On 04/12/2017 09:54 AM, Luca Beltrame wrote:

...

But back to your original question....I dont think that openSUSE can push KDE. Open a bug in openSUSE, and open a bug in bugs.kde.org if +1. In fact, open bugs in bugzilla (openSUSE) are required in order to push updates as well.

To confirm, all KDE bugs should be accompanied by an openSUSE bug as well? Because I've filed a whole bunch... Nate -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 13. April 2017, 07:04:28 schrieb Axel Braun:

Probably only for Leap versions. Tumbleweed should receive the latest developments anyway....

Indeed. But to clarify what Luca wrote: We need an openSUSE bug report to do updates for *released* openSUSE products, i.e. Leap 42.1 and 42.2 currently. It makes absolutely no sense to duplicate all open KDE bug reports in openSUSE's bugzilla. KDE's bugzilla is freely accessible anyway... ;-) And we (the openSUSE KDE team) won't be able to handle all those bug reports, we already have lots of open ones where nobody finds the time to look at (aside of creating/updating/maintaining hundreds of packages). KDE does have a lot more contributors than openSUSE's KDE team, not to mention that for many bugs you need detailed in-depth knowledge that only the actual developers have. The general rule is: - if the bug is caused by our packaging (wrong/missing dependencies, build flags, broken patches, ...), file a bug report at openSUSE - if it's a bug in the software itself, file it upstream It's of course not always easy to tell where the problem lies (not even for us), but if people at least try to follow this it would help a lot already. If your upstream bug report is fixed, you are of course welcome to (and should) file a bug report against openSUSE so that we can backport the fix (if possible). As mentioned that doesn't really apply to Tumbleweed, as that gets the latest upstream versions anyway, but a (openSUSE) bug report may speed up getting a fix as we can add it to our packages before it is contained in an actual release. Kind Regards, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 12. April 2017, 17:54:22 CEST schrieb Luca Beltrame:

Il giorno Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:15:24 +0200

Axel Braun ha scritto:

...

by chance in a newer versions (one reason for me to switch to Tumbleweed, as backports from KDE team never happen, or only in a

Limited scope is what the maintenance team (who ultimately is the one doing the updates) prefers- and I agree with them, because reviewing large changes such as backports is often problematic and you never know what kind of regressions may pop up (and yes, we've got earfuls before due to that).

Plus some components of the stack (like PIM, and I applaud Wolfgang for being able to extract changes from there) truly change *a lot*, and it's often a combination of these changes that "fixes" problems.

One question comes into my mind: Is KDE Enterprise-Ready? An enterprise needs a stable environment over a period of time, receiving bugfixes, but no major changes. So a rolling release is not the option, but a classical model like Leap would fit. But if you dont receive fixes for the bugs (even if you are willing to pay for it), KDE would not be an option for an enterprise. Maybe more a topic to discuss KDE-internally. But worth to mention anyway. Cheers Axel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 13 April 2017 at 07:10, Axel Braun wrote:

...

Plus some components of the stack (like PIM, and I applaud Wolfgang for being able to extract changes from there) truly change *a lot*, and it's often a combination of these changes that "fixes" problems.

One question comes into my mind: Is KDE Enterprise-Ready?

An enterprise needs a stable environment over a period of time, receiving bugfixes, but no major changes. So a rolling release is not the option, but a classical model like Leap would fit.

But if you dont receive fixes for the bugs (even if you are willing to pay for it), KDE would not be an option for an enterprise.

Maybe more a topic to discuss KDE-internally. But worth to mention anyway.

It's a question I've asked KDE just over a year ago https://lwn.net/Articles/681417/ While I have seen some efforts to address the concerns I raised back then, this thread suggests there is still plenty of room for improvement. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/12/2017 11:10 PM, Axel Braun wrote:

One question comes into my mind: Is KDE Enterprise-Ready? Well, most of the Turkish government uses it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardus_(operating_system)

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 16:15:24 CEST Axel Braun wrote:

[…] I would really love to see more bugs getting fixed before some nitty gritty technology change is being implemented (which the end user does not understand anyway...)

IMHO the problem is not any lacking tools. If people would be interested to fix bugs then they would get fixed and if the workflow is too tedious then someone would step up to improve it. So the question is rather why are KDE developers not that active in fixing bugs and also not revisit old bugs. Probably simply for the following reasons: New features and even platform technology changes.are more interesting to volunteering contributors than revisiting (old) bugs. If I understood correctly there is more company backing for gnome than KDE (e.g. only supported or main desktop environment on SUSE Linux Enterprise and Red Had Enterprise Linux being gnome) so also less paid contributors to "motivate" to fix issues rather than do cool new - and potentially broken - stuff. But openSUSE Tumbleweed as rolling distribution offering the latest plasma version as well openSUSE Krypton [1] with even the latest git snapshot running on Tumbleweed also can help to provide much faster feedback to upstream plasma. And faster feedback means that issues are not about "old" bugs but issues in what developers have developed "just now". So if you want bugs to be fixed more maybe show that these happen in openQA tests on the latest upstream version as well :-) * [1]: Latest tests of openSUSE Krypton on https://openqa.opensuse.org/ group_overview/23 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday, 19 April 2017 15:03:47 BST Wolfgang Bauer wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 12. April 2017, 13:56:21 schrieb ianseeks:

...

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=345100

FTR, I investigated this issue last Friday, and submitted a fix for review today (not earlier because I had no time over the weekend, due to "family obligations").

As soon as it is accepted, I will submit it to Factory and 42.3 of course. (for 42.1 and 42.2, somebody would need to file an openSUSE bug report as mentioned already... ;-) )

I don't really want to comment much on the rest of the things that have been posted here (and not only in this thread) in the last days, too much has been written already...

Just one thing: there apparently are also long-standing bugs in GTK (despite it apparently being the preferred choice for "Enterprise distributions"), see e.g.: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=729651 https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=898940 (which I only happened to notice because openSUSE's shutter maintainer asked for help on the opensuse-kde mailinglist...)

I don't want to start (or continue) a flame war on this, but obviously this problem (long-standing bug reports that don't get fixed or even commented upon by the developers) is not really specific to KDE at all.

Kind Regards, Wolfgang

Thanks Wolfgang. I'm only concerned with KDE/Plasma as that is what i use but i am sure all environments are subject to outstanding bugs. Its just a little frustrating when you report a bug, it sometime sits there for ages with no change of status (or a comment) even though it has been looked at by the devs. Just a one word comment of "noted" in the bug report would help get rid of some of the frustrated and really unnecessary emails chasing. Regards Ian -- opensuse:tumbleweed:20170417 Qt: 5.7.1 KDE Frameworks: 5.32.0 KDE Plasma: 5.9.4 kwin 5.9.4 kmail2 5.4.3 akonadiserver 5.4.3 Kernel: 4.10.9-1-default Nouveau: 1.0.14_1.1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 19. April 2017, 18:24:22 schrieb Ruediger Meier:

Regarding "enterprise ready", I don't think this means they would fix *all* bugs immediatly.

Of course, and I don't blame them for that. But that's exactly what we (i.e. "KDE") were being critizised for here.

But I guess this bug whould have been already fixed if you could reproduce it on RHEL or SLE.

I'm sure you can. Just have a look at my reproduction steps in the openSUSE bug report, and the upstream GNOME/GTK bug report is still open too. (it got reported in 2004 and the last comment is from a user in 2005 that this is still a problem)

The thing is that the more packages a distro provides the more problems of this kind may occur ... just two different programs not playing well together. The enterprise distros just "fix" such problems by only providing one of both programs.

This particular bug applies to *all* themes that set a certain flag. Ok, they could argue that this is not supported, but then they should not crash on it either.

Moreover since most Gnome developers probably don't use KDE it's somehow understandable they either can't reproduce it or that just nobody is motivated to fix it. Maybe the KDE developers should send a patch since this bug looks important mostly for KDE users.

Now this is getting a bit ridiculous IMHO. On one hand it is being said that we ("KDE") are not able to handle our own problems, and now we should also track down, investigate, and fix GTK's problems as well? Just because we try to integrate GTK applications into a KDE desktop too? I'd just like to note here again that this particular problem is not related to KDE at all, it happens with *all* themes that set this particular option. (of course, the themes provided by GTK upstream don't do that...) Anyway, this is not really a big problem from our side anymore, as we ("KDE") default to breeze anyway, which does not set this particular option either. Kind Regards, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 19. April 2017, 20:29:04 schrieb Andrei Borzenkov:

19.04.2017 20:25, Wolfgang Bauer пишет:

...

...

But I guess this bug whould have been already fixed if you could reproduce it on RHEL or SLE.

I'm sure you can.

No, they do not have alternative DE to run program under :)

It's not related to the DE, it depends on the GTK theme one uses... Kind Regards, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 19 April 2017, Wolfgang Bauer wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 19. April 2017, 18:24:22 schrieb Ruediger Meier:

...

Regarding "enterprise ready", I don't think this means they would fix *all* bugs immediatly.

Of course, and I don't blame them for that.

But that's exactly what we (i.e. "KDE") were being critizised for here.

...

But I guess this bug whould have been already fixed if you could reproduce it on RHEL or SLE.

I'm sure you can. Just have a look at my reproduction steps in the openSUSE bug report, and the upstream GNOME/GTK bug report is still open too. (it got reported in 2004 and the last comment is from a user in 2005 that this is still a problem)

...

The thing is that the more packages a distro provides the more problems of this kind may occur ... just two different programs not playing well together. The enterprise distros just "fix" such problems by only providing one of both programs.

This particular bug applies to *all* themes that set a certain flag.

Ok, they could argue that this is not supported, but then they should not crash on it either.

...

Moreover since most Gnome developers probably don't use KDE it's somehow understandable they either can't reproduce it or that just nobody is motivated to fix it. Maybe the KDE developers should send a patch since this bug looks important mostly for KDE users.

Now this is getting a bit ridiculous IMHO.

On one hand it is being said that we ("KDE") are not able to handle our own problems, and now we should also track down, investigate, and fix GTK's problems as well? Just because we try to integrate GTK applications into a KDE desktop too?

I'd just like to note here again that this particular problem is not related to KDE at all, it happens with *all* themes that set this particular option. (of course, the themes provided by GTK upstream don't do that...)

Hm, maybe I have not understood the bug reports correctly. I have read it like it's a bug in gtk3 but only triggered if kde (or at least a 3rd party custom theme) is involved too. Is that correct? If yes, then it's probably not reproducible on plain SLE. It's more like a porting issue, not affecting Gnome's major targets. Of course it should be fixed by gtk3 people. But in the real world and especially in the enterprise world developeres focus on a smaller subset of all possible targets and scenarios. BTW I'm not a Gnome fanboy. Actually I hate Gnome and would never use it by myself. But I would have loved if KDE development style is a bit more like Gnome (except the part that it requires systemd). Probably I would still use KDE then. Though I'm still using KDE-3.5 mostly (beside trying to get familar with fluxbox or xfce on FreeBSD to get rid of all this systemd/freedesktop crap). cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org