Felix, On Thursday 26 October 2006 20:54, Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

I second the font issue... Alpha 5 had beautiful font rendering, unfortunately Beta 1 is really really bad... I even tried a brand new account to see if wiping all the settings would help and it didn't. Oh and I'm using Gnome so apparently its not limited to just one environment...

On http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/Font/fonts-face-index-full.html I don't see a significant difference. I'm running 1400x1050 ATM on factory, 1600x1200 normally on 10.0. What are you guys running?

http://64.142.14.4/~rschulz/font-verdana.6-11pt.SuSE10.0.png http://64.142.14.4/~rschulz/font-verdana.6-11pt.SuSE10.2b1.png I picked Verdana for this test, though it does not show as stark a difference as some fonts I use routinely. I also had the X server act up when I went to make the 10.2b5 sample. First it started killing Firefox (2.0) and then, when I tried creating a new Firefox profile, the X server itself crashed, taking my login session with it, of course. I logged in again and was able to create the sample, but clearly there's something unstable about the 10.2b1 X software. Randall Schulz --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

I don't have an earlier screenshot, but here's how mine look now: http://www.iwamp.com/suse/10.2UglyFonts.png Its like the auto hinter has gone haywire and is adding extra thickness to the lines of the fonts or something. The lowercase u in the first firefox tab is a great example. I'm running at 1400x1050 on my laptop. 10.0 and 10.1 both looked fine, and I thought Alpha 5 looked better than ever. I've done a lot of tinkering but haven't been able to get them back. Thanks! Joel W. On 10/27/06, Felix Miata wrote:

On 06/10/26 22:30 (GMT-0700) Randall R Schulz apparently typed:

...

http://64.142.14.4/~rschulz/font-verdana.6-11pt.SuSE10.2b1.png

Object not found!

The requested URL was not found on this server. If you entered the URL manually please check your spelling and try again.

If you think this is a server error, please contact the webmaster. Error 404 64.142.14.4 Thu Oct 26 23:54:31 2006 Apache/2.0.54 (Linux/SUSE) -- "The Lord is my strength and my shield; my heart trusts in him, and I am helped." Psalm 28:7 NIV

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan, On Friday 27 October 2006 01:24, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Yes, we have a new freetype and its authors worked heavily on the auto hinter. Your bug reports are welcome at bugzilla.novell.com

Unless they can recover the previous release's quality before 10.2 final, I'm going to be very upset by this. Font rendering quality is a key characteristic for me. (It's far more important to me than, say, 3D performance, e.g.) I spend a lot of time choosing fonts and rendering options in KDE and individual applications so get optimal quality. Lowering the quality system-wide is, to me, a bad, bad thing. What motivated replacing what seemed to me to be a fine implementation?

Greetings, Stephan

Randall Schulz --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan, On Friday 27 October 2006 07:27, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Freitag, 27. Oktober 2006 16:20 schrieb Randall R Schulz:

...

What motivated replacing what seemed to me to be a fine implementation?

I bet you should subscribe to the freetype mailing list and make useful suggestions like this there? Make sure you read the arguments of those in bug#170067 first though.

Is that a SuSE FreeType list, or a global one? I've read bugs 170076 and 186109 (well, so far I've just skimmed 186109--there's a lot of information there). If I can get the old behavior by tweaking /etc/fonts/suse-hinting.conf and / or /etc/sysconfig/fonts-config, I will. If I can get the old quality by recompiling FreeType, I will (I did just that to enable the so-called "byte code interpreter" under 9.3, I think it was). I will do absolutely anything in my power to get the best possible font rendering. It is the single most important usability issue for me on any system.

Greetings, Stephan

Randall Schulz --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Mike, On Friday 27 October 2006 09:03, Mike FABIAN wrote:

Randall R Schulz さんは書きました:

...

If I can get the old behavior by tweaking /etc/fonts/suse-hinting.conf and / or /etc/sysconfig/fonts-config, I will. If I can get the old quality by recompiling FreeType, I will (I did just that to enable the so-called "byte code interpreter" under 9.3, I think it was).

If you prefer the byte code interpreter, why do you use the autohinter?

Eh? I'm reporting on a change that occurred between Alpha5 and Beta1. I didn't choose one or the other in either case. It's a degradation of quality in an installed system that was upgraded. Randall Schulz --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz さんは書きました:

Hi,

On Friday 27 October 2006 07:53, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

On Friday 27 October 2006 07:27, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

... Make sure you read the arguments of those in bug#170067 first though.

...

I've read bugs 170076 and 186109 (well, so far I've just skimmed 186109--there's a lot of information there).

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=215602 apparently addresses the same issue.

It's related, but it is not the same. Verdana has good byte code and renders excellently when the byte code interpreter is used instead of the autohinter. The Japanese IPA fonts don't have any byte code at all, when the autohinter is not used, the fonts get a blurred appearance. That is very different from the sharp appearance of Verdana when used with the byte code interpreter. -- Mike FABIAN http://www.suse.de/~mfabian 睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

"Joel Wampler" さんは書きました:

I don't have an earlier screenshot, but here's how mine look now: http://www.iwamp.com/suse/10.2UglyFonts.png

That screen shot is not directly comparable to the screen shot posted by Randall R Schulz. Randalls screen shot apparently uses sub-pixel hinting, your screen shot does not.

Its like the auto hinter has gone haywire and is adding extra thickness to the lines of the fonts or something. The lowercase u in the first firefox tab is a great example.

The autohinter of the current version of freetype does render most glyphs a lot bolder than before. I still think that is better than rendering only the diagonals very bold and all vertical and horizontal lines not bold as it was the case in SuSE 10.1 with sub-pixel hinting switched on. See http://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=170067 Anyway, most of the fonts which are discussed here (Microsoft fonts like Verdana, Agfa Fonts, Déjà Vu fonts, ...) have good TrueType byte code instructions, using the byte code interpreter for these fonts instead of the autohinter seems to produce far better results. I'll try to disable the autohinter for these fonts *if* the byte code interpreter is compiled into freetype2. Currently the byte code interpreter is compiled into our freetype2 package. -- Mike FABIAN http://www.suse.de/~mfabian 睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hi, On Thursday 26 October 2006 23:57, Felix Miata wrote:

On 06/10/26 22:30 (GMT-0700) Randall R Schulz apparently typed:

...

http://64.142.14.4/~rschulz/font-verdana.6-11pt.SuSE10.2b1.png

Object not found!

Sorry. Try now: http://64.142.14.4/~rschulz/font-verdana.6-10pt.SuSE10.0.png http://64.142.14.4/~rschulz/font-verdana.6-10pt.SuSE10.2b1.png (Note: The names changed, use these links.) Randall Schulz --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 27 October 2006 09:00, Mike FABIAN wrote:

...

...

http://64.142.14.4/~rschulz/font-verdana.6-10pt.SuSE10.0.png http://64.142.14.4/~rschulz/font-verdana.6-10pt.SuSE10.2b1.png

(Note: The names changed, use these links.)

I still get a 404 on the second URL.

Sorry. It's fixed for real, now. RRS -- P.S. Would you consider removing the Reply-To header from you list postings? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Mike, On Friday 27 October 2006 09:41, Mike FABIAN wrote:

...

The second screen shot is bolder, yes. But it is more consistent.

In your first screen shot, the 'w', 'x', and 'y' in the 11pt line are bolder than the other glyphs in that line.

I've added a snapshot of the Verdana sampler using the configuration change you suggested:

<match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="autohint" > <bool>false</bool> </edit> </match>

The complete 10.2b1 ~/.fonts.conf is: -==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==- <!-- Per suggestion from Mike Fabian --> <match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="autohint" > <bool>false</bool> </edit> </match> <match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="rgba" > <const>rgb</const> </edit> </match> <match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="hinting" > <bool>true</bool> </edit> </match> <match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="hintstyle" > <const>hintfull</const> </edit> </match> <match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="antialias" > <bool>true</bool> </edit> </match> -==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==- Here are the snapshot URLs: http://64.142.14.4/~rschulz/font-verdana.6-10pt.SuSE10.0.png http://64.142.14.4/~rschulz/font-verdana.6-10pt.SuSE10.2b1.png http://64.142.14.4/~rschulz/font-verdana.6-13pt.SuSE10.2b1+MFabian.png I've added a "sampler" page at: http://64.142.14.4/~rschulz/font-sampler.html So I will say that the 10.0 rendering is still distinctly preferable to me. The clarity and sharpness of the letterforms (in contrast to their faithfulness to the actual outlines that define them) is of paramount importance to me. Also you'll note that diagonal strokes tend to disappear with your autohint setting where they remain nicely stroked in 10.0. For the record, my 10.0 ~/.fonts.conf is: -==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==- <fontconfig> <match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="hinting" > <bool>true</bool> </edit> </match> <match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="hintstyle" > <const>hintfull</const> </edit> </match> <dir>~/.fonts</dir> <match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="rgba" > <const>rgb</const> </edit> </match> </fontconfig> -==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==- By the way, if I use this .fonts.conf on 10.2b1, the results are worse than any depicted in the sampler. Randall Schulz --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Mike, On Saturday 28 October 2006 02:34, Mike FABIAN wrote:

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...

-==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==- <!-- Per suggestion from Mike Fabian --> <match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="autohint" > <bool>false</bool> </edit> </match>

...

<match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="rgba" > <const>rgb</const> </edit> </match>

The last rule above switches on sub-pixel-hinting (rgba is set to "rgb").

But when looking at your sampler page one can see that only the SuSE 10.0 screen shot uses sub-pixel-hinting, the others do not. The reason is, that the freetype2 package currently in beta1 has disabled sub-pixel-hinting at compile time. If sub-pixel-hinting is already disabled at compile time in freetype2, it is not possible anymore to switch it on with the setup rule above.

Well, why is it compiled out? Will it be restored in the next release? Remember, in 10.2Alpha5, the results I got were indistinguishable from 10.0 and much preferred to me over what I have now. It still seems these changes are gratuitous and capricious. Randall Schulz --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz さんは書きました:

Felix,

On Thursday 26 October 2006 20:54, Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

...

I second the font issue... Alpha 5 had beautiful font rendering, unfortunately Beta 1 is really really bad... I even tried a brand new account to see if wiping all the settings would help and it didn't. Oh and I'm using Gnome so apparently its not limited to just one environment...

On http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/Font/fonts-face-index-full.html I don't see a significant difference. I'm running 1400x1050 ATM on factory, 1600x1200 normally on 10.0. What are you guys running?

http://64.142.14.4/~rschulz/font-verdana.6-11pt.SuSE10.0.png http://64.142.14.4/~rschulz/font-verdana.6-11pt.SuSE10.2b1.png

Can you please make the second screen shot available? I get error 404. -- Mike FABIAN http://www.suse.de/~mfabian 睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Felix, On Friday 27 October 2006 09:30, Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

http://64.142.14.4/~rschulz/font-verdana.6-10pt.SuSE10.0.png http://64.142.14.4/~rschulz/font-verdana.6-10pt.SuSE10.2b1.png

I picked Verdana for this test, though it does not show as stark a difference as some fonts I use routinely.

...

I find the vastly superior kerning of the latter overwhelms any other difference there might be.

For me the sharpness of the 10.0 (and 10.2Alpha5) is by far the overriding factor. I need to use small fonts when programming and in general want to get as much textual information on the screen as possible. Randall Schulz --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Mike FABIAN さんは書きました:

Randall R Schulz さんは書きました:

...

Felix,

On Friday 27 October 2006 09:30, Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

...

http://64.142.14.4/~rschulz/font-verdana.6-10pt.SuSE10.0.png http://64.142.14.4/~rschulz/font-verdana.6-10pt.SuSE10.2b1.png

I picked Verdana for this test, though it does not show as stark a difference as some fonts I use routinely.

...

I find the vastly superior kerning of the latter overwhelms any other difference there might be.

For me the sharpness of the 10.0 (and 10.2Alpha5) is by far the overriding factor. I need to use small fonts when programming and in general want to get as much textual information on the screen as possible.

Then use the byte code interpreter. The rendering with the byte code interpreter for Verdana is even sharper than your first screen shot. Really.

Most likely I will make rendering with the byte code interpreter the default for certain list of fonts where it obviously gives superior results.

To test how it looks like using the byte code interpreter, put the following in your ~/.fonts.conf file: <?xml version="1.0"?><fontconfig> [...] <match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="autohint" > <bool>false</bool> </edit> </match> [...] </fontconfig> But there are fonts (though not Verdana) which look better if the autohinter is used. Therefore switching the autohinter off always as in the above example is not a perfect solution either. -- Mike FABIAN http://www.suse.de/~mfabian 睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz さんは書きました:

Mike,

On Friday 27 October 2006 09:53, Mike FABIAN wrote:

...

...

...

Most likely I will make rendering with the byte code interpreter the default for certain list of fonts where it obviously gives superior results.

To test how it looks like using the byte code interpreter, put the following in your ~/.fonts.conf file:

<?xml version="1.0"?><fontconfig>

[...]

<match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="autohint" > <bool>false</bool> </edit> </match>

[...]

</fontconfig>

These elements existed previously (clearly created by the Fonts module of the KDE Control Center).

Yes.

Should I replace them with the ones you gave, or add your to these? If the latter, does ordering matter?

<match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="rgba" > <const>rgb</const> </edit> </match>

<match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="hinting" > <bool>true</bool> </edit> </match>

<match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="hintstyle" > <const>hintmedium</const> </edit> </match>

<match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="antialias" > <bool>true</bool> </edit> </match>

Add the elements I quoted. The order does not matter in this case (Of course you should not place them within another match rule). I.e. add the part <match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="autohint" > <bool>false</bool> </edit> </match> at any of the places I mark with * below: * * * * *

...

But there are fonts (though not Verdana) which look better if the autohinter is used. Therefore switching the autohinter off always as in the above example is not a perfect solution either.

I'm more than willing to refine the configuration as much as required. I'm a fanatic about getting fonts the way I want them (I'll refrain from saying "right," since there clearly are subjective factors in this matter).

Yes, there is a fair amount of subjectivity here. -- Mike FABIAN http://www.suse.de/~mfabian 睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz さんは書きました:

Mike,

On Friday 27 October 2006 09:53, Mike FABIAN wrote:

...

...

<?xml version="1.0"?><fontconfig>

[...]

<match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="autohint" > <bool>false</bool> </edit> </match>

[...]

</fontconfig>

When used in place of the elements that were in my ~/.fonts.conf that certainly yielded an improvement, but it's not yet as good as what I had before.

Screen shot?

I'm looking at /etc/fonts/fonts.dtd for an explanation of these elements. Is there more documentation elsewhere?

Not much, as far as I know. There are a few simple examples at http://www.suse.de/~mfabian/suse-cjk/fonts-xft-fontconfig.html It would be nice to have better documentation of course. -- Mike FABIAN http://www.suse.de/~mfabian 睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org