[opensuse-factory] RFC: use case for USB image (fate#305658)

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Stephan Kulow

27 Apr 2009 27 Apr '09

13:35

Hi, It has been my goal to support the LiveCD ISO also on a USB and let it make the changes you do in ~linux store persistently on the USB stick (so you can e.g. try easily the same thing on different computers). Now I got my first bug report claiming this is not wanted and should only be done if explicitly asked for. Now it's me against the user and I can of course easily close WONTFIX, but I wonder what others thing: what is the use case of storing the live cd on a USB stick? Give me some background: The ISO is a .iso meant to be written on a optical disc (CD-R,CD-RW,DVD-R,DVD-RW). There the file system will be purely readonly and all changes end up in memory. But as newer syslinux can boot ISOs also from hard drives, there is a new option: put the .iso file raw on a usb stick - overwriting the partition table, losing all data. So you would have 700MB on a 4G stick, there is the question why you would want to store things in memory if you have plenty of room on the stick. And then there is a 3rd option: copy the _content_ of the .iso into an existant vfat file system and create a vfat mbr (using syslinux). There the changes would end up as additional file in the vfat and may take up some room that you might want for other things. In both cases the changes to the ISO will be an additional file (named copy- on-write - .cow) that is easy to erase if you want to start from scratch. The bug in question is #498311. Greetings, Stephan P.S. If you ever wanted to tell me what colour you love your USB sticks in, feel free to go ahead. I got used to off topic replies. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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Dominique Leuenberger

27 Apr 27 Apr

13:48

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: use case for USB image (fate#305658)

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On 4/27/2009 at 13:35, Stephan Kulow wrote: Hi,

It has been my goal to support the LiveCD ISO also on a USB and let it make the changes you do in ~linux store persistently on the USB stick (so you can e.g. try easily the same thing on different computers).

Now I got my first bug report claiming this is not wanted and should only be done if explicitly asked for. Now it's me against the user and I can of course easily close WONTFIX, but I wonder what others thing: what is the use case of storing the live cd on a USB stick?

I think for me the most interesting would be to have 'my' system follow me. Something which I can't do on a live CD but I could with a 'live' memory stick, like taking my bookmarks and the like. Hmm.. maybe a boot option to read or skip the .cow could serve all people... but then some might argue this is to complex.

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Greetings, Stephan P.S. If you ever wanted to tell me what colour you love your USB sticks in, feel free to go ahead. I got used to off topic replies.

Err.. in this case: BLUE with PINK stripes, best with yellow dots? :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

13:58

Am Montag 27 April 2009 schrieb Dominique Leuenberger:

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On 4/27/2009 at 13:35, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Hi,

It has been my goal to support the LiveCD ISO also on a USB and let it make the changes you do in ~linux store persistently on the USB stick (so you can e.g. try easily the same thing on different computers).

Now I got my first bug report claiming this is not wanted and should only be done if explicitly asked for. Now it's me against the user and I can of course easily close WONTFIX, but I wonder what others thing: what is the use case of storing the live cd on a USB stick?

I think for me the most interesting would be to have 'my' system follow me. Something which I can't do on a live CD but I could with a 'live' memory stick, like taking my bookmarks and the like.

Would you really use that system a lot? If so, then a live stick might not be what you want, but rather a full .raw that you deploy on a dedicated stick using a real partition table and ext3. With the live system, you wouldn't even be able to do a meaningful online update without wasting a lot of space. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

14:31

* Stephan Kulow [04-27-09 08:00]:

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Am Montag 27 April 2009 schrieb Dominique Leuenberger:

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I think for me the most interesting would be to have 'my' system follow me. Something which I can't do on a live CD but I could with a 'live' memory stick, like taking my bookmarks and the like.

I like this the best. I would like to carry my system-ona-stick with me to use *anywhere* (provided machine capable) *with* my desired modifications. Defaulting to using my mods unless I access *some* boot time switch.

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Would you really use that system a lot? If so, then a live stick might not be what you want, but rather a full .raw that you deploy on a dedicated stick using a real partition table and ext3.

yes

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With the live system, you wouldn't even be able to do a meaningful online update without wasting a lot of space.

tks, -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander

14:04

Mandag den 27. april 2009 13:35:38 skrev Stephan Kulow:

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Now I got my first bug report claiming this is not wanted and should only be done if explicitly asked for. Now it's me against the user and I can of course easily close WONTFIX, but I wonder what others thing: what is the use case of storing the live cd on a USB stick?

I'd say the main use case is to be able to easily install openSUSE on netbooks or other boxes with no built in cd/dvd drive. Unless the writing done on the usb stick causes "unclean" installations. I don't see how it's a problem. But if it's feasible to make the writing optional, with read-only being the default, that would probably be for the best. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

14:14

Am Montag 27 April 2009 schrieb Martin Schlander:

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Mandag den 27. april 2009 13:35:38 skrev Stephan Kulow:

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Now I got my first bug report claiming this is not wanted and should only be done if explicitly asked for. Now it's me against the user and I can of course easily close WONTFIX, but I wonder what others thing: what is the use case of storing the live cd on a USB stick?

I'd say the main use case is to be able to easily install openSUSE on netbooks or other boxes with no built in cd/dvd drive.

Unless the writing done on the usb stick causes "unclean" installations. I don't see how it's a problem. It will be as unclean as the system changes you have in your RAM.

But if it's feasible to make the writing optional, with read-only being the default, that would probably be for the best.

Why it's feasible? You say yourself there is no problem and it only makes it harder for people to use. Allowing a livero boot paramter deeply hidden in some wiki page is another story of course, I'm talking about the default. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

jdd

14:58

Stephan Kulow a écrit :

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Hi,

It has been my goal to support the LiveCD ISO also on a USB and let it make the changes you do in ~linux store persistently on the USB stick (so you can e.g. try easily the same thing on different computers).

is ~linux your home? if so it seems good ("persistent" data)

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Now I got my first bug report claiming this is not wanted and should only be done if explicitly asked for.

I don't see really the problem if the image itself is not modified?

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is the question why you would want to store things in memory if you have plenty of room on the stick.

I dont see any interest in this option, but if it's really simple to implement...

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And then there is a 3rd option: copy the _content_ of the .iso into an existant vfat file system and create a vfat mbr (using syslinux). There the changes would end up as additional file in the vfat and may take up some room that you might want for other things.

why vfat? one can une NTFS or ext2

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In both cases the changes to the ISO will be an additional file (named copy- on-write - .cow) that is easy to erase if you want to start from scratch.

that's good. In fact, I presume in some time (months? years?) when booting on USB will be more standardized, having the system on USB may be largely spread. for now, many computer don't boot USB, or not always :-(. Puppy Linux and Parted magic allow creation of very small bootable USB key, but I have to admit that the only time I had to use it, the computer didn't allow it to boot :-( * don't forget USB can be very large, even hard drive * include flash cards (sd card) with non /dev/sdx device name jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

15:35

Am Montag 27 April 2009 schrieb jdd:

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Stephan Kulow a écrit :

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Hi,

It has been my goal to support the LiveCD ISO also on a USB and let it make the changes you do in ~linux store persistently on the USB stick (so you can e.g. try easily the same thing on different computers).

is ~linux your home? if so it seems good ("persistent" data) Huh? ~linux is the home of linux, the livecd user.

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And then there is a 3rd option: copy the _content_ of the .iso into an existant vfat file system and create a vfat mbr (using syslinux). There the changes would end up as additional file in the vfat and may take up some room that you might want for other things.

why vfat? one can une NTFS or ext2 You know things about syslinux I don't know?

Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

jdd

17:20

Stephan Kulow a écrit :

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is ~linux your home? if so it seems good ("persistent" data) Huh? ~linux is the home of linux, the livecd user.

ok, thats good

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why vfat? one can une NTFS or ext2 You know things about syslinux I don't know?

probably not :-) but run Linux on vfat? better not jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz

15:25

Le lundi 27 avril 2009, à 13:35 +0200, Stephan Kulow a écrit :

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Hi,

It has been my goal to support the LiveCD ISO also on a USB and let it make the changes you do in ~linux store persistently on the USB stick (so you can e.g. try easily the same thing on different computers).

Now I got my first bug report claiming this is not wanted and should only be done if explicitly asked for. Now it's me against the user and I can of course easily close WONTFIX, but I wonder what others thing: what is the use case of storing the live cd on a USB stick?

Agree with you. By default, I think it makes sense to write on the stick. But I can imagine that for demo purposes, it'd be nice to have a "Reset to default settings" option that would just wipe out all the user data (in ~linux). (or if it's possible to reset everything, then that could work too) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Marcel Hilzinger

18:55

Am Montag, 27. April 2009 15:25:18 schrieb Vincent Untz: [...]

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Agree with you. By default, I think it makes sense to write on the stick.

But I can imagine that for demo purposes, it'd be nice to have a "Reset to default settings" option that would just wipe out all the user data (in ~linux). (or if it's possible to reset everything, then that could work too)

Have a look at Slax. It provides two entries in the boot menue. The first one starts a persistent system, the second one with clean settings. This would be a nice feature. Read-only-mode must not be the default one for USB sticks, it's just silly. -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Marcel Hilzinger Linux New Media AG, Putzbrunner Str. 71, 81739 München, Germany Tel: +49 89 99 34 110, Fax: +49 89 99 34 1199 mhilzinger@linuxnewmedia.de - http://www.linuxnewmedia.de ---------------------------------------------------------- Linux New Media, the Pulse of Open Source: Lawrence, KS - Málaga Manchester - München - São Paulo - Warszawa ---------------------------------------------------------- Sitz der Gesellschaft: Putzbrunner Str. 71, 81739 München Amtsgericht München: HRB 129161 Vorstand: Brian Osborn, Hermann Plank Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Rudolf Strobl -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Luiz Fernando Ranghetti

28 Apr 28 Apr

00:40

Hi, I frequently use the 3rd option (generally to install development versions of openSUSE without having to burn discs) Where I extract the content of .iso file, and change some lines in initrd to look for USB drive instead of de CDROM. I don't like the raw USB images (like the ones in susestudio) because they take forever to 'install' on usb drivers and that's a price that I don't want to pay ;-) Of course, this is my use case... Regards, Luiz 2009/4/27 Marcel Hilzinger :

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Am Montag, 27. April 2009 15:25:18 schrieb Vincent Untz: [...]

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Agree with you. By default, I think it makes sense to write on the stick.

But I can imagine that for demo purposes, it'd be nice to have a "Reset to default settings" option that would just wipe out all the user data (in ~linux). (or if it's possible to reset everything, then that could work too)

Have a look at Slax. It provides two entries in the boot menue. The first one starts a persistent system, the second one with clean settings. This would be a nice feature.

Read-only-mode must not be the default one for USB sticks, it's just silly.

-- Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Marcel Hilzinger

Linux New Media AG, Putzbrunner Str. 71, 81739 München, Germany Tel: +49 89 99 34 110, Fax: +49 89 99 34 1199 mhilzinger@linuxnewmedia.de - http://www.linuxnewmedia.de ---------------------------------------------------------- Linux New Media, the Pulse of Open Source: Lawrence, KS - Málaga Manchester - München - São Paulo - Warszawa ---------------------------------------------------------- Sitz der Gesellschaft: Putzbrunner Str. 71, 81739 München Amtsgericht München: HRB 129161 Vorstand: Brian Osborn, Hermann Plank Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Rudolf Strobl -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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Dominique Leuenberger
jdd
Luiz Fernando Ranghetti
Marcel Hilzinger
Martin Schlander
Patrick Shanahan
Stephan Kulow
Vincent Untz