[opensuse-factory] Partitioner needs overhaul...

M9.

21 May 2007 21 May '07

15:25

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Well, We see that the suggestion to create a serious partitioner, like PQ Partition Magic was not so bad at all. I constantly run into problems, because it is much too difficult too change the sizes of existing partitions. Now, one has too back-up his/her home, throw away all partitions, and start all over again. And in the low ram case, one is not even capable to reach the partioner, which is off course not very sane.. More logic would be: Load the files nessesary to create what is needed first, (the room for the system, and i am still convinced, that there are seperate partitions needed, for: /boot,/,/opt,/usr,/var, (and evt /tmp), swap, and /home.) and then, one should be able to change sizes, without having to delete /home. It must be possible to reduce the size of /home, if more room for fi: /boot, /usr, and/or /var is needed. I realy mean that it is totaly anoying, not being able to change your available room, without spending hours to back-up the data you want to save.. I hope it is not too late for 10.3 final, to change this, but this hope might be in vane... I simply can not understand that nobody else finds this nessesary. - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.8-03-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 "release 45.4" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGUbnlX5/X5X6LpDgRApsrAJ9IerW8gwgNLHAiAWKi2qIRTET93ACg3hcN 51tNTkRPhvZABmIE5+9yzbM= =G5+3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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Steffen Winterfeldt

21 May 21 May

15:58

On Mon, 21 May 2007, M9. wrote:

...

We see that the suggestion to create a serious partitioner, like PQ Partition Magic was not so bad at all. I constantly run into problems, because it is much too difficult too change the sizes of existing partitions.

Now, one has too back-up his/her home, throw away all partitions, and start all over again.

And in the low ram case, one is not even capable to reach the partioner, which is off course not very sane..

More logic would be: Load the files nessesary to create what is needed first, (the room for the system, and i am still convinced, that there are seperate partitions needed, for: /boot,/,/opt,/usr,/var, (and evt /tmp), swap, and /home.) and then, one should be able to change sizes, without having to delete /home.

It must be possible to reduce the size of /home, if more room for fi: /boot, /usr, and/or /var is needed.

I realy mean that it is totaly anoying, not being able to change your available room, without spending hours to back-up the data you want to save..

IIRC there was a project once (long past) for a standalone-partitioner (based on parted, if I'm not mistaken). My personal opinion is that a really good partitioner is one of those projects that will never be done for linux.

...

I hope it is not too late for 10.3 final, to change this, but this hope might be in vane...

I simply can not understand that nobody else finds this nessesary.

Actually, I don't partition my drives that much. Like, apparently, most users. ;-) Steffen --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

M9.

16:41

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Steffen Winterfeldt schreef:

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IIRC there was a project once (long past) for a standalone-partitioner (based on parted, if I'm not mistaken).

My personal opinion is that a really good partitioner is one of those projects that will never be done for linux.

Actually, I don't partition my drives that much. Like, apparently, most users. ;-)

Steffen

Well, since i have noticed the enormous difference in performance and speed, i will allways use them, if possible. I realy can not understand that this huge difference, between 1 large partition and several smaller ones, is not noticed among you people.. If one would read the manual, that comes along with SuSE, it is recommended to use partitions... It is obvious, that those who write the manual, are not the same as those who use the system... Maybe the absence of a good partitioner, is the reason, no one uses them;-) Clear to me is that the problems that arise now, are caused by the absence of a good partitioner, and the knowledge, that a good partitioner is a must, for those who take their OS serious, because even M$ knows that it needs room to install, and offers all you need in a simplyfied version of fdisk, to delete, make and format partition(s), as many as you like. But afterwards, you are allways able to change the size, delete, move or create new partitions, if there is the need for it. To partition, is the basis for a useable OS. To be able to change the available room, is a must to keep the system tuned. I can not understand that this is not understood;-) Just imagine what happens: all files get all over the disk, which makes a mess, and makes time to find the file you want longer. Cann't you see this? - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.8-03-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 "release 45.4" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGUcvVX5/X5X6LpDgRAnhZAJ9/mF3pzW81HjlU7MBO4opx/DBB7gCePQ/i QeMKjTrv8qPVS4JnPMqMZ+8= =cPkD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Steffen Winterfeldt

16:50

On Mon, 21 May 2007, M9. wrote:

...

Well, since i have noticed the enormous difference in performance and speed, i will allways use them, if possible. I realy can not understand that this huge difference, between 1 large partition and several smaller ones, is not noticed among you people..

If one would read the manual, that comes along with SuSE, it is

Uhh, there you got me. :-)

...

recommended to use partitions... It is obvious, that those who write the manual, are not the same as those who use the system...

Maybe the absence of a good partitioner, is the reason, no one uses them;-)

Clear to me is that the problems that arise now, are caused by the absence of a good partitioner, and the knowledge, that a good partitioner is a must, for those who take their OS serious, because even M$ knows that it needs room to install, and offers all you need in a simplyfied version of fdisk, to delete, make and format partition(s), as many as you like. But afterwards, you are allways able to change the size, delete, move or create new partitions, if there is the need for it.

To partition, is the basis for a useable OS. To be able to change the available room, is a must to keep the system tuned.

I can not understand that this is not understood;-)

All I need is a system partition for the os and a large data partition for me to create a mess.

...

Just imagine what happens: all files get all over the disk, which makes a mess, and makes time to find the file you want longer. Cann't you see this?

Isn't that what's beagle for? No? :-) Steffen --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

M9.

17:47

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Steffen Winterfeldt schreef:

...

On Mon, 21 May 2007, M9. wrote:

...

...
I can not understand that this is not understood;-)

All I need is a system partition for the os and a large data partition for me to create a mess.

...
Just imagine what happens: all files get all over the disk, which makes a mess, and makes time to find the file you want longer. Cann't you see this?

Isn't that what's beagle for?

No? :-)

Beagle is a disaster, which keeps creating unreadable files, that no one will ever use again. Beagle is the example of the 'cluttermachine'.. in my vieuw.. To keep track of what is happening, one must keep ones system clean. (my /home is a 6,3 GB mess, but i would not want to imagine that my OS was like that..errr...?!) :-)

...

Steffen --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

- -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.8-03-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 "release 45.4" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGUds0X5/X5X6LpDgRAnvQAKCrksrQCQei+R3GDilv0MaoPjEoRACeIMTu uqPkAGqtDgbiML0n5N52Rs4= =d1Gc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

18:37

* M9. [05-21-07 14:07]:

...

Beagle is a disaster, which keeps creating unreadable files, that no one will ever use again. Beagle is the example of the 'cluttermachine'.. in my vieuw..

No, it *is* handy, even if you have order. You must have an older version which had problems or you have mis-configured somehow. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 OpenSUSE Linux http://en.opensuse.org/ Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

M9.

18:40

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Patrick Shanahan schreef:

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* M9. [05-21-07 14:07]:

...
Beagle is a disaster, which keeps creating unreadable files, that no one will ever use again. Beagle is the example of the 'cluttermachine'.. in my vieuw..

No, it *is* handy, even if you have order. You must have an older version which had problems or you have mis-configured somehow.

I will look at it again in the 10.3 editions ;-)

...

- -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.8-03-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 "release 45.4" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGUeeqX5/X5X6LpDgRAnzQAKCuPONa7+HUDkBJWZ6YpkIU+RE/hQCeK6vP 235KnuKM1b70z3xcouKhcw4= =Tw7u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hans Witvliet

20:15

On Mon, 2007-05-21 at 17:25 +0200, M9. wrote:

...

We see that the suggestion to create a serious partitioner, like PQ Partition Magic was not so bad at all. I constantly run into problems, because it is much too difficult too change the sizes of existing partitions.

I would suggest using LVM!

...

Now, one has too back-up his/her home, throw away all partitions, and start all over again.

What's wrong with that?

...

More logic would be: Load the files nessesary to create what is needed first, (the room for the system, and i am still convinced, that there are seperate partitions needed, for: /boot,/,/opt,/usr,/var, (and evt /tmp), swap, and /home.) and then, one should be able to change sizes, without having to delete /home.

The systems i have to manage, have seperate /boot (normally not mounted) /usr and /opt (both mounted RO), seperate /tmp, /var, /var/log, /srv, /tmp and /home.

...

It must be possible to reduce the size of /home, if more room for fi: /boot, /usr, and/or /var is needed. Create them at minimum, and resize them when needed

I realy mean that it is totaly anoying, not being able to change your available room, without spending hours to back-up the data you want to save..

As said, use LVM with lvm+reiser you can enlarge them on-the-fly, but have to unmount them for shrinking

...

I simply can not understand that nobody else finds this nessesary. (Some people only create root-partition and root-user ;-()

Have a nice day,

Same to you, Final remark, for small partitions (<100MB) use ext3, not reiserfs And for those that never change (usr, opt) journaling is not needed. -- pgp-id: 926EBB12 pgp-fingerprint: BE97 1CBF FAC4 236C 4A73 F76E EDFC D032 926E BB12 Registered linux user: 75761 (http://counter.li.org) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

richard (MQ)

22 May 22 May

06:32

Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

As said, use LVM

with lvm+reiser you can enlarge them on-the-fly, but have to unmount them for shrinking

Seconded, though my preference is for ext3 - downside is the annoying tendency to do a full check just when you least want it, but on the plus side it seems more tolerant of dirty umounts

...

...
Have a nice day,

Same to you, Final remark, for small partitions (<100MB) use ext3, not reiserfs

Surely you mean ext2?

...

And for those that never change (usr, opt) journaling is not needed.

A good point, though presumably journalling has little effect on read performance so the main effect is a small loss of capacity. I thought ext3 was the default now on OSL? FWIW, I'd like to see LVM by default too. Final comment - if changes are made to the YaST partitioner, could I propose a 'newbie' (simple) mode button: defaults when set: swap plus single / ext3 partition; defaults when unset: LVM, separate /boot (ext2), /home (ext3), swap, ... -- Cheers Richard (MQ) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

M9.

09:16

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 richard (MQ) schreef:

...

Hans Witvliet wrote:

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As said, use LVM

Used it fist time last week on a 32bits machine, not much experience with it, but some people advise me to use it, just like now.

...

...
with lvm+reiser you can enlarge them on-the-fly, but have to unmount them for shrinking

How do you move apartition that is large enough? You shrink the one that is behind it, and then? Can you perform these tasks while the data is on it?

...

Seconded, though my preference is for ext3 - downside is the annoying tendency to do a full check just when you least want it, but on the plus side it seems more tolerant of dirty umounts

ext checks every 2 month's...reiser checks everything very thouroughly after hang or crash..

...

...
...
Have a nice day,

Same to you, Final remark, for small partitions (<100MB) use ext3, not reiserfs

Surely you mean ext2?

for /boot ext 2 is allright..;-)

...

...
And for those that never change (usr, opt) journaling is not needed.

maybe they did not change in the past, but since 10.2, /usr is growing...(where does it stop? How big should it be made to have room enough, and not to much.., same for /var, changed the size since 10.0 3 times: too big, made smaller, now in 10.2 it is allready too small, To make seperate /var/log is a very good idea ;-)

...

A good point, though presumably journalling has little effect on read performance so the main effect is a small loss of capacity.

I thought ext3 was the default now on OSL? FWIW, I'd like to see LVM by default too.

Since reiser is accused of murdering his wife, nobody maintains the fs.. :-(

...

Final comment - if changes are made to the YaST partitioner, could I propose a 'newbie' (simple) mode button:

defaults when set: swap plus single / ext3 partition; defaults when unset: LVM, separate /boot (ext2), /home (ext3), swap, ...

It could as well suggest all needed partitions, in the proper size :-) - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.8-03-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 "release 45.4" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGUrTfX5/X5X6LpDgRAqgJAJ9/LvKhmoiUYaT9bNs5nM7qonXIowCghxXD QdTcQqyenrFLR+MMVb8a/VE= =h38q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

richard (MQ)

09:44

M9. wrote:

...

Used it fist time last week on a 32bits machine, not much experience with it, but some people advise me to use it, just like now.

...
...
with lvm+reiser you can enlarge them on-the-fly, but have to unmount them for shrinking

How do you move a partition that is large enough? You shrink the one that is behind it, and then? Can you perform these tasks while the data is on it?

man lvm I *strongly* advise booting to 'rescue' mode (i.e. running from RAM, without *any* disc partitions mounted) before making any changes. I'd also suggest that doing it without backing up important data first is really not a very sensible practice, but you will probably get away with it.

...

...
Seconded, though my preference is for ext3 - downside is the annoying tendency to do a full check just when you least want it, but on the plus side it seems more tolerant of dirty umounts

ext checks every 2 month's...reiser checks everything very thouroughly after hang or crash..

Indeed so, but in my experience reiserfs is less capable of dealing with problems (e.g. caused by dirty umounts) when they do occur. This seems particularly pertinent to USB storage in my experience. I'd quite agree that the regular checking is a pain, more so because of teh tendency to do it without warning or a chance to postpone it.

...

...
...
And for those that never change (usr, opt) journaling is not needed.

maybe they did not change in the past, but since 10.2, /usr is growing...(where does it stop? How big should it be made to have room enough, and not to much.., same for /var, changed the size since 10.0 3 times: too big, made smaller, now in 10.2 it is allready too small, To make seperate /var/log is a very good idea ;-)

I think the previous poster meant that they don't get written to much once installation is complete (only when installing / upgrading). I'd agree that they change significantly between OSL versions.

...

Since reiser is accused of murdering his wife, nobody maintains the fs.. :-(

:-(

...

...
Final comment - if changes are made to the YaST partitioner, could I propose a 'newbie' (simple) mode button:

...
defaults when set: swap plus single / ext3 partition; defaults when unset: LVM, separate /boot (ext2), /home (ext3), swap, ...

It could as well suggest all needed partitions, in the proper size :-)

A good suggestion, I hope it is seen by the YaST programmers...? PS - No need to cc me, I'm on the list. -- Cheers Richard (MQ) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

M9.

10:05

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 richard (MQ) schreef:

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PS - No need to cc me, I'm on the list.

Just pressed reply and cc'd mailinglist ;-) - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.8-03-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 "release 45.4" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGUsBiX5/X5X6LpDgRAm4SAKDYvW+XnpbRGAizLiAPce4gFqTYxgCg4JD1 ONXXyqj8xSxVMiFnT/+zxGw= =FJaw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Sid Boyce

12:22

M9. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

richard (MQ) schreef:

...
Hans Witvliet wrote:

...
As said, use LVM

Used it fist time last week on a 32bits machine, not much experience with it, but some people advise me to use it, just like now.

...
...
with lvm+reiser you can enlarge them on-the-fly, but have to unmount them for shrinking

How do you move apartition that is large enough? You shrink the one that is behind it, and then? Can you perform these tasks while the data is on it?

...
Seconded, though my preference is for ext3 - downside is the annoying tendency to do a full check just when you least want it, but on the plus side it seems more tolerant of dirty umounts

ext checks every 2 month's...reiser checks everything very thouroughly after hang or crash.. You can use e.g "tune2fs -c 0 /dev/sda1" to stop ext3 doing that.

...

...
...
...
Have a nice day,

Same to you, Final remark, for small partitions (<100MB) use ext3, not reiserfs Surely you mean ext2?

for /boot ext 2 is allright..;-)

...
...
And for those that never change (usr, opt) journaling is not needed.

maybe they did not change in the past, but since 10.2, /usr is growing...(where does it stop? How big should it be made to have room enough, and not to much.., same for /var, changed the size since 10.0 3 times: too big, made smaller, now in 10.2 it is allready too small, To make seperate /var/log is a very good idea ;-)

...
A good point, though presumably journalling has little effect on read performance so the main effect is a small loss of capacity.

I thought ext3 was the default now on OSL? FWIW, I'd like to see LVM by default too.

Since reiser is accused of murdering his wife, nobody maintains the fs.. :-(

...
Totally untrue. Many good reads on the subject out there. reiser2 is not being further developed, but the reiser4 team is very hard at work and they have many customers using reiser4. http://kerneltrap.org/node/8102

...

...
Final comment - if changes are made to the YaST partitioner, could I propose a 'newbie' (simple) mode button:

defaults when set: swap plus single / ext3 partition; defaults when unset: LVM, separate /boot (ext2), /home (ext3), swap, ...

It could as well suggest all needed partitions, in the proper size :-)

Even Sun has gone away from slicing and dicing large disks into smaller ones. I've heard the arguments about accidentally erasing a partition, but they are all under / and if you rm -rf /, checkmate! I always have / and swap only, even on the largest Sun/Fujitsu SPARC Enterprise systems when I used to do Solaris installs for customers. What has bitten me a number of times is a faulty IDE port on a number of motherboards when all disks get clobbered, only once did I hit the enter key with, "rm -rf / <directory>" instead of "rm -rf /<directory>", CTRL-C, but lots bullets had gone before I could take my finger off the trigger and data was lost. LVM sidelines the arguments, but backups are the only insurance whatever path you choose. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

M9.

13:11

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Sid Boyce schreef:

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...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Since reiser is accused of murdering his wife, nobody maintains the fs.. :-(

...
Totally untrue. Many good reads on the subject out there. reiser2 is not being further developed, but the reiser4 team is very hard at work and

M9. wrote: they have many customers using reiser4. http://kerneltrap.org/node/8102

Not totaly, the article (nice to tell me about it ;-) shows the fear was there... This pleases me, never had any problems with reiserfs, i mostly am not realy in a hurry when booting up, so if some checking has to be done is ok with me.

...

Even Sun has gone away from slicing and dicing large disks into smaller ones. I've heard the arguments about accidentally erasing a partition, but they are all under / and if you rm -rf /, checkmate! I always have / and swap only, even on the largest Sun/Fujitsu SPARC Enterprise systems when I used to do Solaris installs for customers.

I myself accidentally errased a few, not nice, i agree. Not having a back-up, is lots of extra work, not to speak of unreplaceble things like family digipics...(reason to burn them from then..) But for me totaly no reason not to use them. Since there are these large disks, the reason to partition them is even more nessesary, one can now install various OS on one disk, without any problem. Cutting these OS partitions apart would seem not wanted, but i do still believe in doing exactly that ;-) I am from the time, a 500MB HDD was all I had, and the trouble i have had every day to get about 20% free space, you do not want to know... The idea of: Room enough, just throw all on it!, does not fit me. But as many men, as many opinions.. And as long as 'i' do not have to do it the way 'you' want me to, we all are happy ;-) Long live the freedom of choice!!!

...

What has bitten me a number of times is a faulty IDE port on a number of motherboards when all disks get clobbered, only once did I hit the enter key with, "rm -rf / <directory>" instead of "rm -rf /<directory>", CTRL-C, but lots bullets had gone before I could take my finger off the trigger and data was lost. LVM sidelines the arguments, but backups are the only insurance whatever path you choose.

Agreed...

...

Regards Sid.

- -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.8-03-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 "release 45.4" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGUuwDX5/X5X6LpDgRAl8NAJ4k2A2AHWnoZZZ74ccJ0wg1+vSirwCfW29/ ehcaON84CQDyeNQ71Y9mGBs= =8fCR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Sid Boyce

23 May 23 May

02:22

M9. wrote:

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Sid Boyce schreef:

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M9. wrote:

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

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Since reiser is accused of murdering his wife, nobody maintains the fs.. :-( Totally untrue. Many good reads on the subject out there. reiser2 is not being further developed, but the reiser4 team is very hard at work and they have many customers using reiser4. http://kerneltrap.org/node/8102

Not totaly, the article (nice to tell me about it ;-) shows the fear was there... This pleases me, never had any problems with reiserfs, i mostly am not realy in a hurry when booting up, so if some checking has to be done is ok with me.

I've been using reiserfs since about SuSE 6.2, that was back when 20 Gig was the big har drive. I had a power cut and fsck.ext2 took ages while the SuSE 6.2 box was up with no delay. Likewise, I've had no problems with reiserfs. When many guys were rubbishing reiserfs, saying it was causing corruptions and I was also having corruptions, I was advised to go to ext3, but I got corruptions with ext3 also. The problem turned out to be a bad IDE controller.

...

...
Even Sun has gone away from slicing and dicing large disks into smaller ones. I've heard the arguments about accidentally erasing a partition, but they are all under / and if you rm -rf /, checkmate! I always have / and swap only, even on the largest Sun/Fujitsu SPARC Enterprise systems when I used to do Solaris installs for customers.

I myself accidentally errased a few, not nice, i agree. Not having a back-up, is lots of extra work, not to speak of unreplaceble things like family digipics...(reason to burn them from then..) But for me totaly no reason not to use them.

Since there are these large disks, the reason to partition them is even more nessesary, one can now install various OS on one disk, without any problem. Cutting these OS partitions apart would seem not wanted, but i do still believe in doing exactly that ;-) I am from the time, a 500MB HDD was all I had, and the trouble i have had every day to get about 20% free space, you do not want to know...

The idea of: Room enough, just throw all on it!, does not fit me.

I prefer to use virtual machines. I started using VMware back in the early days to run WFW 3.11 under Linux, I used their 6.0 betas which have run out of licence and I'm not prepared to buy 6.0. Virtualbox is OK for the x86 box and I'm about to test KVM any day now, everything is in place, just need to try one of their built images. Rebooting a Linux box is something I rarely do other than to bring up a new kernel. I may look again at kexec as it has been out a long time, partially worked when it first came out.

...

But as many men, as many opinions.. And as long as 'i' do not have to do it the way 'you' want me to, we all are happy ;-) Long live the freedom of choice!!!

Hear, hear!, but about 13 years ago I asked some guys why they chopped their disks up and then were forced to have symlinks going every which way when space ran out, answer was they didn't know, that was what they were told and that's what they did. Likewise I asked colleagues why at every command prompt on Solaris they hit the enter key about 10 times before typing in a command - they saw the "experts" doing it. In 1993 we got a new Sun workstation in the office and it ran out of space with the way the disk was sliced as then recommended by Sun, so in order to build software, they had to NFS mount the Linux PC I had set up and build it on the Linux hard drive. Whatever keeps the people warm and happy, but if you ever saw time wasting practices like guys under Solaris not using bash, preferring to use "ksh -o vi" and using vi commands with the dexterity of a concert pianist to recall and modify the command line, you would think it's more like fat, dumb and happy. Fallacies can and often do become "Best Practice". Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vahis

22 May 22 May

15:36

M9. wrote:

...

<snip>

...

...
Final comment - if changes are made to the YaST partitioner, could I propose a 'newbie' (simple) mode button:

...
defaults when set: swap plus single / ext3 partition;

A separate /home is important IMHO. A suggestion to keep old home if there is one already when installing might be good, too.

...

...
defaults when unset: LVM, separate /boot (ext2), /home (ext3), swap, ...

It could as well suggest all needed partitions, in the proper size :-)

No opinion here because the ones not wanting the default should know what they want. -- Vahis --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

M9.

17:31

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Vahis schreef:

...

M9. wrote:

...
<snip>

...
...
Final comment - if changes are made to the YaST partitioner, could I propose a 'newbie' (simple) mode button: defaults when set: swap plus single / ext3 partition;

A separate /home is important IMHO.

Out of the question, most important, keeps all settings..

...

A suggestion to keep old home if there is one already when installing might be good, too.

Allways the best, because all settings are allready there ;-)

...

...
...
defaults when unset: LVM, separate /boot (ext2), /home (ext3), swap, ... It could as well suggest all needed partitions, in the proper size :-)

No opinion here because the ones not wanting the default should know what they want.

Well, since some dirs, like /usr and /var vary from edition to edition, it is never clear what the size most optimal should be.. That is the point... If it was easy to rearrange the sizes, like with PQ PM, you could easily adapt the size to the needed size... That is why should be clear where the growth should be, so the size could be adapted in front..(because of the lack of a good partitioner..;-)

...

- -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.8-03-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 "release 45.4" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGUykEX5/X5X6LpDgRAj/8AKDTN1s1rkVaXvn//TInoLeRXH0wQQCgsW0S jYywusxv65RNhbEpBoCrWfo= =i58e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hans Witvliet

23:48

On Tue, 2007-05-22 at 19:31 +0200, M9. wrote:

...

Well, since some dirs, like /usr and /var vary from edition to edition, it is never clear what the size most optimal should be.. That is the point... If it was easy to rearrange the sizes, like with PQ PM, you could easily adapt the size to the needed size... That is why should be clear where the growth should be, so the size could be adapted in front..(because of the lack of a good partitioner..;-)

Well, /opt and /usr can be calculated (yast does it) Or if you want it Q&D, install the whole bunch as you think you might need it, with just a root partition, have a look what you need, and re-install it properly (opt & usr at 75%) /srv you can also plan ahead (mysql, apache, ldap, tftp, ...) /home is always a surprise /tmp auto-purge weekly /var/log is your own admin responsibility to keep tidy btw, i did mean ext3 for small partitions that varies, not ext2 or reiser: journaling is nice for systems that change. But a 100MB reiser-FS is filled for 30% with internal datastructures. For large partitions (>250GB) ext is a pita), it takes ages to make. HW -- pgp-id: 926EBB12 pgp-fingerprint: BE97 1CBF FAC4 236C 4A73 F76E EDFC D032 926E BB12 Registered linux user: 75761 (http://counter.li.org) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

M9.

23 May 23 May

00:32

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hans Witvliet schreef:

...

On Tue, 2007-05-22 at 19:31 +0200, M9. wrote:

...
Well, since some dirs, like /usr and /var vary from edition to edition, it is never clear what the size most optimal should be.. That is the point... If it was easy to rearrange the sizes, like with PQ PM, you could easily adapt the size to the needed size... That is why should be clear where the growth should be, so the size could be adapted in front..(because of the lack of a good partitioner..;-)

Well, /opt and /usr can be calculated (yast does it) Or if you want it Q&D, install the whole bunch as you think you might need it, with just a root partition, have a look what you need, and re-install it properly (opt & usr at 75%)

/srv you can also plan ahead (mysql, apache, ldap, tftp, ...) /home is always a surprise /tmp auto-purge weekly /var/log is your own admin responsibility to keep tidy btw, i did mean ext3 for small partitions that varies, not ext2 or reiser: journaling is nice for systems that change. But a 100MB reiser-FS is filled for 30% with internal datastructures. For large partitions (>250GB) ext is a pita), it takes ages to make.

HW

I am just ready with the install of Alpha4... I changed everything i needed to: /boot from 30MB > 100MB / , 1GB, same /usr, from 3.5 > 4GB /var ,1GB, same, but added: /var/lib, 1GB,(lib was the cause:400MB) /opt, 2.5GB same, /tmp, 2GB, was 3GB. swap, something like rest: about approx.374MB. /home, 20GB, /shared, 42GB. But LVM did not work for me, i added everything manualy with the other partitioner, simpeler for me... Now we'll see how long it lasts ;-) - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.21-8-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.3 (X86-64) Alpha4 KDE: 3.5.6 "release 42" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGU4uAX5/X5X6LpDgRAtgzAKCoXbBDpsLFbgMAHNru7Xvt/lSVCQCdHXCo BKhbBlC5BrYoGBks6tJJiz8= =eZlc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

peter nikolic

07:52

On Wednesday 23 May 2007, M9. wrote:

...

I am just ready with the install of Alpha4... I changed everything i needed to:

/boot from 30MB > 100MB / , 1GB, same /usr, from 3.5 > 4GB /var ,1GB, same, but added: /var/lib, 1GB,(lib was the cause:400MB) /opt, 2.5GB same, /tmp, 2GB, was 3GB. swap, something like rest: about approx.374MB. /home, 20GB, /shared, 42GB.

But LVM did not work for me, i added everything manualy with the other partitioner, simpeler for me...

Now we'll see how long it lasts ;-)

Do i see a hangover from Slowaris there so many un-needed partitions just clutzing the system up and to what gain a nano second or so somewhere is it really worth all the hassle of setting up i dont think so . What form of real time super computing are you doing that makes you think a nano second here and ther are that important ? .. Most Reiserfs problems that i have had have been down to faulty hardware cheap hard disk construction not meant to run 24/7 as these boxes here do hardware manafacturers have got the windBloZe state of mind these days boot the system type a letter shut the system down need to do another letter reboot the system . Pete . -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

M9.

10:27

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 peter nikolic schreef:

...

On Wednesday 23 May 2007, M9. wrote:

...

...
[snip] Now we'll see how long it lasts ;-)

Do i see a hangover from Slowaris there so many un-needed partitions just clutzing the system up and to what gain a nano second or so somewhere is it really worth all the hassle of setting up i dont think so .

You are free to think whatever you want ;-) At this moment, I am setting up a one partition os 10.2 now, on the same machine, exept /swap, and /home, because Alpha4 is not ready to use as a normal OS yet, and to see what is exactly the difference. I've put 1GB of extra ram to the existing 512MB, a week or so ago, which made a big difference. When using 512, it made a lot more difference than just a nano sec here and there, disk is much slower than eeprom. swap usage was mostly (install and update) 450-650 MB at that time, and now none.

...

What form of real time super computing are you doing that makes you think a nano second here and ther are that important ? ..

I do not like to wait too long, like not able to use the mouse, or performing few tasks at once.. With the right amount of ram, the performance is very much better...

...

Most Reiserfs problems that i have had have been down to faulty hardware cheap hard disk construction not meant to run 24/7 as these boxes here do hardware manafacturers have got the windBloZe state of mind these days boot the system type a letter shut the system down need to do another letter reboot the system .

Never had problems with reiser... System is up mostly 18 hours a day, now i use a networkdrive that is on 24/7.

...

Pete .

- -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.21-8-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.3 (X86-64) Alpha4 KDE: 3.5.6 "release 42" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGVBcgX5/X5X6LpDgRAtCXAJoDct1njSTsSYfEADCkMXphEMOoPwCgi/Xl iWglMu0Ro4ZqnlrZwGF88g8= =St0K -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Sid Boyce

11:27

peter nikolic wrote:

...

On Wednesday 23 May 2007, M9. wrote:

...
I am just ready with the install of Alpha4... I changed everything i needed to:

/boot from 30MB > 100MB / , 1GB, same /usr, from 3.5 > 4GB /var ,1GB, same, but added: /var/lib, 1GB,(lib was the cause:400MB) /opt, 2.5GB same, /tmp, 2GB, was 3GB. swap, something like rest: about approx.374MB. /home, 20GB, /shared, 42GB.

But LVM did not work for me, i added everything manualy with the other partitioner, simpeler for me...

Now we'll see how long it lasts ;-)

Do i see a hangover from Slowaris there so many un-needed partitions just clutzing the system up and to what gain a nano second or so somewhere is it really worth all the hassle of setting up i dont think so .

What form of real time super computing are you doing that makes you think a nano second here and ther are that important ? ..

Most Reiserfs problems that i have had have been down to faulty hardware cheap hard disk construction not meant to run 24/7 as these boxes here do hardware manafacturers have got the windBloZe state of mind these days boot the system type a letter shut the system down need to do another letter reboot the system .

Pete .

There are periods of historical note, see my post mentioning "Fallacies becoming Best Practice", burning of witches and the time when no good doctor was without an ample supply of leeches. The practice of slicing and dicing came into being when hard drives were so small that it was necessary to have a number of small drives, each mimicing a curent day partition, in order to get work done, unfortunately it set a mentality to forever needed small disks. I came into the industry when huge drive sizes were 1 Meg, that was 37 years ago this month, so I must be like the first doctors that "wrongly" thought leeches didn't do anything cure patients' illnesses. No one has ever given me a reasoned argument to demonstrate why the arrangement below is an exposure in Linux or Solaris (a conclusion Sun eventually came to some years ago), though I'm not saying other over convoluted models don't work, except I don't have to care about small partitions running out of space unless I fire up kcalc on another box and do the sums specific to my local needs with 4 Linux boxes with openSUSE, 1 with Kubuntu and 1 Solaris 10 SPARC box up 24/7, 2 other Linux boxes waiting to be redeployed (perhaps as a baby cluster) after redecoration is done. # fdisk -l /dev/sda Disk /dev/sda: 250.0 GB, 250059350016 bytes 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 30401 cylinders Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sda1 * 1 29300 235352218+ 83 Linux /dev/sda2 29301 30401 8843782+ 82 Linux swap / Solaris Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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Hans Witvliet
M9.
Patrick Shanahan
peter nikolic
richard (MQ)
Sid Boyce
Steffen Winterfeldt
Vahis