On Mon, 25 Feb 2008, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

I would like to re-open a quite debated question about Java and Flash plugins on 64-bit systems.

It was already discussed in the recent past ( http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2007-09/msg00413.html ), but no real and effective solution was found.

Considering that 64 bit systems are becoming widely adopted as notebooks and desktops, I don't see the point of removing what was, in my opinion, one of the advantages of using openSUSE 64 bit in comparison with other distributions. It was the only one offering java and flash working out of the box.

At the moment, flash plugin is supported through a plugin, which adds a degree of complexity and doesn't reliably work (some sites just show a white rectangle, and the plugin often freezes using a lot of CPU).

Well, at least calling up youtube worked fine for me, but OTOH I'm normally not a firefox user, so I can't tell how good it is for everyday life.

Java is not working at all.

Did you ever try installing java-1_7_0-icedtea-plugin-1.5_b24-1.x86_64.rpm ? Seems to work for me and is definitely a lot better than crippling my box with even more 32bit things ... -- with kind regards (mit freundlichem Grinsen), Ruediger Oertel (ro@novell.com,ro@suse.de,bugfinder@t-online.de) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Linux Fatou 2.6.24.1-4-default #1 SMP 2008/02/14 16:18:52 UTC x86_64 Key fingerprint = 17DC 6553 86A7 384B 53C5 CA5C 3CE4 F2E7 23F2 B417 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)

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On 2/26/2008 at 06:16, Alberto Passalacqua wrote: That's why I proposed to go back to the 32 bit firefox also on 64 bit systems. In the current situation you get no java, a partly working flash, and an unstable adobe reader plugin. It doesn't look a good situation.

I actually think it's better to fix nspluginwrapper should there be a problem. I have in plus also a VLC media player installed with a 64bit plugin for firefox. Downgrading firefox to 32bit means, I need VLC in 32bit as well... then I can as well just install the 32bit version of openSUSE... and according flash: I actually never had a problem with it on the factory installation... I'm frequent user of youtube and of some flash game sites.. and this seems to work fine. Dominique --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Il giorno mar, 26/02/2008 alle 08.37 +0100, Dominique Leuenberger ha scritto:

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On 2/26/2008 at 06:16, Alberto Passalacqua wrote: That's why I proposed to go back to the 32 bit firefox also on 64 bit systems. In the current situation you get no java, a partly working flash, and an unstable adobe reader plugin. It doesn't look a good situation.

I actually think it's better to fix nspluginwrapper should there be a problem. I have in plus also a VLC media player installed with a 64bit plugin for firefox. Downgrading firefox to 32bit means, I need VLC in 32bit as well... then I can as well just install the 32bit version of openSUSE...

That's ok, but it's always an unofficial workaround, and I would like to avoid it in a default installation. It caused issues, and it will probably cause again with the switch to new firefox releases As reported by Sbrabec in the first bug report, the developer is not that fast to answer too...

and according flash: I actually never had a problem with it on the factory installation... I'm frequent user of youtube and of some flash game sites.. and this seems to work fine.

Try google finance for example. I can't see plots of stocks for example. Regards, Alberto --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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On 2/26/2008 at 17:18, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

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I actually think it's better to fix nspluginwrapper should there be a

Il giorno mar, 26/02/2008 alle 08.37 +0100, Dominique Leuenberger ha problem. I have in plus also a VLC media player installed with a 64bit plugin for firefox. Downgrading firefox to 32bit means, I need VLC in 32bit as well... then I can as well just install the 32bit version of openSUSE...

That's ok, but it's always an unofficial workaround, and I would like to avoid it in a default installation. It caused issues, and it will probably cause again with the switch to new firefox releases

well: having firefox 32 bit, you'll just get all the multimedia users on you, complaining that the 64bit vlc plugin, or mplayer plugin, or XYZ plugin is not working anymore... I don't think that's a good tradeoff... I think the way with nspluginwrapper is the way to go, and for Java push the 1.7 inside, which is rumored to work in 64bit installations... and have never get tired of asking the proprietary providers if they would finally like to provide 64bit applications too... I know this seems to be incredible impossible for some companies (from patching some source I also know why)

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and according flash: I actually never had a problem with it on the factory installation... I'm frequent user of youtube and of some flash game sites.. and this seems to work fine.

Try google finance for example. I can't see plots of stocks for example.

I used that site quiet regular myself for a while... can't remember any problems with it (but I'm also not sure if I ever tried it on the 64bit system)... I'll give it a try this evening.. just to be sure... Dominique --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

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My Flash works also pretty well with latest nspluginwrapper.

As said, it seems to depend on the site. Look (again) at the bugreport.

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nspluginwrapper gets crazy very rarely. The left issue for me is the not-really-quite-well-working Acrobat.

If rarely means everytime you open a pdf in firefox, you're right :-)

Yes, Reader it is used less frequently than Flash, but there are important services using online PDF forms. I simply failed to find any nspluginwrapper version, which passes the focus test for both Flash and Reader. And I also failed to find a fix. Debugging of translation of native plugin calls to 32-bit x86 calls, sending them over socket, decoding XEmbed events, simulating X focus events needs really deep insight. nspluginwrapper is very sophisticated piece of code. -- Best Regards / S pozdravem, Stanislav Brabec software developer --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s. r. o. e-mail: sbrabec@suse.cz Lihovarská 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 966, +49 911 740538747 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Tirsdag den 26. Februar 2008 17:17:22 skrev Alberto Passalacqua:

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well: having firefox 32 bit, you'll just get all the multimedia users

on you, complaining that the 64bit vlc plugin, or mplayer plugin, or XYZ plugin is not working anymore... I don't think that's a good tradeoff...

There are valid alternatives, like totem-browser-plugin, which offers a better integration than mplayer. Moreover all these users didn't tell a word about that when the discussion was opened months ago.

Does 64-bit totem plugin work with 32-bit firefox? Another alternative might be the Firefox extension MediaPlayerConnectivity which allows you to select different players per format, regardless of architechture.. However my preferred solution to the problem is simply to steer people towards using 32-bit openSUSE altogether. By communicating that 64-bit is for: - powerusers who like to look for a little trouble - free software zealots (as almost all the problems are related to non-free software) - servers All users of the "it should just work"-kind should just use 32-bit. I even think the dual arch DVD9 should default to 32-bit installation on 64-bit hardware - so we don't have n00bs running 64-bit without even knowing it, and wondering why they can't get their homebank to work with Firefox. There's a reason why people don't get 64-bit MS Windows with their boxes. Dunno why they must insist on running 64-bit openSUSE, when running 32-bit MS Windows doesn't seem to bother them any. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

I had the same on a 10.3: Sometimes it worked for 5 seconds and then the white rectangle showed up.

I'm referring to 10.3 too. Regards, Alberto --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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There's a reason why people don't get 64-bit MS Windows with their boxes.

Well, you get 64 bit Vista with Lenovo Laptops. And yes, you can't get a Cisco VPN client.

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Dunno why they must insist on running 64-bit openSUSE, when running 32-bit MS Windows doesn't seem to bother them any.

That's completely different. Windows on 64 bit has issues with office too, while Linux is known to work better on those systems. Moreover many 64 bit users have workstations (not all of them are home users), and they still need java, flash and such because their workstation is also their PC.

That's the situation for most users here. They need 64 bit for their self written programs, but need a fully working browser on the exactly same machine. -- Best regards, Andreas Vetter Fakultaet fuer Physik und Astronomie Universitaet Wuerzburg --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander wrote:

Tirsdag den 26. Februar 2008 17:17:22 skrev Alberto Passalacqua:

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well: having firefox 32 bit, you'll just get all the multimedia users on you, complaining that the 64bit vlc plugin, or mplayer plugin, or XYZ plugin is not working anymore... I don't think that's a good tradeoff...

There are valid alternatives, like totem-browser-plugin, which offers a better integration than mplayer. Moreover all these users didn't tell a word about that when the discussion was opened months ago.

Does 64-bit totem plugin work with 32-bit firefox?

32-bit plugins as are incompatible with 64-bit apps like totem, firefox, etc. 32-bit modules are incompatible with 64-bit kernels just the same.

Another alternative might be the Firefox extension MediaPlayerConnectivity which allows you to select different players per format, regardless of architechture..

However my preferred solution to the problem is simply to steer people towards using 32-bit openSUSE altogether. By communicating that 64-bit is for: - powerusers who like to look for a little trouble - free software zealots (as almost all the problems are related to non-free software) - servers

What problem? Some developers have been slow in making their apps 64-bit. If AMD had gone the way of Intel back then, it wouldn't have been possible to run 32-bit apps on 64-bit machines.

All users of the "it should just work"-kind should just use 32-bit. I even think the dual arch DVD9 should default to 32-bit installation on 64-bit hardware - so we don't have n00bs running 64-bit without even knowing it, and wondering why they can't get their homebank to work with Firefox.

openSUSE 64-bit caters for both 32-bit and 64-bit apps once you select 32-bit compatibility. Longer term most 32-bit apps will disappear.

There's a reason why people don't get 64-bit MS Windows with their boxes. Dunno why they must insist on running 64-bit openSUSE, when running 32-bit MS Windows doesn't seem to bother them any. ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Some statement that is, comparison of the sloth with the hare, we could add viruses, malware, spyware and crashes just to be on the same level. That's MS's problem, they have had a hard time producing a robust 32-bit OS in around 20 years of trying, so why not get that sorta OK first before trying something new. People have to take whatever MS gives them, warts and all, so they have to be happy with what they are given. Windows is MS's business, it's not the business of openSUSE to ape what they do. So, if you are happy using 32-bit openSUSE on a 64-bit box, you are free to do so - it crawled on a 64-bit 10.0 box that only had a CD-RW drive, so 64-bit couldn't be installed. I've just upgraded that box to 64-bit 10.3 for use by a complete novice. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008, Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

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On 2/26/2008 at 19:06, Alberto Passalacqua wrote: I had the same on a 10.3: Sometimes it worked for 5 seconds and then the white rectangle showed up.

I'm referring to 10.3 too.

Oh.. I was sure everybody on THIS list would be discussing about FACTORY... my fault.

with alpha2 flash does not work at all on my 64bit machine. -- Regards, Andreas Vetter --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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Martin Schlander 02/26/08 4:52 PM >>> Tirsdag den 26. Februar 2008 17:17:22 skrev Alberto Passalacqua: well: having firefox 32 bit, you'll just get all the multimedia users

on you, complaining that the 64bit vlc plugin, or mplayer plugin, or XYZ plugin is not working anymore... I don't think that's a good tradeoff...

There are valid alternatives, like totem- browser- plugin, which offers a better integration than mplayer. Moreover all these users didn't tell a word about that when the discussion was opened months ago.

Does 64- bit totem plugin work with 32- bit firefox? Another alternative might be the Firefox extension MediaPlayerConnectivity which allows you to select different players per format, regardless of architechture.. However my preferred solution to the problem is simply to steer people towards using 32- bit openSUSE altogether. By communicating that 64- bit is for: - powerusers who like to look for a little trouble - free software zealots (as almost all the problems are related to non- free software) - servers All users of the "it should just work"- kind should just use 32- bit. I even think the dual arch DVD9 should default to 32- bit installation on 64- bit hardware - so we don't have n00bs running 64- bit without even knowing it, and wondering why they can't get their homebank to work with Firefox. There's a reason why people don't get 64- bit MS Windows with their boxes. Dunno why they must insist on running 64- bit openSUSE, when running 32- bit MS Windows doesn't seem to bother them any. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e- mail: opensuse- factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e- mail: opensuse- factory+help@opensuse.org Sound good but this is exactly the reason while noone is developing for 64-bit. becuase if it does not run and the want it than they will go back to 32-bit. If everyone is running back to 32-bit all the time - nothing will happen and no application developer will bother with 64-bit. So i think this really is the wrong way. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

We are coming along, bit by 64bit, java was the last missing piece.. Who is trying to turn the clock back here?

That's not the point. It would perfect to have everything for 64 bit. We have not, and we need those tools. Living without them, or with them affected by serious issues (flash not working properly, adobe hanging, java not working yet) is just a nonsense for me. Plus, having them working out of the box was a big added value of SuSE, partly lost in 10.3 and probably not back in 11.0, for what I read (not an official comment on this!).

| All users of the "it should just work"-kind should just use 32-bit. I even | think the dual arch DVD9 should default to 32-bit installation on 64-bit | hardware - so we don't have n00bs running 64-bit without even knowing it, and | wondering why they can't get their homebank to work with Firefox.

This is the most stupid reason i ever heard...

No, it's not. Many users just don't know/notice the difference between a 64 bit and a 32 bit system, especially among desktop users. They just use what the system installs or put the 64 bit version because it's so cool to use a 64 bit version. Then they complain about lack of functionalities, and the responsibility is attributed to suse, not certainly to sun, adobe or whatever else.

I realy cannot see what on earth this has got to do with it.... Windows never succeeded to create a wellworking 64bit version.. Linux has, besides the nonsens you write there is the ice tea java 1.7, which works allright enough..

Java is _part_ of the problem. There are knows issues with flash and adobe reader as well (see bugzilla). On that side the problem is far from being solved. With kind regards, Alberto --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Alberto Passalacqua schreef: |> We are coming along, bit by 64bit, java was the last missing piece.. |> Who is trying to turn the clock back here? | | That's not the point. It would perfect to have everything for 64 bit. We | have not, and we need those tools. | Living without them, or with them affected by serious issues (flash not | working properly, adobe hanging, java not working yet) is just a | nonsense for me. | Plus, having them working out of the box was a big added value of SuSE, | partly lost in 10.3 and probably not back in 11.0, for what I read (not | an official comment on this!). Despite the fact that some apps, which are 'third party', but well integrated in all-day use, are not working allright 'yet', is no, and may *not* ever be a reason to 'Dump' the 64bit os. In 10.3 Flash 9 works OK, PDF Reader works OK, and since last week, Ice-tea. 11.0 has issues because of qt versions? changing towards the future very fast, and: we notice the negative side-effects from the M$/Novell deal, many people that were important for development went another way.. So we have to live with that. Look what has been accomplished in the last few years, amazing! Hardware becoming better and better, and affordable to allmost everybody... Kde4 begins to look and feel realy 'cool', works almost OK, apart from some nasty desktopsettings bugs, but as it seems to me now, with the speed the bugs get killed: We might get ready at the deadline.. The pressure is up, sure, that has to be... Al of this together: No reason to dump 64Bit OS. Wait and see, the performance of a fi 64x2 CPU is magnificent. Would we throw away all the work that has been done to be able to manifacture the cpu's and the software, for a few plugins? I don't think so.. Wait and see, they are going to be ready when realy needed. Just think that we walk a very big step ahead of the masses, we create, and they will follow....and we do not ever quit, until the job is done.. | |> | All users of the "it should just work"-kind should just use 32-bit. I |> even |> | think the dual arch DVD9 should default to 32-bit installation on 64-bit |> | hardware - so we don't have n00bs running 64-bit without even knowing |> it, and |> | wondering why they can't get their homebank to work with Firefox. |> |> This is the most stupid reason i ever heard... | | No, it's not. Many users just don't know/notice the difference between a | 64 bit and a 32 bit system, especially among desktop users. They just | use what the system installs or put the 64 bit version because it's so | cool to use a 64 bit version. Then they complain about lack ofEnigmail | functionalities, and the responsibility is attributed to suse, not | certainly to sun, adobe or whatever else. If, users are turned away from M$ fi, they will learn very quickly, and they will be glad they did... And why wouldn't they use what the system installs? When one chooses the hardware, one chooses the os... At least with linux there is a choice, *and* there is progress! Offcourse they complain, and if we show them the way to the '3th-parties', they will complain there. The more complains, the better the chance, something gets done about it. About Adobe Acrobat we all know that the issues are not only Linux, but M$ as well, 7 did not work at all. A beta version was shipped to the public. Many problems with companies dependable on PDF, but that also got solved. | |> I realy cannot see what on earth this has got to do with it.... |> Windows never succeeded to create a wellworking 64bit version.. |> Linux has, besides the nonsens you write there is the ice tea java 1.7, |> which works allright enough.. | | Java is _part_ of the problem. There are knows issues with flash and | adobe reader as well (see bugzilla). On that side the problem is far | from being solved. There is only one solution: Find, Report and *Kill* the bugs, one by one.. ;) | | With kind regards, | Alberto. Also, Robby. - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. ~ Besturingssysteem: Linux 2.6.22.17-0.1-default x86_64 ~ Current user: monkey9@AMD64x2-sfn1 ~ System: openSUSE 10.3 (x86_64) ~ KDE: 4.0.1 (KDE 4.0.1) "release 9.1" ~ OS: Linux 2.6.22.17-0.1-default x86_64 ~ Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@AMD64x2-sfn1 ~ Systeem: openSUSE 10.3 (x86_64) ~ KDE: 3.5.7 "release 72.6" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHxyleX5/X5X6LpDgRAv1LAJ9u66a0t+uz14S7e1vVyEn+c6OeSgCgyLu8 xCFi6ZZKLJ39D/ZndFVNj6k= =bnx4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Despite the fact that some apps, which are 'third party', but well integrated in all-day use, are not working allright 'yet', is no, and may *not* ever be a reason to 'Dump' the 64bit os.

Martin was suggesting that SOME users WITHOUT specific need of 64 bit os would encounter a lot less difficulties with the 32 bit version, and he's absolutely right.

In 10.3 Flash 9 works OK, PDF Reader works OK, and since last week, Ice-tea. 11.0 has issues because of qt versions?

No. Flash 9 doesn't work well (bug in bugzilla) and acroread doesn't work well (bug in bugzilla). Both bugs were reported in my first email.

changing towards the future very fast, and: we notice the negative side-effects from the M$/Novell deal, many people that were important for development went another way..

What has the deal to do with a practical discussion to find a practical solution is out of my comprehension.

So we have to live with that.

No. We want to live with that. It's a choice.

Al of this together: No reason to dump 64Bit OS.

Noone wants to dump the OS. It's just a temporary and working solution, waiting for things are ready.

Wait and see, the performance of a fi 64x2 CPU is magnificent. Would we throw away all the work that has been done to be able to manifacture the cpu's and the software, for a few plugins?

Those "few plugins" are necessary to 95% of the users. That performance probably to half of the rest. And suse should target, at least namely, the first part.

I don't think so.. Wait and see, they are going to be ready when realy needed.

Why should we believe to that? SuSE last three releases were, with some exception for 10.3, disappointing (read reviews, I'm not the only one to think that). Tell me why should I believe that 11 will be ready, well tested, with everything in place.

Just think that we walk a very big step ahead of the masses, we create, and they will follow....and we do not ever quit, until the job is done..

From my point of view, we need a reality check. The "masses", as you call them, are using other distributions (read ubuntu), and they're not all idiots. They look for simplicity, they found it there. openSUSE sometimes looks too much for perfection, and instead of finding it, it messes things up.

If, users are turned away from M$ fi, they will learn very quickly, and they will be glad they did... And why wouldn't they use what the system installs? When one chooses the hardware, one chooses the os... At least with linux there is a choice, *and* there is progress! Offcourse they complain, and if we show them the way to the '3th-parties', they will complain there. The more complains, the better the chance, something gets done about it.

About Adobe Acrobat we all know that the issues are not only Linux, but M$ as well, 7 did not work at all. A beta version was shipped to the public. Many problems with companies dependable on PDF, but that also got solved.

It's not a question of comparing Windows and Linux. I think we should do OUR part, and MS will do its part to make users life easier. But the question is, are we doing our part? Some choices tell me we aren't.

There is only one solution: Find, Report and *Kill* the bugs, one by one.. ;)

Please, read the bug about the plugin wrapper, for example. It's not so easy to fix it seems, and it requires time also according to N, and it's recognised it doesn't work properly with flash and acroread. Regards, Alberto --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org