On 18/07/2019 07:07, simonizor wrote:

The real issue here seems to be that the libXxf86misc1 package is no longer available for Factory.  What has changed here?  It is still being built for Leap, but not Factory... https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/X11%3AXOrg/libXxf86misc

It would seem as if maybe MATE does not actually need this lib anymore, but it's a bit strange that it's just not available for Factory anymore.

Not really, the last upstream commit was on June 1, 2014, which makes it sound very much like its no longer maintained and probably should be dropped at some point, potentially it now also fails to build. It is very uncommon for something to be dropped in Leap, as it should stay pretty constant, at the same time because this has been dropped from Tumbleweed it means it won't be in SLE / Leap 16 so that's when the drop will likely happen for leap.

On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 6:19:22 AM CDT, Jonathan Brielmaier wrote:

...

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I just went a head and fixed the problem, by adding a patch from upstream master: https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/716029

Maybe I should ask for maintainer privileges for X11:MATE:Factory as I'm using lots of MATE packages in my i3 setup...

On 7/17/19 11:52 AM, Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:

...

Hi all,

for two weeks already, MATE desktop is not installable on openSUSE Tumbleweed. A bug was filed on July 1st [0]

Neither the bugowner nor any of the declared maintainers (all are added to CC) reacted to the bug report. ...

-- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 7:19 PM Jonathan Brielmaier wrote:

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I just went a head and fixed the problem, by adding a patch from upstream master: https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/716029

Maybe I should ask for maintainer privileges for X11:MATE:Factory as I'm using lots of MATE packages in my i3 setup...

On 7/17/19 11:52 AM, Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:

...

Hi all,

for two weeks already, MATE desktop is not installable on openSUSE Tumbleweed. A bug was filed on July 1st [0]

Neither the bugowner nor any of the declared maintainers (all are added to CC) reacted to the bug report.

Considering that MATE is, in its current form, not even installable (as it still relies on dropped features from Xorg), I have to believe that MATE is no longer actively maintained in openSUSE Tumbleweed.

Please, all: prove me wrong - send fixes to openSUSE:Factory (via the devel prj, hopefuly fixes get accepted there) :)

I'd say, if this bug is not being addressed by end of the month, there is no other chance than accepting MATE as unmaintained and dropping it from Tumbleweed (which would defacto be no loss compared to the current state)

Cheers, Dominique

[0] https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1139857

-- Jonathan Brielmaier SUSE Linux GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Mary Higgins, Sri Rasiah HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

I also rely on few MATE applications. I'm happy to give a hand if needed. Cheers, -- Maurizio Galli (MauG) Xfce Team https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Xfce -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 7/19/19 11:56 AM, simonizor wrote:

Is there any sort of process for notifying maintainers of packages if other package(s) their package(s) depend on are being removed from Factory?  I looked around for some sort of notification about this, but found nothing. How are people supposed to be aware that things their packages depend on are being removed from Factory?  Do they just always have to watch their package to make sure it builds?

OBS sends you an email when your packages fail to build, unless you have disabled notifications.

Next time maybe instead of calling for the removal of one of the more popular desktop environments on Linux because a lib was removed from Factory that caused it to not build and the maintainer didn't notice, mayhap ask for people to step up and maintain it.

I believe that was the intention of the email sent by Dominique. To either get the maintainers attention or someone to step up to help.

Honestly, if MATE would have been removed, I would have probably been looking for another distro as I use a few things from MATE in my setup, and I do not at all find calling for MATE to be removed from Factory due to one lib being removed from Factory to be a nice thing to do.

You know how to package with OBS well enough so you could also help keeping the software you use up to date. The lib was rightly removed because it's so old that even Debian dropped or will drop support for it. MATE fixed the dependency to it itself recently too. I agree that in general an headsup in this ML before packages are removed would be preferred (and I think this is what normally happens anyway). -- Maurizio Galli (MauG) Xfce Team https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Xfce -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, 2019-07-18 at 12:40 +0800, Maurizio Galli (MauG) wrote:

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 7:19 PM Jonathan Brielmaier < jbrielmaier@suse.de> wrote:

...

Maybe I should ask for maintainer privileges for X11:MATE:Factory as I'm using lots of MATE packages in my i3 setup...

I also rely on few MATE applications. I'm happy to give a hand if needed. Cheers,

That would be awesome! Thanks both of you :) On Thu, 2019-07-18 at 22:56 -0500, simonizor wrote:

Is there any sort of process for notifying maintainers of packages if other package(s) their package(s) depend on are being removed from Factory?

There is both a technical notification provcided by OBS, and this very thread you are referring to is a proof of a human led follow up that is initiated if the maintainers are not responsive to those notifications. As brutal as it is to say, the simple reality is that it doesn't matter how many users any stack in any open source distribution has; If that stack is not maintained, it cant be distributed. And it's slightly paradoxical but worth considering that "grumpy users objecting" typically doesn't motivate new volunteers to step up to resolve a situation. If you care about any open source project where things aren't going quite the way you want, you're far more likely to inspire others to change things with supportive suggestions than pontificating about negative possibilities like how you would leave if you dont get your way. On Fri, 2019-07-19 at 06:58 +0000, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:

On 7/19/19 6:09 AM, Maurizio Galli (MauG) wrote:

...

You know how to package with OBS well enough so you could also help keeping the software you use up to date. The lib was rightly removed because it's so old that even Debian dropped or will drop support for it. MATE fixed the dependency to it itself recently too. I agree that in general an headsup in this ML before packages are removed would be preferred (and I think this is what normally happens anyway).

"even Debian dropped it" is a weird thing to say when the library package in question was removed in Debian 9 years ago [1].

Adrian

...

[1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=568285

Dear John Paul Adrian, I think you need to accept the reality of Debians reputation and the illustrative benefit it provides both the writer and readers to use commonly understood reputations as a narrative device in conversation. "Debian is old" is a useful cliche in the same way that "Arch is fast" and "Ubuntu is user friendly" even when the absolute truth of a specific example might be incorrect. -- Richard Brown Linux Distribution Engineer - Future Technology Team Chairman - openSUSE Phone +4991174053-361 SUSE Linux GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg GF: Felix Imendörffer, Mary Higgins, Sri Rasiah HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2019-07-19 at 08:01 -0500, simonizor wrote:

On Friday, July 19, 2019 4:04:46 AM CDT, Richard Brown wrote:

...

And it's slightly paradoxical but worth considering that "grumpy users objecting" typically doesn't motivate new volunteers to step up to resolve a situation.

That's almost exactly what this sounded like to me. It did not at all sound like a request for maintainers. It sounded like someone frustrated that MATE wouldn't build for a while and that the maintainer went MIA, so lets get rid of it.

you very clearly missed this statemt: Please, all: prove me wrong - send fixes to openSUSE:Factory (via the devel prj, hopefuly fixes get accepted there) :) Cheers, Dominique

On Fri, 2019-07-19 at 08:01 -0500, simonizor wrote:

I don't know what you are talking about, but I was not being negative at all.

Oh then I clearly misunderstood the tone, content, and context of the below quotes from one of your earlier mails, both seem rather negative to me.

Honestly, if MATE would have been removed, I would have probably been looking for another distro as I use a few things from MATE in my setup, and I do not at all find calling for MATE to be removed from Factory due to one lib being removed from Factory to be a nice thing to do.

And

This honestly would make openSUSE look pretty bad if one of the more popular desktop environments got removed from their repos because of one lib being removed... something like this is a pretty simple fix.

This one leads me to the thought - if it's such a simple fix, wouldn't you doing it be a more worthwhile contribution to the project rather than op-ining on how it's a simple fix? But like you said, you weren't being negative at all..so my advice can just stand as a general pointer for all list members. Regards, -- Richard Brown Linux Distribution Engineer - Future Technology Team Chairman - openSUSE Phone +4991174053-361 SUSE Linux GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg GF: Felix Imendörffer, Mary Higgins, Sri Rasiah HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2019-07-19 at 08:14 -0500, simonizor wrote:

I don't have time to contribute to projects like this. I have time to be an openSUSE user, and that's about it. You saying that pretty much anyone who makes a complaint should step up and maintain things when they have complaints makes it feel like only people who are able to step up and maintain things should be using openSUSE and like valid complaints fall on deaf ears.

I have heard sooo many times that people are unwilling to make complaints to openSUSE now as they will just be told to step up and contribute.

Not everyone has the time or capability to contribute, sorry.

Sure, you do not need to contribute. But then don't demean and deminish the work of people who do the work you dont have the time or the inclination to do, and then share the proceeds of their work with you, for free. That doesn't mean your posts are not welcome, but consider the tone and the content of your posts and ensure they convey the feelings and respect you wish to the volunteers you are dependant on. For example, a single "simple fix" provided by a motivated volunteer is worth more than an infinate amount of your mailinglist posts threatening to take your use of a free distribution if we don't do what you tell us. I work really hard to never critique the hard work of others as a "simple fix", unless I am absolutely willing to take on that work with or instead of them. I'd suggest you consider a similar approach. Regards, -- Richard Brown Linux Distribution Engineer - Future Technology Team Chairman - openSUSE Phone +4991174053-361 SUSE Linux GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg GF: Felix Imendörffer, Mary Higgins, Sri Rasiah HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 7/19/19 9:30 PM, simonizor wrote:

You are reading into things more than you should.  Sorry, but this is a simple fix.  Not at all a fix worth removing an entire popular desktop environment from Factory for.  If this was a call for maintainers, sorry, but it should have been a bit more clear as it seems like a call to delete MATE.

Since the fixes are on the way I hope we can put a lid on this thread before it gets toxic. At least for me it was clear that it was a call for maintainers and ONLY IF nobody responded then yes the deletion of MATE. Which makes sense if something is broken and nobody wants to fix, there isn't much else to do. -- Maurizio Galli (MauG) Xfce Team https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Xfce -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2019-07-19 at 08:30 -0500, simonizor wrote:

You are reading into things more than you should. Sorry, but this is a simple fix. Not at all a fix worth removing an entire popular desktop environment from Factory for. If this was a call for maintainers, sorry, but it should have been a bit more clear as it seems like a call to delete MATE.

That's my fault - just experience has thought me that I get much more replies and reactions when I threaten to drop things from Tumbleweed. Asking for maintainers usually ends up everybdoy waiting for somebody else. Keep in mind that I even already threatened to drop things like 'perf', simly because the assigned maintainers 'missed' to fix it. so, in one way: this thread DID have the wanted effect: MATE is being fixed and submitted again. And very likely more people will keep an eye on it (and it's bug reports. Cheers, Dominique

On Sun, 2019-07-21 at 17:31 +0200, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:

Dominique, you're doing an impressive job. Given, you manage a can of worms, you're to the point, targeted on fixing problems, while always being polite and calming down upset people.

I cannot imagine, how you could improve, what you're doing. It's a real pleasure for me to be part of this community, and a proud user of Tumbleweed.

Thank you very much for those kind words Hans-Peter! This must prove to become a great week if already Mondays start like thar. Cheers, Dominique

On Fri, 2019-07-19 at 08:30 -0500, simonizor wrote:

On Friday, July 19, 2019 8:22:26 AM CDT, Richard Brown wrote:

...

Sure, you do not need to contribute.

But then don't demean and deminish the work of people who do the work you dont have the time or the inclination to do, and then share the proceeds of their work with you, for free.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. This right here makes it feel like anyone who has a complaint had best be willing to step up and maintain things. Just last night when I told someone to make a complaint about how slow the kernels were being released, I was met with the reply "And be told to contribute? No thanks". I am not at all demeaning anything by complaining about how things are going. If every time someone has a complaint, you're just going to tell them to contribute, eventually people are just going to stop making complaints. I have seen this first hand.

...

That doesn't mean your posts are not welcome, but consider the tone and the content of your posts and ensure they convey the feelings and respect you wish to the volunteers you are dependant on.

I'm sorry, but my tone was not rude or demanding. I simply was letting y'all know how frustrated something like this makes me.

Sorry to burst your bubble and pour cold water on your enflamed passions, but this isn't opensuse-therapy@opensuse.org This is a technical mailinglist, for the technical people building openSUSE, who are motivated by their own reasons to contribute to spend their spare time doing stuff in openSUSE. If your frustration is not enough to motivate you to contribute, then how is it remotely logical to expect your frustration to be enough to motivate a stranger? Your frustration is irrelevant to the vast majority of the people here.

For example, a single "simple fix" provided by a motivated volunteer is

...

worth more than an infinate amount of your mailinglist posts threatening to take your use of a free distribution if we don't do what you tell us.

Then make a clear call for maintainers and don't make it seem like this is a call to drop the package.

...

I work really hard to never critique the hard work of others as a "simple fix", unless I am absolutely willing to take on that work with or instead of them.

You are reading into things more than you should. Sorry, but this is a simple fix. Not at all a fix worth removing an entire popular desktop environment from Factory for. If this was a call for maintainers, sorry, but it should have been a bit more clear as it seems like a call to delete MATE.

I feel you are not reading enough into things. Understand how a Project of our size works. The people responsible for Tumbleweed as a whole don't care especially about one desktop environment. It is just one out of half a dozen we have in the distribution. Likewise they don't care especially for any one package out of the thousands we have in the distribution. That is why we have maintainers for that. And if it turns out we don't have maintainers who are willing to fix things when they are clearly broken for months, and if have no users who are motivated to step up and become maintainers after it being clearly broken for months, then the only rational cause of action is to consider dropping the package. It doesn't matter if that upsets one, ten, or a million non-motivated- to-contribute users. Emotion is irrelevant here. We build a distribution. We don't build broken software. That is precisely the path walked by the contributors you criticise here. MATE has been broken for a very long while. The established maintainers have done nothing about it. No users closest to the problems have done anything about it. This thread is the last chance for someone to step up. There is no need to get emotional about it, facts of life, a volunteer organisation cannot create contributions out of thin air. If you want a solution that avoids such risks, there are always options like paying people to do the work you are not willing to do. I would calmly suggest you can your emotions and reevaluate your views. If you are only prepared to complain with emotionally charged arguments, I kindly request you choose any other venue than this technical mailinglist to do so, because we have work to do here. Regards, -- Richard Brown Linux Distribution Engineer - Future Technology Team Chairman - openSUSE Phone +4991174053-361 SUSE Linux GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg GF: Felix Imendörffer, Mary Higgins, Sri Rasiah HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday, July 19, 2019 8:47:03 AM CDT, Richard Brown wrote:

On Fri, 2019-07-19 at 08:30 -0500, simonizor wrote:

...

On Friday, July 19, 2019 8:22:26 AM CDT, Richard Brown wrote: ...

Sorry to burst your bubble and pour cold water on your enflamed passions, but this isn't opensuse-therapy@opensuse.org

Talk about getting toxic... jesus what even is this. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* simonizor [07-19-19 10:05]:

On Friday, July 19, 2019 8:47:03 AM CDT, Richard Brown wrote:

...

...

I don't even want to read the rest of your reply after that first bit there. What you've added here is only making things worse. I don't know why you even did this. This is the exact attitude that drives people away.

please, you are only propagating a thread which should have died several days ago. if you wish to respond to this, take it private mail. please everyone, let's drop this thread. and please do not respond to this post. tks, -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 30.07.19 11:14, Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:

On Tue, 2019-07-30 at 16:59 +0800, Maurizio Galli (MauG) wrote:

...

It's now the end of the month. There are packages SR still pending review. Not sure if it's because of holidays but there has been no response from the current maintainers of MATE. I ultimately asked for project maintainer role, hoping to help speed things up Dominique can we have more time to sort this out please?

He, who asks, shall receive - or so :)

I also went ahead and granted you the maintainer role in X11:MATE:Factory. Seems the previous maintainers have gone MIA, so it's but fair for new blood to be allowed to take over.

If you want you could add me as maintainer there as well :) -- Jonathan Brielmaier SUSE Linux GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Mary Higgins, Sri Rasiah HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org