:

...

On 1 June 2011 08:43, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

You can add hal to the KDE3 repository if KDE3 is the only users of hal.

It's indeed time that hal dies...

In the current factory aka 12.1 M3 it appears that though there's no package dependency defined :

pm-profiler-0.1_git20101115-9.2.noarch yast2-power-management-2.18.1-10.2.noarch

May be need some work, there's no package "haldaemon" (which there was in 11.4).  Is this in hand, or would a bug report be useful?

No, there was no "haldaemon" package, it is/was:  hal-32bit-0.5.14-18.1.x86_64  hal-0.5.14-18.1.x86_64

invoked as "/usr/sbin/hald --daemon=yes"

Fair enough, but when I was looking for hal stuff, this was in pm-profiler changelog, which may have been HAL replacement, so I used that name : Mon 26 Jan 2009 12:00:00 UTC hmacht@suse.de - replace "Requires: . hal ." with "Requires: . haldaemon ." in rcpm-profiler (bnc#429541) The packages don't seem to have the requires correct, so there's a problem in any case; it does not "just work". I first found something required was not pulled in with Tumbleweed (based on default KDE install), and finding this removal of HAL message I'm wondering whether this is an overlooked issue or not. The balanced low latency profile has a line : HAL_DISABLE_POLLING="yes" If the HAL daemon package called "hal" is being got rid of, unlike 11.4 then you can't just install the packages. Regards Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

On Monday, July 18, 2011 00:14:02 Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

...

On 17 July 2011 21:37, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Rob OpenSuSE [07-17-11 15:26]:

...

On 1 June 2011 08:43, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

You can add hal to the KDE3 repository if KDE3 is the only users of hal.

It's indeed time that hal dies...

In the current factory aka 12.1 M3 it appears that though there's no package dependency defined :

pm-profiler-0.1_git20101115-9.2.noarch yast2-power-management-2.18.1-10.2.noarch

May be need some work, there's no package "haldaemon" (which there was in 11.4). Is this in hand, or would a bug report be useful?

No, there was no "haldaemon" package, it is/was: hal-32bit-0.5.14-18.1.x86_64 hal-0.5.14-18.1.x86_64

invoked as "/usr/sbin/hald --daemon=yes"

Fair enough, but when I was looking for hal stuff, this was in pm-profiler changelog, which may have been HAL replacement, so I used that name :

Mon 26 Jan 2009 12:00:00 UTC hmacht@suse.de - replace "Requires: . hal ." with "Requires: . haldaemon ." in rcpm-profiler (bnc#429541)

The packages don't seem to have the requires correct, so there's a problem in any case; it does not "just work". I first found something required was not pulled in with Tumbleweed (based on default KDE install), and finding this removal of HAL message I'm wondering whether this is an overlooked issue or not.

The balanced low latency profile has a line : HAL_DISABLE_POLLING="yes" If the HAL daemon package called "hal" is being got rid of, unlike 11.4 then you can't just install the packages.

You should be able to install, it will just not work ;-(

Rob, since you found this: Could you file a bug against pm-profiler, please? We have now dropped hal and the package does not require hal in it's spec file but uses it in the rcpm- profiler script.

Already done: 706364 cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org