Cristian Rodriguez escribió:

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IMHO, using the 'smart' approach would be better.

No, you end having almost the same problem.. We have explained this many times, smart is **no** model to follow for a package manager, it is inconsistent and it does **not work** properly in 64 bit.

I'm not telling doing as smart. What the download model has to do with 64 bit???

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First download all packages (keeping them on a special location), and after finishing the download, install them.

that is called "transaction", I suspect that there is a good reason why it is not implemented the way you suggest.

If there is a good reason, I would like to know which is it.

If a problem occur during the download phase,

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just retry from the last successful downloaded package.

and it should "resume" a download as well ;)

Sure.

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Having the choice to keep the downloaded files would be useful too if someone want to update another system without the need to download all again.

IF you need to update more than one system, then rsync the update tree and pragate updates via NFS or something.

What if you don't want to update all the packages, but just some group of them. It has not sense rsync the entire update tree. Best regards. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Dňa Thursday 04 October 2007 14:27:20 Igor Jagec ste napísal:

On Čet, 2007-10-04 at 07:48 -0300, Gabriel wrote:

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Cristian Rodriguez escribió:

...

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First download all packages (keeping them on a special location), and after finishing the download, install them.

that is called "transaction", I suspect that there is a good reason why it is not implemented the way you suggest.

If there is a good reason, I would like to know which is it.

Me too. I must say I didn't figure what's the purpose of that approach. For instance, Yum also downloads all the packages first, then updates them. Since I'm still officially a Fedora user (I'll switch to openSUSE 10.3 over the weekend), I'm quite familiar with Yum. And the funny thing is that Fedora developers also don't like SmartPM very much.

The most important feature for download and install is that you can operate under very restricted situations, e.g. disk and memory requirements. I agree that on a running system, this is not the most effective approach. What needs to be determined is to figure out how much space you can spare to download the packages and this is not very easy to do. Just imagine a package that will need to create a big new file in its post-install script (think initrd for a new kernel). You can hardly predict, only to use heuristics. Stano --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Dňa Thursday 04 October 2007 15:00:44 Gabriel . ste napísal:

2007/10/4, Stanislav Visnovsky :

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The most important feature for download and install is that you can operate under very restricted situations, e.g. disk and memory requirements.

I agree that on a running system, this is not the most effective approach. What needs to be determined is to figure out how much space you can spare to download the packages and this is not very easy to do. Just imagine a package that will need to create a big new file in its post-install script (think initrd for a new kernel). You can hardly predict, only to use heuristics.

I agree, but it could be an option (where the user configures the repos) to choose what method will be used.

There's no need to remove the actual behavior, but adding a new one an let the user select which want to use.

Yes, I agre with configurability of the behavior and also the default to 'try to install as much as possible together' on the running system. The original question was 'give me a strong argument why it behaves this way' ;-) Stano --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Dňa Thursday 04 October 2007 16:24:43 Carlos E. R. ste napísal:

The Thursday 2007-10-04 at 10:00 -0300, Gabriel . wrote:

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I agree that on a running system, this is not the most effective approach. What needs to be determined is to figure out how much space you can spare to download the packages and this is not very easy to do. Just imagine a package that will need to create a big new file in its post-install script (think initrd for a new kernel). You can hardly predict, only to use heuristics.

I agree, but it could be an option (where the user configures the repos) to choose what method will be used.

Remember that till suse 10.0 that was what was done. Yast first downloaded all, then installed all, then removed or kept (user option) all files.

The point is to reinstate the old behaviour.

Are you sure about this? Stano --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:

Dňa Thursday 04 October 2007 16:24:43 Carlos E. R. ste napísal:

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The Thursday 2007-10-04 at 10:00 -0300, Gabriel . wrote:

...

...

I agree that on a running system, this is not the most effective approach. What needs to be determined is to figure out how much space you can spare to download the packages and this is not very easy to do. Just imagine a package that will need to create a big new file in its post-install script (think initrd for a new kernel). You can hardly predict, only to use heuristics.

I agree, but it could be an option (where the user configures the repos) to choose what method will be used.

Remember that till suse 10.0 that was what was done. Yast first downloaded all, then installed all, then removed or kept (user option) all files.

The point is to reinstate the old behaviour.

Are you sure about this?

He is right, but only in YOU mode. In YOU mode first all packages where downloaded, then all deltas applied, finally all packages got installed. This way you could go offline after download was finished (unless you used the nvidia, fonts etc. pseudo update). Normal installation and distro upgrade always downloaded and installed one package at a time. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Thursday 2007-10-04 at 16:36 +0200, Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:

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Remember that till suse 10.0 that was what was done. Yast first downloaded all, then installed all, then removed or kept (user option) all files.

The point is to reinstate the old behaviour.

Are you sure about this?

In 9.3, absolutely. There was a directory tree we could copy over to another machine or dvd, and the other machine would then skip downloading the files it found in the directory tree, that had the same structure as the ftp tree, if I remember correctly. The method and directory has changed a bit from version to version, but it was similar for suse 7, 8, 9... There was a tick box to keep or remove the downloaded packages. I don't remember if this was only done for deltas or not (I used deltas). With deltas the directory was large: it kept the deltas, patches, and reconstructed rpms. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHBTn2tTMYHG2NR9URAoq8AJ4mR8bWuWx+SXDlgHPOLyCbend79QCfcvLu hZH0897RDTTLdMaU8MutIbM= =7rnu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Čet, 2007-10-04 at 14:40 +0200, Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:

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Me too. I must say I didn't figure what's the purpose of that approach. For instance, Yum also downloads all the packages first, then updates them. Since I'm still officially a Fedora user (I'll switch to openSUSE 10.3 over the weekend), I'm quite familiar with Yum. And the funny thing is that Fedora developers also don't like SmartPM very much. The most important feature for download and install is that you can operate under very restricted situations, e.g. disk and memory requirements. I agree that on a running system, this is not the most effective approach. What needs to be determined is to figure out how much space you can spare to download the packages and this is not very easy to do. Just imagine a package

Dňa Thursday 04 October 2007 14:27:20 Igor Jagec ste napísal: that will need to create a big new file in its post-install script (think initrd for a new kernel). You can hardly predict, only to use heuristics.

Thanks for the answer. I'm surely gonna test it as soon as I totally switch to openSUSE 10.3, most likely over the weekend. Since I've never used unsupported tools for managing packages, I'm definitely gonna use Zypper on openSUSE. BTW what is the difference between 'zypper update' and 'zypper update -t package? Which one of these 2 commands is used by GNOME/KDE update applet? Is it possible for Zypper to remove packages if it doesn't met dependencies? I'm just asking that in case I decide to update my system manually :) Cheers! -- Igor Jagec

On Čet, 2007-10-04 at 19:08 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

On Thursday 04 October 2007 06:35:28 pm Igor Jagec wrote:

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BTW what is the difference between 'zypper update' and 'zypper update -t package? 'zypper update' == 'zypper update -t patch'

Meaning, the patch option pulls delta rpms? I saw some .delta.rpm and .patch.rpm packages in Zypper's output so I'm asking :) If so, that's great because, as I figured, that consumes less bandwidth :)

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Which one of these 2 commands is used by GNOME/KDE update applet? Whatever is for patches :-)

I experienced some package removal while I was playing with that applet on Factory, so I was just asking :)

It will not install packages that doesn't meet dependencies. All checks are done in advance as you will notice.

That's great, thanks! -- Igor Jagec

On Thursday 04 October 2007 08:33:19 pm Igor Jagec wrote:

On Čet, 2007-10-04 at 19:08 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

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On Thursday 04 October 2007 06:35:28 pm Igor Jagec wrote:

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BTW what is the difference between 'zypper update' and 'zypper update -t package?

'zypper update' == 'zypper update -t patch'

Meaning, the patch option pulls delta rpms? I saw some .delta.rpm and .patch.rpm packages in Zypper's output so I'm asking :)

The .delta.rpm is a way to deliver patches. When is used delta vs. rpm that can answer some of YaST/zypper guys. This is from 'man zypper': ------------------------------ Package Management Commands zypper works with several types of resource objects, called resolvables. A resolvable is a package, patch, pattern, language, or a product. package - all RPM packages including patch and delta packages patch - update of the packages, it can include special scripts and messages pattern - group of packages language - group of packages with language support product - group of packages, which are necessary to install a product ------------------------------

If so, that's great because, as I figured, that consumes less bandwidth :)

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Which one of these 2 commands is used by GNOME/KDE update applet?

Whatever is for patches :-)

I experienced some package removal while I was playing with that applet on Factory, so I was just asking :)

Removal will happen if package is listed for removal in rpm, but how it lands in that list can answer some of guys that actually do packaging.

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It will not install packages that doesn't meet dependencies. All checks are done in advance as you will notice.

That's great, thanks!

-- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Dňa Friday 05 October 2007 04:13:09 Rajko M. ste napísal:

On Thursday 04 October 2007 08:33:19 pm Igor Jagec wrote:

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On Čet, 2007-10-04 at 19:08 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Thursday 04 October 2007 06:35:28 pm Igor Jagec wrote:

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BTW what is the difference between 'zypper update' and 'zypper update -t package?

'zypper update' == 'zypper update -t patch'

Meaning, the patch option pulls delta rpms? I saw some .delta.rpm and .patch.rpm packages in Zypper's output so I'm asking :)

The .delta.rpm is a way to deliver patches.

openSUSE use it for patches, correct.

When is used delta vs. rpm that can answer some of YaST/zypper guys.

They are used whenever they are available in the repository (repomd). So, in principle, it would be possible to have also delta RPMs for factory against the last release version (although this does not make sense in a real life due to space constraints etc). Stano --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2007-10-04 14:27:20 +0200, Igor Jagec wrote:

On Čet, 2007-10-04 at 07:48 -0300, Gabriel wrote:

...

Cristian Rodriguez escribió:

...

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First download all packages (keeping them on a special location), and after finishing the download, install them. that is called "transaction", I suspect that there is a good reason why it is not implemented the way you suggest. If there is a good reason, I would like to know which is it.

Me too. I must say I didn't figure what's the purpose of that approach. For instance, Yum also downloads all the packages first, then updates them. Since I'm still officially a Fedora user (I'll switch to openSUSE 10.3 over the weekend), I'm quite familiar with Yum. And the funny thing is that Fedora developers also don't like SmartPM very much.

than i just hope you dont run it on x86_64. if you do... you might want to add alias yum="yum --exclude=\*i586\*" to your shell rc file. otherwise you will get a lot of crap installed on your system. in regards of biarch support zypper/yast still beats smart and yum. darix -- openSUSE - SUSE Linux is my linux openSUSE is good for you www.opensuse.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 04 October 2007 12:01:47 am Cristian Rodriguez wrote:

that is called "transaction", I suspect that there is a good reason why it is not implemented the way you suggest.

Ok, but what is the good reason? I agree that Smart is not a good model to follow due to the weaknesses in package resolution (particularly for multi-arch), but what is wrong with downloading all packages prior to installing? Frankly, in my previous experiences with factory testing over the last few versions, I have had a couple of cases where Yast crapped out during and update-all, being unable to install certain packages, and I wound up with a partially broken system after that required some sleeve-rolling-up to resolve. Nothing I would have opened a ticket for, since mirror synchronicity is sometimes a crapshoot, but frustrating none the less since it could have been avoided. I don't buy the disk space argument, that is easy enough to pre-determine before an upgrade, so I'm not sure why Yast doesn't operate this way. Really, it seems to make sense... Download all the packages into a cache, and then install them. That way if the download is interrupted (or mirrors are out of synch), the download can be resumed after, and the package upgrades won't happen until all of the packages are actually available locally. Just my 2c... Cheers, KV --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Klaus Kaempf escribió:

Whats the exit strategy if the disk space is not sufficient ?

smart (or rather Python last time I checked) was to SIGSEGV :P

We probably do not want to code, debug, test and maintain two different strategies.

indeed . mantaining two strategies does not make much sense, it is better to have only one, working way. ;) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Igor Jagec [Oct 08. 2007 11:56]:

Do you evaluate extensions for repo priorities?

Yes. We will certainly have the ability to prioritize repositories in the future. Klaus --- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Volker Kuhlmann [Oct 08. 2007 12:37]:

On Mon 08 Oct 2007 22:11:52 NZDT +1300, Klaus Kaempf wrote:

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It depends on the number of packages. For a normal maintenance update with only a handful of packages, download all is probably a good strategy.

With distribution upgrade (i.e. 10.2->10.3) or factory update with hundreds of packages, you'll need quite some disk space ;-)

Uhhmm, like, 4.2GB tops, that being the size of the DVD which is a fits-all? What's the smallest disk you can buy these days, 80GB? 120GB?

Hehe. Disks are always 99% full, no matter the size ;-) Actually, my Laptop (with 60GB disk) runs with Xen and a couple of LVM partitions each approx. 80% used. The maximum space left is less than a gig. Bottom line: There are pros and cons for both approaches.

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Whats the exit strategy if the disk space is not sufficient ?

Display a warning before starting. Size of all packages/files to download is known before download begins. There is df.

Sure. But what to do if the size is not sufficient ?

What I would like to see is the creation of a download cache which can be copied/shared with other hosts (which would imply it's not created at /var/lib/random/phaseofmoon/day-of-week/yast/). The cache only contains what's needed at least once, not the whole shebang. Debian (so I believe) hits the nail square on the head there.

And we're determined to implement such a cache in the next version of OpenSUSE. Klaus --- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org