On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 11:09:24 +0100 Oliver Neukum wrote:

- put keyboard selection first and make it affect language

This would be a clever solution, but not help the australians as they still would need to select "English (UK)"

That is if you just want ideas. I'd personally go for (4)

The "English (International)" as mentioned in another mail would probably be enough. -- Stefan Seyfried "Any ideas, John?" "Well, surrounding them's out." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Jiri Suchomel wrote:

User can decide now. Language and Keyboard selection is on the same screen so if user is not satisfied with automatic selection, he can choose differently.

It's just one more click for australian users.

Yep. Which is the same for many other users - the language selection is often only a rough indication of the kind of keyboard a user might have. When I choose Language = German, there is no way for for YaST to know that I have a Swiss-German keyboard. One possible way for YaST to make a better guess would be to use IP geolocation, maybe via a central service. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-0.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

C wrote:

On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 12:11, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Yep. Which is the same for many other users - the language selection is often only a rough indication of the kind of keyboard a user might have.  When I choose Language = German, there is no way for for YaST to know that I have a Swiss-German keyboard.

One possible way for YaST to make a better guess would be to use IP geolocation, maybe via a central service.

Eeeek! No.. not geolocation :-( That "technology" is the bane of my existence. It can never get it right for me as an English speaker living in Germany.

That's not a problem caused by geolocation though. That's more likely caused by poor use of the information.

I already have to special-order my keyboards from the Netherlands so I can get US English layout... adding geolocation will drive expats like me off the deep end (if we aren't there already :-) )

If we use the information appropriately, it could help make a more accurate guess. 95% of people do not leave their own countries to live anywhere else - the ones who do (e.g. you and I) are the exception. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-0.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 16:09, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Eeeek!  No.. not geolocation :-(  That "technology" is the bane of my existence.  It can never get it right for me as an English speaker living in Germany.  I already have to special-order my keyboards from

I guess as English speaker living in Germany you got used to find the "English" button on web pages, so I don't see this as valid objection against making it easier for the other >80 million germans.

My objection is not that I don't want to click on the English button.. it's that so many web sites depend on the geolocation instead of browser language preference... which is the "right" way to do it. Also.. so many international websites that are localised see I'm in Germany, switch to German and do not give me an opportunity to switch to English... no English button anywhere (no flag, no language selection dropdown), and if I force the issue and set EN in the URL in place of DE, it just switches back to DE. But this is outside the thread... and not going to be resolved here since it's nothing to do with openSUSE. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 30 November 2010 12:01:03 C wrote:

On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 10:36, Andreas Jaeger wrote: [...]

...

...

4) Add some more locales, like "English (AU)" that use English (UK) as language but English US keyboard.

This might be the best solution overall... but how many variants do you add? English (AU), (CA), (KE), (NI), (IN) etc etc? I think it might be better to add a single variant that somehow indicates English (UK) with English (US) keyboard since in most Commonwealth country cases, the country specific English is, as stated in the bug report, all UK based (eg Kenya uses UK spelling on US keyboards exactly as Australia does.. but there's no gain in having multiple locales with the same settings). How about English International? (or something similar)

Spelling is one setting, but locale like decimal point and currency is another one - and those are different... So which locale should be used? For "English (AU)", we would use en_AU as locale so that the user gets Australian Dollars instead of English Pounds (with en_UK). And should we really add many of these and bloat up the list or follow the "English International" idea? Or would that just confuse users? it might not be clear for them that they would get UK spelling ;) Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Jeff Mahoney wrote:

On 11/30/2010 09:26 AM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

On Tuesday 30 November 2010 12:01:03 C wrote:

...

On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 10:36, Andreas Jaeger wrote: [...]

...

...

4) Add some more locales, like "English (AU)" that use English (UK) as language but English US keyboard.

This might be the best solution overall... but how many variants do you add? English (AU), (CA), (KE), (NI), (IN) etc etc? I think it might be better to add a single variant that somehow indicates English (UK) with English (US) keyboard since in most Commonwealth country cases, the country specific English is, as stated in the bug report, all UK based (eg Kenya uses UK spelling on US keyboards exactly as Australia does.. but there's no gain in having multiple locales with the same settings). How about English International? (or something similar)

Spelling is one setting, but locale like decimal point and currency is another one - and those are different...

So which locale should be used? For "English (AU)", we would use en_AU as locale so that the user gets Australian Dollars instead of English Pounds (with en_UK).

And should we really add many of these and bloat up the list or follow the "English International" idea? Or would that just confuse users? it might not be clear for them that they would get UK spelling ;)

I really like the geolocation idea integrated with the timezone map. Point out where you are, and the list can be as long as it needs to be since it's hidden from most users. Have an expert button for users like Per or "C" that are among the minority that don't have a setup that matches the locale.

The timezone screen currently is the third IIRC so it's too late there. Maybe the map (and only the map) should be made the first screen instead. Based on what country the user chooses a second screen could suggest language, keyboard and time zone. The default selection for the map could indeed be based on geolocation, it's just a hint that can be changed easily after all. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen wrote:

Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

The timezone screen currently is the third IIRC so it's too late there. Maybe the map (and only the map) should be made the first screen instead. Based on what country the user chooses a second screen could suggest language, keyboard and time zone. The default selection for the map could indeed be based on geolocation, it's just a hint that can be changed easily after all.

I think it might make sense to put the map, and the initial guess of language, keyboard and locale on one page altogether. It's not a lot of information and it's all pertinent to the individual user.

For the geolocation, I think we'll need to use an external query, e.g. via http. (http://geo.jessen.ch/)

I should have mentioned - the geolocation data is courtesy of http://countries.nerd.dk, I take absolutely no credit. The server can also be queried like this: http://geo.jessen.ch/ip.add.re.ss IPv4 only. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-1.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Tuesday, 2010-11-30 at 16:56 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

...

I think it might make sense to put the map, and the initial guess of language, keyboard and locale on one page altogether. It's not a lot of information and it's all pertinent to the individual user.

Yes.

...

For the geolocation, I think we'll need to use an external query, e.g. via http. (http://geo.jessen.ch/) Many users are connected via NAT, so a direct lookup based on the IP of a NIC would not suffice.

But it requires network to be up at that time, and currently it is setup much later.

It's not a problem setting it up right away, that's what a network install does.

By the way, your site gives:

+++···························· Not Acceptable

An appropriate representation of the requested resource / could not be found on this server.

Yeah, I saw that - I think w3m is sending something odd in the request. You could try wget or firefox. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-1.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 11/30/2010 03:43 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Tuesday, 2010-11-30 at 17:58 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

...

...

But it requires network to be up at that time, and currently it is setup much later.

...

It's not a problem setting it up right away, that's what a network install does.

The network install, yes. But if you need user interaction to setup the network, you have to do it in English, not the selected language.

I don't think that's a reasonable fall-back. The hassle of having to set up the network in a language that the user may not understand far outweighs the potential benefit of having an automatic hint on the map. - -Jeff - -- Jeff Mahoney SUSE Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkz1Ym8ACgkQLPWxlyuTD7IQQwCcC0M5BkBiVx47Aqwc6fQvc2UD 0W0AoII6uBGsBAfeRxoPaezFmlH0RiVo =kUJt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 1. Dezember 2010, 08:06:22 schrieb Per Jessen:

...

I don't think that's a reasonable fall-back. The hassle of having to set up the network in a language that the user may not understand far outweighs the potential benefit of having an automatic hint on the map.

Agree. Still, how many (apart from dial-up users perhaps) would have to set up the network manually?

Those who regularly use WLAN. Regards Oliver -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2010-12-01 at 08:06 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

Jeff Mahoney wrote:

...

On 11/30/2010 03:43 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I don't think that's a reasonable fall-back. The hassle of having to set up the network in a language that the user may not understand far outweighs the potential benefit of having an automatic hint on the map.

Agree. Still, how many (apart from dial-up users perhaps) would have to set up the network manually? If we take a single PC, connected to the internet, somewhere there will likely be a DHCP service, either in the router or direct from the provider.

Wifi. And network card setup. For example, my computer has two cards, one disconnected. Automatic discovery would take a longish time. I think that the idea of displaying a map upfront is nice. Geodiscovery too, but it is not so simple. Perhaps if the network can be tried in the background, and if found guess the location, but else, nothing. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkz2FdwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Un8wCfTJB5Y2SieFQyFCZxV6SJkw4U NxMAn2FXyTeytwTYjkZvooOmD0K1i+Q3 =aD2d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz wrote:

Le mardi 30 novembre 2010, à 16:56 +0100, Per Jessen a écrit :

...

For the geolocation, I think we'll need to use an external query, e.g. via http. (http://geo.jessen.ch/) Many users are connected via NAT, so a direct lookup based on the IP of a NIC would not suffice.

Or we can simply use geoclue, that can use different sources.

http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/GeoClue

I'm sure we're getting _way_ ahead of ourselves, but I can't help thinking that that sounds like overkill in comparison to a wget or curl fetch? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-2.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Ludwig Nussel wrote:

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

The timezone screen currently is the third IIRC so it's too late there. Maybe the map (and only the map) should be made the first screen instead. Based on what country the user chooses a second screen could suggest language, keyboard and time zone. The default selection for the map could indeed be based on geolocation, it's just a hint that can be changed easily after all.

I think it might make sense to put the map, and the initial guess of language, keyboard and locale on one page altogether. It's not a lot of information and it's all pertinent to the individual user.

Well, the timezone screen also configures the system clock atm (whether it's set to UTC, whether to use NTP etc).

True, it does. That doesn't really belong on the first page though.

...

For the geolocation, I think we'll need to use an external query, e.g. via http. (http://geo.jessen.ch/) Many users are connected via NAT, so a direct lookup based on the IP of a NIC would not suffice.

No need for an external service. The download redirector already determines where the client is coming from. So it could just send that information back in an http header when the repo data is fetched.

We can't assume that this is an actual network install nor a network install via the download redirector. Otherwise that is an optimal place to get a countrycode from. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-2.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 30. November 2010, 15:26:38 schrieb Andreas Jaeger:

Spelling is one setting, but locale like decimal point and currency is another one - and those are different...

So how do we do this for other odd cases, for example the German minority in Belgium?

So which locale should be used? For "English (AU)", we would use en_AU as locale so that the user gets Australian Dollars instead of English Pounds (with en_UK).

What about New Zealand and others?

And should we really add many of these and bloat up the list or follow the "English International" idea? Or would that just confuse users? it might not be clear for them that they would get UK spelling ;)

Then call it English(British Commonwealth) Regards Oliver -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 11/30/2010 11:03 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

Oliver Neukum wrote:

...

Am Dienstag, 30. November 2010, 15:26:38 schrieb Andreas Jaeger:

...

Spelling is one setting, but locale like decimal point and currency is another one - and those are different...

So how do we do this for other odd cases, for example the German minority in Belgium?

I think we should focus on getting it right for 95% and give the remaining 5% an easy way to change our proposal. That's what we do today, but using geolocation could make it even better.

Exactly. I think this is a case where perfection is the enemy of the good. There will *always* be corner cases and if we can make it work for most of the users and fall back to the manual selection for those who fall outside that realm then we're still much better off. - -Jeff - -- Jeff Mahoney SUSE Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkz1IPQACgkQLPWxlyuTD7IIZgCeI/GkpE5sRHTLn0NAjo0XuRho OTMAoJPPnDtDGE0/jmZq/j+GQbq8aNWB =KIEu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2010-11-30 at 12:29 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

Use IP geolocation to make a better guess about the users geographical location. Then we could have a lookup-table indexed by (language,location) that would give a list of the most commonly found keyboards for that combination. E.g. "En(UK),AU" -> US (possibly plus others).

There is already a map selection where we choose country for the hour selection. It could be used for more things. As long as we can change the automaticaclly choosen defaults - me, I live in Spain, so I need the Spanish keyboard, but I want programs in English, so I use the US locale, with further adjustements later to get the coin set to Euros, decimal separator, etc. So, click on the country, and set timezone, keyboard, and language. Then allow the user to change any of them independently (which we can do now). - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkz0/QwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V4NQCfW0kLesTDyXgg49fwrIk8IfB5 RuEAni9D5RmebkfyBPHY6BEU2hzVsI4R =Z3JC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2010-11-30 at 14:54 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

...

So, click on the country, and set timezone, keyboard, and language. Then allow the user to change any of them independently (which we can do now).

Better still (if we _are_ going to re-arrange this), use geolocation to make a decent guess first, then set timezone, keyboard, and language and (obviously) allow the user the change all three.

That is what I mean. Use geolocation, put the map with that default, the user changes the selection or not, and gets three boxes: timezone, language, keyboard. Not applied till the user select "apply" (for testing) or Ok or next. The problem would be what language to use for that first screen - I guess English. Unless you could put a language selection in grub. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkz1C3MACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W+IACdGWvPTcNnEM2V0jNxAbdP4uVz eDEAmwaazFU3RXbBoFXkuc7ShA7bfWet =1vpj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Jiri Suchomel wrote:

About that location idea discussed here, it does not solve the keyboard layout problem in general. While it might help for Australia, selecting country does not help in cases with more keyboard variants for country (Canada, Belgium, Germany...). So we'd be back to 'good proposal for some, manual selection for others' situation, which we already have.

Yes, apart from the Apple example and without being able to query the keyboard itself, it's simply impossible to know which layout it is. There will always be a group of users for whom our proposal is spot on, and another group who have to manually amend our proposal. Geolocation was only intended to help improve our proposal. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-0.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Dne čtvrtek 02 Prosinec 2010 10:58:25 Karl Eichwalder napsal(a):

Jiri Suchomel writes:

...

2. sets the language used by YaST , these are the text stored under /usr/share/YaST2/locale/ and packaged into yast2-trans-* . We provide en_US and en_GB: what should we do for AU, NZ, CA? Create a symlinks to en_GB? Or do nothing, which means the backup to en_US?

Set a language cascade. For AU, e.g.:

LANGUAGE=en_AU:en_GB:en_US

I hope we already do this for Portuguese/Brazil, the Norwegian languages (nn/nb), and, maybe, even for Czech/Slovakian.

For Norwegian, we have a hack in YaST that checks if nn_NO is selected, and changes it to nb_NO; but this is done only for YaST translations and only in running instance (installation). I do not know about other occurences, do you mean anything differrent? Jiri -- Jiri Suchomel SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsuchome@suse.cz Lihovarská 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 960 190 00 Praha 9, Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Dne čtvrtek 02 Prosinec 2010 14:46:27 Karl Eichwalder napsal(a):

Jiri Suchomel writes:

...

...

LANGUAGE=en_AU:en_GB:en_US

I hope we already do this for Portuguese/Brazil, the Norwegian languages (nn/nb), and, maybe, even for Czech/Slovakian.

For Norwegian, we have a hack in YaST that checks if nn_NO is selected, and changes it to nb_NO; but this is done only for YaST translations and only in running instance (installation).

I do not know about other occurences, do you mean anything differrent?

Probably ;) I really want you to set the LANGUAGE environment variable. From the gettext manual:

But YaST does not set environment variables. It saves RC_LANG to /etc/sysconfig/language and somehow this is base for the locale. AFAIK we do not set LANGUAGE variable at all. Jiri -- Jiri Suchomel SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsuchome@suse.cz Lihovarská 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 960 190 00 Praha 9, Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org