On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 at 11:12, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am 11.01.19 um 21:36 schrieb Maximilian Trummer:

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I noticed that openSUSE will always set the locale to de_DE, even if you set Europe - Austria as region during install. de_AT exists as a locale, so why isn't that picked instead? I haven't tested it myself but it's probably set to de_DE as well for German- speaking Switzerland. Is there a reason behind this or is it an oversight?

What you set as region is your timezone not the locale - the settings are not related. That's the reason.

The settings are somewhat related. If you pick language English (UK) you get your keyboard layout by default selected as English (UK) and your presumed location/timezone set to Europe/London We do the same with Traditional / Simplified Chinese also. Right now as we only offer "German - Deutsch" in the menu, every German speaker gets Tastaturbelegung set to Deutsch, and their presumed location/timezone as Europe/Berlin It does lead to the question - why doesn't our install offer the locales German (German) | (Austrian) | (Swiss) the same way we offer English (UK) and English (US)? Presumably we could have Germany (DE), German (AT), and German (CH) in the language drop-down on the Welcome Screen. For DE and AT I assume that would set the default keyboard layout to the standard "Deutsch" that it does now - I'm not aware of Austrian keyboards being different from German ones. But for CH we could set it to "Deutsch (Schweiz)" that currently needs to be manually selected, but presumably are more common in Switzerland (can someone confirm?) And in all 3 cases, the default timezone/location could be selected to be a more likely accurate than the current "Europe/Berlin fur alles!" approach I can see how Swiss and Austrian users might like it..it would annoy me if there was only one English option and I was always presumed to be American by YaST. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 at 17:25, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 12/01/2019 17.00, Richard Brown wrote:

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On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 at 11:12, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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Am 11.01.19 um 21:36 schrieb Maximilian Trummer:

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It does lead to the question - why doesn't our install offer the locales German (German) | (Austrian) | (Swiss) the same way we offer English (UK) and English (US)?

At installation time there is a map, and we typically choose our country. I assumed that this phase selected both country-language and timezone.

It does not - that map only sets the timezone. You're expected to click on the map to select the timezone if the suggested timezone is incorrect (which is informed by the langauge you picked on the first screen in the installer) We never ask users the same thing twice. Any other functionality in the map nor changing the order of the questions asked wouldn't really make much sense - you need to pick your Language and Keyboard layout on the first screen - so you can read our license and so YaST can accept your keyboard inputs correctly Getting your timezone/location correct is something which YaST doesn't need to get right to be able to continue with the installation, but we do need to give users an opportunity to correct it before they install, hence the map. Any idea of putting the map first doesn't make much sense to me - I may be in Germany, but I don't want German as my language on openSUSE. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 at 19:03, Per Jessen wrote:

Richard Brown wrote:

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Any idea of putting the map first doesn't make much sense to me - I may be in Germany, but I don't want German as my language on openSUSE.

Which is almost certainly an exception rather than the rule, so perhaps not the situation to set the default by.

Indeed, but also the topic of changing the default behaviour isn't the topic at hand..so lets steer the discussion back to the OP's original question Why isn't there strong support for regional de_* locales the same way there are for en_* and cn_* locales in openSUSE? I don't see why the needs of Austrian and Swiss users can't be met by the similar solutions we already have in place for Americans, Brits, Mainland Chinese and Taiwanese Chinese. Does anyone see a problem with applying that approach? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jan 12, 2019 at 7:02 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Richard Brown wrote:

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Any idea of putting the map first doesn't make much sense to me - I may be in Germany, but I don't want German as my language on openSUSE.

Which is almost certainly an exception rather than the rule, so perhaps not the situation to set the default by.

I don't change language settings on installation, as long as I understand the default language, I will keep the default (also polish keyboard is basically US keyboard but with alt modifier having some additional characters which are interchangable with standard US keyboard characters so I don't even bother changing keyboard). I'm not in New York (same for >80% of US population). Maybe we could get location from user's network (which is a common practice nowadays). LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown wrote:

On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 at 19:15, wrote:

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I don't change language settings on installation, as long as I understand the default language, I will keep the default (also polish keyboard is basically US keyboard but with alt modifier having some additional characters which are interchangable with standard US keyboard characters so I don't even bother changing keyboard). I'm not in New York (same for >80% of US population). Maybe we could get location from user's network (which is a common practice nowadays).

Assuming we can put the appropriate geolocation libraries and database on the installation media without things getting out of hand, I think this isn't a bad feature request.

We could offer this as a service instead, when/if an internet connection is available - http://geoip.jessen.ch/ - gives you the country code for the requestor's IP address. Is easy to set up on one of our public servers. (mirrorbrain has the info anyway). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (3.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/01/2019 19.25, Karl Sinn wrote:

Am 12.01.19 um 19:15 schrieb hellcp@opensuse.org:

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On Sat, Jan 12, 2019 at 7:02 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

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Richard Brown wrote:

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 Any idea of putting the map first doesn't make much sense to me - I  may be in Germany, but I don't want German as my language on openSUSE.

Which is almost certainly an exception rather than the rule, so perhaps not the situation to set the default by.

I don't change language settings on installation, as long as I understand the default language, I will keep the default (also polish keyboard is basically US keyboard but with alt modifier having some additional characters which are interchangable with standard US keyboard characters so I don't even bother changing keyboard). I'm not in New York (same for >80% of US population). Maybe we could get location from user's network (which is a common practice nowadays).

LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world

oh no!!, please not that. Let's not go the way that the system knows better than the user.

Geolocation could be used to automatically propose the user a setting that is better suited that somewhere in USA for everybody as done now. Then click on the map to choose the correct country if the guess was wrong. I understand that the map currently is used only for the timezone, but why not use it for more?

Anyway, I'm wondering. AFAIK one can change the keyboard settings during installation. It should be possible there to change to Austrian.

During installation I click on Spain, which gives me the Madrid time zone, then select Spanish keyboard and EN language as default, with Spanish as secondary language. It is easy to customize. If not the map, it could be a list of choices: language and countries taken from the list of available locales. Or directly list the entire list of locales, expanding on the side what EN_uk means. This list is longer to browse, but less error prone to code. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 12/01/2019 17.53, Richard Brown wrote:

On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 at 17:25, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 12/01/2019 17.00, Richard Brown wrote:

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On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 at 11:12, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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Am 11.01.19 um 21:36 schrieb Maximilian Trummer:

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It does lead to the question - why doesn't our install offer the locales German (German) | (Austrian) | (Swiss) the same way we offer English (UK) and English (US)?

At installation time there is a map, and we typically choose our country. I assumed that this phase selected both country-language and timezone.

It does not - that map only sets the timezone. You're expected to click on the map to select the timezone if the suggested timezone is incorrect (which is informed by the langauge you picked on the first screen in the installer)

We never ask users the same thing twice. Any other functionality in the map nor changing the order of the questions asked wouldn't really make much sense - you need to pick your Language and Keyboard layout on the first screen - so you can read our license and so YaST can accept your keyboard inputs correctly

Getting your timezone/location correct is something which YaST doesn't need to get right to be able to continue with the installation, but we do need to give users an opportunity to correct it before they install, hence the map.

Any idea of putting the map first doesn't make much sense to me - I may be in Germany, but I don't want German as my language on openSUSE.

Ok, then: first ask language and keyboard, add another box for possible countries given that selection. Or guess the country on next screen from the map. Or ask country after asking for timezone... Whatever work best, the combinations of countries/languages is limited by the existing locales. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

As far as I can tell currently there is no place in SUSE installer where locale used by installed system can be adjusted

Potentially leaving the user with confusing date formats (day and month swapped) and number formats, and a foreign currency as the default currency. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 12. Januar 2019, 17:00:04 CET schrieb Richard Brown:

On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 at 11:12, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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Am 11.01.19 um 21:36 schrieb Maximilian Trummer:

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I noticed that openSUSE will always set the locale to de_DE, even if you set Europe - Austria as region during install. de_AT exists as a locale, so why isn't that picked instead? I haven't tested it myself but it's probably set to de_DE as well for German- speaking Switzerland. Is there a reason behind this or is it an oversight?

What you set as region is your timezone not the locale - the settings are not related. That's the reason.

(snip)

It does lead to the question - why doesn't our install offer the locales German (German) | (Austrian) | (Swiss) the same way we offer English (UK) and English (US)?

Presumably we could have Germany (DE), German (AT), and German (CH) in the language drop-down on the Welcome Screen.

For DE and AT I assume that would set the default keyboard layout to the standard "Deutsch" that it does now - I'm not aware of Austrian keyboards being different from German ones.

Yes, I also think German and Austrian keyboards are the same; it's other things like names of months and number/currency formats that make the difference. Here's what the KDE System Settings dialog shows as examples: *de_DE* Zahlen: 1.000,01 Zeit: Sonntag, 13. Januar 2019 19:29:00 CET (Langformat) 13.01.19 19:29 (Kurzformat) Währung: 24,00 € Maßsystem: Metrisch *de_AT* Zahlen: 1 000,01 Zeit: Sonntag, 13. Jänner 2019 19:29:00 CET (Langformat) 13.01.19 19:29 (Kurzformat) Währung: € 24,00 Maßsystem: Metrisch *de_CH* Zahlen: 1'000.01 Zeit: Sonntag, 13. Januar 2019 19:29:00 CET (Langformat) 13.01.19 19:29 (Kurzformat) Währung: CHF 24,00 Maßsystem: Metrisch The digit grouping is different in each of them. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 14. Januar 2019, 11:19:59 CET schrieb Bruno Friedmann:

And also note that Währung should be Währung: CHF 24.00 for de_CH as point is the decimal separator ... The funky things come when you compare fr_CH with de_CH in fr_CH you will have Numbers : 1 000,01 Currency: 24,00 CHF

Obviously all people in CH have the numbers/currency normally set the same ;-)

Yes indeed, thanks for this correction. I couldn't copy the text from the dialog so I typed it manually and this mistake slipped in. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown schrieb:

On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 at 11:12, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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Am 11.01.19 um 21:36 schrieb Maximilian Trummer:

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I noticed that openSUSE will always set the locale to de_DE, even if you set Europe - Austria as region during install. de_AT exists as a locale, so why isn't that picked instead? I haven't tested it myself but it's probably set to de_DE as well for German- speaking Switzerland. Is there a reason behind this or is it an oversight?

What you set as region is your timezone not the locale - the settings are not related. That's the reason.

The settings are somewhat related. If you pick language English (UK) you get your keyboard layout by default selected as English (UK) and your presumed location/timezone set to Europe/London We do the same with Traditional / Simplified Chinese also.

Right now as we only offer "German - Deutsch" in the menu, every German speaker gets Tastaturbelegung set to Deutsch, and their presumed location/timezone as Europe/Berlin

It does lead to the question - why doesn't our install offer the locales German (German) | (Austrian) | (Swiss) the same way we offer English (UK) and English (US)?

I looked into the topic for different reasons the other day. Adding Austria there is probably easy but that is just the tip of the iceberg. Instead of arguing whether or not to add this or that region to YaST it would make sense to get YaST to use the same database as Fedora https://github.com/mike-fabian/langtable. That one is way more complete and actually is actively maintained. I've filed a feature request for that already (fate#327107 for those who have access). That database also already contains the information needed for setting the locale based on geographic location. Besides the more complete database the Fedora installer has more goodies, for example it also allows to dynamically switch keyboard layouts in the installer at any point in time. So one can still enter eg the root password using latin characters with US layout even though the system gets installed with a different keyboard layout by default. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.com/ SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org