* M9. [Apr 26. 2007 16:17]:

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Do you have any large (i.e. factory) repositories subscribed ?

As a matter of fact i have..

Ok, this explains it. Factory is HUGE and libzypp parses (and loads :-() all of it. We're working on improving this, see http://en.opensuse.org/Libzypp/Refactoring Klaus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Dear Gnome and Nautilus Team leaders, would it be all that difficult to change the default gnome installation to carry GnomeBaker with it? it's insultive to the end user not to have simple md5sum checking or even have the ability to tell it to write at best possible speed then verify. Which is completely possible under KDE with K3b which is a default package. I use KDE on My Laptop, but my office is all Novell SLED and I am trying not to have to convert Novell networking and other documentation from Gnome to KDE so I use the Gnome there, If Novell is going to support both desktop's why are they not feature to feature equal ? I'm not suggesting that you adopt an aditude of "is the Kitchen sink in Der, Eh " but when someone writes a nice tool like GnomeBaker use it! I could really vent here but I won't out of respect but............................................... -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Novell CNE 3\4\5 CLE \ NCE in training. http://en.opensuse.org/education --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 26 April 2007 19:31, you wrote:

On Thu, 2007-04-26 at 17:31 -0400, James Tremblay wrote:

...

Dear Gnome and Nautilus Team leaders, would it be all that difficult to change the default gnome installation to carry GnomeBaker with it? it's insultive to the end user not to have simple md5sum checking or even have the ability to tell it to write at best possible speed then verify. Which is completely possible under KDE with K3b which is a default package. I use KDE on My Laptop, but my office is all Novell SLED and I am trying not to have to convert Novell networking and other documentation from Gnome to KDE so I use the Gnome there, If Novell is going to support both desktop's why are they not feature to feature equal ? I'm not suggesting that you adopt an aditude of "is the Kitchen sink in Der, Eh " but when someone writes a nice tool like GnomeBaker use it! I could really vent here but I won't out of respect but...............................................

Sounds pretty reasonable, file a bug and send us the number!

We should upgrade to 0.6.1 while we're at it.

-JP now filed as bug #269051 -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Novell CNE 3\4\5 CLE \ NCE in training. http://en.opensuse.org/education

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On Thu, 2007-04-26 at 17:31 -0400, James Tremblay wrote:

Dear Gnome and Nautilus Team leaders, would it be all that difficult to change the default gnome installation to carry GnomeBaker with it? it's insultive to the end user not to have simple md5sum checking or even have the ability to tell it to write at best possible speed then verify. Which is completely possible under KDE with K3b which is a default package.

Sure, we'll take it into consideration. It is much too late for SLED10-SP1 at this point. We'll review GnomeBaker and consider it for SLED 11. Cheers. -Gary --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Apr 26, 2007 at 05:31:08PM -0400, James Tremblay wrote:

Dear Gnome and Nautilus Team leaders, would it be all that difficult to change the default gnome installation to carry GnomeBaker with it? it's insultive to the end user not to have simple md5sum checking or even have the ability to tell it to write at best possible speed then verify. Which is completely possible under KDE with K3b which is a default package.

Just install and use k3b, which will work just fine under GNOME.

I use KDE on My Laptop, but my office is all Novell SLED and I am trying not to have to convert Novell networking and other documentation from Gnome to KDE so I use the Gnome there, If Novell is going to support both desktop's why are they not feature to feature equal ? I'm not suggesting that you adopt

We strive to use the best from both desktop worlds... So why not use k3b? Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Apr 27, 2007 at 11:10:13AM +0200, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

Il giorno ven, 27/04/2007 alle 07.55 +0200, Marcus Meissner ha scritto:

...

On Thu, Apr 26, 2007 at 05:31:08PM -0400, James Tremblay wrote:

...

Dear Gnome and Nautilus Team leaders, would it be all that difficult to change the default gnome installation to carry GnomeBaker with it? it's insultive to the end user not to have simple md5sum checking or even have the ability to tell it to write at best possible speed then verify. Which is completely possible under KDE with K3b which is a default package.

Just install and use k3b, which will work just fine under GNOME.

...

I use KDE on My Laptop, but my office is all Novell SLED and I am trying not to have to convert Novell networking and other documentation from Gnome to KDE so I use the Gnome there, If Novell is going to support both desktop's why are they not feature to feature equal ? I'm not suggesting that you adopt

We strive to use the best from both desktop worlds... So why not use k3b?

Ciao, Marcus

Because using K3B means installing a part of KDE too, and some users just don't want. It's the old and never solved issue which affects SuSE since the night of times. We can't have a KDE installation without GNOME apps or a GNOME installation without KDE apps, with the usual lack of resources, especially considering that in most cases there are equivalent applications in both worlds. It's just a question of looking for them.

I admit the situation somewhat improved in 10.1/10.2, but it's quite annoying to read this kind of answers to users who are just asking for a more clean and polished desktop installation.

This is just unnecessary purism. Why do you think both cannot coexist, if just for their shared libraries? Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

I don't think they can't coexist. I think the user should choose what to install, considering both desktop environments have equivalent applications for basic desktop usage.

KDE apps in GNOME (and viceversa), even if themed, are not well integrated and give the impression of an inconsistent environment and user experience.

Moreover both DE apps have the bad habit to install a lot of other things which make the menu fuller without a real reason.

I totally agree with Alberto. Specially because kde apps doesn't fit gnome styles. Regards. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 27 April 2007 04:25, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

...

This is just unnecessary purism. Why do you think both cannot coexist, if just for their shared libraries?

Ciao, Marcus

I don't think they can't coexist. I think the user should choose what to install, considering both desktop environments have equivalent applications for basic desktop usage.

KDE apps in GNOME (and viceversa), even if themed, are not well integrated and give the impression of an inconsistent environment and user experience.

Moreover both DE apps have the bad habit to install a lot of other things which make the menu fuller without a real reason.

Regards,

Hi Alberto, I have feeling that Ubuntu/Kubuntu way would be solution that you are looking for, but taking that some applications in both desktop environments are mature while counterpart is far from that, making graphic style or size of system priority will affect functionality. Last time I compared distros it was Red Hat 9 vs. SUSE 9. The only thing Red Hat got better is graphic appearance. SUSE 9 got better hardware recognition, more programs and more programs that have no missing functionality. I got in both distros file managers, but Konqueror was by far better than Nautilus. -- Regards, Rajko. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

...

...

On 27-04-2007 at 15:30, James Tremblay wrote: d1gnome_10.x or d1kde_10.x . each running a nice little productivity

environment ( the classic 5 apps) without user intervention at installation. Again thank you for all your work in general and your concern in this

matter.

I'm not sure a d1{gnome,kde}-*.iso is what I'd like to see in openSUSE. I have openSUSE installed on more than one computer, more than one user is also working on them. And by far not all of them like gnome/kde/<putwhatever app> Having both environments so close together is a huge advantage! Dominique -- TMF is a global management and accounting outsourcing firm with 72 offices in 56 countries and over 2,000 professionals (February 2007). TMF is expanding rapidly throughout the world. Learn more about our unique network and our services and visit our website at www.tmf-group.com. The information contained in this e-mail communication is confidential and solely intended for the person to whom it is addressed. If someone other than the intended recipient should receive or come into possession of this e-mail communication, he/she will not be entitled to read, disseminate, disclose or duplicate it. If you are not the intended recipient, you are requested to notify the sender and to destroy the original e-mail communication. TMF is neither liable for the correct and complete transmission of the information contained in this e-mail communication nor for any delay in its receipt. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for the presence of computer viruses. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 27 April 2007 10:00, Rajko M. wrote:

On Friday 27 April 2007 07:50, Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

...

I'm not sure a d1{gnome,kde}-*.iso is what I'd like to see in openSUSE.

Hi Dominic,

I'm sure that I wouldn't like.

Presence of both is openSUSE advantage. That is what many describe as more polished and useful.

While I can agree with Alberto about graphic part, I don't find it primary concern.

On very basic installation either of desktops (DE) doesn't provide maximum functionality. I tried both in basic setting, and there is always something missing.

It might be good to analyze software piece by piece, that might benefit discusion to move from opinions to facts, and help both desktops to look better and be more functional.

But, who is going to start? We can't get one man to make a list of educational software that should be reviewed, which is smaller task than all of the openSUSE. How to find the one that is going to volunteer for the second?

As it is now I'm afraid that we would have problem how to name the project, not to mention how to organize collaboration.

The tool is there - openSUSE wiki, we just have to find the way to use it.

Your position on not liking two separate disk 1's understandable, however look at it from the perspective of imaging and maintaining 500 PC's (which i do) my laptops default KDE is 3.8g this is a lot of data to move with a tool like Zenworks imaging or Ghost , while on the other hand my XP image is just under 500m. It takes like 4-6 minutes to set a machine to a default config and I can do an entire school lab of 24 PC's in just a little longer. I like this because it helps make sure each room can get just what it needs. When I deliver apps as add-on images, again using Zenworks, it's much faster and easier to start with a stripped down OS and add bytes rather then run an install routine. I know my 10g hard drives are already obsolete but I'm certainly not the only battling with old hardware. In summary, if I can download a Disk1 that is a nice light productivity desktop and the associated add on media, then I can build a local install repository and have all the extra stuff in there. Now using a tool like Zenworks Snappshot I can add applications , make add-on images and customize each room and user task space with an application delivery system like Naldesk. I believe Novell is in this for the long haul and it's customers aren't the hobbiest or the soho groups normally associated with Linux. If we want openSUSE to survive we MUST think about Novell's Enterprise offerings( which it must sell to have money)and how to best integrate with them and the people that use them. Less is frequently more. -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Novell CNE 3\4\5 CLE \ NCE in training. http://en.opensuse.org/education --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 27 April 2007 12:15, Rajko M. wrote:

On Friday 27 April 2007 10:02, James Tremblay wrote:

...

On Friday 27 April 2007 10:00, Rajko M. wrote:

....

...

...

It might be good to analyze software piece by piece, that might benefit discusion to move from opinions to facts, and help both desktops to look better and be more functional.

But, who is going to start? We can't get one man to make a list of educational software that should be reviewed, which is smaller task than all of the openSUSE. How to find the one that is going to volunteer for the second?

As it is now I'm afraid that we would have problem how to name the project, not to mention how to organize collaboration.

The tool is there - openSUSE wiki, we just have to find the way to use it.

Your position on not liking two separate disk 1's understandable, however look at it from the perspective of imaging and maintaining 500 PC's (which i do) my laptops default KDE is 3.8g this is a lot of data to move with a tool like Zenworks imaging or Ghost , while on the other hand my XP image is just under 500m.

I can imagine administrator's problems, but limiting functionality would not help.

Mentioned RH 9 is 3 CD's (1.8 GB) and I wasn't happy, except with consistency of visual appearance. It was missing or partially implemented functionality that made me to abandon it.

Basic openSUSE graphic installation is about 800 MB, but it is pretty useless. Basic KDE, so far I recall is 1.2.GB, and it is useful. Both numbers are bit obsolete, but underlaying reason for the size is open source development where developers use tools that they know, which builds up number of dependencies.

I mentioned Ubuntu / Kubuntu, they have one CD images, so it is probably the time to see what they have to offer and compare to SUSE. Last time I wasn't impressed. I'm not suggesting that anyone use the first cd as a daily desktop I'm just asking that it get us to a runlevel 5 desktop that will allow further installation of applications from the other disks. YaST can still ask us if we want more during the original installation but if we do nothing we get a bare minimum, such as without OpenOffice which would be no small reduction. A SuSEr once said "SuSE isn't just a distro but an entire set of Linux tools" . I'm only asking that we rearrange the disks to give more choice as to what an when things get installed. -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Novell CNE 3\4\5 CLE \ NCE in training. http://en.opensuse.org/education

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Hi

On Friday 27 April 2007 07:50, Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

...

I'm not sure a d1{gnome,kde}-*.iso is what I'd like to see in openSUSE.

Thats your point of view - and I agree with you. But as we can see on other distributions, the "overflow" of available applications overburdens the "normal" user. I like that idea of having: - one "mini-CD" for network installation - containing just a base system. - one CD for a default KDE and one CD for a default Gnome-System. For me this seems currently to be the biggest part of work, because of all the dependencies. And I think we should review the current pattern files to see if they contain unneeded applications. - one DVD5 (or DVD9) for the "advanced users" that like the distribution "as is". If a user adds the official openSUSE repository, he can get more applications - and even patterns. ...and if someone likes to help in the buildservice, we can add patterns there, too. On Fr 27 April 2007 16:00 Rajko M. wrote:

It might be good to analyze software piece by piece, that might benefit discusion to move from opinions to facts, and help both desktops to look better and be more functional.

But, who is going to start? We can't get one man to make a list of educational software that should be reviewed, which is smaller task than all of the openSUSE.

BTW: http://software.opensuse.org/download/Education:/desktop/openSUSE_Factory/i5... => the first package containing Desktop patterns is already there. (Please don't install this package, this is just a "meta-Package".) I think we have something like a "chicken or the egg problem" here: without any examples we can't reach the normal user. Without reaching the normal user, we can't get a "cool solution"... ;-)

The tool is there - openSUSE wiki, we just have to find the way to use it.

Yes! Greetings, Lars --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

I have feeling that Ubuntu/Kubuntu way would be solution that you are looking for, but taking that some applications in both desktop environments are mature while counterpart is far from that, making graphic style or size of system priority will affect functionality.

I agree, that's the ubuntu way, and that's one of the reasons which make ubuntu so successful: it's just clean, without lacking of the basic functionalities you need. And if you want more, you just open the installer and add, without worrying about the addition of unknown repositories with exotic names, as we have to do. And these, together with the ridiculous delay in solving issues in openSUSE, are the reasons why I'm moving to ubuntu. To be honest, the lack of functionality sounds like an excuse to me. I talked about basic desktop applications, like the one provided by default, so I would like some example of fundamental functionality which would lack adding gnomebaker instead than...nothing, because nothing is installed by default in gnome at the moment to create CD/DVD's, with the exception of the integrated functionalities of Nautilus.

Last time I compared distros it was Red Hat 9 vs. SUSE 9. The only thing Red Hat got better is graphic appearance. SUSE 9 got better hardware recognition, more programs and more programs that have no missing functionality. I got in both distros file managers, but Konqueror was by far better than Nautilus.

The difference is the cleanliness. I don't like Red Hat myself, but without a doubt, its consistency is amazing. The nautilus vs. konqueror battle is just a question of personal preferences. Regards, Alberto --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Il giorno ven, 27/04/2007 alle 14.39 +0200, Marcus Meissner ha scritto:

This is just a bit of a strawman I guess.

You guess wrong, but that's OK. It's some time I'm working at that.

...

...

Last time I compared distros it was Red Hat 9 vs. SUSE 9. The only thing Red Hat got better is graphic appearance. SUSE 9 got better hardware recognition, more programs and more programs that have no missing functionality. I got in both distros file managers, but Konqueror was by far better than Nautilus.

The difference is the cleanliness. I don't like Red Hat myself, but without a doubt, its consistency is amazing.

"Cleanliness" ... Both KDE and GNOME is OpenSource software.

Now if you would discuss cleanliness in regards to having no closed source software on the distribution, I could understand it, but you do seperate KDE and GNOME for no real good reason.

I'm not an ideologist, if a closed source application is well done and works, I've no problem to use it or to accept it in the distribution. One of the advantages of SuSE is that you already find flash, acroread and some other applications already on media. Cleanliness, for me, means not seeing inconsistent choices of apps, evidently out of places windows, dialogs, applets and so on. I never said it has to have a higher priority than functionalities, but when there are alternatives there's no reason to do a mix. And for basic functionalities there are various alternatives. Regards, Alberto --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Carlos E. R. [Apr 27. 2007 01:05]:

A guess.

Aplying deltas in my system (P-IV, 1GiB) is very slow and cpu intensive (dunno about memory). Perhaps applying patches could be faster sometimes, or maybe the whole package.

Perhaps you could add a tunning control (user accesable) to be able to chose deltas, patches or whole rpm depending on the sizes of each and the network bandwidth, and the available memory?

Just an idea.

And a good one. But how should the updater decide which one to use ? Automatically based on cpu power, memory and network ? Configurable by user ? Based on size of package ? ... Klaus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 27 April 2007 11:28:07 Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Friday 2007-04-27 at 09:49 +0200, Klaus Kaempf wrote:

...

Automatically based on cpu power, memory and network ? Configurable by user ? Based on size of package ? ...

Al of them... automatically based on cpu, memory, network, and size of package, plus user configuration. A triffle.

I don't know. Perhaps some thing that, based on previous assumptions guestimates how long will it take on each road, and decide. The calculation will depend a lot on each particular machine setup, so it's doubtfull it can be acurately calculated, so perhaps best thing is to base decisions on data from previous sessions. And unless that data is feedback to you, you want be able to initialize the functions properly - but that opens another problem, because people is sensitive to to data gathering.

Or from user configuration altogether.

A user on an expensive network will probably want deltas all the time, and one on a cheap, big pipe will prefer big packagaes in full.

It's not simple to calculate...

Maybe some sort of score for the machine, a la Windows Vista? :) A measure of the system performance and profile based on a set of criteria. This could also be used elsewhere in deciding whether XGL should be enabled etc. Cheers Pete --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org