Re: [opensuse-factory] what you can do with KDE3 that you can't do with KDE4.
On Sunday 01 April 2012 20:00:52 you wrote:
There is no search in classic menu in kde4, unlike kde3. And it seems it is not going to be implemented because the kde4 people regard the classic desktop paradigm as a "left-over". That said it is more reasonable to stick with kde3 for those who want a desktop focused on classic approach.
There's no significant difference between the classic and the new menu. Both have applications grouped in categories.
You have extra groupings in the new one (ie: favourites, etc), but everything in the classic is in the new one. Maybe the first version of the new one was lacking, but current ones are quite usable.
Well is is more energetically-efficient to browse the classic menu due to less clicks and also easier return from multiply-folded submenus. Also there is no need for scrolling because all items are placed compactly. Also the search bar shows you the location of the item you are searching so you can find it next time without search, while kickoff only lists the items you are searching for, and you would have to repeat the search next time you need the same item.
I think this whole discussion is misguided. KDE3 users simply don't know what KDE4 is today - they only remember the first KDE 4.0.
The last release I looked at was KDE 4.7 in 12.1. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Ilya Chernykh
Well is is more energetically-efficient to browse the classic menu due to less clicks and also easier return from multiply-folded submenus. Also there is no need for scrolling because all items are placed compactly.
Also the search bar shows you the location of the item you are searching so you can find it next time without search, while kickoff only lists the items you are searching for, and you would have to repeat the search next time you need the same item.
Which is all a very minor difference, hardly worth the huge effort it is to maintain KDE3. Of course, there are other reasons to maintain KDE3 and I have voiced them in this list myself (like supporting some apps that are useful and have never migrated to Qt4). But, in any case, these flamewars always seem like nitpicking wars on both sides. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday 01 Apr 2012 20:11:10 Ilya Chernykh wrote:
Well is is more energetically-efficient to browse the classic menu due to less clicks and also easier return from multiply-folded submenus. Also there is no need for scrolling because all items are placed compactly.
And yet the usability study performed when the slab style menu was developed showed the exact opposite of this claim. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday 01 April 2012 20:46:10 Graham Anderson wrote:
Well is is more energetically-efficient to browse the classic menu due to less clicks and also easier return from multiply-folded submenus. Also there is no need for scrolling because all items are placed compactly.
And yet the usability study performed when the slab style menu was developed showed the exact opposite of this claim.
That it needs less clicks? In kickoff you need to click to enter each submenu and a click to return from each submenu by one one level. Also you have to scroll. Did the study show an opposite? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Ilya Chernykh
And yet the usability study performed when the slab style menu was developed showed the exact opposite of this claim.
That it needs less clicks? In kickoff you need to click to enter each submenu and a click to return from each submenu by one one level. Also you have to scroll.
Not number of clicks, usability entails more precise measures like that. It's quite possible that the dense packing in the classical menu hinders efficient navigation. Users have to read more, they have to search (visually) more, and they have to aim better. Lots of people are really clumsy with the mouse pointer, so, usability gets hurt by packing densely. Just shooting in the dark, but I'd bet that's what the usability test came up with. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday 01 Apr 2012 20:47:51 Ilya Chernykh wrote:
On Sunday 01 April 2012 20:46:10 Graham Anderson wrote:
Well is is more energetically-efficient to browse the classic menu due to less clicks and also easier return from multiply-folded submenus. Also there is no need for scrolling because all items are placed compactly.
And yet the usability study performed when the slab style menu was developed showed the exact opposite of this claim.
That it needs less clicks? In kickoff you need to click to enter each submenu and a click to return from each submenu by one one level. Also you have to scroll.
Did the study show an opposite?
I didn't word my reply very well, I meant the usability study showed that it was more efficient to navigate (which indicates more energy efficiency, not less). And yes you click more, but you move the mouse less. You also don't have menu failures where the mouse leaves the current level and you have to then go back to find the item from the previous tier (which can be time consuming and *very* annoying). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday 01 April 2012 20:59:50 Graham Anderson wrote:
I didn't word my reply very well, I meant the usability study showed that it was more efficient to navigate (which indicates more energy efficiency, not less).
And yes you click more, but you move the mouse less.
With bigger items and need for scrolling you definitely move mouse more.
You also don't have menu failures where the mouse leaves the current level and you have to then go back to find the item from the previous tier (which can be time consuming and *very* annoying).
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 04/01/2012 10:07 AM, Ilya Chernykh wrote:
You also don't have menu
failures where the mouse leaves the current level and you have to then go back to find the item from the previous tier (which can be time consuming and *very* annoying).
Ah! I'm glad you mention "menu failures" Graham. This has been bugging me for more than 15-years! Does anyone remember Sun's desktop environment OpenWindows? It had a menu anchoring feature called a "pushpin". http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19455-01/806-2901/6jc3a4lqi/index.html Click on the menu pushpin and it anchors it open until you un-push the pin. You could anchor a whole hierarchy of menus. I've can't fathom why this dandy feature hasn't been picked up by other desktop environments! Does Sun have a copyright on it? Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday 01 Apr 2012 12:02:11 Lew Wolfgang wrote:
Ah! I'm glad you mention "menu failures" Graham. This has been bugging me for more than 15-years! Does anyone remember Sun's desktop environment OpenWindows? It had a menu anchoring feature called a "pushpin".
http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19455-01/806-2901/6jc3a4lqi/index.html
Click on the menu pushpin and it anchors it open until you un-push the pin. You could anchor a whole hierarchy of menus.
I've can't fathom why this dandy feature hasn't been picked up by other desktop environments! Does Sun have a copyright on it?
You could do this with KDE 1's menus, but having asked in #kde-dinosaurs it was implemented as a hack in some widget styles which caused a lot of problems when the user changed the style and the menu went away. Not sure if it worked for application menus, which would of course go away when the application providing the menu window exited. Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Board, Booster, KDE Developer SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday 01 April 2012 23:02:11 Lew Wolfgang wrote:
You also don't have menu
failures where the mouse leaves the current level and you have to then go back to find the item from the previous tier (which can be time consuming and *very* annoying).
Ah! I'm glad you mention "menu failures" Graham. This has been bugging me for more than 15-years! Does anyone remember Sun's desktop environment OpenWindows? It had a menu anchoring feature called a "pushpin".
http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19455-01/806-2901/6jc3a4lqi/index.html
Click on the menu pushpin and it anchors it open until you un-push the pin. You could anchor a whole hierarchy of menus.
I've can't fathom why this dandy feature hasn't been picked up by other desktop environments! Does Sun have a copyright on it?
By the way, in KDE 2.2.2 the menu remains open at selected item until you unpush the K-menu button. You even can start other programs and the menu will still remain open. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2012/04/01 12:02 (GMT-0700) Lew Wolfgang composed:
Does anyone remember Sun's desktop environment OpenWindows? It had a menu anchoring feature called a "pushpin".
http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19455-01/806-2901/6jc3a4lqi/index.html
Click on the menu pushpin and it anchors it open until you un-push the pin. You could anchor a whole hierarchy of menus.
I've can't fathom why this dandy feature hasn't been picked up by other desktop environments! Does Sun have a copyright on it?
I think all the best menu paradigms must have been copyrighted or patented at least two decades ago. On the machine I'm typing this message from, running the "dead" IBM OS that refuses to die, menus don't close until a mouse click or keystroke occurs. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday 01 April 2012 20:46:10 Graham Anderson wrote:
Well is is more energetically-efficient to browse the classic menu due to less clicks and also easier return from multiply-folded submenus. Also there is no need for scrolling because all items are placed compactly.
And yet the usability study performed when the slab style menu was developed showed the exact opposite of this claim.
In kickoff you cannot see a submenu's content by just passing by. You have to click, look in the munu's content (sometimes, scrolling), see that it does not include what you want, click back, enter another submenu... In classical menu you can see the contents of all submenus just by slowly moving mouse up or down along a parent menu. All the submenuse will open and close by themselves while you move the mouse. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday 01 Apr 2012 20:52:55 Ilya Chernykh wrote:
On Sunday 01 April 2012 20:46:10 Graham Anderson wrote:
Well is is more energetically-efficient to browse the classic menu due to less clicks and also easier return from multiply-folded submenus. Also there is no need for scrolling because all items are placed compactly.
And yet the usability study performed when the slab style menu was developed showed the exact opposite of this claim.
In kickoff you cannot see a submenu's content by just passing by. You have to click, look in the munu's content (sometimes, scrolling), see that it does not include what you want, click back, enter another submenu...
In classical menu you can see the contents of all submenus just by slowly moving mouse up or down along a parent menu. All the submenuse will open and close by themselves while you move the mouse.
I'm trying to find the original study, so that we can discuss the findings, if anyone can find it before me please post it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday 01 Apr 2012 20:52:55 Ilya Chernykh wrote:
On Sunday 01 April 2012 20:46:10 Graham Anderson wrote:
Well is is more energetically-efficient to browse the classic menu due to less clicks and also easier return from multiply-folded submenus. Also there is no need for scrolling because all items are placed compactly.
And yet the usability study performed when the slab style menu was developed showed the exact opposite of this claim.
In kickoff you cannot see a submenu's content by just passing by. You have to click, look in the munu's content (sometimes, scrolling), see that it does not include what you want, click back, enter another submenu...
In classical menu you can see the contents of all submenus just by slowly moving mouse up or down along a parent menu. All the submenuse will open and close by themselves while you move the mouse.
Here's an old talk about the changes: http://conference2006.kde.org/conference/talks/33.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday 01 April 2012 21:09:05 Graham Anderson wrote:
In classical menu you can see the contents of all submenus just by slowly moving mouse up or down along a parent menu. All the submenuse will open and close by themselves while you move the mouse.
Here's an old talk about the changes:
Indeed. The study was based on predictable fact that Windows XP users use the menu more often than KDE users. It was concluded that Windows XP menu is better, and openSUSE needs a similar one. Notice that the Windows users were not asked which kind of menu they use - the XP-style or classic (which were both available in XP). I am quite sure that a study of Win2000 users would show the same result: they use the menu more often than KDE users. There are many factors why Linux users may use the menu less often: for example some programs have no menu entry and also because it is more difficult to place a shortcut in the menu in KDE than in Windows. Linux has more console utilities and so on. But the results were understood as that openSUSE needs to catch up with Windows. This was the agenda of the time. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Ilya Chernykh
There are many factors why Linux users may use the menu less often: for example some programs have no menu entry and also because it is more difficult to place a shortcut in the menu in KDE than in Windows. Linux has more console utilities and so on.
But the results were understood as that openSUSE needs to catch up with Windows. This was the agenda of the time.
That is true, I use the menu rather infrequently, mostly relying on launcher buttons in the bottom bar, desktop, or shortcuts. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (6)
-
Claudio Freire -
Felix Miata -
Graham Anderson -
Ilya Chernykh -
Lew Wolfgang -
Will Stephenson