[opensuse-factory] inappropriate hard dependancies on mail?
I tried to remove all of procmail, sendmail and postfix with zypper rm. Zypper wanted to remove 42 packages, to wit: Most (all?) of KDE3 nmh xf86-input-* xf86-video-* xkeyboard-config xmh xorg-x11 xorg-x11-driver-* xorg-x11-server Can it not be (a) bug(s) that so much requires mail be installed? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-13 20:18, Felix Miata wrote:
Can it not be (a) bug(s) that so much requires mail be installed?
mail things are a requirement of any Linux systems since ever. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/Y8e0ACgkQIvFNjefEBxoffQCg1HNKlIHCxVuL97s+sRBmObUj ZWcAoKoQ6qP7xyol22PK5fugQ9CgxvIr =Xt6C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2012/06/13 22:02 (GMT+0200) Carlos E. R. composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
Can it not be (a) bug(s) that so much requires mail be installed?
mail things are a requirement of any Linux systems since ever.
Installed by default, yes. Hard dependency I find very hard to believe. With only postfix installed on any of my systems, and not running on any of them ... postfix 0:off 1:off 2:off 3:off 4:off 5:off 6:off ... I've yet to notice any complaints from the listed X packages in my OP that mail is not available, much less from anything that might _logically_ require system mail to fully function normally. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-13 23:24, Felix Miata wrote:
I've yet to notice any complaints from the listed X packages in my OP that mail is not available, much less from anything that might _logically_ require system mail to fully function normally.
Cron does need email, for example, as does at. I don't know how it complains. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/ZFAsACgkQIvFNjefEBxq46QCgznRDM+/gr3BWhxtIiv0I0XSK Bp8AmwaJOKudBRpzspkIdzQWMMSI0L1b =XRqa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2012/06/14 00:28 (GMT+0200) Carlos E. R. composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
I've yet to notice any complaints from the listed X packages in my OP that mail is not available, much less from anything that might _logically_ require system mail to fully function normally.
Cron does need email, for example, as does at.
I guess it depends on one's interpretation of "need", "logically require", and "fully function". NAICT, cron is or can be fully functional by saying what it has to say by writing to a log, and thus shouldn't need a hard dependency on mail, which apparently is the actual case, since zypper didn't try to remove cron*, unlike xf86-video-* and most of kde3, when I tried to remove postfix/procmail/sendmail.
I don't know how it complains.
I'll bet that it at most includes a mail failure message in its log. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-14 02:49, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2012/06/14 00:28 (GMT+0200) Carlos E. R. composed:
Cron does need email, for example, as does at.
I guess it depends on one's interpretation of "need", "logically require", and "fully function". NAICT, cron is or can be fully functional by saying what it has to say by writing to a log, and thus shouldn't need a hard dependency on mail, which apparently is the actual case,
You are free to redesign cron and at. The current implementation does require email to work :-) That is besides what dependencies are defined for the rpms. If it is not defined, it is a bug :-p - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/ZWdYACgkQIvFNjefEBxrU3ACfWHYvBtnFr28hidDUKoxSMxJw SEoAoKF7x6vtutT0hI4Ygfx192LpCCdM =Ya6l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
El 13/06/12 23:26, Carlos E. R. escribió:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-06-14 02:49, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2012/06/14 00:28 (GMT+0200) Carlos E. R. composed:
Cron does need email, for example, as does at.
I guess it depends on one's interpretation of "need", "logically require", and "fully function". NAICT, cron is or can be fully functional by saying what it has to say by writing to a log, and thus shouldn't need a hard dependency on mail, which apparently is the actual case,
You are free to redesign cron and at. The current implementation does require email to work :-)
Current cronie can write to syslog instead of sending mails. It may also be replaced by systemd.timer(5) in the future, but it is not really ready to do so at the moment. at can possible be modified to do the same or support for an smtp library could be added. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
El 13/06/12 14:18, Felix Miata escribió:
I tried to remove all of procmail, sendmail and postfix with zypper rm. Zypper wanted to remove 42 packages, to wit:
Most (all?) of KDE3 nmh xf86-input-* xf86-video-* xkeyboard-config xmh xorg-x11 xorg-x11-driver-* xorg-x11-server
Can it not be (a) bug(s) that so much requires mail be installed?
This is part of the legacy of *nix, systems require an MTA installed even if not used. It happends because there are applications that are only able to deliver mail with /usr/sbin/sendmail. Yes, I see it as a bug, No.. it is not easy to fix. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 13.06.2012 23:30, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 13/06/12 14:18, Felix Miata escribió:
I tried to remove all of procmail, sendmail and postfix with zypper rm. Zypper wanted to remove 42 packages, to wit:
Most (all?) of KDE3 nmh xf86-input-* xf86-video-* xkeyboard-config xmh xorg-x11 xorg-x11-driver-* xorg-x11-server
Can it not be (a) bug(s) that so much requires mail be installed?
This is part of the legacy of *nix, systems require an MTA installed even if not used.
It happends because there are applications that are only able to deliver mail with /usr/sbin/sendmail.
Yes, I see it as a bug, No.. it is not easy to fix.
That's not really true, most desktop systems do not need an MTA, e.g. Ubuntu has hasn't included a MTA in their desktop default install for years and Fedora has taken steps to remove it as well [*]. Even from the command line mutt or mailx nowadays support SMTP directly. * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NoMTA -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Guido Berhoerster wrote:
On 13.06.2012 23:30, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 13/06/12 14:18, Felix Miata escribió: [...]
Can it not be (a) bug(s) that so much requires mail be installed?
This is part of the legacy of *nix, systems require an MTA installed even if not used.
It happends because there are applications that are only able to deliver mail with /usr/sbin/sendmail.
Yes, I see it as a bug, No.. it is not easy to fix.
That's not really true, most desktop systems do not need an MTA, e.g. Ubuntu has hasn't included a MTA in their desktop default install for years and Fedora has taken steps to remove it as well [*]. Even from the command line mutt or mailx nowadays support SMTP directly.
https://features.opensuse.org/312320 cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, Am Mittwoch, 13. Juni 2012 schrieb Felix Miata:
I tried to remove all of procmail, sendmail and postfix with zypper rm. Zypper wanted to remove 42 packages, to wit:
Can it not be (a) bug(s) that so much requires mail be installed?
Maybe that only one or two of the packages you listed really requires postfix, and everything else is caused by a dependency chain (to see an extreme example, try "rpm -e --test glibc" - funnily zypper will not even do that and offers to re-install glibc instead) Can you please run rpm -e --test postfix procmail # add more packages if needed to find out which package has a _direct_ dependency? Regards, Christian Boltz --
bei Bernd ist alles Zufall. Glaubst Du nicht, dass da Kristallkugel.pl zugeschlagen hat? Ich bin mir sicher, dass Bernd sowas auf seinem Rechner hat ;-) [> Michael Schulz u. Manfred Tremmel über Bernd Brodesser in suse-linux]
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 14.06.2012 13:38, schrieb Christian Boltz:
Hello,
Am Mittwoch, 13. Juni 2012 schrieb Felix Miata:
I tried to remove all of procmail, sendmail and postfix with zypper rm. Zypper wanted to remove 42 packages, to wit:
Can it not be (a) bug(s) that so much requires mail be installed?
Maybe that only one or two of the packages you listed really requires postfix, and everything else is caused by a dependency chain (to see an extreme example, try "rpm -e --test glibc" - funnily zypper will not even do that and offers to re-install glibc instead)
Can you please run rpm -e --test postfix procmail # add more packages if needed to find out which package has a _direct_ dependency?
scary: susi:~ # rpm -e --test postfix error: Failed dependencies: smtp_daemon is needed by (installed) nmh-1.3-14.5.x86_64 smtp_daemon is needed by (installed) fetchmail-6.3.21-6.4.x86_64 susi:~ # rpm -e --test fetchmail susi:~ # rpm -e --test nmh error: Failed dependencies: nmh is needed by (installed) xmh-1.0.2-1.1.x86_64 susi:~ # rpm -e --test xmh error: Failed dependencies: xmh is needed by (installed) xorg-x11-7.6_1-1.1.noarch and I cannot understand why xorg needs xmh and have removed this dependency from xorg-x11 in sr 124949 see also https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=767063, we need to fix this properly. BTW: fetchmail also does not need smtp_daemon... -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, Le jeudi 14 juin 2012, à 13:55 +0200, Stefan Seyfried a écrit :
Am 14.06.2012 13:38, schrieb Christian Boltz:
Hello,
Am Mittwoch, 13. Juni 2012 schrieb Felix Miata:
I tried to remove all of procmail, sendmail and postfix with zypper rm. Zypper wanted to remove 42 packages, to wit:
Can it not be (a) bug(s) that so much requires mail be installed?
Maybe that only one or two of the packages you listed really requires postfix, and everything else is caused by a dependency chain (to see an extreme example, try "rpm -e --test glibc" - funnily zypper will not even do that and offers to re-install glibc instead)
Can you please run rpm -e --test postfix procmail # add more packages if needed to find out which package has a _direct_ dependency?
scary:
susi:~ # rpm -e --test postfix error: Failed dependencies: smtp_daemon is needed by (installed) nmh-1.3-14.5.x86_64 smtp_daemon is needed by (installed) fetchmail-6.3.21-6.4.x86_64 susi:~ # rpm -e --test fetchmail susi:~ # rpm -e --test nmh error: Failed dependencies: nmh is needed by (installed) xmh-1.0.2-1.1.x86_64 susi:~ # rpm -e --test xmh error: Failed dependencies: xmh is needed by (installed) xorg-x11-7.6_1-1.1.noarch
and I cannot understand why xorg needs xmh and have removed this dependency from xorg-x11 in sr 124949
For the record, it's because xorg-x11 was including xmh before the big xorg packaging split. It just turned out that xmh (when included in xorg-x11) didn't have proper dependencies for what it needs.
see also https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=767063, we need to fix this properly.
I'm not sure we should drop xorg-x11 Requires as there are some files in this package that might be useful (I'm not sure, though). However, what we should do is change some of the Requires from xorg-x11 to Suggests, as this compatibility package doesn't have to bring the old useless deprecated X apps (and possibly everything related to xfs). We just need someone to closely look at all the Requires to check which ones are really important... Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (8)
-
Carlos E. R. -
Christian Boltz -
Cristian Rodríguez -
Felix Miata -
Guido Berhoerster -
Ludwig Nussel -
Stefan Seyfried -
Vincent Untz