On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 5:35 AM Eric Schirra wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 17. Januar 2024, 09:03:11 CET schrieb Dan Čermák via openSUSE Factory:

...

...

...

path forward: buy a SLES license. The upgrade from Leap to SLE works in place and you will receive support for a very long time [1]. Plus there will probably be a supported upgrade path to SLE 16.

I definitely understand all your fears as an end user, because at the moment very little is clear. But as a business you can be assured that SUSE has a very high interest to keep you as a happy SLES user.

This assumption also misses the mark. SLES is the server version. You can get that. But I need the clients. So at most SLE desktop. Is that even still available? SLED is listed on the product lifecycle page, but I cannot tell you anything about its future (and neither about a potential SLED 16). I have no insight into that.

You are, another ambiguity.

...

...

That's another cost that you can't get financed. And also far too expensive. So only Leap remains. The price is there, because it takes a lot of work to deliver and maintain a desktop on top of an enterprise distribution code base. Hence relying on a free & community provided distribution to provide the same is a business risk at best. I can see why people would get mad, when features that used to be there go away, but if there is no one who is willing to work on these features for free, then that's the way it is. I.e. if you want a Leap 16 with a desktop, think about contributing to the new Leap.

In an ideal world, it works like this. But not in reality. You have to make it clear why you want Linux. And that doesn't always help. Fighting against the other known operating system takes a lot of strength and idealism. And if you have to fight for licenses for the SuseManager, which in my opinion are really steep, then you won't get a SLED through. Especially if you still want to reach your retirement.

And Leap has worked excellently so far. What's better about SELD? What advantage should I have? Especially if you also have to work with external contractors and their subcontractors? As I said, in a perfect, ideal world, you could do it that way. But unfortunately not in reality.

And if Suse thinks it has to cut everything, then, yes, you just have to change. Other mothers also have beautiful daughters.

To put it bluntly, this thinking is why funding for desktop Linux has been in a downward spiral. It's also why generally the professional Linux distributions have been shrinking and cutting things. If there's no money to afford continuing to do the work, then they have no choice but to cut it. This is true at SUSE, Red Hat, and even Canonical. Have you ever wondered why KDE was deprecated in RHEL? It wasn't just because KDE Plasma 5 was so big that they couldn't make the jump for RHEL 8, it was also because people were not paying for RHEL for the desktop, so they had no budget for more people. It happened again with the layoffs at Red Hat last year. SUSE is no different. And Ubuntu? Canonical already did their big layoff in 2017 where they laid off hundreds of staff related to the desktop. A big part of why both Red Hat and SUSE are moving toward Flatpaks and such is not because they necessarily want to strip down the desktop, but because the pool of money for the desktop has been shrinking this past decade as customers keep going to "free" options. Same for Ubuntu with Snaps. Without the money for the people, you have no choice but to do less. FOSS is great only if someone is willing to pick up the tab *somewhere* for the work done. If nobody does, then we may not have all the great stuff we have anymore. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 6:47 AM Eric Schirra wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 17. Januar 2024, 11:58:27 CET schrieb Neal Gompa:

...

...

...

SLED is listed on the product lifecycle page, but I cannot tell you anything about its future (and neither about a potential SLED 16). I have no insight into that.

You are, another ambiguity.

...

...

That's another cost that you can't get financed. And also far too expensive. So only Leap remains.

The price is there, because it takes a lot of work to deliver and maintain a desktop on top of an enterprise distribution code base. Hence relying on a free & community provided distribution to provide the same is a business risk at best. I can see why people would get mad, when features that used to be there go away, but if there is no one who is willing to work on these features for free, then that's the way it is. I.e. if you want a Leap 16 with a desktop, think about contributing to the new Leap.

In an ideal world, it works like this. But not in reality. You have to make it clear why you want Linux. And that doesn't always help. Fighting against the other known operating system takes a lot of strength and idealism. And if you have to fight for licenses for the SuseManager, which in my opinion are really steep, then you won't get a SLED through. Especially if you still want to reach your retirement.

And Leap has worked excellently so far. What's better about SELD? What advantage should I have? Especially if you also have to work with external contractors and their subcontractors? As I said, in a perfect, ideal world, you could do it that way. But unfortunately not in reality.

And if Suse thinks it has to cut everything, then, yes, you just have to change. Other mothers also have beautiful daughters.

To put it bluntly, this thinking is why funding for desktop Linux has been in a downward spiral. It's also why generally the professional Linux distributions have been shrinking and cutting things. If there's no money to afford continuing to do the work, then they have no choice but to cut it. This is true at SUSE, Red Hat, and even Canonical.

Have you ever wondered why KDE was deprecated in RHEL? It wasn't just because KDE Plasma 5 was so big that they couldn't make the jump for RHEL 8, it was also because people were not paying for RHEL for the desktop, so they had no budget for more people. It happened again with the layoffs at Red Hat last year. SUSE is no different. And Ubuntu? Canonical already did their big layoff in 2017 where they laid off hundreds of staff related to the desktop.

A big part of why both Red Hat and SUSE are moving toward Flatpaks and such is not because they necessarily want to strip down the desktop, but because the pool of money for the desktop has been shrinking this past decade as customers keep going to "free" options. Same for Ubuntu with Snaps.

Without the money for the people, you have no choice but to do less. FOSS is great only if someone is willing to pick up the tab *somewhere* for the work done. If nobody does, then we may not have all the great stuff we have anymore.

In advance. Personally, I am in favor of Linux and fight for it at every turn. Personally, I am not on the financial side. Quite the opposite. My home has been W***** free for about 20 years. But please take off your blinkers. Idealism counts for nothing in the business world. Nothing at all. Only facts count. In this case, money. And if Linux ends up being even more expensive than W****. How are you supposed to justify that? There's no money for it. Whether better and more fail-safe etc. Nobody is interested in that. Unfortunately.

Okay, let's talk about costs here. I'll use USD since that's what I have access to offhand. Windows 11 Pro retail is $199[1] with Microsoft 365 Standard is $150/year for a single user[2]. This ignores Windows-as-a-Service, which is what Windows Enterprise is now[3]. I'm aware that when larger enterprises pay for Microsoft 365 subscriptions, these two are bundled in an annual per-user pricing model, but it's not important for the purposes of this illustration (since it costs much more anyway!). A single SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop subscription is $129/year for a single system[4]. This includes a maintained Linux desktop offering with both the GNOME desktop and LibreOffice included. And you still have access to PackageHub to get you a lot more on top[5]. Obviously, with businesses having a large number of seats, they can get discounts. So let's presume that Microsoft gives you a 10% discount with 1000 seats and throws in Windows 11 Pro for $50. (Note I have no idea what the actual discount rates are, they vary across organizations!) So it's now $50 + $135/year. SLED with no discount is still cheaper, but I bet you'd get a discount anyway, which would make that cheaper and maintain the cost lead. Paying for the open source you use helps support the people who make the things you want to rely on, and it enables avoiding the tragedy of the commons[6]. [1]: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/d/windows-11-pro/dg7gmgf0d8h4 [2]: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/business/compare-all-microsoft... [3]: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/windows/windows-11-enterprise [4]: https://www.suse.com/shop/desktop/ [5]: https://packagehub.suse.com/ [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 8:22 AM Eric Schirra wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 17. Januar 2024, 13:17:55 CET schrieb Neal Gompa:

...

On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 6:47 AM Eric Schirra wrote:

...

Am Mittwoch, 17. Januar 2024, 11:58:27 CET schrieb Neal Gompa:

...

...

...

SLED is listed on the product lifecycle page, but I cannot tell you anything about its future (and neither about a potential SLED 16). I have no insight into that.

You are, another ambiguity.

...

> That's another cost that you can't get financed. And also far too > expensive. So only Leap remains.

The price is there, because it takes a lot of work to deliver and maintain a desktop on top of an enterprise distribution code base. Hence relying on a free & community provided distribution to provide the same is a business risk at best. I can see why people would get mad, when features that used to be there go away, but if there is no one who is willing to work on these features for free, then that's the way it is. I.e. if you want a Leap 16 with a desktop, think about contributing to the new Leap.

In an ideal world, it works like this. But not in reality. You have to make it clear why you want Linux. And that doesn't always help. Fighting against the other known operating system takes a lot of strength and idealism. And if you have to fight for licenses for the SuseManager, which in my opinion are really steep, then you won't get a SLED through. Especially if you still want to reach your retirement.

And Leap has worked excellently so far. What's better about SELD? What advantage should I have? Especially if you also have to work with external contractors and their subcontractors? As I said, in a perfect, ideal world, you could do it that way. But unfortunately not in reality.

And if Suse thinks it has to cut everything, then, yes, you just have to change. Other mothers also have beautiful daughters.

To put it bluntly, this thinking is why funding for desktop Linux has been in a downward spiral. It's also why generally the professional Linux distributions have been shrinking and cutting things. If there's no money to afford continuing to do the work, then they have no choice but to cut it. This is true at SUSE, Red Hat, and even Canonical.

Have you ever wondered why KDE was deprecated in RHEL? It wasn't just because KDE Plasma 5 was so big that they couldn't make the jump for RHEL 8, it was also because people were not paying for RHEL for the desktop, so they had no budget for more people. It happened again with the layoffs at Red Hat last year. SUSE is no different. And Ubuntu? Canonical already did their big layoff in 2017 where they laid off hundreds of staff related to the desktop.

A big part of why both Red Hat and SUSE are moving toward Flatpaks and such is not because they necessarily want to strip down the desktop, but because the pool of money for the desktop has been shrinking this past decade as customers keep going to "free" options. Same for Ubuntu with Snaps.

Without the money for the people, you have no choice but to do less. FOSS is great only if someone is willing to pick up the tab *somewhere* for the work done. If nobody does, then we may not have all the great stuff we have anymore.

In advance. Personally, I am in favor of Linux and fight for it at every turn. Personally, I am not on the financial side. Quite the opposite. My home has been W***** free for about 20 years. But please take off your blinkers. Idealism counts for nothing in the business world. Nothing at all. Only facts count. In this case, money. And if Linux ends up being even more expensive than W****. How are you supposed to justify that? There's no money for it. Whether better and more fail-safe etc. Nobody is interested in that. Unfortunately.

Okay, let's talk about costs here. I'll use USD since that's what I have access to offhand.

Windows 11 Pro retail is $199[1] with Microsoft 365 Standard is $150/year for a single user[2]. This ignores Windows-as-a-Service, which is what Windows Enterprise is now[3]. I'm aware that when larger enterprises pay for Microsoft 365 subscriptions, these two are bundled in an annual per-user pricing model, but it's not important for the purposes of this illustration (since it costs much more anyway!).

A single SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop subscription is $129/year for a single system[4]. This includes a maintained Linux desktop offering with both the GNOME desktop and LibreOffice included. And you still have access to PackageHub to get you a lot more on top[5].

Obviously, with businesses having a large number of seats, they can get discounts. So let's presume that Microsoft gives you a 10% discount with 1000 seats and throws in Windows 11 Pro for $50. (Note I have no idea what the actual discount rates are, they vary across organizations!) So it's now $50 + $135/year. SLED with no discount is still cheaper, but I bet you'd get a discount anyway, which would make that cheaper and maintain the cost lead.

I'm actually on their side. And if their invoices are correct, nobody in larger companies cares. Besides, who says that the desktops are in the office? And if I take their bill and add the costs for the SuseManager, then I actually come to roughly the same amount. How am I supposed to explain to someone that Linux is better and we'd better get it? As I said, I am completely on your side. But nobody at the decision-making level is interested in real facts. Unfortunately. But that's the reality.

That's fair. Unfortunately, the cost model varies for mass managed Windows depending on tooling. On the flip side, I've often made the argument that paying for a subscription for RHEL or SLE results in being able to actually influence the platform in a way that paying for Windows doesn't. Unfortunately, not everyone groks the magnitude of the impact of that well. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

When one could buy a physical release, we used to buy them for each seat. There haven't been physical releases for a while. OOC, which SUSE paid offering best suits the desktop? I don't mean a server edition where I have installed a desktop as well. But I mean one geared to the desktop user. We do exist.... On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 3:35 PM Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2024-01-17 11:58, Neal Gompa wrote:

...

On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 5:35 AM Eric Schirra wrote:

...

Am Mittwoch, 17. Januar 2024, 09:03:11 CET schrieb Dan Čermák via

openSUSE

...

Factory:

...

...

Without the money for the people, you have no choice but to do less. FOSS is great only if someone is willing to pick up the tab *somewhere* for the work done. If nobody does, then we may not have all the great stuff we have anymore.

I was happy to buy SuSE Professional when it existed.

-- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from openSUSE 15.5 (Laicolasse))

-- Roger Oberholtzer

In most cases people don't mean SLED but most likely SLES Workstation Extension. That would be the equivalent of what people are used to with Leap 15+GNOME. Lubos On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 4:00 PM Neal Gompa wrote:

On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 9:46 AM Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

When one could buy a physical release, we used to buy them for each seat. There haven't been physical releases for a while.

OOC, which SUSE paid offering best suits the desktop? I don't mean a server edition where I have installed a desktop as well. But I mean one geared to the desktop user. We do exist....

I mentioned it upthread[1], but SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop[2] is available as a dedicated offering.

[1]: https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/factory@lists.opensuse.org/message/... [2]: https://www.suse.com/shop/desktop/

-- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

-- Best regards Luboš Kocman openSUSE Leap Release Manager

On 1/17/24 15:18, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

That reminds me, I would always buy the SuSE boxed CD/DVD with documentation sets.  I'm looking at a SUSE Linux 10.0 box right now!  I'd by a dozen of them and hand them out at work to help spread the word.  I started with 5.2. I probably bought 100 or so over the years.  (funded by my employer, by the way)

I have 9.3 and 10.0 on my shelf.  I also used to buy the boxed sets.  I also remember going into a bookstore and seeing various distros on the shelf.