On Monday 19 November 2012, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 19/11/12 12:11, Ruediger Meier escribió:

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Hi,

the timezone package (/usr/share/zoneinfo) is not installed anymore per default when build against Factory. Is this really wanted?

You dont need the timezone database when building packages ..or what I am missing here ?

Yes, you missed my question. BTW how you know that I don't need timezones or how could you know that any other package does not need timezones without reviewing the sources? cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, Am Montag, 19. November 2012 schrieb Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar:

Looking at the current package in Factory [0], these package depend on timezone ( in either way):

NetworkManager-gnome gnome-panel libicu49 ntp php5 qemu yast2-country kiwi-desc-0emboot kiwi-desc-vmxboot-requires kiwi-desc-netboot-requires

Now, the fact that yast2-country depends on timesone, I'd guess that about every install (with yast) should get timezone installed... If you don't have yast2-country, I'd be wondering why this was no longer installed.

I'd say it in another way: "yast2-country explains why so few packages depend on timezone" ;-) There are probably some packages that need it, but don't have a dependency on it because it's installed everywhere nevertheless. The most prominent example might be: # strings /lib64/libc.so.6 |grep zoneinfo /usr/share/zoneinfo I'm not a glibc expert, but I'd say the above is a strong indicator that glibc should require zoneinfo... (I temporarily trashed my system yesterday by upgrading to factory- tested (aka milestone 1) [1], so I'm not too keen on testing what happens if I uninstall the timezone package ;-) Regards, Christian Boltz [1] zypper up hung the system[2] somewhere in the middle of the update, and mounting my encrypted home/var partition was impossible after the reboot. I finished the update using a live CD, but cryptsetup was still broken. Fortunately updating to factory instead of factory-tested fixed it - but I'm asking myself why we name the broken thing "-tested" ;-) [2] well, not the whole system, "only" disk writes - which means all processes that wanted to write something to disk hung. This also means the log probably doesn't contain the "guilty" package, so writing a bugreport doesn't make sense :-/ --

[KDE-Update] Also meine Uhr sieht exakt so aus wie vorher (ohne daß ich an den Einstellungen was gemacht hätte) Meine Uhr sieht ständig anders aus. Dauernd andere Zahlen. [> Christoph Maurer und Bernd Brodesser in suse-linux] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/19/2012 09:09 PM, Christian Boltz wrote:

Hello,

Am Montag, 19. November 2012 schrieb Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar:

...

Looking at the current package in Factory [0], these package depend on timezone ( in either way):

NetworkManager-gnome gnome-panel libicu49 ntp php5 qemu yast2-country kiwi-desc-0emboot kiwi-desc-vmxboot-requires kiwi-desc-netboot-requires

Now, the fact that yast2-country depends on timesone, I'd guess that about every install (with yast) should get timezone installed... If you don't have yast2-country, I'd be wondering why this was no longer installed.

I'd say it in another way: "yast2-country explains why so few packages depend on timezone" ;-) There are probably some packages that need it, but don't have a dependency on it because it's installed everywhere nevertheless.

The most prominent example might be:

# strings /lib64/libc.so.6 |grep zoneinfo /usr/share/zoneinfo

I'm not a glibc expert, but I'd say the above is a strong indicator that glibc should require zoneinfo...

glibc needs /etc/localtime, the rest is optional. If you want "TZ=Europe/Berlin date" to work, you need the zoneinfo files. With optional I mean: glibc will work and not crash. If you need to show your time in several timezones, you have to install the timezone package. So, a strong recommends? Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 19.11.2012 23:42, schrieb Christian Boltz:

Hello,

Am Montag, 19. November 2012 schrieb Andreas Jaeger:

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glibc needs /etc/localtime, the rest is optional.

glibc works fine without /etc/localtime AFAICT, I have run embedded boxes without it for many years.

# rpm -qf /etc/localtime timezone-2012j-1.1.x86_64

...

If you want "TZ=Europe/Berlin date" to work, you need the zoneinfo files.

With optional I mean: glibc will work and not crash. If you need to show your time in several timezones, you have to install the timezone package.

So, a strong recommends?

/etc/localtime is an indicator for a requires IMHO - or a good reason to move /etc/localtime to another package ;-)

susi:~ # file /etc/localtime /etc/localtime: timezone data, version 2, 8 gmt time flags, 8 std time flags, no leap seconds, 144 transition times, 8 abbreviation chars susi:~ # md5sum /etc/localtime 4790e83465681cefbf852aed265354bf /etc/localtime susi:~ # rpm -ql timezone|xargs md5sum 2>/dev/null|grep 4790e8 4790e83465681cefbf852aed265354bf /etc/localtime 4790e83465681cefbf852aed265354bf /usr/share/zoneinfo/Europe/Berlin 4790e83465681cefbf852aed265354bf /usr/share/zoneinfo/posix/Europe/Berlin 4790e83465681cefbf852aed265354bf /usr/share/zoneinfo/posixrules /etc/localtime is actually a copy of the zoneinfo file that matches your timezone settings in yast or wherever (/etc/sysconfig/* ?) But anyway, glibc will work fine without it, just some applications (most of them) might be confused. And since we are talking about a 1.2MB installed size, it probably even does not warrant occasional build problems caused by leaving it out of the build system. I'm not sure what was broken that needed to be fixed by not installing timezone by default in the build system. -- Stefan Seyfried "If your lighter runs out of fluid or flint and stops making fire, and you can't be bothered to figure out about lighter fluid or flint, that is not Zippo's fault." -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:02:34AM +0100, Ruediger Meier wrote: [ 8< ]

I have 2 packages where the test suite fails because of missing zoneinfo.

Therefore add timezone to the BuildRequires as others have told you before.

Other packages may just silently skip timezone related test or even worse skip building in date/time related features.

That's something a reasonable package maintainer has to decide. Please enhance the wiki and merge your experience. That will allow other package maintainers to check themself if their particular software might benefit from an available timezone package at build time. Cheers, Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team + SUSE Labs SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

Quoting Ruediger Meier :

...

Please enhance the wiki and merge your experience. That will allow other package maintainers to check themself if their particular software might benefit from an available timezone package at build time.

Now I've already wasted some time with this and I don't want to continue it.

Why does everybody think producing proper packages (and documentation for them) is a waste of time ? :( Packaging is *NOT* the 5 minute spare cycle where one would not know what else to do with... it's a serious task resulting in what we call a distribution. Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 20 November 2012, Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar wrote:

Quoting Ruediger Meier :

...

...

Please enhance the wiki and merge your experience. That will allow other package maintainers to check themself if their particular software might benefit from an available timezone package at build time.

Now I've already wasted some time with this and I don't want to continue it.

Why does everybody think producing proper packages (and documentation for them) is a waste of time ? :(

Packaging is *NOT* the 5 minute spare cycle where one would not know what else to do with... it's a serious task resulting in what we call a distribution.

I don't think that's a 5 minute spare job. But for me it's really annoying if others are wasing my time. Note that removing timezone was not even announced. Suddenly I found some broken builds and had to investigate why they were broken - just to find out that I have to add some more stupid lines to get something which is available on any system and which would even be installed on a "Linux from scratch" per default. But I call it luck that I found fully broken packages rather than just silently having missing or untested features. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 05:23:37PM +0100, Lars Müller wrote:

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 05:08:20PM +0100, Ruediger Meier wrote:

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Note that removing timezone was not even announced.

@Adrian, Michael: was this change caused by the recent OBS update?

Unlikely. I guess the following change to the Factory config is the cause: $ osc rdiff -c 281 openSUSE:Factory _project [...] -# Drop candidates fourth round -Support: pwdutils glibc-locale timezone - -# required by rpm-build now -Support: file gawk [...] $ osc log -r 281 openSUSE:Factory _project r281 | coolo | 2012-11-04 09:48:44 | f1dca0a91274bfad0b8fc2d2f21b6b2a | None So it should be already gone since over two weeks. Cheers, Michael. -- Michael Schroeder mls@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF Jeff Hawn, HRB 16746 AG Nuernberg main(_){while(_=~getchar())putchar(~_-1/(~(_|32)/13*2-11)*13);} -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/20/2012 09:47 PM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am 20.11.2012 17:35, schrieb Michael Schroeder:

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On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 05:23:37PM +0100, Lars Müller wrote:

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On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 05:08:20PM +0100, Ruediger Meier wrote:

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Note that removing timezone was not even announced.

@Adrian, Michael: was this change caused by the recent OBS update?

Unlikely. I guess the following change to the Factory config is the cause:

$ osc rdiff -c 281 openSUSE:Factory _project [...] -# Drop candidates fourth round -Support: pwdutils glibc-locale timezone - -# required by rpm-build now -Support: file gawk [...] $ osc log -r 281 openSUSE:Factory _project r281 | coolo | 2012-11-04 09:48:44 | f1dca0a91274bfad0b8fc2d2f21b6b2a | None

So it should be already gone since over two weeks.

No, https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/140926

Coolo, please tell us here on the list when you make such changes to avoid surprises. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 21 November 2012, Stephan Kulow wrote:

On 20.11.2012 22:13, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

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Coolo, please tell us here on the list when you make such changes to avoid surprises.

This list is actually completely irrelevant for this as I submitted fixes for all factory packages before I did that change.

How did you found out which packages would be affected and which packages you had to fix? cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 2012-11-20 16:45, Ruediger Meier wrote:

I wonder why we don't provide a completely empty build system to the packager.

The packager gets an - *almost* - empty buildroot. What can be dropped and what's better left in is a constant Work In Progress. For example, with 12.2, automake,autoconf,libtool all were removed from the installed-by-default set. Arguably, removing gcc and make from the default set is not as useful as it is for timezone, as so many more packages depend on it. But maybe in due future time, we will also be there and require BuildRequires: binutils, make, gcc, .. like some other distros already do. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 2012-11-21 15:19, Bernhard M. Wiedemann wrote:

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The packager gets an - *almost* - empty buildroot. What can be dropped and what's better left in is a constant Work In Progress. For example, with 12.2, automake,autoconf,libtool all were removed from the installed-by-default set.

Arguably, removing gcc and make from the default set is not as useful as it is for timezone, as so many more packages depend on it. But maybe in due future time, we will also be there and require BuildRequires: binutils, make, gcc, .. like some other distros already do.

which (given proper meta-packages) would be nicer if written as BuildRequires: c-devel

But when you consider what to actually put in as requires for c-devel, what would it be? I have a personal metapackage just like that, so I just went through it by line: autoconf automake bison flex gcc-c++ libtool Not everybody needs these, which is why they are left out of prjconf today already patch Only needed if you have %patch or that binutils glibc-devel make Certainly want these in any case, all kinds of non-C compilers likes to have this. So they are already in prjconf and should stay there. gcc The only one left. noarch does not need this. So there is not anything besides gcc that's applying to more than average C software packages. Just drop the idea with c-devel and specify BuildRequires: gcc directly.

Then we could finally build perl/python/ruby rpms without having gcc. On the downside it would be quite some effort to update everything else.

Thumbs up to that one. (Do note however that XS-using perl modules do need a compiler, so there will be quite some BR:gcc adding to be done.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org