[opensuse-factory] Czech Packagers Meeting minutes 2009-02-03
Czech Packagers Meeting minutes 2009-02-03 ========================================== Present: anicka, mhrusecky, mseben, mvyskocil, nadvornik, prusnak, sbrabec Minutes: anicka Topics: (1) Missing Manpages (1) Missing Manpages ==================== As an internal discussion shows, most of the developers generally agree that policy of having manpage for every executable would bring us benefits. There are several different ways how to do it: We could profit on the fact that Debian has similar policy for ages and their manpages are usually written in a very good quality. But we would have to find a way how to keep our different versions of packages in sync with these manpages. We could also generate very simple manpages containing just a link to the proper documention using ie. help2man. We think that as for packages with upstream reluctant to take care for manpages, common repository for all the distributors would be a great help. And of course, executables might be just a first step - it would be very convenient to have a manpage containing useful information for every config file, or, especially, for every init script. Status reports: =============== anicka - rrdtool: work on #467362 - mediawiki: fix CVE-2008-5250, CVE-2008-5252 (bnc#459058) - puppet: work on #465778 - pciutils: update to 3.1.2 - openssh: close #464315, #459287 - perl modules: fix some of them to run testsuites correctly mhrusecky - updating MyODBC-unixODBC - working on bnc#420817 mseben - investigating #225463 - atd priority queue fix - working on amanda 2.6.1 update - working on new kchmviewer4 package mvyskocil - fixed bnc#468886: matthewlib-java unix server socket creation crashes due to a linking problem - checked some jexec problems in bugzilla: bnc#468970, bnc#471179 * all are duplicate of fixed bnc#463582 (in maintenance queue) - split a java-binfmt-misc from jpackage-utils and wrote a manual page for both packages. Sent a manual pages of jpackage-utils to upstream pgajdos - worked on #466437 -- lilypond: new upstream release 2.12 with spec fixes for documentation - worked on #460116 -- nscd.conf man page mentions non-existing functionality - moved some packages into Contrib (hypermail, xlhtml) new package graphthing prusnak - input-utils: fixed EVIOCGBIT call [bnc#472773] - freeradius-server: moved manpages to utils subpackage [bnc#469682] - open-vm-tools: fix desktop files -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2009-02-09 at 17:32 +0100, anicka@suse.cz wrote:
Czech Packagers Meeting minutes 2009-02-03 ... (1) Missing Manpages ====================
As an internal discussion shows, most of the developers generally agree that policy of having manpage for every executable would bring us benefits. There are several different ways how to do it: We could profit on the fact that Debian has similar policy for ages and their manpages are usually written in a very good quality. But we would have to find a way how to keep our different versions of packages in sync with these manpages. We could also generate very simple manpages containing just a link to the proper documention using ie. help2man.
We think that as for packages with upstream reluctant to take care for manpages, common repository for all the distributors would be a great help.
And of course, executables might be just a first step - it would be very convenient to have a manpage containing useful information for every config file, or, especially, for every init script.
You could consider whether translating manpages is interesting or not. Many pages are not translated, or the translation is obsolete and wrong. As a translator, I can tell you that it is quite difficult (for me) to translate a manpage, because there is no useful manpage writing program - ie, one that does not require the writer to be a programmer. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmU2rgACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WfPACggpytJJSdK+JkMn8fXVUQfmCC P3QAniaiv2gO/1mi29s6MM3EBVuT9Tdv =BdvW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
2009/2/13 Carlos E. R.
As a translator, I can tell you that it is quite difficult (for me) to translate a manpage, because there is no useful manpage writing program - ie, one that does not require the writer to be a programmer.
The man pages are simple text files with a few processing commands like .TH, .SH, .P, .br in them. So something like Gedit, Kate or Notepad is all that's needed. Some links explaining how man pages are created http://www.fnal.gov/docs/products/ups/ReferenceManual/html/manpages.html http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-mini/Man-Page.html As the subject matter is very technical, I'm wondering how someone not able to understand formatting directives (and avoid changing them) would be able to accurately translate the pages, leaving command and environmental names as is. Are you feeling that some kind of display tool is needed, to provide instant feedback on changes? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-02-13 at 10:03 -0000, Rob OpenSuSE wrote:
2009/2/13 Carlos E. R. <>:
As a translator, I can tell you that it is quite difficult (for me) to translate a manpage, because there is no useful manpage writing program - ie, one that does not require the writer to be a programmer.
The man pages are simple text files with a few processing commands like .TH, .SH, .P, .br in them. So something like Gedit, Kate or Notepad is all that's needed.
I know, but that is far from what I want. A programmer can be happy with that, a user (writer, translator) wants WYSIWYG. Yes, I have written (translated) man pages. I know what I say. It is doable, but not easy. I have to concentrate on the interface instead of the text. The fact is, most translated man pages are obsolete, and if it is really wanted to improve on that side, better tools are needed. I can't be very wrong considering how few pages are translated and of those how few are current. As for myself, I only translate a man page if I'm very, very interested in the particular project. Or else... find a new format, with easy writing tools, and use it distribution wide. No more man, info, html, pdf.
Some links explaining how man pages are created http://www.fnal.gov/docs/products/ups/ReferenceManual/html/manpages.html http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-mini/Man-Page.html
As the subject matter is very technical, I'm wondering how someone not able to understand formatting directives (and avoid changing them) would be able to accurately translate the pages, leaving command and environmental names as is.
Are you feeling that some kind of display tool is needed, to provide instant feedback on changes?
Exactly. Well, no. Not a display tool, but a full WYSIWYG editor. Text mode is fine, no GUI needed. You can have a look at "manedit". It is poorly maintained, does not support UTF (at least, as far as I know, of version 0.8.3. This is the closest tool I have been able to find. There are other tools that say can do it, but are broken. For example: LyX. And no, docbook is another no-no. It is not WYSIWYG or WYMIWYG. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmV3lIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X2EACglXc9j/wjh2XKAWIOR8vsnKP+ 4DMAn0VXPadqpramJQkbse8jfZVNsWiE =kRGe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi,
As a translator, I can tell you that it is quite difficult (for me) to translate a manpage, because there is no useful manpage writing program - ie, one that does not require the writer to be a programmer.
The man pages are simple text files with a few processing commands like .TH, .SH, .P, .br in them. So something like Gedit, Kate or Notepad is all that's needed.
I know, but that is far from what I want. A programmer can be happy with that, a user (writer, translator) wants WYSIWYG.
Yes, I have written (translated) man pages. I know what I say. It is doable, but not easy. I have to concentrate on the interface instead of the text. have you had a look at asciidoc (http://www.methods.co.nz/asciidoc/) it generates man pages and other output, but has a nice syntax to write them in.
regards Felix Möller -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-02-13 at 22:01 +0100, Felix Möller wrote:
Yes, I have written (translated) man pages. I know what I say. It is doable, but not easy. I have to concentrate on the interface instead of the text. have you had a look at asciidoc (http://www.methods.co.nz/asciidoc/) it generates man pages and other output, but has a nice syntax to write them in.
I'll have a look, but what I do not want is any syntax. I do not see any syntax when I use openoffice, for instance, it is hidden. At least, the editor must have a switch to display the "codes" or the final result, instantly. Granted, it is an easy syntax... but for each paragraph I need to "compile" to see the result. Tedious. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmV4vIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V4xwCfTs2hDgBbsRAx8pllzifmnLQ4 lGsAn17nngUWLA2pTHM7K7tC5KyeXBNZ =p8T7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Le vendredi 13 février 2009, à 03:27 +0100, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
As a translator, I can tell you that it is quite difficult (for me) to translate a manpage, because there is no useful manpage writing program - ie, one that does not require the writer to be a programmer.
You can use po files: http://po4a.alioth.debian.org/ (can and should, I guess ;-)) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-02-13 at 16:40 +0100, Vincent Untz wrote:
Le vendredi 13 février 2009, à 03:27 +0100, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
As a translator, I can tell you that it is quite difficult (for me) to translate a manpage, because there is no useful manpage writing program - ie, one that does not require the writer to be a programmer.
You can use po files: http://po4a.alioth.debian.org/ (can and should, I guess ;-))
Do you know of any project that uses po files for manpages? I have seen none. If you know of one I could have a look. The developpers of each project have to do the changes first, create the .pot files, scripts, tools... translators can not do that. But I doubt po files are appropiate. You can not add/modify the format (this word is *bold*, for instance. Or indent here.). The po format is "fine" for programs, but I don't see it as appropiate for free text. I don't see that addressed in the link you posted? No samples. Just a proposal. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmV4TgACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WgEwCfeDDcDNOrbqKfQ3KYCoTjAph4 hFoAoIo0xwL1+OHt0iBdMMFPvgIFClGe =4x91 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Le vendredi 13 février 2009, à 22:08 +0100, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On Friday, 2009-02-13 at 16:40 +0100, Vincent Untz wrote:
Le vendredi 13 février 2009, à 03:27 +0100, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
As a translator, I can tell you that it is quite difficult (for me) to translate a manpage, because there is no useful manpage writing program - ie, one that does not require the writer to be a programmer.
You can use po files: http://po4a.alioth.debian.org/ (can and should, I guess ;-))
Do you know of any project that uses po files for manpages? I have seen none. If you know of one I could have a look.
http://www.debian.org/intl/l10n/po4a/ (fwiw, I didn't know of any, I just searched with google and found this)
The developpers of each project have to do the changes first, create the .pot files, scripts, tools... translators can not do that.
But I doubt po files are appropiate. You can not add/modify the format (this word is *bold*, for instance. Or indent here.). The po format is "fine" for programs, but I don't see it as appropiate for free text.
Err. I don't see the problem here. Po files are used in documentation in GNOME, eg, and there's no issue like the ones you're pointing at. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-02-13 at 22:28 +0100, Vincent Untz wrote:
You can use po files: http://po4a.alioth.debian.org/ (can and should, I guess ;-))
Do you know of any project that uses po files for manpages? I have seen none. If you know of one I could have a look.
http://www.debian.org/intl/l10n/po4a/ (fwiw, I didn't know of any, I just searched with google and found this)
Thanks. I'm not good with google. I downloaded http://i18n.debian.net/material/po/unstable/main/f/fakeroot/doc/po4a/po/fake... to have a look at it.
The developpers of each project have to do the changes first, create the .pot files, scripts, tools... translators can not do that.
But I doubt po files are appropiate. You can not add/modify the format (this word is *bold*, for instance. Or indent here.). The po format is "fine" for programs, but I don't see it as appropiate for free text.
Err. I don't see the problem here. Po files are used in documentation in GNOME, eg, and there's no issue like the ones you're pointing at.
I do, I found the very problem I'm complaining about. Look:
# type: Plain text
#: ../../doc/fakeroot.1:38
msgid ""
"B<fakeroot> B<[-l|--lib> I
participants (5)
-
anicka@suse.cz
-
Carlos E. R.
-
Felix Möller
-
Rob OpenSuSE
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Vincent Untz