On Mon, 17 Sep 2007, Martin Schlander wrote:

Den Saturday 15 September 2007 12:32:48 skrev Benji Weber:

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Francis pointed out to me that classpath-webplugin is installed by default on 10.3. This is

a) rather pointless as I don't think it actually supports any applets ( I tried a dozen or so sites with java applets ) b) somewhat dangerous as I don't think I'd trust the security in the classpath webplugin. c) prevents the real sun java plugin from working when installed, until the user removes the classpath webplugin as this gets priority in both firefox and konqueror.

Can I suggest

- Making the sun plugin conflict with the classpath webplugin. - Preferably don't install the classpath version at all, if you're worried about completely free java go for java 7 it would be more reliable than classpath.

I had this problem too. This was on x86_64 however, but I installed 32-bit firefox and sun java-plugin and had problems getting it to work until I figured out that I must manually remove classpath-webplugin. I thought classpath-webplugin was only installed by default on 64-bit installations, but apparently it's also done on 32-bit - it doesn't do much good anywhere - but on 32-bit it's extra problematic.

I support Benji's proposed resolutions.

IMO it is a mistake to release a 64 bit firefox without a really (!) working java. Releasing a 32 bit firefox was much better in the older distros. -- Andreas Vetter Fakultaet fuer Physik und Astronomie Universitaet Wuerzburg --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 18 Sep 2007, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

Andreas Vetter wrote:

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On Mon, 17 Sep 2007, Martin Schlander wrote:

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Can I suggest

- Making the sun plugin conflict with the classpath webplugin. - Preferably don't install the classpath version at all, if you're worried about completely free java go for java 7 it would be more reliable than classpath. I had this problem too. This was on x86_64 however, but I installed 32-bit firefox and sun java-plugin and had problems getting it to work until I figured out that I must manually remove classpath-webplugin. I thought classpath-webplugin was only installed by default on 64-bit installations, but apparently it's also done on 32-bit - it doesn't do much good anywhere - but on 32-bit it's extra problematic.

I support Benji's proposed resolutions.

IMO it is a mistake to release a 64 bit firefox without a really (!) working java. Releasing a 32 bit firefox was much better in the older distros.

Anyone opened a bug to let the plugins conflict? IMHO that's mandatory. It makes absolutely no sense to have more than one plugin installed for one type since at least all Mozilla stuff behaves non-deterministic in choosing one :-( And I agree that not having a working Java plugin is almost as bad as not having a working Flash player (which should basically work maybe only with manual interaction with nspluginwrapper though).

So replacing Firefox with the 32bit version, removing classpath-webplugin and installing Sun's 32bit Java with plugin will be an FAQ :-(

I reopened [Bug 264228] nspluginwrapper + java plugin problems [Bug 288750] Home bank issues with java+firefox on x86_64 to get a final decision. I know it's really late, but a 64bit system without a working firefox/java combination is a blocker in my eyes. -- Mit freundlichen Gruessen, Andreas Vetter Fakultaet fuer Physik und Astronomie Tel: +49 (0)931 888-5890 Universitaet Wuerzburg Fax: +49 (0)931 888-5508 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Den Tuesday 18 September 2007 10:01:20 skrev Stephan Kulow:

Easing the update path in adding conflicts is very fine with me though. This should be reported though.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=325912 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Stephan Kulow wrote:

Easing the update path in adding conflicts is very fine with me though. This should be reported though.

Why not to use alternatives instead? One could chose which plug-in one wants using "update-alternatives". Cheers Fridrich -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG8HUNu9a1imXPdA8RApmnAJ4jMu/o0EfvFpgXdNtj+OO02frCvQCfSryy sHFAgqfod1q/jr9IoCc1jUg= =BO1D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Den Tuesday 18 September 2007 16:27:22 skrev Gregg Nicholas:

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I reopened [Bug 264228] nspluginwrapper + java plugin problems [Bug 288750] Home bank issues with java+firefox on x86_64 to get a final decision. I know it's really late, but a 64bit system without a working firefox/java combination is a blocker in my eyes.

I have to agree with Andreas Vetter. Firefox/java/flash should simply work, without manual intervention, on any gui installation (even x86_64). In my opinion, the decision to go with only OSS solutions - even though they don't work right - is likely to push end-users toward other distributions.

As it can be seen from my bugreports that avetter reopened I share the opinion that 32-bit Firefox should be shipped. Especially since software.opensuse.org has no "warning" about downloading the x86_64 version. However I don't think the decision has anything to do with ideology. When people install x86_64 they don't want 32-bit Firefox - they want to run full 64-bit so they can enjoy all the imaginatory performance improvements. Now we even have 64-bit OOo.. Flash works with nspluginwrapper with 64-bit Firefox - I don't know how many people actually come across java webapplets - personally I only need it for homebanking - but that of course is enough to make me install 32-bit Firefox - which I tested and "downgrading" ran without incident, except for me having to remove classpath-webplugin - and that issue will be fixed. I think that x86_64 users should expect some bumps here and there - but I also think that this should be noted on s.o.o .. we had that discussion before, but since these events show it's relevance I'm bringing it up again. It should somehow be communicated that x86 is the safest/simplest choice - also with x86_64 hardware. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 18 Sep 2007, Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

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On Tue, Sep 18, 2007 at 6:32 PM, Martin Schlander wrote: Den Tuesday 18 September 2007 16:27:22 skrev Gregg Nicholas: I reopened [Bug 264228] nspluginwrapper + java plugin problems [Bug 288750] Home bank issues with java+firefox on x86_64 to get a final decision. I know it's really late, but a 64bit system without a working firefox/java combination is a blocker in my eyes.

I have to agree with Andreas Vetter. Firefox/java/flash should simply work, without manual intervention, on any gui installation (even x86_64). In my opinion, the decision to go with only OSS solutions - even though they don't work right - is likely to push end-users toward other distributions.

As it can be seen from my bugreports that avetter reopened I share the opinion that 32-bit Firefox should be shipped. Especially since software.opensuse.org

has no "warning" about downloading the x86_64 version.

However I don't think the decision has anything to do with ideology. When people install x86_64 they don't want 32-bit Firefox - they want to run full 64-bit so they can enjoy all the imaginatory performance improvements. Now we

even have 64-bit OOo..

Flash works with nspluginwrapper with 64-bit Firefox - I don't know how many people actually come across java webapplets - personally I only need it for homebanking - but that of course is enough to make me install 32-bit Firefox - which I tested and "downgrading" ran without incident, except for me having to remove classpath-webplugin - and that issue will be fixed.

I agree completely: flash works flawless with the nspluginwrapper and Java is one of the things I never need on a website (even my bank webinterfaces don't use it anymore).

I agree, it's not very much used on newer webpages, but a lot of older stuff is in Java. Especially a lot of physics related material for our students is Java. Additionally a lot of web interfaces for hardware use Java (tape libraries, storage systems, uninteruptible power supplies, ...).

Also think about other impacts having a 32bit firefox imposes: I'm maintaining packages of a not to be called by name Video Client, and we offer a plugin for Firefox. Of course, when installing 64bit Video Client, the 64bit plugin get's installed. Having a 32bit version of Firefox forces the user also to 'downgrade' a lot of other applications.

Yes that's true, that's the reason I didn't use this plugin in older suse distros.

I think such cases have to be clear for everybody: if you need Java and you really can't live without it, go for 32bit. Yast/whatever tool and the Documentation should offer an easy way for this. And then it should clearly be noted that many other things might get broken. For those users, a pure 32bit system might be better suitable then (or maybe a VM)

-- Andreas Vetter Fakultaet fuer Physik und Astronomie Universitaet Wuerzburg --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Den Wednesday 19 September 2007 12:53:59 skrev Benji Weber:

Java works fine with 64bit konqueror btw. Konqueror doesn't require the sun plugin.

People keep saying that. Could you please tell me this: 1) which path do you have set in konq for Java 2) which Sun Java version+arch do you have installed 3) a link to one or more websites with applets working --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Den Wednesday 19 September 2007 13:37:23 skrev Benji Weber:

On 19/09/2007, Martin Schlander wrote:

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Den Wednesday 19 September 2007 12:53:59 skrev Benji Weber:

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Java works fine with 64bit konqueror btw. Konqueror doesn't require the sun plugin.

People keep saying that. Could you please tell me this:

1) which path do you have set in konq for Java

The default is fine, or just use /usr/bin/java.

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2) which Sun Java version+arch do you have installed

java 1.6, x86_64

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3) a link to one or more websites with applets working

http://chir.ag/stuff/sand/ [warning, addictive] http://benjiweber.co.uk/konq-falling-sand.png

Wow, it really does work. With Sun Java 1.6 x86_64 I could get it to work in konq when specifying this path: /usr/lib64/jvm/java-1.6.0.u1-sun-1.6.0.u1/jre/bin/java Checked the Falling sand game linked above and also verified installation on java.com. So this would be a good solution for most. Unfortunately my homebanking issues aren't solved by this. One of my banks crashes Konq when I try to accept their certificate - and the other one claims Konq doesn't support session cookies.. :-( --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 19 Sep 2007, Benji Weber wrote:

On 19/09/2007, Andreas Vetter wrote:

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I think such cases have to be clear for everybody: if you need Java and you really can't live without it, go for 32bit. Yast/whatever tool and the Documentation should offer an easy way for this. And then it should clearly be noted that many other things might get broken. For those users, a pure 32bit system might be better suitable then (or maybe a VM)

Java works fine with 64bit konqueror btw. Konqueror doesn't require the sun plugin.

Well this does not run all applets. Some applets only produce a "applet failed" error, while others work.

The other problem with installing 32bit firefox for java is that it also requires 32bit java. Java applets may be used less frequently now but there are many java applications, and many people do java development.

-- Andreas Vetter Fakultaet fuer Physik und Astronomie Universitaet Wuerzburg --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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I have to agree with Andreas Vetter. Firefox/java/flash should simply work, without manual intervention, on any gui installation (even x86_64). In my opinion, the decision to go with only OSS solutions - even though they don't work right - is likely to push end-users toward other distributions.

Can you name a distribution that has a working java on x86_64? perhaps we can check how they solved it.

Greetings, Stephan

Sorry. openSUSE is the only 64-bit o/s that I've tested so far. I've tried a few other 32-bit distros, but I've been reluctant to spend much time with them because we use Novell OES at work. I tried installing 64-bit NLD on my work PC, but had to back off because too many things didn't work (at that time). I apologize for complaining without sufficiently testing other distros. ....Gregg --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org