Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Tuesday 2015-06-09 11:31, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

The net-tools package in Factory is completely outdated. We have version 1.60 from 2001(!)

Well, that is the date of the most recent tarball. Tarballs are a reasonable base, if you ask me :)

...

there is an at least slightly more current git repo (last update 2013) at sourceforge: https://sourceforge.net/projects/net-tools/ That one is also used by Fedora, Gentoo, Arch etc.

Anyone up to taking the challenge of rebasing the patches in the net-tools package to that git version?

Anyone considering it: Be aware that there return for that is already diminishingly low, and that his/her time is probably better invested in removing Requires: net-tools from the few remaining packages.

openSUSE's boot does not depend on net-tools, neither does Fedora's. Fedora's dhcp-server does not depend on it either (while openSUSE's still does). The ship has sunk long ago… the remains only float because of buoyancy.

You are right, it's mostly useful for the hostname tool. Still I guess we want and have to keep that one. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 9 Jun 2015 15:08, Guido Berhoerster wrote:

* Ludwig Nussel [2015-06-09 14:16]:

...

Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Tuesday 2015-06-09 11:31, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

The net-tools package in Factory is completely outdated. We have version 1.60 from 2001(!)

[...] Anyone considering it: Be aware that there return for that is already diminishingly low, and that his/her time is probably better invested in removing Requires: net-tools from the few remaining packages.

openSUSE's boot does not depend on net-tools, neither does Fedora's. Fedora's dhcp-server does not depend on it either (while openSUSE's still does). The ship has sunk long ago… the remains only float because of buoyancy.

You are right, it's mostly useful for the hostname tool. Still I guess we want and have to keep that one.

How about switching to the seperate hostname implementation at https://packages.qa.debian.org/h/hostname.html which everyone else (at least Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora/RHEL) uses? Would that be enough to get rid of net-tools altogether?

Uhmm, what is the functional equivialient of "netstat", and what will replace "traceroute" / "traceroute6" (tracepath, maybe?) ? Yes, we already had the discussion of the eqiv. of "ifconfig" and "route", but I'm unclear on the other two. Thanks, - Yamaban.

On Tue, 9 Jun 2015 15:28, Michal Kubecek wrote:

On Tuesday 09 of June 2015 15:22:45 Yamaban wrote:

...

Uhmm, what is the functional equivialient of "netstat",

For the primary purpose, ss (iproute2 package) provides much more information and is way faster.

Ah! Now, that will take some adaption of some scripts, but that needs to be done, anyway (upgrading the last 12.3 machines is a hazardous task)

...

and what will replace "traceroute" / "traceroute6" (tracepath, maybe?) ?

Neither of these is part of openSUSE net-tools package.

Oh, I see, package "traceroute", and removed from "net-tools" since "Tue Jan 29 18:55:00 UTC 2013" acording to net-tools.changes, sorry for the noise on that. Thanks for the info, - Yamaban. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/09/2015 03:08 PM, Guido Berhoerster wrote:

How about switching to the seperate hostname implementation at https://packages.qa.debian.org/h/hostname.html which everyone else (at least Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora/RHEL) uses? Would that be enough to get rid of net-tools altogether?

BTW: there'd also be a hostname(1) implementation in coreutils which is just not "./configure"d to be built currently. Have a nice day, Berny -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* Ludwig Nussel [2015-06-09 15:58]:

Bernhard Voelker wrote:

...

On 06/09/2015 03:08 PM, Guido Berhoerster wrote:

...

How about switching to the seperate hostname implementation at https://packages.qa.debian.org/h/hostname.html which everyone else (at least Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora/RHEL) uses? Would that be enough to get rid of net-tools altogether?

BTW: there'd also be a hostname(1) implementation in coreutils which is just not "./configure"d to be built currently.

Either of those options sounds better than keeping this ancient net-tools package. Has anyone checked whether the coreutils hostname and the standalone hostname from debian differ in features?

Only the Debian one is a drop-in replacement, the coreutils implementation doesn't support any of the cli options. -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 09.06.2015 um 15:08 schrieb Guido Berhoerster:

How about switching to the seperate hostname implementation at https://packages.qa.debian.org/h/hostname.html which everyone else (at least Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora/RHEL) uses? Would that be enough to get rid of net-tools altogether?

no: susi:~ # rpm -qf `which ifconfig` net-tools-deprecated-1.60-767.1.x86_64 :-) -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Ludwig Nussel composed on 2015-06-09 14:16 (UTC+0200):

it's mostly useful for the hostname tool. Still I guess we want and have to keep that one.

Better to have one compatible with scripts that work in other distros: https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=872264 -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2015-06-09 15:14, Michal Kubecek wrote:

On Tuesday 09 of June 2015 14:01:18 Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

Anyone considering it: Be aware that there return for that is already diminishingly low, and that his/her time is probably better invested in removing Requires: net-tools from the few remaining packages.

IMHO these are the easier part of the problem. I'm afraid there are more packages which do not advertise the dependency on net-tools but silently use some of its utils in their scripts.

And admin/user's scripts, documentation, howtos... -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

And admin/user's scripts, documentation, howtos...

Nothing of that will be of any good if the tools themselves are abandonware and have been for a veeeeery long time. I pushed a separate traceroute version ~ two years ago but didn't put the rest of out its misery though. It is better to get rid of them entirely and use whatever alternative that is maintained even if not completely compatible. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 10 of June 2015 05:02:36 Carlos E. R. wrote:

But are they broken? As far as I know, they work.

Depends on your definition of "broken". From the top of my head, I have recently seen: - ifconfig silently truncating interface names - netstat unable to cope with socket inode numbers >= 2^32 - hostname -f and -i broken if hostname has only an IPv6 address The, of course, the well known (but largely ignored) fact that ifconfig syntax and semantics is based on model abandoned in kernel 2.1 and poorly emulated since. In a similar fashion, route can see and handle only small part of the routing configuration. And, perhaps most funny, rarp has absolutely no chance of working since the kernel RARP code was dropped in 2.3.

If they are still available as an extra, non default package, we can install and use it. Not being a default package, things that miss the tools will be corrected, and we can adapt our local scripts with time.

While I believe most of net-tools should have been gone long ago, just dropping it out of the blue would be too harsh and too disruptive. On the other hand, it should no longer be included in the default installation or standard patterns. Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 10 Jun 2015 13:57, Michal Kubecek wrote:

On Wednesday 10 of June 2015 07:45:24 Michal Kubecek wrote:

...

On Wednesday 10 of June 2015 05:02:36 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

If they are still available as an extra, non default package, we can install and use it. Not being a default package, things that miss the tools will be corrected, and we can adapt our local scripts with time.

While I believe most of net-tools should have been gone long ago, just dropping it out of the blue would be too harsh and too disruptive. On the other hand, it should no longer be included in the default installation or standard patterns.

One more note on this: given the rolling nature of Tumbleweed, this is going to be a problem - existing intallation will keep the package even if it is removed from default installation patterns. Thus only users with newly installed systems will be able to notice any problem with missing dependencies.

Proposal: A 'new' release of net-tools (and thus of net-tools-deprecated), that does the following: * package net-tools contains: Conflict: net-tools < this-version Conflict: net-tools-deprecated < this-version Require: hostname-standalone (from debian as drop in replacement) Require: traceroute-standalone (already exists) Files: doc-path/Readme with note to equivialents of commands * sub-package net-tools-deprecated contains: Conflict: net-tools-deprecated < this-version Files: all the old tools excluding: hostname and traceroute{,6} in english only, no locales, no other lang manpages. This (without even a Recomments: or Supplements: to net-tools-deprecated) should clean up most of the existing TW / Factory installs. And +1 to exclude of net-tools and net-tools-deprecated from any and all pattern and default installs. Those that REALLY want it, will have to do a select and install them selfs. - Yamaban. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2015-06-10 07:45, Michal Kubecek wrote:

On Wednesday 10 of June 2015 05:02:36 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

But are they broken? As far as I know, they work.

Depends on your definition of "broken". From the top of my head, I have recently seen:

- ifconfig silently truncating interface names

Ah. I change mine to short names like eth0, so I didn't notice.

- hostname -f and -i broken if hostname has only an IPv6 address

Well, hostname apparently has a replacement. ... Ok, so there are some issues. Relying on those tools may be an error.

...

If they are still available as an extra, non default package, we can install and use it. Not being a default package, things that miss the tools will be corrected, and we can adapt our local scripts with time.

While I believe most of net-tools should have been gone long ago, just dropping it out of the blue would be too harsh and too disruptive. On the other hand, it should no longer be included in the default installation or standard patterns.

Yes, that's what I mean. On 2015-06-10 13:57, Michal Kubecek wrote:

One more note on this: given the rolling nature of Tumbleweed, this is going to be a problem - existing intallation will keep the package even if it is removed from default installation patterns. Thus only users with newly installed systems will be able to notice any problem with missing dependencies.

Suggestion; add to zypper a (soft) "un-recommend" feature. Might be useful in a rolling release and for release upgrades. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlV4M8YACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VQ2wCeMuYt31VbssqHx61cal4f2qy9 /DQAoIkOfT4iNoVe6XxWeroZ3odR3R6g =loKW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org