On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Guido Berhoerster wrote:

* Greg Freemyer [2010-08-06 17:37]:

...

I'm not clear what exactly is being proposed, but any significant shuffling of /usr/bin, /usr/sbin, /usr/lib will potentially impact a lot of existing installs.

Please read the last email and don't start yet another thread. We were discussing about not installing any binaries and libraries into /bin, /sbin, and /lib but rather into /usr/bin, /usr/sbin, and /usr/lib. /bin and /sbin could then be symlinked to /usr/bin and /usr/sbin for compatibility reasons, /lib needs to remain as it contains other things. Upgrading from one release to another, i.e. creating symlinks would need to be handled by a scriptlet.

-- Guido Berhoerster

But that would break every existing install with /usr as a separate partition since booting requires many of the /bin,. /sbin, /lib utilities prior to /usr being mounted. Think about the kernel modules in /lib. Also, you'd totally break grub I assume if /lib became a symlink to a directory on a different partition. Far more logical to turn /usr/bin, /usr/sbin, /usr/lib into symlinks back to /bin, /sbin, /lib. It would add 2 or 3 GB of diskspace requirements to /, but that at least seems doable. RE: changing subject - my belief is that when the subject of a thread totally changes drastically, the subject should be updated. I did not start a new thread just changed the subject. Thus threaded email clients and the archives should keep all this together. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Guido Berhoerster wrote:

Please read the last email and don't start yet another thread. We were discussing about not installing any binaries and libraries into /bin, /sbin, and /lib but rather into /usr/bin, /usr/sbin, and /usr/lib. /bin and /sbin could then be symlinked to /usr/bin and /usr/sbin for compatibility reasons, /lib needs to remain as it contains other things.

If you ever like to create a minimal diskless boot, you know why /sbin needs to remain separately. /sbin contains all those system binaries that are needed in order to mount /usr. And btw: for people who don't know.... /usr was of course the filesystem for users. /usr/dmr was the home directory from Dennis Rithie (this is where the kernel sources have been) and /usr/ken was the home directory from Ken Thompson (this is where the sources for the utilities have been). /usr/bin was created for the same reason other people later created /usr/local..... All programs in /usr/bin are not part of UNIX but are private local hacking results. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Philipp Thomas wrote:

On Mon, 09 Aug 2010 14:24:56 +0200, Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) wrote:

...

All programs in /usr/bin are not part of UNIX but are private local hacking results.

But that is historic use. Nowadays /usr/local/bin is the canonical place for local hacks and tha's also the reason why a distribution will never install anything there.

This is historical use.... /usr/local/bin was abandoned in 1989 in favor of the /opt/<vendor>/bin/* hierarchy. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Philipp Thomas wrote:

On Mon, 09 Aug 2010 23:35:31 +0200, Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) wrote:

...

This is historical use.... /usr/local/bin was abandoned in 1989 in favor of the /opt/<vendor>/bin/* hierarchy.

Definitely no! Citing from FHS 2.3 which is mandatory for LSB

Then it may be that Linux ignores the filesysem hierarchy standards that have been agreed on with _all_ UNIX vendors in the late 1980s. Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 08/10/2010 04:16 AM, Joerg Schilling wrote:

Philipp Thomas wrote:

...

On Mon, 09 Aug 2010 23:35:31 +0200, Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) wrote:

...

This is historical use.... /usr/local/bin was abandoned in 1989 in favor of the /opt/<vendor>/bin/* hierarchy.

Definitely no! Citing from FHS 2.3 which is mandatory for LSB

Then it may be that Linux ignores the filesysem hierarchy standards that have been agreed on with _all_ UNIX vendors in the late 1980s.

That may be. Linux is a UNIX-like system, not a UNIX system. Linux has the FHS and LSB and while they mostly agree with legacy UNIX specs, they are absolutely free not to. I agree with Steffen. Quoting UNIX specs for FHS is a good historical story, but that's about it. Quoting the *reasons* why certain decisions were made would be constructive. - -Jeff - -- Jeff Mahoney SUSE Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxhZPgACgkQLPWxlyuTD7JUlACdF5LyDLWh01026P2s8WttNCkS MGcAniJZMXbgzS+uUNCDsnCa7rMbn7zQ =4QIh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

On 2010/08/09 16:56 (GMT-0400) Philipp Thomas composed:

...

Joerg Schilling wrote:

...

...

All programs in /usr/bin are not part of UNIX but are private local hacking results.

...

But that is historic use.

Speaking of historic use, how did /etc* stop being THE place for global config files? It's really irritating to have to try to find/remember these things buried in the monstrous /usr (or /var) tree instead of in /etc where they belong. e.g. /usr/share/kde4/config/kdm/kdmrc instead of /etc/kde/config/kdm/kdmrc

This seems to be a bug. /var was originally designed for temporary data when it was introduced in 1987 with SunOS-4.0. SVr4 holds the package database in /var/pkg and this may have been the beginning of putting config files to /var The original design was: drwxr-sr-x 4 bin 1536 Aug 7 04:05 adm log files drwxr-sr-x 2 bin 512 Oct 14 1990 crash Kernel core files drwxr-sr-x 2 bin 512 Nov 20 1999 log log files lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 10 Mar 29 1997 mail -> spool/mail mail spool drwxr-sr-x 3 root 1536 Oct 5 1996 named named cache drwxr-sr-x 4 root 512 Oct 14 1990 net rsh aliases and rwho cache drwxr-sr-x 2 bin 512 Oct 19 2001 preserve vi crash logs lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 10 Nov 4 1996 spool -> ../u/spool Spool files (can be mounted) drwxrwxrwt 1 root 8 Nov 4 1996 tmp non tmpfs drwxr-sr-x 4 bin 512 Aug 31 2008 yp yp cache /usr is complete nonsense as everybody knows that /usr is a read-only file system on many platforms. Making /usr read only happened in the beginning of the 1980s when net boot with shared resources was introuced (e.g. via the BSD ND protocol that implements remote block devices). Jörg -- EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2010/08/10 09:37 (GMT-0400) Cristian Rodríguez composed:

Felix Miata wrote:

...

Speaking of historic use, how did /etc* stop being THE place for global config files? It's really irritating to have to try to find/remember these things buried in the monstrous /usr (or /var) tree instead of in /etc where they belong. e.g. /usr/share/kde4/config/kdm/kdmrc instead of /etc/kde/config/kdm/kdmrc

Those are default configuration, not supposed to be modified by the user aka. "templates"

And? Last I checked, the result of using systemsettings put the replacement in the same location as the supposed template (not just in openSUSE). Yup, Factory still does in KDM 4.4.9whatever (leaving no kdmrc.bak). 'rpm -qa | grep kdm' produces only "[6]+ Stopped grep kdm" instead of giving expected grep output. :-p -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org