Sorry. I use the WeightWatchers members website. It uses Flash. It's a must have item. It's not optional at all. Steven -- ____________ Steven L Hess ARS KC6KGE DM05gd22 Skype user flamebait Cell 661 487 0357 (Facetime) Google Voice 661 769 6201 openSUSE Linux 12.1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

I have,I do and, I no longer am even close to over weight but I still rely on this website. I am an openSUSE user just like you explaining the reality of the necessity of Flash for the foreseeable future. It's too early to drop Flash support. Steven -- ____________ Steven L Hess ARS KC6KGE DM05gd22 Skype user flamebait Cell 661 487 0357 (Facetime) Google Voice 661 769 6201 openSUSE Linux 12.1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2012-04-06 at 09:41 +0200, Graham Anderson wrote:

On Friday 06 Apr 2012 00:23:17 Steven Hess wrote:

...

I have,I do and, I no longer am even close to over weight but I still rely on this website. I am an openSUSE user just like you explaining the reality of the necessity of Flash for the foreseeable future. It's too early to drop Flash support.

I sympathise because I am not a small person and I have a nasty appetite, but I disagree that this is a reason to support the flash plugin.

For as long as flash exists there will always be sites and pages that rely on using it. That alone is a poor reason to continue supporting it in it's decline.

G As long as it works, keep it. I don't want my OS being used as a social engineering tool.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2012-04-09 at 02:51 +0200, Graham Anderson wrote:

On Friday 06 Apr 2012 18:14:30 Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

As long as it works, keep it. I don't want my OS being used as a social engineering tool.

It doesn't work (flash player) and your stake in the OS can't be valuable if your argument is that open source doesn't work. So because Flash works, and isn't open-source... that means open source technologies don't work? That is not logical.

Or are you saying my opinion is invalid since you think Flash shouldn't be included because it doesn't work? SOrry to inform you, but it does work right now... and better than some things that get included in the distro. Thus, that idea is also invalid. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 4/9/2012 10:30 AM, Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

On Mon, 2012-04-09 at 02:51 +0200, Graham Anderson wrote:

...

On Friday 06 Apr 2012 18:14:30 Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

As long as it works, keep it. I don't want my OS being used as a social engineering tool.

It doesn't work (flash player) and your stake in the OS can't be valuable if your argument is that open source doesn't work. So because Flash works, and isn't open-source... that means open source technologies don't work? That is not logical.

Or are you saying my opinion is invalid since you think Flash shouldn't be included because it doesn't work? SOrry to inform you, but it does work right now... and better than some things that get included in the distro. Thus, that idea is also invalid.

Haha yeah I was thinking "Hey Graham, how about this, _you_ bring gnash up to _at least_ parity with adobe, and then offer the suggestion to abolish adobe's flash in favor of gnash, since you're the one who seems to care so much about it?"

-- bkw Now, I could agree with shipping Gnash by default so long as we do make Flash available and can make sure its understood fully by the users that

On Mon, 2012-04-09 at 16:21 -0400, Brian K. White wrote: their flash problems may be caused because they don't have the actual Flash. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar wrote:

As for the topic: Believe it or not: openSUSE is not the driver on what websites use for implementation.

Nor is it one of our objectives.

As an OS for users, openSUSE needs to provide what the user needs, and not the user use what openSUSE provides. This tactic would only work with a market share > 90%, where everybody blindly follows you.

Isn't there a large software company that works like that? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 09:18, Graham Anderson wrote:

On Friday 06 Apr 2012 00:14:29 Steven Hess wrote:

...

Sorry. I use the WeightWatchers members website. It uses Flash. It's a must have item.  It's not optional at all.

eat less problem solved

That was seriously uncalled for. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Graham Anderson wrote:

On Friday 06 Apr 2012 09:49:43 C wrote:

...

That was seriously uncalled for.

Would it be equally uncalled for if I told a smoker "don't smoke"?

If that same smoker had just informed you that he was trying to quit, yes it would be. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Steven Hess wrote:

Back to the issue at hand. It's not time to drop Flash yet. It's premature to even discuss it at this point.

Yes, let's re-start this thread when usage (on websites) has dropped to a trickle. Btw, will Flash continue to work/be supported in Chrome on Linux? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday 06 Apr 2012 04:46:58 Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar wrote:

We're discussing openSUSE development here.

Then diet or smoking shouldn't be relevent to the discussion.

Fredag den 6. april 2012 09:10:15 Graham Anderson skrev:

That "vast" portion of the web that relies on flash also usually relies on IE6 or IE7, all of these three techs are in decline and none of them should be indirectly supported by openSUSE.

openSUSE should directly support openSUSE - and that means making Adobe Flash easily available, however nasty and declining it is. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

El 06/04/12 04:53, Martin Schlander escribió:

Fredag den 6. april 2012 09:10:15 Graham Anderson skrev:

...

That "vast" portion of the web that relies on flash also usually relies on IE6 or IE7, all of these three techs are in decline and none of them should be indirectly supported by openSUSE.

openSUSE should directly support openSUSE - and that means making Adobe Flash easily available, however nasty and declining it is.

Well, it has been usually in a pitiful state, that's nothing new.. however I think we should keep it until adobe drops security support for it, then we can let it die. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday 06 Apr 2012 15:19:37 Carlos E. R. wrote:

Not true. I need flash and I need it in Firefox - not because I need it personally, but because many of the webs choose to use it. You are wrong in punishing users by removing flash from the distro: you have to remove it from the webs instead. When they stop using it, then we'll also stop using it.

You need flash because you need it and we should use it because everyone else does. Please stop being a pedant in your replies to any issue you disagree with.

If you succeed in removing flash from Linux, you will be punishing me to install Windows again. :-(

Please by all means help yourself, im so sorry for you that the only thing stopping you from using windows is that linux also has flash...

And it is not only youtube. I don't care about it. Even bank sites use flash for forms and data!

Name one single bank in any country that requires flash.

On Friday 06 Apr 2012 15:45:51 C wrote:

On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 15:35, Graham Anderson wrote:

...

On Friday 06 Apr 2012 15:19:37 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Not true. I need flash and I need it in Firefox - not because I need it personally, but because many of the webs choose to use it. You are wrong in punishing users by removing flash from the distro: you have to remove it from the webs instead. When they stop using it, then we'll also stop using it.

You need flash because you need it and we should use it because everyone else does. Please stop being a pedant in your replies to any issue you disagree with.

Why don't you stop being a pedant in your replies to any issue you disagree with. You hate Flash, yes.. fine.. but the hard reality is, it is still a requirement... for now. When the balance is tipped to move away, then yes it makes sense, but not now. It's not hard to understand that is it?

Hard reality is that flash is a requirement... Are you serious with that statement? Outside of animation and video I have never had a requirement for flash. Please tell me about your hard flash requirments... I'm all ears.

By the way, there is a tool for putting in a request like this... https://features.opensuse.org/ Open a Fate, let everyone know it's there, and put it to a vote. See what happens.

...

...

And it is not only youtube. I don't care about it. Even bank sites use flash for forms and data!

Name one single bank in any country that requires flash.

A ten second web search will turn up a long list of bank websites that require Flash (in the US... Europe... Middle East...)... some provide a "low bandwidth" HTML alternative, but not all... and I found that pretty easy.. so can you.

Oh please stop. I see a lot of home pages that might have some spinny flashy graphics, but that's always been the case. Please name one single bank that requires flash to perform actual _banking_

On Friday 06 Apr 2012 16:12:46 C wrote:

...

Please name one single bank that requires flash to perform actual banking

.... no, you go and find them yourself - your demand is actually unprovable unless you have an account with the bank.

The claim in this branch of the thread is that banking requires flash. I have nothing to prove or disprove and I have no logical need to because I have made no claims about banking and flash. If banking requires flash, please state where and why. Until this claim is backed up with verifiable who, why, where and when it's utter bullshit and should be dismissed as such.

On Friday 06 Apr 2012 15:48:33 Carlos E. R. wrote:

Please stop doing insults. Personal insults do not forward your points.

I think you didn't comprehend my message, you being a pedant was entirely my point.

Le vendredi 06 avril 2012 à 16:28 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

On 2012-04-06 16:08, Graham Anderson wrote:

...

On Friday 06 Apr 2012 15:48:33 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Please stop doing insults. Personal insults do not forward your points.

I think you didn't comprehend my message, you being a pedant was entirely my point.

And you? What are you? I will not listen more to anything you say.

Please stop, this is completely off-topic. -- Frederic Crozat SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2012-04-06 at 17:29 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2012-04-06 17:02, Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

Please stop, this is completely off-topic.

I agree, but he started, and has not apologized for insulting me.

That is irrelevant. It has to stop somewhere before moderators are forced to kick people. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-06 16:19, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2012/04/06 15:19 (GMT+0200) Carlos E. R. composed:

...

Even bank sites use flash for forms and data!

If my bank required Flash, it wouldn't be my bank any more, and I'd let it know why in no uncertain terms, without using the word "Linux".

Ha! Money knows not of such things. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk9+/WgACgkQIvFNjefEBxr0iwCg0elonUB9hXHnexLCPomX25Hu U6UAoJDvFRTov03nZ48p0XlXljDBB/I7 =Eenc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 06 Apr 2012 21:45:27 +0530, Brian K. White wrote:

On 4/6/2012 10:19 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2012/04/06 15:19 (GMT+0200) Carlos E. R. composed:

...

Even bank sites use flash for forms and data!

If my bank required Flash, it wouldn't be my bank any more, and I'd let it know why in no uncertain terms, without using the word "Linux".

What if it was the only local credit union you qualified to access? What if you hate Bank of America and Chase etc more than you hate Flash?

The choice to use a credit union vs any bank, even a small local one (which just ends up getting bought by a bigger nastier one some day) is vastly more important to your life than whether that small credit union's small IT staff inconveniently used flash on it's web site, even if they used it in some way that you have to care about instead of just a banner.

Silly discussion. Practically every restaurant web site not only uses flash but is almost 100% flash. They are restaurant. Not IT companies. They don't even know they have a problem, they are busy being good at pasta not good at web sites, and that's _entirely_ the way I'd like it, much as a better web site would be nice for me, I care more that they are good chefs.

So, when I hit google to find some place to go tonight, I want their site to work so I can at least see their address and hours and phone number. If I had the attitude that the use of flash on their web site mattered _at all_ then I'd miss out on their excellent food and atmosphere and lake side view and other patrons etc etc etc...

There are other restaurants, but choosing a restaurant by the quality of their web site is stupid.

Same for the auto mechanic. Same for the picture framer. Same for everything.

It's really quite stupid to let a thing like that get in the way of your real life.

+1 technology is supposed to help with life, not replace or direct it. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 4/6/2012 12:54 PM, Andrew Wafaa wrote:

On Fri, 2012-04-06 at 21:50 +0530, phanisvara das wrote:

...

On Fri, 06 Apr 2012 21:45:27 +0530, Brian K. White wrote:

...

On 4/6/2012 10:19 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2012/04/06 15:19 (GMT+0200) Carlos E. R. composed:

...

Even bank sites use flash for forms and data!

If my bank required Flash, it wouldn't be my bank any more, and I'd let it know why in no uncertain terms, without using the word "Linux".

What if it was the only local credit union you qualified to access? What if you hate Bank of America and Chase etc more than you hate Flash?

The choice to use a credit union vs any bank, even a small local one (which just ends up getting bought by a bigger nastier one some day) is vastly more important to your life than whether that small credit union's small IT staff inconveniently used flash on it's web site, even if they used it in some way that you have to care about instead of just a banner.

Silly discussion. Practically every restaurant web site not only uses flash but is almost 100% flash. They are restaurant. Not IT companies. They don't even know they have a problem, they are busy being good at pasta not good at web sites, and that's _entirely_ the way I'd like it, much as a better web site would be nice for me, I care more that they are good chefs.

So, when I hit google to find some place to go tonight, I want their site to work so I can at least see their address and hours and phone number. If I had the attitude that the use of flash on their web site mattered _at all_ then I'd miss out on their excellent food and atmosphere and lake side view and other patrons etc etc etc...

There are other restaurants, but choosing a restaurant by the quality of their web site is stupid.

Same for the auto mechanic. Same for the picture framer. Same for everything.

It's really quite stupid to let a thing like that get in the way of your real life.

+1

technology is supposed to help with life, not replace or direct it.

-- phani.

People,

Please stay focused on the topic at hand. Drifting into insults and other non-topic related items is pointless and just creates nothing but noise.

The topic here is whether to continue shipping the official Adobe flash plugin or not. If people feel discussions need to be continued, stay on topic giving valid reasons without getting righteous or similar. There is a *ZERO* tolerance policy for abuse, it doesn't matter who started it - just STOP IT, NOW!

If you are a flash hater, good for you. Many other people don't mind it, some like it, others just get on with it as it is needed to continue their day. Leave the philosophical and holier than thou rants at the door, they have no place here. This list is about the future direction of openSUSE's distribution and is generally of a more technical nature, so please keep this in mind and stick to it.

The openSUSE Board have had way too many complaints from both members and non-members about the signal to noise ratio being unacceptable on several mailing lists, and as such we will be taking stronger action against perpetrators of improper actions. Also it is every person's duty to ensure that our peers stay on track and keep the mailing lists clear of nonsense.

On behalf of the openSUSE Board,

Andy

In what way did _your_ post stay on topic? You only talked about other talkers and not about the question of continuing to include flash or not at all. You post was the most "noise" to me. Yet the post you replied to was _all_ about reasons why it's counter productive to consider removing Flash at this time because of the reality that too many of the resources on internet require it. How else can you decide that perfectly "technical" item affecting "the future direction of openSUSE's distribution" ? These _are_ the pro's & cons that need to be pointed out in order to justify either keeping it or dropping it. Frankly Graham's points are perfectly valid as far as they go. So if there are counter points, of course they must be illustrated in order to decide correctly which way to go. Now back to the topic in a more "technical nature" , I would also point out that there are other options besides keep Adobe Flash or drop Adobe Flash. Investing work in improving gnash or other flash implementations is also an option to provide some level of web site coverage without necessarily being dependent on Adobe's actions. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 07.04.2012 03:36, schrieb Bryen M Yunashko:

Now back to the main topic of this thread...

Actually I prepared a long post on-topic of this thread but threw it away as I noticed that everything has been said already. I try to sum up what I understood now. I've seen no single convincing argument why it's better for openSUSE and our users to drop the Flash plugin now. Graham's proposal had no real argument for it besides things like - Adobe abandoned it (partly true) - Flash is crap (always has been true) - Flash is a security mess (always has been true) (but it's a 3rd-party vendor promising security updates for another 5 years) - Apple dropped it already which are no arguments why we should drop it at this moment IMHO. It's absolutely unrealistic that our decision will have any impact on the web so it's not even a political decision to force the web to do something (as opposed to Apple's weight). Flash will die over the next years. Let's get rid of it when it's time but not now. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 07 Apr 2012 12:35:17 +0530, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

... Actually I prepared a long post on-topic of this thread but threw it away as I noticed that everything has been said already. I try to sum up what I understood now.

I've seen no single convincing argument why it's better for openSUSE and our users to drop the Flash plugin now. Graham's proposal had no real argument for it besides things like - Adobe abandoned it (partly true) - Flash is crap (always has been true) - Flash is a security mess (always has been true) (but it's a 3rd-party vendor promising security updates for another 5 years) - Apple dropped it already which are no arguments why we should drop it at this moment IMHO.

It's absolutely unrealistic that our decision will have any impact on the web so it's not even a political decision to force the web to do something (as opposed to Apple's weight). Flash will die over the next years. Let's get rid of it when it's time but not now.

exactly; it's not a distro's business to force their users to become better cyber-citizens, or better human beings even. present reality is that many don't want to live without flash, perhaps even can't, and openSUSE should make it possible for them to achieve that. doesn't matter if the flash plugin comes from an external repo or one of the core ones; everybody uses codecs from packman after all, and those are (at least legally) tainted and not strictly necessary either. once it becomes known that due to flash many openSUSE machines are getting infected, that would be different, but i haven't seen that yet. it's always been known as a resource hog & security risk, but that hasn't stopped many from using it. education is great, and so would be work on flash alternatives if there's any hope for success. in the longer term flash will go away, and unless there's a large new security hole, openSUSE should just wait it out and follow the needs of their users. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/04/06 12:15 (GMT-0400) Brian K. White composed:

Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2012/04/06 15:19 (GMT+0200) Carlos E. R. composed:

...

...

Even bank sites use flash for forms and data!

...

If my bank required Flash, it wouldn't be my bank any more, and I'd let it know why in no uncertain terms, without using the word "Linux".

What if it was the only local credit union you qualified to access?

Telephone, if local was truly requisite.

What if you hate Bank of America and Chase etc more than you hate Flash?

FNBO, HSBC, ING, TD Ameritrade, eTrade, State Farm, Wells Fargo, Regions, Republic, SunTrust, yada yada yada? Even without Flash banks are expert at creating miserable to use sites. :-( http://fm.no-ip.com/Inet/shame.html

The choice to use a credit union vs any bank, even a small local one (which just ends up getting bought by a bigger nastier one some day) is vastly more important to your life than whether that small credit union's small IT staff inconveniently used flash on it's web site, even if they used it in some way that you have to care about instead of just a banner.

If truly a local institution, no web site needed. However, if truly local, it's probably small, and capable of being explained to about the horrors of an inaccessible or requiring of non-FOSS software web site. Local, except for those who don't use the web, is passe. Local is about people and service. That requires walking in, conversing, and shaking hands, not web site bling.

Silly discussion. Practically every restaurant web site not only uses flash but is almost 100% flash. They are restaurant. Not IT companies. They don't even know they have a problem, they are busy being good at pasta not good at web sites, and that's _entirely_ the way I'd like it, much as a better web site would be nice for me, I care more that they are good chefs.

I don't eat at restaurants. I don't use the web for entertainment's sake. The limited size of a computer screen is incapable of a large enough quantity of visual imagery to be anything other than bling. I do use the web for locating information. When I want to be entertained I turn on the TV, which is big enough to be entertaining. Bling obfuscates information, so of the 6 web browsers I run 24/7, only one has Flash installed, and that one gets used the least in the interest of minimizing the frustrations of inaccessibility. 4 of the other 5 are HTML5 capable, and I haven't yet figured out a simple way to avoid the bling that gets through in those.

So, when I hit google to find some place to go tonight, I want their site to work so I can at least see their address and hours and phone number. If I had the attitude that the use of flash on their web site mattered _at all_ then I'd miss out on their excellent food and atmosphere and lake side view and other patrons etc etc etc...

Any business that seriously wants maximum value from its web site maximizes accessibility. Few that have done so include accessible Flash, which is a virtual oxymoron. A business whose web site can't provide basic information without Flash doesn't expect to draw those who depend on accessibility or iPads as customers.

There are other restaurants, but choosing a restaurant by the quality of their web site is stupid.

[OT] A web site (a business, probably a proprietorship or corporation, one thing, it) -> its web site. No "they".

Same for the auto mechanic. Same for the picture framer. Same for everything.

Choosing a seamstress, mechanic, roofer, physician, attorney or CPA based upon web site bling is stupid.

It's really quite stupid to let a thing like that get in the way of your real life.

A11Y. With Flash, inaccessibility is king. Web site inaccessibility gets in the way daily for too many people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_accessibility https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=78414 (filed nearly 11 years ago) -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday 06 Apr 2012 08:32:58 Bruno Friedmann wrote:

Unfortunately, a big number of users, need this infamous plugin to work. And again, no luck to have a free alternative.

In a few years ~2015/2016 html5/css3 will have replace it at 98% in popular website and perhaps 50% of application developed with flash will have change their technology.

Let the plugin live in some external repo. If users would like to use it they can just use their own good judgement ;) and install it from the community repo. Frankly flash plugin is an abomnination and now we understand that it's no longer supported by Adobe it's the perfect time to drop it. Flash plugin is buggy, full of security holes, inefficient and bloated. Lets treat it like we should treat any old unsupported software - remove it from the distro.

On 04/06/2012 09:57 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:

Fredag den 6. april 2012 09:16:51 Graham Anderson skrev:

...

Frankly flash plugin is an abomnination and now we understand that it's no longer supported by Adobe it's the perfect time to drop it. I believe they said they'll provide security updates for another five years. That's right, see: http://blogs.adobe.com/flashplayer/2012/02/adobe-and-google-partnering-for-f... Bye, CzP -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/06/2012 02:29 AM, Graham Anderson wrote:

On Friday 06 Apr 2012 09:57:16 Martin Schlander wrote:

...

I believe they said they'll provide security updates for another five years. So what do we do inbetween the 6 month periods of no fixes?

I don't trust them! They have already announced they won't fix the blue-face bug in the current Flash version! We'll see five-years of security updates when pigs fly. Also, IANAL, but are there any liabilities associated with knowingly distributing software with security problems? Just wondering... I don't know what the answer is here, but it's always dangerous to hang hats on proprietary software. Could it be that a certain large software company paid Adobe to drop Linux support? That so much of the Web relies on proprietary software is a true travesty! Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

I despise Flash. It's a security vulnerability and a resource hog. Having said that, at this time, it is not realistic to stop supporting Flash. Even Adobe and Google will continue supporting Flash for a while. I think you saw this article; http://www.unixmen.com/bye-bye-flash-for-linux/ or something like it. But even this is a few years off. Dropping Flash would be premature. On Fri, 2012-04-06 at 08:32 +0200, Bruno Friedmann wrote:

On Friday 06 April 2012 08.11:52 Graham Anderson wrote:

...

List,

I would like to ask your thoughts on how we use and offer the flash plugin.

Clearly Adobe are no longer willing to support Linux as an OS. Persuant to this I propose we drop the flash plugin option entirely; by this I mean that none of our installation options should suggest flash plugin.

Furthermore, I think that flash plugin should not be offered as an additional repository or installation option.

Cheers the noo, Graham

Politically, and by philosophy I would say yes to that. But on this topic, we should be the last to do that.

Once all distribution around have drop Adobe Flash plugin, then yes remove it.

Unfortunately, a big number of users, need this infamous plugin to work. And again, no luck to have a free alternative.

In a few years ~2015/2016 html5/css3 will have replace it at 98% in popular website and perhaps 50% of application developed with flash will have change their technology.

From what I've read, Adobe doesn't continue themselves to maintain flash under Linux and give that to Google, who want it inside Chrome.

-- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch

openSUSE Member & Ambassador GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2012-04-06 08:32, Bruno Friedmann wrote:

...

From what I've read, Adobe doesn't continue themselves to maintain flash under Linux and give that to Google, who want it inside Chrome.

Will they remove support only from Linux, or will the support be removed also from Windows?

Flash never made it onto the iPhone (nor iPad?). That is a significant issue that is causing web page redesigns as we speak as I understand. So the proposal in a sense is to follow Apple's lead. I think it is premature to do, but not ridiculous to discuss. If people use websites with flash only interfaces, they should be able to contact the web admins and ask when they will drop it since Apple already has and even Adobe is recommending sites quit using it.. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 06.04.2012 11:56, schrieb Robert Kaiser:

For one thing, Adobe just released a new version of Flash for Linux. Even if

Which is worse than the previous version because it broke every nvidia system!

that's the last "major" update they said they'll deliver, they haven't abandoned "us" yet. Also, they promised security updates for 11.2 Linux to be made for

they promised security updates but apparently they introduce more and more regression they publically claim not to fix?

years to come, so it's not like we'd make users more insecure than before.

People are already rolling back to 11.1 to make it usable ignoring the security issues. All that concerns me a lot!

(And, just as a reminder, Google will support Flash for Chrome even with new versions, as they have full access to Flash source code, but as Google has created their own non-standard "pepper" plugin API and is using that in this version of Flash, it doesn't work with any non-Chrome browser - and it's delivered as a part of Chrome anyhow.)

Yes, so this part is extremely contra productive since this is Chrome only which no Linux distro can ship anyway (AFAIK) and Chromium does not have that feature. So all the above are no arguments since reality shows Adobe already abandoned all Linux/nvidia users (more or less).

As much as I dislike Flash (esp. as someone looking at Firefox crash reports all day, including a lot of them from Flash plugin processes), I agree with others in this thread that it's premature to cut openSUSE users off Flash completely. The time will come when we can exclude it from default patterns, the time to exclude it from optional non-free repositories will come still a lot later. Let's not transform our dislike for a technology to a problem for our users.

I agree that we cannot kill the Flash plugin right now as much as I wanted it to happen. It makes me angry how much Adobe pisses off Linux users and non-Chrome users at the moment as this makes Linux look like a even worse desktop system and especially to you as a "Mozilla guy" this will most likely decrease Firefox and SeaMonkey usage on Linux even more as people have to switch to Chrome if they want proper Flash support. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 13:02, phanisvara das wrote:

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Which is worse than the previous version because it broke every nvidia system!

ahem, not _every_ nvidia system; mine works fine still. probably depends on the card (GT430, in my case).

Do you have Hardware Acceleration enabled? If you enable it, it will swap the red and blue channels making everyone look like a Smurf. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 06 Apr 2012 16:47:05 +0530, C wrote:

On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 13:02, phanisvara das wrote:

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Which is worse than the previous version because it broke every nvidia system!

ahem, not _every_ nvidia system; mine works fine still. probably depends on the card (GT430, in my case).

Do you have Hardware Acceleration enabled? If you enable it, it will swap the red and blue channels making everyone look like a Smurf.

C.

oh my, i should have checked before i replied. always thought i had HW acceleration enabled, but actually didn't. enabling it i see that 'smurf,' too :( -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 06 Apr 2012 19:10:21 +0530, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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oh my, i should have checked before i replied. always thought i had HW acceleration enabled, but actually didn't. enabling it i see that 'smurf,' too

You are right... so we have to go back a flash version!

not really; i don't use flash a lot and think i can manage w/o HW acceleration. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 15:50, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2012-04-06 15:47, phanisvara das wrote:

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On Fri, 06 Apr 2012 19:10:21 +0530, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:

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not really; i don't use flash a lot and think i can manage w/o HW acceleration.

I don't watch videos often, but some sites I need use flash forms. If colours change on a form it is not important, though.

It is only really noticeable in videos. Simply going into the options and disabling hardware acceleration will "fix" it. Generally you won't notice the difference with it disabled. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Wolfgang Rosenauer schrieb:

Am 06.04.2012 11:56, schrieb Robert Kaiser:

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For one thing, Adobe just released a new version of Flash for Linux. Even if

Which is worse than the previous version because it broke every nvidia system!

Wow, didn't know that. I would guess that they are still interested in providing a fix for that. When software developers say "maintained for security", that usually includes stability and bad-regression fixes, and this surely falls in that category. I hope Adobe has been contacted on this.

People are already rolling back to 11.1 to make it usable ignoring the security issues. All that concerns me a lot!

Yes, people downgrading to insecure versions always bothers me as well, I'm currently seeing a lot of concerning stuff around the Java security issues and Mozilla blocking versions where an exploit exists in the wild. Stuff like "but we need to continue using Firefox 3.0.10 and java 1.6.0.13" - https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=739955#c69 - makes me shiver.

I agree that we cannot kill the Flash plugin right now as much as I wanted it to happen. It makes me angry how much Adobe pisses off Linux users and non-Chrome users at the moment as this makes Linux look like a even worse desktop system and especially to you as a "Mozilla guy" this will most likely decrease Firefox and SeaMonkey usage on Linux even more as people have to switch to Chrome if they want proper Flash support.

I don't think it actually will make a serious dent into Firefox usage, esp. given that the not-really-open incomplete-code-drop-over-the-wall Chromium doesn't fare better and Chrome is not an option for anyone believing in Free Software (or for the defaults of distros). The real goal needs to be to make Flash obsolete and unneeded and work for openness, innovation and opportunities on the web - for everyone. Thankfully, that's the Mozilla mission. :) Robert Kaiser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 13:55, Robert Kaiser wrote:

...

...

For one thing, Adobe just released a new version of Flash for Linux. Even if

Which is worse than the previous version because it broke every nvidia system!

Wow, didn't know that. I would guess that they are still interested in providing a fix for that. When software developers say "maintained for security", that usually includes stability and bad-regression fixes, and this surely falls in that category. I hope Adobe has been contacted on this.

See my post on this on the openSUSE User mailing list. Basically they know about it... there are a stack of bugs open on it with Adobe and they are closing them as they are opened stating they are no longer supporting Flash on Linux post 11.2 (nevermind that this is a well known bug in 11.2 which was there all through the Beta cycles). C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Graham Anderson wrote:

On Friday 06 Apr 2012 12:44:14 Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

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I agree that we cannot kill the Flash plugin right now as much as I wanted it to happen. It makes me angry how much Adobe pisses off Linux users and non-Chrome users at the moment as this makes Linux look like a even worse desktop system and especially to you as a "Mozilla guy" this will most likely decrease Firefox and SeaMonkey usage on Linux even more as people have to switch to Chrome if they want proper Flash support.

I really disagrree with this. There should be no pandering to incumbent and deprecated technologies. The sentiment "its bad but we have to put up with it" makes my skin crawl. Flash was only tolerated because it was the easiest way to get a video decoder into the browser. That has changed.

Linux is moving most markets right now, except the desktop, desktop Linux is not in the same league as server, mobile and embeded. There will be nothing to gain from shackeling our desktops to such things as Flash (which everyone including Adobe are leaving behind anyway).

Really, we win _nothing_ by continuing to support flash.

That is no doubt correct, but we might very well _lose_ a lot (of users). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Graham Anderson wrote:

On Friday 06 Apr 2012 14:29:35 Per Jessen wrote:

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Graham Anderson wrote:

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On Friday 06 Apr 2012 12:44:14 Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

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I agree that we cannot kill the Flash plugin right now as much as I wanted it to happen. It makes me angry how much Adobe pisses off Linux users and non-Chrome users at the moment as this makes Linux look like a even worse desktop system and especially to you as a "Mozilla guy" this will most likely decrease Firefox and SeaMonkey usage on Linux even more as people have to switch to Chrome if they want proper Flash support.

I really disagrree with this. There should be no pandering to incumbent and deprecated technologies. The sentiment "its bad but we have to put up with it" makes my skin crawl. Flash was only tolerated because it was the easiest way to get a video decoder into the browser. That has changed.

Linux is moving most markets right now, except the desktop, desktop Linux is not in the same league as server, mobile and embeded. There will be nothing to gain from shackeling our desktops to such things as Flash (which everyone including Adobe are leaving behind anyway).

Really, we win _nothing_ by continuing to support flash.

That is no doubt correct, but we might very well _lose_ a lot (of users).

Do you mean in the sense of "no flash will use something else" or "these guys don't support flash, wtf not going to use that?" or something else?

Mostly the first one.

I ask because one of the platforms that users love and rant about doesn't use flash as a matter of its engineering policy.

My son doesn't give a toss about engineering policies :-) - he doesn't know what a distro is either, but if his PC won't play youtube videos and miniclip games, he'll go somewhere else. Probably to Windows. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday 06 Apr 2012 08:46:54 Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

Including new users of openSuSE!

I don't see any evidence to suggest we are getting new users doing what we have been doing for the past 3 years of release cycles. So yeah, lets keep pandering to the existing users who scream "DONT CHANGE ME" and lets see where we are in 5 years.

BBC web site requires it for sound / video. Andy -----Original Message----- From: Anders Johansson To: opensuse-factory Sent: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 17:06 Subject: Re: [opensuse-factory] Adobe flash plugin On Friday 06 April 2012 08:11:52 Graham Anderson wrote:> List,> > I would like to ask your thoughts on how we use and offer the flash plugin.> > Clearly Adobe are no longer willing to support Linux as an OS. Persuant to> this I propose we drop the flash plugin option entirely; by this I mean that> none of our installation options should suggest flash plugin.> > Furthermore, I think that flash plugin should not be offered as an> additional repository or installation option.Strongly disagree, some of the sites I frequent daily and couldn't live without require flash. This is true for many of my not-very-tech-savvy friends as well, who would never consider an option that did not provide flash. We want to keep openSUSE the easiest OS to work withAnders-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.orgTo contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org