[opensuse-factory] Is Tumbleweed more like "punctuated rolling"?
Hi everyone, so I was reading the openSUSE News page about "Tumbleweed Highlights ‘KDE Applications 14.12 snapshot’" in which they state:
The latest snapshot release of Tumbleweed has several updates. We dub this as the ‘KDE Applications 14.12 snapshot‘ for Tumbleweed since many are related to 14.12.
So does this mean that Tumbleweed is more of a "punctuated-rolling" release based on periodically updated snapshots or update packs, as opposed to the "trickle-rolling" release model of something like Arch, which always receives a few updates every day? I don't really care which is it, I'd just like to know. :) Thanks very much to everyone who makes both the stable releases and the stable rolling Tumbleweed work happen at openSUSE! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2015-01-22 at 12:10 -0500, S. wrote:
Hi everyone, so I was reading the openSUSE News page about "Tumbleweed Highlights ‘KDE Applications 14.12 snapshot’" in which they state:
The latest snapshot release of Tumbleweed has several updates. We dub this as the ‘KDE Applications 14.12 snapshot‘ for Tumbleweed since many are related to 14.12.
So does this mean that Tumbleweed is more of a "punctuated-rolling" release based on periodically updated snapshots or update packs, as opposed to the "trickle-rolling" release model of something like Arch, which always receives a few updates every day? I don't really care which is it, I'd just like to know. :)
To the best of my knowledge, the snapshot refers to the install .iso that you would grab. If you've already got Tumbleweed up and running on your system, there's daily, (sometimes hourly, sometimes, every fifteen minutes, et al) updates of all the stuff that went into that snapshot
Thanks very much to everyone who makes both the stable releases and the stable rolling Tumbleweed work happen at openSUSE!
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Ah, I see, the "snapshots" are the ISOs. Makes sense. And by the way, that's nice how the snapshot ISOs are always up to date, so that a new user gets a very up-to-date system as soon as he installs. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 22.01.2015 um 18:10 schrieb S.:
Hi everyone, so I was reading the openSUSE News page about "Tumbleweed Highlights ‘KDE Applications 14.12 snapshot’" in which they state:
The latest snapshot release of Tumbleweed has several updates. We dub this as the ‘KDE Applications 14.12 snapshot‘ for Tumbleweed since many are related to 14.12.
So does this mean that Tumbleweed is more of a "punctuated-rolling" release based on periodically updated snapshots or update packs, as opposed to the "trickle-rolling" release model of something like Arch, which always receives a few updates every day? I don't really care which is it, I'd just like to know. :)
You can see the changes in http://download.opensuse.org/factory/iso/ We try to release a new snapshot every day, but will only do so if it passes QA - which might delay things. Greetings, Stephan -- Ma muaß weiterkämpfen, kämpfen bis zum Umfalln, a wenn die ganze Welt an Arsch offen hat, oder grad deswegn. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 12:10 PM, S.
Hi everyone, so I was reading the openSUSE News page about "Tumbleweed Highlights ‘KDE Applications 14.12 snapshot’" in which they state:
The latest snapshot release of Tumbleweed has several updates. We dub this as the ‘KDE Applications 14.12 snapshot‘ for Tumbleweed since many are related to 14.12.
So does this mean that Tumbleweed is more of a "punctuated-rolling" release based on periodically updated snapshots or update packs, as opposed to the "trickle-rolling" release model of something like Arch, which always receives a few updates every day? I don't really care which is it, I'd just like to know. :)
Thanks very much to everyone who makes both the stable releases and the stable rolling Tumbleweed work happen at openSUSE!
As I understand it: Factory gets continuous updates, could be dozens/hundreds or more in a single day but typically less. As an example of big group of SRs take look at Staging:G currently: https://build.opensuse.org/project/show/openSUSE:Factory:Staging:G It has 120 SRs (updates) in it currently. They are being evaluated together. The entire Staging:G ring is being sent to autoQA while fixes are made that allow autoQA to pass for that cummulative group of packages. Once all the SRs in staging:G are manually approved and autoQA passes, all will be pushed to factory as a group. so when Staging:G is released to factory, factory will get 120 package updates in one whack. In addition to autoQA running on the staging rings, Factory is "snapshot" once a day or so and submitted to autoQA. If autoQA passes, then the snapshot is pushed to Tumbleweed. Thus when all is smooth every factory snapshot gets pushed to Tumbleweed and we end up with daily Tumbleweed releases. On the other hand, if something found its way into factory that causes it to fail autoQA, then Tumbleweed is static until factory is fixed. That might be a day or two later, or it might be a week or two later. Note that even while Factory is "broken" it continues to get updates so when factory finally does pass autoQA it might have a relatively large number of updates included. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2015-01-22 at 12:10 -0500, S. wrote:
Hi everyone, so I was reading the openSUSE News page about "Tumbleweed Highlights ‘KDE Applications 14.12 snapshot’" in which they state:
The latest snapshot release of Tumbleweed has several updates. We dub this as the ‘KDE Applications 14.12 snapshot‘ for Tumbleweed since many are related to 14.12.
So does this mean that Tumbleweed is more of a "punctuated-rolling" release based on periodically updated snapshots or update packs, as opposed to the "trickle-rolling" release model of something like Arch, which always receives a few updates every day? I don't really care which is it, I'd just like to know. :)
The integration process of a package into a tumbleweed 'snapshot' is
quite different to what e.g. Arch does.
Any (literally any, no permission or anything required) branches a
package, 'performs his fixes/updates' and submits this to the
'Development project' (openSUSE split the entire distribution in Devel
projects, which are mostly 'topic oriented', like KDE, GNOME, LXDE,
Kernel and some more collection based, like devel:languages:python).
At this stage, one of the 'package maintainers' will have to review the
submission and declare if they think it's a good idea or not (basically
the same as a github pullrequest). If accepted, merge it into the devel
project and forward it to openSUSE:Factory (where the 'snapshots' are
being 'forged')
At this stage, multiple bots will do some quick sanity checks (are the
source files referenced downloadable and unmodified, possibly gpg
signature checks, general policy compliance), then it goes for a
'opensuse-review-team' queue (a group of contributors well aware of the
openSUSE Packaging guidelines) who verify the rules are adhered and
discuss if something is wrong, accept if all is good (most common case).
In parallel, the package is evaluated for so called 'staging' (this
happens for a subset of packages, which are defined in the so-called
'rings'). Staging is there to ensure that integration of this package
does not break other packages (build and functionality) from the rings
(the 'outermost ring is basically everything that goes on the
installation DVD). If needed, packages can be submitted with fixes and
will be evaluated in the same staging area. Only when this is green, the
entire staging group is accepted into 'the Factory'.
If a package did not qualify to go through staging ('lesser important
leave packages not on the DVD'), then it will be accepted into Factory.
At this point, the entire tree is molded together in a 'FTP Tree', Live
ISOs and installation DVDs. Those newly forged images are handed over to
openQA for testing (currently a bit over 100 test collections are run,
ranging from simple 'media check' to RAID installations and 'upgrade
tests of earlier versions').
If all this comes back successful, the images are published on the usual
areas on download.opensuse.org
So, all in all, yes, it is 'rolling' in a way that any number of small
updates can get merged, but some teams like KDE and GNOME will attempt
to always try to submit a larger chunk to get in more 'defined' states.
The aim is to get a daily 'Tumbleweed snapshot' out.
All the testing goes on the cost of time of course; if you are THAT
eager to get updates even faster (and risking more breakages), you are
welcome to add some of the devel repositories to your installation
mix... but brace for impact :)
Hope that explains the thing a bit.
Cheers,
--
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger
On 22/01/15 12:38, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
On Thu, 2015-01-22 at 12:10 -0500, S. wrote:
Hi everyone, so I was reading the openSUSE News page about "Tumbleweed Highlights ‘KDE Applications 14.12 snapshot’" in which they state:
The latest snapshot release of Tumbleweed has several updates. We dub this as the ‘KDE Applications 14.12 snapshot‘ for Tumbleweed since many are related to 14.12.
So does this mean that Tumbleweed is more of a "punctuated-rolling" release based on periodically updated snapshots or update packs, as opposed to the "trickle-rolling" release model of something like Arch, which always receives a few updates every day? I don't really care which is it, I'd just like to know. :)
The integration process of a package into a tumbleweed 'snapshot' is quite different to what e.g. Arch does.
Any (literally any, no permission or anything required) branches a package, 'performs his fixes/updates' and submits this to the 'Development project' (openSUSE split the entire distribution in Devel projects, which are mostly 'topic oriented', like KDE, GNOME, LXDE, Kernel and some more collection based, like devel:languages:python).
At this stage, one of the 'package maintainers' will have to review the submission and declare if they think it's a good idea or not (basically the same as a github pullrequest). If accepted, merge it into the devel project and forward it to openSUSE:Factory (where the 'snapshots' are being 'forged')
At this stage, multiple bots will do some quick sanity checks (are the source files referenced downloadable and unmodified, possibly gpg signature checks, general policy compliance), then it goes for a 'opensuse-review-team' queue (a group of contributors well aware of the openSUSE Packaging guidelines) who verify the rules are adhered and discuss if something is wrong, accept if all is good (most common case).
In parallel, the package is evaluated for so called 'staging' (this happens for a subset of packages, which are defined in the so-called 'rings'). Staging is there to ensure that integration of this package does not break other packages (build and functionality) from the rings (the 'outermost ring is basically everything that goes on the installation DVD). If needed, packages can be submitted with fixes and will be evaluated in the same staging area. Only when this is green, the entire staging group is accepted into 'the Factory'.
If a package did not qualify to go through staging ('lesser important leave packages not on the DVD'), then it will be accepted into Factory.
At this point, the entire tree is molded together in a 'FTP Tree', Live ISOs and installation DVDs. Those newly forged images are handed over to openQA for testing (currently a bit over 100 test collections are run, ranging from simple 'media check' to RAID installations and 'upgrade tests of earlier versions').
If all this comes back successful, the images are published on the usual areas on download.opensuse.org
So, all in all, yes, it is 'rolling' in a way that any number of small updates can get merged, but some teams like KDE and GNOME will attempt to always try to submit a larger chunk to get in more 'defined' states. The aim is to get a daily 'Tumbleweed snapshot' out.
All the testing goes on the cost of time of course; if you are THAT eager to get updates even faster (and risking more breakages), you are welcome to add some of the devel repositories to your installation mix... but brace for impact :)
Hope that explains the thing a bit.
Wow, very cool process. Thanks for the great explanation. I personally prefer a cautiously stable rolling system with minimal breakage, so it sounds like a good balanced approach. This reminds me of another question: On a recent fresh install of Tumbleweed, I noticed there is an openSUSE-Factory-Update repo (http://download.opensuse.org/update/factory/) and also an openSUSE-Factory-Oss (http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/oss). I can't remember if I added the openSUSE-Factory-Oss repo or if it was enabled by default, but I do know that the openSUSE-Factory-Update repo was enabled by default. First, shouldn't those repos now be called "Tumbleweed" instead of "Factory"? And additional, if this is a rolling branch, why would there be a regular release repo and also an "update" repo? Isn't the http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/oss repo always up-to-date with the latest rolling release packages? Isn't an "update" repo on top of that redundant? Thanks again for the replies. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2015-01-22 at 13:00 -0500, S. wrote:
Hope that explains the thing a bit.
Wow, very cool process. Thanks for the great explanation. I personally prefer a cautiously stable rolling system with minimal breakage, so it sounds like a good balanced approach.
Glad that we provide what seems to be the right thing for you.
This reminds me of another question: On a recent fresh install of Tumbleweed, I noticed there is an openSUSE-Factory-Update repo (http://download.opensuse.org/update/factory/) and also an openSUSE-Factory-Oss (http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/oss). I can't remember if I added the openSUSE-Factory-Oss repo or if it was enabled by default, but I do know that the openSUSE-Factory-Update repo was enabled by default. First, shouldn't those repos now be called "Tumbleweed" instead of "Factory"? And additional, if this is a rolling branch, why would there be a regular release repo and also an "update" repo? Isn't the http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/oss repo always up-to-date with the latest rolling release packages? Isn't an "update" repo on top of that redundant?
ok, that's two answer... the name is reported in
https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=913561 and is basically a
remaining for the not that old fact that Factory was 'renamed' to the
outside to be called Tumbleweed (which was a slight different approach
before).
The /update channel is actually there to 'never be used'. It's a channel
'of last resort' in the unlikely case that we have some breakage in the
Factory repositories, which makes it impossible to publish, yet we have
a security update that we want to distribute to users in a much shorter
time. in THIS constellation we would publish the security update in the
update channel. Once Factory can be published again, the update channel
would be cleaned out as well.
Cheers,
--
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger
ok, that's two answer... the name is reported in https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=913561 and is basically a remaining for the not that old fact that Factory was 'renamed' to the outside to be called Tumbleweed (which was a slight different approach before).
The /update channel is actually there to 'never be used'. It's a channel 'of last resort' in the unlikely case that we have some breakage in the Factory repositories, which makes it impossible to publish, yet we have a security update that we want to distribute to users in a much shorter time. in THIS constellation we would publish the security update in the update channel. Once Factory can be published again, the update channel would be cleaned out as well.
Got it. Thanks a lot Dominique! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (5)
-
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger -
Greg Freemyer -
S. -
Shawn W Dunn -
Stephan Kulow