[opensuse-factory] Releases going forward

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Robert Schweikert

30 Jan 2014 30 Jan '14

17:54

Hi, Releases going forward, or, how do we release without full time paid worker bees? With all the discussion toward the end of last year I suppose that today's e-mail "Timeline and roadmap V2" [1] finally shed light on the inevitable conclusion, the openSUSE team (@SUSE) will spend more time on other stuff and less time, if any, on turning the release crank. This is the team's prerogative just like everyone is free to work on the project, or not, in areas of interest to them. We can argue whether the way this is coming about is giving the project the best chance to succeed or whether the transition is being put worth in a nice and friendly way, but I think we should not go down that path. Thanks! to the openSUSE Team for the hard work they have put forth in the past to turning the release crank, it is much appreciated. I think the time has come to move forward and deal with the new situation. As of right now we still have a release cycle of 8 month. That would put us into May for openSUSE 13.2. This brings about two questions: - Given the current situation can we meet a May release date? - Do we skip the May release and move to a yearly cycle and release 13.2 in November of 2014? During last year's discussions there were a number of people favoring a yearly release cycle. We have to make a decision, - stick to 8 month or move to 12 month? Voice your opinion but stick to the point and please be concise. For simplicity lets just assume that there will be no full time paid help to turn the release crank and that the work is all on those that are not part of the openSUSE Team. Under any circumstances I'd say our first go around will be a bit rough around the edges and that's OK, we have to learn. What do I have to offer? After all stuff will not get done by me sending an e-mail into the world. I offer to take on part of the role of "Release Manager". I will not be able to do all of it and I have a new definition for the role (see below.) Stephan did way more and was always the tireless worker that brought everything together. No one that does not work on openSUSE full time can obviously fulfill that role, thus we have to split things up. I figure there are about 60 to 70 hours worth of work per week that we have to distribute. I'll define "Release Manager" as: The person or group that runs after people, keeps an eye on the schedule and tries to herd the cats to get the stuff fixed that is broken. I am willing to take part of that role, and with this mail hopefully be a rallying point to put openSUSE releases on a bit more of a solid footing than where we are today, after [1]. If we go this route it implies that everyone that has stuff in Factory, what will become the next release, nothing there changes, has more responsibility in helping out than they do today. We no longer have people that can fix everything and get to spend all their time on the distribution and integration of stuff. Every maintainer has more responsibility. So where do we go from here? Do we bootstrap an effort to get a release out the door without openSUSE @SUSE or do we drift along in the uncertainty of "maybe we know something in August"? I am happy to be a rallying point and fulfill part of the role of "Release Manager" as outlined above. Maintainers/Packagers be heard, speak up, but lets not drift into rat holes, the situation is actually quite simple. Later, Robert [1] http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2014-01/msg00350.html -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU SUSE-IBM Software Integration Center LINUX Tech Lead Public Cloud Architect rjschwei@suse.com rschweik@ca.ibm.com 781-464-8147 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

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Shawn W Dunn

30 Jan 30 Jan

17:57

On Thursday 30 January 2014 12:54:19 Robert Schweikert wrote:

...

Hi,

...

As of right now we still have a release cycle of 8 month. That would put us into May for openSUSE 13.2.

This brings about two questions:

- Given the current situation can we meet a May release date? - Do we skip the May release and move to a yearly cycle and release 13.2 in November of 2014?

During last year's discussions there were a number of people favoring a yearly release cycle. We have to make a decision,

- stick to 8 month or move to 12 month?

I vote for a 12 month release cycle. 8 month is too fast for the manpower we have available. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Yamaban

18:21

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Releases going forward

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 18:54, Robert Schweikert wrote: <snip>

...

As of right now we still have a release cycle of 8 month. That would put us into May for openSUSE 13.2.

This brings about two questions:

- Given the current situation can we meet a May release date? - Do we skip the May release and move to a yearly cycle and release 13.2 in November of 2014?

During last year's discussions there were a number of people favoring a yearly release cycle. We have to make a decision,

- stick to 8 month or move to 12 month?

Voice your opinion but stick to the point and please be concise. For simplicity lets just assume that there will be no full time paid help to turn the release crank and that the work is all on those that are not part of the openSUSE Team.

Question to the SLE Team: - What's the planned release / gold-master date for SLE-12? Why? IMHO releaseing the next OSS (13.2) at least 4-8 weeks prior to that would give the SLE team some time to cleanup the remaining / fresh detected issues and eleminate them before publishing them to paying customers. Whether 8 or 12 month, it's a question of 'how much "freshness" would we (as distro) loose' -- personally nothing against 12 month cycle. Thanks for all the effort, time, sweat, and tears. - Yamaban. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

31 Jan 31 Jan

04:57

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Releases going forward

On 31/01/14 05:21, Yamaban wrote:

...

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 18:54, Robert Schweikert wrote: <snip>

...
As of right now we still have a release cycle of 8 month. That would put us into May for openSUSE 13.2.

This brings about two questions:

- Given the current situation can we meet a May release date? - Do we skip the May release and move to a yearly cycle and release 13.2 in November of 2014?

During last year's discussions there were a number of people favoring a yearly release cycle. We have to make a decision,

- stick to 8 month or move to 12 month?

Voice your opinion but stick to the point and please be concise. For simplicity lets just assume that there will be no full time paid help to turn the release crank and that the work is all on those that are not part of the openSUSE Team.

Question to the SLE Team: - What's the planned release / gold-master date for SLE-12?

Why? IMHO releaseing the next OSS (13.2) at least 4-8 weeks prior to that would give the SLE team some time to cleanup the remaining / fresh detected issues and eleminate them before publishing them to paying customers.

Whether 8 or 12 month, it's a question of 'how much "freshness" would we (as distro) loose' -- personally nothing against 12 month cycle.

Thanks for all the effort, time, sweat, and tears.

- Yamaban.

S.u.S.E. Professional started off as a paid-for distribution in 2 flavlurs: 1) where you only received 3 months of support; and 2) at an additional cost you received support until .......(?). So, what is the cost of SLE? and can it be transformed into its original form as I just described above? Casting openSUSE to the wind is the same as what Canonical did to Kubuntu. BC -- A civilisation is judged by how it treats the most vulnerable. Lauren Smith - 30 January 2014 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Frederic Crozat

09:49

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Releases going forward

Le jeudi 30 janvier 2014 à 19:21 +0100, Yamaban a écrit :

...

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 18:54, Robert Schweikert wrote: <snip>

...
As of right now we still have a release cycle of 8 month. That would put us into May for openSUSE 13.2.

This brings about two questions:

- Given the current situation can we meet a May release date? - Do we skip the May release and move to a yearly cycle and release 13.2 in November of 2014?

During last year's discussions there were a number of people favoring a yearly release cycle. We have to make a decision,

- stick to 8 month or move to 12 month?

Voice your opinion but stick to the point and please be concise. For simplicity lets just assume that there will be no full time paid help to turn the release crank and that the work is all on those that are not part of the openSUSE Team.

Question to the SLE Team: - What's the planned release / gold-master date for SLE-12?

I can only share SLE 12 will be released in second half of 2014.

...

Why? IMHO releaseing the next OSS (13.2) at least 4-8 weeks prior to that would give the SLE team some time to cleanup the remaining / fresh detected issues and eleminate them before publishing them to paying customers.

Please note SLE 12 work will be pushed back to openSUSE (whenever possible) but SLE people aren't bound to openSUSE releases, so there is no point to try to sync openSUSE on SLE 12 releases. -- Frederic Crozat SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

plinnell

2 Feb 2 Feb

03:19

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Releases going forward

On Fri, 31 Jan 2014 10:49:34 +0100 Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

Le jeudi 30 janvier 2014 à 19:21 +0100, Yamaban a écrit :

...
On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 18:54, Robert Schweikert wrote: <snip>

...
As of right now we still have a release cycle of 8 month. That would put us into May for openSUSE 13.2.

This brings about two questions:

- Given the current situation can we meet a May release date? - Do we skip the May release and move to a yearly cycle and release 13.2 in November of 2014?

During last year's discussions there were a number of people favoring a yearly release cycle. We have to make a decision,

- stick to 8 month or move to 12 month?

Voice your opinion but stick to the point and please be concise. For simplicity lets just assume that there will be no full time paid help to turn the release crank and that the work is all on those that are not part of the openSUSE Team.

Question to the SLE Team: - What's the planned release / gold-master date for SLE-12?

I can only share SLE 12 will be released in second half of 2014.

...
Why? IMHO releaseing the next OSS (13.2) at least 4-8 weeks prior to that would give the SLE team some time to cleanup the remaining / fresh detected issues and eleminate them before publishing them to paying customers.

Please note SLE 12 work will be pushed back to openSUSE (whenever possible) but SLE people aren't bound to openSUSE releases, so there is no point to try to sync openSUSE on SLE 12 releases.

Let me put some emphasis on what Frederic and some of the other openSUSE team members have said. Hopefully, this is a way to sum things up: First, I am sending this from my openSUSE.org hat, as a former board member and one who you can safely say cares a lot about openSUSE. Since I have joined SUSE and have seen the "inside", the community should not doubt for a second SUSE's commitment to openSUSE. I think it is fair to say from all that I know that SUSE feels the health and success of openSUSE is vital. That comes from the executive team down. Attachmate as a company gives SUSE a great deal of independence. In fact, without getting into particulars, Attachmate sees SUSE as a vital part of its growth. Just looking at the investments going into SUSE and openSUSE is the proof. What Coolo and others want to focus on is the fact that we are a victim of our and OBS's success. openSUSE has become a much larger distro in terms of packages and participation in Factory, both from SUSE folks, but from the community. In a word, Coolo can only scale so much, even though he has done a masterful job at being a release manager. That comes from someone who was paid to be a release manager on a large complex software project. So, the idea is to work on making it easier for OBS, openQA and other parts of the system to allow the community to own the release management part of what we do. As for SLE 12, that is a separate code stream from openSUSE, even if it based on openSUSE. I'm pretty excited at the features which will be part of SLE 12 and will help to drive innovation into the next openSUSE release. Even if the release had some possibly negative connotations, this is good forward thinking by the openSUSE team. Hope this helps, Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Christian Boltz

18:54

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Releases going forward

Hello, Am Samstag, 1. Februar 2014 schrieb plinnell:

...

On Fri, 31 Jan 2014 10:49:34 +0100 Frederic Crozat wrote:

...
Le jeudi 30 janvier 2014 à 19:21 +0100, Yamaban a écrit :

...

...
...
Question to the SLE Team: - What's the planned release / gold-master date for SLE-12?

I can only share SLE 12 will be released in second half of 2014.

Personally, I'm not too interested in SLE (I don't use it ;-) - but nevertheless knowing some more timeline details would be helpful. For example, as upstream of PostfixAdmin and (partly) AppArmor, it would be good to know something like "submit to Factory until $DATE if you want to be sure SLE will ship this version" would be good. Not "good for me" (again, I don't use SLE), but "good for SLE users" (because they'll get a more up-to-date version of $package) and also "good for SUSE" (because maintaining "old" versions can cause quite some work after upstream focuses on the new version, and that work could easily be avoided by having the newer version from the beginning). Sometimes people need a reason to do a release _now_ (instead next month), and knowing you'll get the new version into SLE can be a good motivation at least for some people and projects ;-)

...

...
...
Why? IMHO releaseing the next OSS (13.2) at least 4-8 weeks prior to that would give the SLE team some time to cleanup the remaining / fresh detected issues and eleminate them before publishing them to paying customers.

Please note SLE 12 work will be pushed back to openSUSE (whenever possible) but SLE people aren't bound to openSUSE releases, so there is no point to try to sync openSUSE on SLE 12 releases.

True, but OTOH it won't hurt. That said, if you release SLE12 before openSUSE 13.2, it should finally push the "openSUSE is the SLE testbed" opinion away ;-)

...

Since I have joined SUSE and have seen the "inside", the community should not doubt for a second SUSE's commitment to openSUSE. I think it is fair to say from all that I know that SUSE feels the health and success of openSUSE is vital. That comes from the executive team down.

I only have an external view (+ some insights from talking to various SUSE people[1]), nevertheless I can agree. Part of the motivation is probably to get some work done by volunteers, but I'm sure this is not the only and not the main motivation. The problem is probably that the mail from the openSUSE team sounded like "we'll stop working on factory and the openSUSE release, here's the password, do whatever you want with it" (ok, I'm exaggerating ;-) In the meantime (and several mails later), things were clarified. Nevertheless, the first mail was a bit ;-) shocking, and I'm not too surprised about the long and flamy discussion it caused.

...

Attachmate as a company gives SUSE a great deal of independence. In fact, without getting into particulars, Attachmate sees SUSE as a vital part of its growth. Just looking at the investments going into SUSE and openSUSE is the proof.

Maybe Attachmate or SUSE should invest in an "how to communicate with the community" training? *SCNR* Don't get me wrong - I don't want marketing speak, but avoiding at least every second stumbling block would be a good idea ;-) [2] Regards, Christian Boltz PS: non-random sig ;-) [1] some of them even thought I _am_ working for SUSE - maybe I submitted too many bugreports? ;-) [2] except if you want to give me enough content for a follow-up to my "1001 bugs" talk for one of the next openSUSE conferences *eg* --

...

...
We are sorry for any inconvience caused. [...] Now I'm *REALLY* annoyed. This is suse-security, not your press release forum. Ok, translated I want to say: "Yes, we fucked up. We try harder not to fuck up in the future." :) is this satisfyingly techy enough ? :) [> suse AT rio.vg and Marcus Meissner in suse-security]

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Frederic Crozat

3 Feb 3 Feb

10:30

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Releases going forward

Le dimanche 02 février 2014 à 19:54 +0100, Christian Boltz a écrit :

...

Hello,

Am Samstag, 1. Februar 2014 schrieb plinnell:

...
On Fri, 31 Jan 2014 10:49:34 +0100 Frederic Crozat wrote:

...
Le jeudi 30 janvier 2014 à 19:21 +0100, Yamaban a écrit :

...
...
...
Question to the SLE Team: - What's the planned release / gold-master date for SLE-12?

I can only share SLE 12 will be released in second half of 2014.

Personally, I'm not too interested in SLE (I don't use it ;-) - but nevertheless knowing some more timeline details would be helpful. For example, as upstream of PostfixAdmin and (partly) AppArmor, it would be good to know something like "submit to Factory until $DATE if you want to be sure SLE will ship this version" would be good.

Not "good for me" (again, I don't use SLE), but "good for SLE users" (because they'll get a more up-to-date version of $package) and also "good for SUSE" (because maintaining "old" versions can cause quite some work after upstream focuses on the new version, and that work could easily be avoided by having the newer version from the beginning).

Sometimes people need a reason to do a release _now_ (instead next month), and knowing you'll get the new version into SLE can be a good motivation at least for some people and projects ;-)

Well, from now until SLE12 release, it is up to individual SLE package maintainers to forward stuff happening on openSUSE, if they find relevant stuff for SLE (but also keep in mind we stress stability over features and we have internal code freeze, to ensure that). Rules of thumb: the sooner fixes is in Factory, the better ;)

...

...
...
...
Why? IMHO releaseing the next OSS (13.2) at least 4-8 weeks prior to that would give the SLE team some time to cleanup the remaining / fresh detected issues and eleminate them before publishing them to paying customers.

Please note SLE 12 work will be pushed back to openSUSE (whenever possible) but SLE people aren't bound to openSUSE releases, so there is no point to try to sync openSUSE on SLE 12 releases.

True, but OTOH it won't hurt.

That said, if you release SLE12 before openSUSE 13.2, it should finally push the "openSUSE is the SLE testbed" opinion away ;-)

Sorry, I can't give more precise informations on SLE12 schedule :( -- Frederic Crozat SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

30 Jan 30 Jan

18:24

On 2014-01-30 12:54 (GMT-0500) Robert Schweikert composed:

...

Releases going forward, or, how do we release without full time paid worker bees?

If there was announcement about end of paid workers, I missed it. What's the scoop? URL?

...

During last year's discussions there were a number of people favoring a yearly release cycle. We have to make a decision,

...

- stick to 8 month or move to 12 month?

Annual is often enough for me. IMO, BS repositories, including Tumbleweed, do well enough to make newer app versions available for those who need them.

...

I offer to take on part of the role of "Release Manager". I will not be able to do all of it and I have a new definition for the role (see below.) Stephan did way more and was always the tireless worker that brought everything together. No one that does not work on openSUSE full time can obviously fulfill that role, thus we have to split things up. I figure there are about 60 to 70 hours worth of work per week that we have to distribute.

...

I'll define "Release Manager" as:

...

The person or group that runs after people, keeps an eye on the schedule and tries to herd the cats to get the stuff fixed that is broken.

Maybe long term if not sooner, acquisition of a person somehow paid to fulfill Stephan's role aka "release manager" would be the better plan. Fedora seems to have such a person in the form of awilliam@redhat.com who had fulfilled a similar (unpaid?) role for Mandrake & Mandriva. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Bernhard Voelker

31 Jan 31 Jan

00:48

On 01/30/2014 07:24 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2014-01-30 12:54 (GMT-0500) Robert Schweikert composed:

...
Releases going forward, or, how do we release without full time paid worker bees?

If there was announcement about end of paid workers, I missed it. What's the scoop? URL?

yes, please - without more information about how and when SUSE will will decrease power in the openSUSE world, it's hard to give any answer to the other questions. Have a nice day, Berny -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz

05:01

Le vendredi 31 janvier 2014, à 01:48 +0100, Bernhard Voelker a écrit :

...

On 01/30/2014 07:24 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

...
On 2014-01-30 12:54 (GMT-0500) Robert Schweikert composed:

...
Releases going forward, or, how do we release without full time paid worker bees?

If there was announcement about end of paid workers, I missed it. What's the scoop? URL?

yes, please - without more information about how and when SUSE will will decrease power in the openSUSE world, it's hard to give any answer to the other questions.

There is no decrease in SUSE's involvement in openSUSE! As mentioned in Robert's mail, it's simply that the openSUSE team at SUSE is choosing to focus on other openSUSE topics that release engineering, in order to improve the quality of openSUSE. That includes openQA, workflow in OBS, etc. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

06:36

On 31/01/14 16:01, Vincent Untz wrote:

...

Le vendredi 31 janvier 2014, � 01:48 +0100, Bernhard Voelker a �crit :

...
On 01/30/2014 07:24 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

...
On 2014-01-30 12:54 (GMT-0500) Robert Schweikert composed:

...
Releases going forward, or, how do we release without full time paid worker bees? If there was announcement about end of paid workers, I missed it. What's the scoop? URL? yes, please - without more information about how and when SUSE will will decrease power in the openSUSE world, it's hard to give any answer to the other questions. There is no decrease in SUSE's involvement in openSUSE! As mentioned in Robert's mail, it's simply that the openSUSE team at SUSE is choosing to focus on other openSUSE topics that release engineering, in order to improve the quality of openSUSE. That includes openQA, workflow in OBS, etc.

Vincent

Vincent, you sound like our recently elected head of government which is putting about statements stating that the government will be cutting expenditures NOT to disadvantage the citizens but to improve their lives. Only the feeble minded believe him. If what you say is true - or what our fearless leader wants us to believe is true - then please have people who are articulate in explaining what s/he/they really mean. From what has been written, Attachmate is abandoning openSUSE just like Canonical abandoned Kubuntu. As simple as that. BC -- A civilisation is judged by how it treats the most vulnerable. Lauren Smith - 30 January 2014 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Michal Hrusecky

06:46

Basil Chupin - 17:36 31.01.14 wrote:

...

From what has been written, Attachmate is abandoning openSUSE just like Canonical abandoned Kubuntu. As simple as that.

No. As written, only openSUSE Team @ SUSE will change it's priorities and instead of pushing out yet another release focus on improving tools to make it simpler while invite community to get more involved. -- Michal HRUSECKY SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. openSUSE Team Lihovarska 1060/12 PGP 0xFED656F6 19000 Praha 9 mhrusecky[at]suse.cz Czech Republic http://michal.hrusecky.net http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Ancor Gonzalez Sosa

07:28

On 01/31/2014 07:36 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 31/01/14 16:01, Vincent Untz wrote:

...
There is no decrease in SUSE's involvement in openSUSE! As mentioned in Robert's mail, it's simply that the openSUSE team at SUSE is choosing to focus on other openSUSE topics that release engineering, in order to improve the quality of openSUSE. That includes openQA, workflow in OBS, etc.

Vincent

Vincent, you sound like our recently elected head of government which is putting about statements stating that the government will be cutting expenditures NOT to disadvantage the citizens but to improve their lives.

Only the feeble minded believe him.

If what you say is true - or what our fearless leader wants us to believe is true - then please have people who are articulate in explaining what s/he/they really mean.

From what has been written, Attachmate is abandoning openSUSE just like Canonical abandoned Kubuntu. As simple as that.

I will try to clarify the situation with three remarks: 1) There are many teams and individuals in SUSE contributing to the openSUSE project beside the openSUSE Team itself. Let me put it this way (even if it's not 100% precise): the openSUSE Team is called this way because it works "full-time" for openSUSE, while many other teams in the company works "part-time" for the project and part-time for other stuff. SUSE's involvement in openSUSE goes far beyond the openSUSE Team. 2) The size and power of the openSUSE Team will not decrease. Same amount of resources contributing full-time to the project. But it has been decided that those resources will be more useful for the project if they concentrate the following months in improving the development process and the tools. Long term goals that can only be achieved by a dedicated team. 3) As a consequence of (2), the openSUSE Team will not be able to take care of the release process to release a new openSUSE version in July '14 (short term). I hope I have helped to clarify the picture, which is FAR from Attachmate abandoning openSUSE. Best. -- Ancor González Sosa openSUSE Team at SUSE Linux GmbH -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Bernhard Voelker

07:59

On 01/31/2014 08:28 AM, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa wrote:

...

I will try to clarify the situation with three remarks:

1) There are many teams and individuals in SUSE contributing to the openSUSE project beside the openSUSE Team itself. Let me put it this way (even if it's not 100% precise): the openSUSE Team is called this way because it works "full-time" for openSUSE, while many other teams in the company works "part-time" for the project and part-time for other stuff. SUSE's involvement in openSUSE goes far beyond the openSUSE Team.

2) The size and power of the openSUSE Team will not decrease. Same amount of resources contributing full-time to the project. But it has been decided that those resources will be more useful for the project if they concentrate the following months in improving the development process and the tools. Long term goals that can only be achieved by a dedicated team.

3) As a consequence of (2), the openSUSE Team will not be able to take care of the release process to release a new openSUSE version in July '14 (short term).

I hope I have helped to clarify the picture, which is FAR from Attachmate abandoning openSUSE.

Well, this sounds quite legitimate. It's just the sudden uncertainty which seems to surprise us all. I don't believe that all of openSUSE@SUSE stop working on the release process *right now* (a), eh? I mean, some folks have to take over piece per piece which will take some time (b). Can someone confirm strategy (b), please? Thanks & have a nice day, Berny -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Tomáš Chvátal

09:44

Dne Pá 31. ledna 2014 08:59:51, Bernhard Voelker napsal(a):

...

Well, this sounds quite legitimate. It's just the sudden uncertainty which seems to surprise us all.

I don't believe that all of openSUSE@SUSE stop working on the release process *right now* (a), eh? I mean, some folks have to take over piece per piece which will take some time (b). Can someone confirm strategy (b), please?

The strategy plan was created with idea of skipping one release. But as we obviously expected there will be complaints our alternative solution is to create the release in 12 months instead of 8 where you guys do the hard lifting we usually did. We of course will be around to help anyone pick the tasks and work on the release. And we also have a wiki page with some tasks so you can try to get at least bit dirty with it. [1] FWIW our current goal is to get the Factory in shape that we can afterwards focus on the release itself. So with 13.3 things will hopefully be much cooler than ever :) Cheers Tom [1] https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Release_team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

13:09

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-01-31 08:28, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa wrote:

...

On 01/31/2014 07:36 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

...
From what has been written, Attachmate is abandoning openSUSE just like Canonical abandoned Kubuntu. As simple as that.

This is what people will think with all the confusion on this thread, yes. True or false, this is what we are afraid of. The SUSE people should be very careful of what they say.

...

I will try to clarify the situation with three remarks:

Thanks.

...

1) There are many teams and individuals in SUSE contributing to the openSUSE project beside the openSUSE Team itself. Let me put it this way (even if it's not 100% precise): the openSUSE Team is called this way because it works "full-time" for openSUSE, while many other teams in the company works "part-time" for the project and part-time for other stuff. SUSE's involvement in openSUSE goes far beyond the openSUSE Team.

2) The size and power of the openSUSE Team will not decrease. Same amount of resources contributing full-time to the project. But it has been decided that those resources will be more useful for the project if they concentrate the following months in improving the development process and the tools. Long term goals that can only be achieved by a dedicated team.

Ok.

...

3) As a consequence of (2), the openSUSE Team will not be able to take care of the release process to release a new openSUSE version in July '14 (short term).

Sounds reasonable.

...

I hope I have helped to clarify the picture, which is FAR from Attachmate abandoning openSUSE.

Thanks. If this is really what is happening, it is reassuring. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlLroIkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UQAACeKyUqp9mRny95BfFOhpeJ63W/ jv8AoITJwSpWesCVlqwHEaeaCKx6Wn8j =L9r6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

23:28

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-01-31 14:09, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2014-01-31 08:28, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa wrote:

...
On 01/31/2014 07:36 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...
...
From what has been written, Attachmate is abandoning openSUSE just like Canonical abandoned Kubuntu. As simple as that.

This is what people will think with all the confusion on this thread, yes. True or false, this is what we are afraid of. The SUSE people should be very careful of what they say.

Confusion is spreading.

...

http://www.linux.com/news/software/applications/759992-changes-at-opensuse

- --

...

Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlLsMZ0ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XavACfRpILuZIXpISxmIiz2sv/h6yI d1YAnA4qYmoadhC2dVvYfJVNu+HsytBA =osav -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer

1 Feb 1 Feb

05:47

"Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2014-01-31 14:09, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On 2014-01-31 08:28, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa wrote:

...
On 01/31/2014 07:36 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...
...
From what has been written, Attachmate is abandoning openSUSE just like Canonical abandoned Kubuntu. As simple as that.

This is what people will think with all the confusion on this thread, yes. True or false, this is what we are afraid of. The SUSE people should be very careful of what they say.

Confusion is spreading.

...
http://www.linux.com/news/software/applications/759992-changes-at-opensuse

Hey, they quoted me! http://lwn.net/Articles/583632/rss Greg -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

31 Jan 31 Jan

07:23

On 2014-01-31 06:01 (GMT+0100) Vincent Untz composed:

...

Bernhard Voelker composed:

...

...
Felix Miata wrote:

...

...
...
On 2014-01-30 12:54 (GMT-0500) Robert Schweikert composed:

...

...
...
...
Releases going forward, or, how do we release without full time paid worker bees?

...

...
...
If there was announcement about end of paid workers, I missed it. What's the scoop? URL?

...

...
yes, please - without more information about how and when SUSE will will decrease power in the openSUSE world, it's hard to give any answer to the other questions.

...

There is no decrease in SUSE's involvement in openSUSE! As mentioned in Robert's mail, it's simply that the openSUSE team at SUSE is choosing to focus on other openSUSE topics that release engineering, in order to improve the quality of openSUSE. That includes openQA, workflow in OBS, etc.

This seems to translate as people will continue to be paid to improve openSUSE infrastructure or components, just not to see to it that their effort ever makes it into a release good enough to recommend that wasn't delayed weeks, or months, or more, beyond its release target date. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Daniele

30 Jan 30 Jan

18:34

In data giovedì 30 gennaio 2014 12:54:19, Robert Schweikert ha scritto:
> Hi,
> 
> Releases going forward, or, how do we release without full time paid
> worker bees?
> 
> With all the discussion toward the end of last year I suppose that
> today's e-mail "Timeline and roadmap V2" [1] finally shed light on the
> inevitable conclusion, the openSUSE team (@SUSE) will spend more time
> on other stuff and less time, if any, on turning the release crank.
> 
> This is the team's prerogative just like everyone is free to work on
> the project, or not, in areas of interest to them. We can argue
> whether the way this is coming about is giving the project the best
> chance to succeed or whether the transition is being put worth in a
> nice and friendly way, but I think we should not go down that path.
> 
> Thanks! to the openSUSE Team for the hard work they have put forth in
> the past to turning the release crank, it is much appreciated.
> 
> I think the time has come to move forward and deal with the new
> situation.
> 
> As of right now we still have a release cycle of 8 month. That would
> put us into May for openSUSE 13.2.
> 
> This brings about two questions:
> 
> - Given the current situation can we meet a May release date?
> - Do we skip the May release and move to a yearly cycle and release
> 13.2 in November of 2014?
> 
> During last year's discussions there were a number of people favoring
> a yearly release cycle. We have to make a decision,
> 
> - stick to 8 month or move to 12 month?
I like the idea of 12 month release cycle but with al least one respin 
after 6 month.
For me respin means:
* release all media with all ufficial updates/bugfix.
* minor changes should be allowed.
* not so minor changes could be allowed for leaf packages

Doing this, installation bugs can be fixed and you don't have to install 
dozens of updates after/during installation from network, you keep more 
interest in the distro.

Bye.
-- 
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Angelos Tzotsos

19:25

On 01/30/2014 08:34 PM, Daniele wrote:
> In data giovedì 30 gennaio 2014 12:54:19, Robert Schweikert ha scritto:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Releases going forward, or, how do we release without full time paid
>> worker bees?
>>
>> With all the discussion toward the end of last year I suppose that
>> today's e-mail "Timeline and roadmap V2" [1] finally shed light on the
>> inevitable conclusion, the openSUSE team (@SUSE) will spend more time
>> on other stuff and less time, if any, on turning the release crank.
>>
>> This is the team's prerogative just like everyone is free to work on
>> the project, or not, in areas of interest to them. We can argue
>> whether the way this is coming about is giving the project the best
>> chance to succeed or whether the transition is being put worth in a
>> nice and friendly way, but I think we should not go down that path.
>>
>> Thanks! to the openSUSE Team for the hard work they have put forth in
>> the past to turning the release crank, it is much appreciated.
>>
>> I think the time has come to move forward and deal with the new
>> situation.
>>
>> As of right now we still have a release cycle of 8 month. That would
>> put us into May for openSUSE 13.2.
>>
>> This brings about two questions:
>>
>> - Given the current situation can we meet a May release date?
>> - Do we skip the May release and move to a yearly cycle and release
>> 13.2 in November of 2014?
>>
>> During last year's discussions there were a number of people favoring
>> a yearly release cycle. We have to make a decision,
>>
>> - stick to 8 month or move to 12 month?
> I like the idea of 12 month release cycle but with al least one respin
> after 6 month.
> For me respin means:
> * release all media with all ufficial updates/bugfix.
> * minor changes should be allowed.
> * not so minor changes could be allowed for leaf packages
>
> Doing this, installation bugs can be fixed and you don't have to install
> dozens of updates after/during installation from network, you keep more
> interest in the distro.
>
> Bye.
This is an excellent idea IMHO, plus we can give more attention to 
Tumbleweed between releases.

Best,
Angelos

-- 
Angelos Tzotsos
Remote Sensing Laboratory
National Technical University of Athens
http://users.ntua.gr/tzotsos

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Carlos E. R.

21:29

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-01-30 20:25, Angelos Tzotsos wrote:

...

On 01/30/2014 08:34 PM, Daniele wrote:

...

...
I like the idea of 12 month release cycle but with al least one respin after 6 month. For me respin means: * release all media with all ufficial updates/bugfix. * minor changes should be allowed. * not so minor changes could be allowed for leaf packages

Doing this, installation bugs can be fixed and you don't have to install dozens of updates after/during installation from network, you keep more interest in the distro.

...

This is an excellent idea IMHO, plus we can give more attention to Tumbleweed between releases.

I would like that; however, it needs dedicating time to actually doing it, and it appears that man-hours are too scarce. It would be almost be as having a 6 month release cycle. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlLqxEkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WZpQCfQSz/7FzUbtEQ1njo1xcNyX9Q roUAn2+Ze7U2gccJ7lXY0zJesPOw3nto =+1vL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Yamaban

22:17

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Releases going forward

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 22:29, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2014-01-30 20:25, Angelos Tzotsos wrote:

...
On 01/30/2014 08:34 PM, Daniele wrote:

...
I like the idea of 12 month release cycle but with al least one respin after 6 month. For me respin means: * release all media with all ufficial updates/bugfix. * minor changes should be allowed. * not so minor changes could be allowed for leaf packages

Doing this, installation bugs can be fixed and you don't have to install dozens of updates after/during installation from network, you keep more interest in the distro.

This is an excellent idea IMHO, plus we can give more attention to Tumbleweed between releases.

I would like that; however, it needs dedicating time to actually doing it, and it appears that man-hours are too scarce.

It would be almost be as having a 6 month release cycle.

No, that is a misunderstanding. A release cycle has the whole branding-everthing, release-number-changeing-everywhere, in short a whole lota stuff that for such a Service-Pack (aka SP1, SP2,...) is NOT needed nor wanted. Just these things: - re-intregrating of of all the stuff from the update-repo back into the release repo. (copy rpms, recreate indexes, sync mirrors, a week later clean update-repo) - If you want to be kind, use the *:updated-apps repos, integrate them too. - recreate the media (*.iso) - do a full QA-run to ensure quality (same as Factory-Milestone) - announce as 'release-refresh' or 'service-pack-release' Done. Best positive side-effect: smaller update-repo means faster 'zypper patch' due to smaller repo-data to transfer and resolv. - Yamaban. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

23:03

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Releases going forward

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-01-30 23:17, Yamaban wrote:

...

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 22:29, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Just these things: ... Done.

Oh, I agree that I would like it, but I don't know if it is feasible. Perhaps those isos could be posted as an alternative offer, while the original ones would still be available. Those would be the official ones.

...

Best positive side-effect: smaller update-repo means faster 'zypper patch' due to smaller repo-data to transfer and resolv.

No, only for those installing fresh at that time. The update repos would have to remain complete, for people that installed at the start of the release period, so that we would not have to change our systems mid-term. Ie, all repos unchanged. Only alternative isos offered on alternative link. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlLq2i4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WSjQCff92q8VvyZLLFIslBwNArwGwn bOQAnR4cbJE3oPI2MXrUolerOrZwwEmB =02x7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Yamaban

23:19

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Re: Releases going forward

On Fri, 31 Jan 2014 00:03, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2014-01-30 23:17, Yamaban wrote:

...
On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 22:29, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
Just these things: ... Done.

Oh, I agree that I would like it, but I don't know if it is feasible.

Perhaps those isos could be posted as an alternative offer, while the original ones would still be available. Those would be the official ones.

...
Best positive side-effect: smaller update-repo means faster 'zypper patch' due to smaller repo-data to transfer and resolv.

No, only for those installing fresh at that time. The update repos would have to remain complete, for people that installed at the start of the release period, so that we would not have to change our systems mid-term.

Ie, all repos unchanged. Only alternative isos offered on alternative link.

Eh? that would create a whole new problem: additional repos. E.g. if this repo: http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/13.1/repo/oss/ keeps it original GM content you would need a additional http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/13.1-SP1/repo/oss/ Here I call bullshit. No a rebase means a full rebase. cpoying the rpms from the update repo http://download.opensuse.org/update/13.1/ into the 'main' repo http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/13.1/repo/oss/ then adding in other 'updates / upgrades' from *:updates-apps, and similar, now recreating the indexes, 'ARCHIVES.gz', repo-data, and finaly the isos. Propagate to the mirrors After a min. 2days, better a week, the contens of the update repo can be purged as far they are integrated into the main repo No need to change anything in your local zypper config. The first 'zypper refresh' calls in the new repo-data to the main-repo and the now much smaller repo-data for the update-repo. Thus the consiteny is secured over this service-release. Just fresh isos are not all, think about net-installs, they use the main-repo during install heavyly. Please do not shoot your own foot. - Yamaban. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

23:42

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Re: Releases going forward

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-01-31 00:19, Yamaban wrote:

...

No a rebase means a full rebase.

... Mmm... Then I'd vote no. Too complex. Too similar to a fresh release, but with no beta period. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlLq41YACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XDYgCfVRot7VXz/zcdcmZU9DnAQ2Yh TYEAoIgtIQx1i62l8DodPNrfSRB+27St =hpkE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Michal Hrusecky

31 Jan 31 Jan

06:50

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Re: Releases going forward

Yamaban - 0:19 31.01.14 wrote:

...

... cpoying the rpms from the update repo http://download.opensuse.org/update/13.1/ into the 'main' repo http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/13.1/repo/oss/

then adding in other 'updates / upgrades' from *:updates-apps, and similar,

Will greatly upset people with turned off refresh and can cause troubles for people installing from original media. -- Michal HRUSECKY SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. openSUSE Team Lihovarska 1060/12 PGP 0xFED656F6 19000 Praha 9 mhrusecky[at]suse.cz Czech Republic http://michal.hrusecky.net http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Claudio Freire

30 Jan 30 Jan

23:04

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Releases going forward

On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 7:17 PM, Yamaban wrote:

...

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 22:29, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On 2014-01-30 20:25, Angelos Tzotsos wrote:

...
On 01/30/2014 08:34 PM, Daniele wrote:

...
I like the idea of 12 month release cycle but with al least one respin after 6 month. For me respin means: * release all media with all ufficial updates/bugfix. * minor changes should be allowed. * not so minor changes could be allowed for leaf packages

Doing this, installation bugs can be fixed and you don't have to install dozens of updates after/during installation from network, you keep more interest in the distro.

This is an excellent idea IMHO, plus we can give more attention to Tumbleweed between releases.

I would like that; however, it needs dedicating time to actually doing it, and it appears that man-hours are too scarce.

It would be almost be as having a 6 month release cycle.

No, that is a misunderstanding.

A release cycle has the whole branding-everthing, release-number-changeing-everywhere, in short a whole lota stuff that for such a Service-Pack (aka SP1, SP2,...) is NOT needed nor wanted.

Just these things:

- re-intregrating of of all the stuff from the update-repo back into the release repo. (copy rpms, recreate indexes, sync mirrors, a week later clean update-repo)

- If you want to be kind, use the *:updated-apps repos, integrate them too.

- recreate the media (*.iso)

- do a full QA-run to ensure quality (same as Factory-Milestone)

- announce as 'release-refresh' or 'service-pack-release'

Done.

Well, you can't do that. You have to have a separate 13.2-sp1 repo and update repo, or users of 13.2 (no sp) would be in trouble. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Simon

1 Feb 1 Feb

03:05

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2014-01-30 20:25, Angelos Tzotsos wrote:

...
On 01/30/2014 08:34 PM, Daniele wrote:

...
...
I like the idea of 12 month release cycle but with al least one respin after 6 month. For me respin means: * release all media with all ufficial updates/bugfix. * minor changes should be allowed. * not so minor changes could be allowed for leaf packages

Doing this, installation bugs can be fixed and you don't have to install dozens of updates after/during installation from network, you keep more interest in the distro. This is an excellent idea IMHO, plus we can give more attention to Tumbleweed between releases. I would like that; however, it needs dedicating time to actually doing it, and it appears that man-hours are too scarce.

It would be almost be as having a 6 month release cycle. It depends on how you do it. I would be in favor of just rebuilding the DVD with the security / other updates that had already been pushed into

On 01/31/2014 07:59 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote: the release repository, this should take very little extra work and require no extra QA because in theory it would already be done. It could possibly even be done on a 4 month cycle. I think i suggested something like calling them service packs rather then new releases. Cheers Simon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Michael Schroeder

31 Jan 31 Jan

09:52

On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 07:34:33PM +0100, Daniele wrote:

...

I like the idea of 12 month release cycle but with al least one respin after 6 month. For me respin means: * release all media with all ufficial updates/bugfix. * minor changes should be allowed. * not so minor changes could be allowed for leaf packages

I don't think we can manage even more codestreams in the maintenance update process, so I'm fine with doing a respin with the official bugfixes, but I'm against doing any other changes. Cheers, Michael. -- Michael Schroeder mls@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF Jeff Hawn, HRB 16746 AG Nuernberg main(_){while(_=~getchar())putchar(~_-1/(~(_|32)/13*2-11)*13);} -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Michal Hrusecky

30 Jan 30 Jan

18:36

Robert Schweikert - 12:54 30.01.14 wrote:

...

This brings about two questions:

- Given the current situation can we meet a May release date? - Do we skip the May release and move to a yearly cycle and release 13.2 in November of 2014?

May is quite soon, would mean start freezing around now IIRC and conference is in the middle of that and people will need to learn how to keep eye on Factory and help. I think that if we want community to take over, giving them quite short deadline at the beginning is not a good idea. Also oSC can be used to get better organised and discuss what is needed to be done and how.

...

During last year's discussions there were a number of people favoring a yearly release cycle. We have to make a decision,

- stick to 8 month or move to 12 month?

Good question to ask at this point, no real preferences. But regarding the former paragraph I would go for 12.

...

Voice your opinion but stick to the point and please be concise. For simplicity lets just assume that there will be no full time paid help to turn the release crank and that the work is all on those that are not part of the openSUSE Team.

Wouldn't dismiss that possibility altogether, but there is also something else. We plan to work on improving tools around Factory and Factory itself. So with every finished project, maintaining Factory should be easier and creating release out of it as well. That is the whole point of our projects. We haven't decided to go to do some random hacking :-)

...

... I'll define "Release Manager" as:

The person or group that runs after people, keeps an eye on the schedule and tries to herd the cats to get the stuff fixed that is broken.

There is also checking in the Factory in correct order, keeping eye on OBS load, making sure DVDs work, maintaining patterns, breaking build cycle and such a stuff that is not responsibility of individual package maintainer or which is hard to point to one package. But just a side note, don't know all the details...

...

So where do we go from here? Do we bootstrap an effort to get a release out the door without openSUSE @SUSE or do we drift along in the uncertainty of "maybe we know something in August"?

Well, the plan in [1] was bootstrap the effort. It's *not* about wait for the August and see what openSUSE Team will do then. It's about start taking over and get more involved, choose safer target (November) and hopefully our efforts will help the release indirectly and maybe we will help even directly once we are done. btw. This is me wearing my contributor hat. -- Michal HRUSECKY SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. openSUSE Team Lihovarska 1060/12 PGP 0xFED656F6 19000 Praha 9 mhrusecky[at]suse.cz Czech Republic http://michal.hrusecky.net http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander

18:40

Torsdag den 30. januar 2014 12:54:19 skrev Robert Schweikert:

...

- Given the current situation can we meet a May release date? - Do we skip the May release and move to a yearly cycle and release 13.2 in November of 2014?

The 8 month cycle was November -> July -> March -> November -> July -> March and so forth. So keeping the existing schedule would mean a release of 13.2 in July 2014.

...

During last year's discussions there were a number of people favoring a yearly release cycle. We have to make a decision,

- stick to 8 month or move to 12 month?

I say keep the 8 months. I think 12 months will be off-putting for users and contributors alike. For contributors it means it's too damn long before your work gets into the hands of users, and for users 12 months means the distro gets quite outdated, before a new release is available. Of course my only contributions to factory are translations and some bugreports, so... Also, users and contributors are finally starting to learn and understand the cycle after a few years, so freeze dates and release dates don't take them by surprise as much anymore. Changing it would put us back to square one. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Lars Marowsky-Bree

31 Jan 31 Jan

19:14

On 2014-01-30T12:54:19, Robert Schweikert wrote:

...

- Given the current situation can we meet a May release date? - Do we skip the May release and move to a yearly cycle and release 13.2 in November of 2014?

During last year's discussions there were a number of people favoring a yearly release cycle. We have to make a decision,

- stick to 8 month or move to 12 month?

I expect this is going to be an unpopular vote - but I'm willing to be pleasantly surprised. ;-) If I had to choose, I'd say "neither". Take this chance to adjust to a continuous delivery release stream, instead of traditional "major releases". Release what is ready, as soon as it is ready. (Meaning: passes acceptance criteria.) Early on, there are bound to be blunders (a.k.a. "shouldn't have released that"). But the pay-off to users would be to get a stable distribution that is leading edge - best of both worlds. And for developers: a stable distribution that rewards them with fast positive feedback from users. And it'd be an excellent development platform for the likes of DevOps and OpenStack.

...

Under any circumstances I'd say our first go around will be a bit rough around the edges and that's OK, we have to learn.

Exactly. Can we un-learn the "release schedule" lesson please? ;-) Small stuff - like mutt updates, to pull a random example out of thin air - could always be released pretty much immediately. Larger bits (GNOME4, anyone?) would require some more coordination. That'd be a distribution I'd like to use and contribute too. It'd give us a profile Ubuntu or Fedora don't have.

...

Maintainers/Packagers be heard, speak up, but lets not drift into rat holes, the situation is actually quite simple.

Sorry. ;-) Regards, Lars -- Architect Storage/HA SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

19:32

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-01-31 20:14, Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:

...

On 2014-01-30T12:54:19, Robert Schweikert <> wrote:

...

...
During last year's discussions there were a number of people favoring a yearly release cycle. We have to make a decision,

- stick to 8 month or move to 12 month?

This should be a technical decision. If the people doing it can do it comfortably on an 8 month cycle, do it. If more time is needed, take it, as needed.

...

If I had to choose, I'd say "neither".

Take this chance to adjust to a continuous delivery release stream, instead of traditional "major releases".

Release what is ready, as soon as it is ready. (Meaning: passes acceptance criteria.)

I have a preference to install something well integrated that doesn't change much in about two years and that it keeps working. I do not want surprises because something is updated in the period to a new shiny version, then to find that it breaks something else that was working till that moment. I do recognize that others want to be closer to the edge. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlLr+mQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Vj8wCfT/gKuHXLBURnE+8/lzEZnpgW dmgAn1ddK32lCwMx2xYUI5KLi4f/+yip =kvzM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Lars Marowsky-Bree

20:01

On 2014-01-31T20:32:52, "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

I have a preference to install something well integrated that doesn't change much in about two years and that it keeps working. I do not want surprises because something is updated in the period to a new shiny version, then to find that it breaks something else that was working till that moment.

That is not what continuous delivery means. But yes, I rest my case. Go have fun. I'll go find something else ;-) Regards, Lars -- Architect Storage/HA SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

19:34

Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:

...

On 2014-01-30T12:54:19, Robert Schweikert wrote:

...
- Given the current situation can we meet a May release date? - Do we skip the May release and move to a yearly cycle and release 13.2 in November of 2014?

During last year's discussions there were a number of people favoring a yearly release cycle. We have to make a decision,

- stick to 8 month or move to 12 month?

I expect this is going to be an unpopular vote - but I'm willing to be pleasantly surprised. ;-)

If I had to choose, I'd say "neither".

Take this chance to adjust to a continuous delivery release stream, instead of traditional "major releases".

No thank you. It simply doesn't work for anyone using openSUSE professionally or trying to support it.

...

Release what is ready, as soon as it is ready. (Meaning: passes acceptance criteria.)

Main challenges - a) define "acceptance criteria", and b) run the checks on those all the time.

...

Early on, there are bound to be blunders (a.k.a. "shouldn't have released that"). But the pay-off to users would be to get a stable distribution that is leading edge - best of both worlds.

Plain users don't want leading edge. They want stability that enables them to get their jobs done. Admins don't want to run the upgrade treadmill all the time either. For those who want bleeding edge, surely there are better suited distros out there? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.2°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Claudio Freire

19:43

On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

...
Early on, there are bound to be blunders (a.k.a. "shouldn't have released that"). But the pay-off to users would be to get a stable distribution that is leading edge - best of both worlds.

Plain users don't want leading edge. They want stability that enables them to get their jobs done. Admins don't want to run the upgrade treadmill all the time either.

For those who want bleeding edge, surely there are better suited distros out there?

There's tumbleweed in fact. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

dale ritchey

21:14

On 01/31/2014 02:43 PM, Claudio Freire wrote:

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On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...
...
Early on, there are bound to be blunders (a.k.a. "shouldn't have released that"). But the pay-off to users would be to get a stable distribution that is leading edge - best of both worlds. Plain users don't want leading edge. They want stability that enables them to get their jobs done. Admins don't want to run the upgrade treadmill all the time either.

For those who want bleeding edge, surely there are better suited distros out there?

There's tumbleweed in fact. There is also factory the net install iso's work even if the live iso's are broken. even my own creation doesn't work (can't find run init program) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Lars Marowsky-Bree

21:18

On 2014-01-31T17:43:32, Claudio Freire wrote:

...

There's tumbleweed in fact.

Tumbleweed is a great precedent and shows that this can be made to work. But I envision this with more support, and never having the need to 'rebase' to the next 'major release'. (Which is a disruptive, scary change.) But yes, I take the point that these ideas aren't a good fit for openSUSE. Regards, Lars -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

21:30

Am 31.01.2014 22:18, schrieb Lars Marowsky-Bree:

...

On 2014-01-31T17:43:32, Claudio Freire wrote:

...
There's tumbleweed in fact.

Tumbleweed is a great precedent and shows that this can be made to work. But I envision this with more support, and never having the need to 'rebase' to the next 'major release'. (Which is a disruptive, scary change.)

But yes, I take the point that these ideas aren't a good fit for openSUSE.

Why not use openSUSE Factory? Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Lars Marowsky-Bree

21:48

On 2014-01-31T22:30:54, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Why not use openSUSE Factory?

Because Factory introduces too much breakage; it's an integration pool followed by long-ish periods of stabilization, not a rolling distribution aimed at end-users. Regards, Lars -- Architect Storage/HA SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer

21:56

On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:

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On 2014-01-31T22:30:54, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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Why not use openSUSE Factory?

Because Factory introduces too much breakage; it's an integration pool followed by long-ish periods of stabilization, not a rolling distribution aimed at end-users.

The goal of the opensuse team @ suse is to change that as I understand it. The staging projects / rings will become the integration / stabilization pools. Factory will become a rolling distribution aimed at users that want to live close to the bleeding edge, but not too close. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Stefan Seyfried

29 Mar 29 Mar

15:31

(Finally reading up on those old threads) Am 31.01.2014 22:48, schrieb Lars Marowsky-Bree:

...

On 2014-01-31T22:30:54, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...
Why not use openSUSE Factory?

Because Factory introduces too much breakage;

That's not true. Factory works well for advanced users (the ones that know when to skip the update that wants to deinstall everything and replace it with i586 versions)

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it's an integration pool followed by long-ish periods of stabilization,

Not anymore. It's an continuously stabilized integration pool.

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not a rolling distribution

Huh? It is exactly how I understand the idea of a "rolling distribution".

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aimed at end-users.

Depends on which end you see yourself. It's of course not for the Low-end users :-P And it's not for whiners. My experience: it is less work to keep a constantly updated Factory system running fine without major problems, than to update from $RELEASE-1 to $RELEASE 1.5 times per year and then fixing all the breakage that comes in one big hunk. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

15:54

* Stefan Seyfried [03-29-14 11:34]: [...]

...

My experience: it is less work to keep a constantly updated Factory system running fine without major problems, than to update from $RELEASE-1 to $RELEASE 1.5 times per year and then fixing all the breakage that comes in one big hunk.

Where Tumbleweed would fit, just below factory but still w/o the $RELEASE *jumps*, and better fitting for one wanting a more ?stable? environment. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org