subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

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Andreas Jaeger

27 Jan 27 Jan

06:07

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

houghi writes:

...

Hello all,

During the IRC meeting from 2006-01-24 it was announced that subfs has been dropped. IRC log and minutes can be found at http://www.opensuse.org/2006-01-24-status-meeting and the timestap for the subfs issue begins at 19:47

From the minutes: - subfs has been dropped and will be replaced by hal plus gnome-volume-manager (under GNOME) and some binary for KDE. non-KDE and non-GNOME users have to mount manually. They cant even put a line into /etc/fstab, so that a user can mount it.

And that was an error on my part, adding a line to /etc/fstab is possible but we prefer to not do it and let the automatics work - users can add it.

...

There was a consens that this is unacceptable. Action Item houghi: - start discussion about subfs replacement in non KDE/GNOME systems on opensuse-factory

Questions that arise: - Should this be accepted or should it be delayed till a complete solution is given? - As the question came from an FAQ about having subfs disables, is there perhaps a better solution for everybody. Easy disableling subfs for those who want it and enabled for those who want that. - What are the implications of reversing the decision? What are the implications of going on as it is?

Any other solutions or comments are welcome as well. Also bear in mind that some people might login over ssh and do not even have a windowmanager.

Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Volker Kuhlmann

11:04

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

...

...
- subfs has been dropped and will be replaced by hal plus gnome-volume-manager (under GNOME) and some binary for KDE. non-KDE and non-GNOME users have to mount manually. They cant even put a line into /etc/fstab, so that a user can mount it.

And that was an error on my part, adding a line to /etc/fstab is possible but we prefer to not do it and let the automatics work - users can add it.

Oh good, I was about to make an exasperated post... I don't actually know what's so bad about subfs. I do know that not being able to change mount options in 10.0 is <censored>, but that's hardly due to subfs. Good things in 10.0: plug n go in less than 10 seconds, usually less than 5. Perfect. This includes inserted CDs/DVDs - good. I don't want to have to mount disks, one less thing to have to explain to $RELATIVE. Perfect. Come to think of it, I don't want to have to mount my flashcards either, thank you very much. I don't see the point of being bothered with having to mount *any* removable media manually. I've been selling SUSE with "hey mounting is a thing of the past, that all goes automagic now, no need to even think about it". People love that. Issues: 1) sync with flash cards. With sync, it's unusably slow, without sync, it's unusably dangerous. Either way, it's unusable. Solution three is needed please. How about calling sync on the filesystem every second? Keeps the block buffer use down and hardly slows down the writing, flash memory is slow enough anyway. 2) Mount options. Just who had this rotten idea of mounting files on vfat flash 755? Whatever, I want to fix that. On 10.0, it cost me half a day and a lot of expletives which didn't go into an email. Please, mount options come from /etc/fstab, not from some convert-everything-to-bloody-xml-and-read-manual-for-hours disease a la *.fdi or some hald-subfs-mount crap. Actually, a half-as-braindead hald-subfs-mount would fix it: first, actually read the variables set by hald and documented in the hald docs instead of graciously ignoring them, second, complement/overwrite them with what's in /etc/fstab, in that order, so fstab has precedence. If some default is used without any entry in /etc/fstab, that's fine by me, but can you make it something sane please, like including nosuid,nodev,noexec,fmask=137,dmask=027 ? I need to change mount options for DVDs too, otherwise I can't read my ext2 DVDs (the only fs useful for proper backups). 3) DVD burning. I exchanged a lot of emails with Andy the last fortnight. Problems: setfacl $user /dev/dvdrecorder, and a mounted /media/dvdrecorder. Then $user cranks up growisofs, inserts a non-blank DVD, and the trouble starts. a) That disk is mounted, then overwritten by growisofs WHILE THE FILESYSTEM ON IT IS MOUNTED. Thanks in part to SUSE making sure that growisofs does *not* unmount subfs (bad idea(TM)). b) $user has rw access to /dev/dvdrecorder during burn. This is just begging for coasters. Some stracing shows that in a lot of place open(,O_EXCL) is used, but not everywhere. The whole situation sucks and needs fixing urgently. But it's better than 9.2 - stick in flash card, turn the monitor off for a minute or two, because it has about the same effect. Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is possibly list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me.

Marcel Hilzinger

10:11

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

Am Freitag, 27. Januar 2006 02:07 schrieb houghi:

...

Hello all,

During the IRC meeting from 2006-01-24 it was announced that subfs has been dropped. IRC log and minutes can be found at http://www.opensuse.org/2006-01-24-status-meeting and the timestap for the subfs issue begins at 19:47

...
From the minutes:

- subfs has been dropped and will be replaced by hal plus gnome-volume-manager (under GNOME) and some binary for KDE. non-KDE and non-GNOME users have to mount manually. They cant even put a line into /etc/fstab, so that a user can mount it. There was a consens that this is unacceptable. Action Item houghi: - start discussion about subfs replacement in non KDE/GNOME systems on opensuse-factory

Questions that arise: - Should this be accepted or should it be delayed till a complete solution is given? - As the question came from an FAQ about having subfs disables, is there perhaps a better solution for everybody. Easy disableling subfs for those who want it and enabled for those who want that. I think this is the most important question. Many (power)users are annoyed with the (non working, slow) solution in 10.0. Switching back to manual mount is in many cases the best solution for USB and Firewire disks.

3 suggestions: 1. Putting the decision (irreversible) in the installation workflow. Automatic mount shall be the default, but powerusers should be able to select manual mounting. 2. (my favorite): Internal media, floppy, CD/DVD shall be mountet automatically. The very first time you plug an external drive, the system asks, wheter you want to use this drive automatically or manually mounted. If you choose the latter, hal (or whatever) puts a corresponding fdi-file under /usr/share/hal/fdi/95userpolicy/, which disables the automatic mount of the device. If the file is deleted, the system uses automatic mount. 3. Create a variable AUTOMOUNT= in /etc/sysconfig/hardware/config (or wherever), which enables/disables automount for all devices. -- Üdvözlettel -- Mit freundlichen Grüssen, Marcel Hilzinger -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Marcel Hilzinger Linux New Media AG Süskindstr. 4 D-81929 München Tel: +49 (89) 99 34 11 0 Fax: +49 (89) 99 34 11 99

Johannes Kastl

30 Jan 30 Jan

17:03

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

On 01/27/2006 11:11 AM Marcel Hilzinger wrote:

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3. Create a variable AUTOMOUNT= in /etc/sysconfig/hardware/config (or wherever), which enables/disables automount for all devices.

Seconded. OJ -- The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they 've found it. (Terry Pratchett, Monstrous regiment)

Michael Galloway

27 Jan 27 Jan

14:01

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

my first questions is why drop subfs? i know its not perfect, but its adequate for the most part. it seems that the way this goes is that is assumes the desktop world revolves on kde, which perhaps is a bit of a mistake. -- michael On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 02:07:02AM +0100, houghi wrote:

...

Hello all,

During the IRC meeting from 2006-01-24 it was announced that subfs has been dropped. IRC log and minutes can be found at http://www.opensuse.org/2006-01-24-status-meeting and the timestap for the subfs issue begins at 19:47

From the minutes: - subfs has been dropped and will be replaced by hal plus gnome-volume-manager (under GNOME) and some binary for KDE. non-KDE and non-GNOME users have to mount manually. They cant even put a line into /etc/fstab, so that a user can mount it. There was a consens that this is unacceptable. Action Item houghi: - start discussion about subfs replacement in non KDE/GNOME systems on opensuse-factory

Andreas Jaeger

14:48

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

Michael Galloway writes:

...

my first questions is why drop subfs? i know its not perfect, but its adequate for the most part.

subfs was an additional kernel module that has not been accepted by the kernel team and caused us a number of problems and strange issues, e.g. df never reported the right thing. With hal support in the products, hal enables to do automatic mounting of media as well with helper support. Such helpers already exist for both KDE and GNOME.

...

it seems that the way this goes is that is assumes the desktop world revolves on kde, which perhaps is a bit of a mistake.

Nope around GNOME and KDE ;-)

...

-- michael

On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 02:07:02AM +0100, houghi wrote:

...
Hello all,

During the IRC meeting from 2006-01-24 it was announced that subfs has been dropped. IRC log and minutes can be found at http://www.opensuse.org/2006-01-24-status-meeting and the timestap for the subfs issue begins at 19:47

From the minutes: - subfs has been dropped and will be replaced by hal plus gnome-volume-manager (under GNOME) and some binary for KDE. non-KDE and non-GNOME users have to mount manually. They cant even put a line into /etc/fstab, so that a user can mount it. There was a consens that this is unacceptable. Action Item houghi: - start discussion about subfs replacement in non KDE/GNOME systems on opensuse-factory

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Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

houghi

15:12

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 03:48:59PM +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

...
it seems that the way this goes is that is assumes the desktop world revolves on kde, which perhaps is a bit of a mistake.

Nope around GNOME and KDE ;-)

I understand the smiley. Yet unfortunatly it is very serious. There are many people out there that do not use KDE or Gnome and yet like SUSE. One of the main drawbacks for SUSE was for me the unfriendly use of mounting devices. Now I just plug in my camera and get the pictures. I can get my data from the CD when I want it. There will be people who rather mount manually, so make that easier. As I see the real reason was the FAQ, so find a solution to that answer. Now the FAQ will be: How do I get automount working? It works on $DISTRO. In the end people are not really interested in wether it is subfs or something else. What people want is to plug or put in their devices, disk or whatever and read that data without a problem. So what can be done to get to that situation? houghi -- A dozen, a gross, and a score, Plus three times the square root of four, Divided by seven, Plus five times eleven, Equals nine squared plus zero, no more.

Andreas Vetter

15:23

New subject: OT: math

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, houghi wrote:

...

A dozen, a gross, and a score, Plus three times the square root of four, Divided by seven, Plus five times eleven, Equals nine squared plus zero, no more.

So score = 20 ? -- Andreas Vetter Tel: +49 (0)931 888-5890 Fakultaet fuer Physik und Astronomie Fax: +49 (0)931 888-5508 Universitaet Wuerzburg

houghi

16:22

New subject: [opensuse-factory] OT: math

On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 04:23:47PM +0100, Andreas Vetter wrote:

...

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, houghi wrote:

...
A dozen, a gross, and a score, Plus three times the square root of four, Divided by seven, Plus five times eleven, Equals nine squared plus zero, no more.

So score = 20 ?

LOL. This is the second time that people react to my sig. I myself hardly notice them and most of the time do not even read them. 'fortune' takes care of them. A search has revealed that a score is indeed 20. houghi -- "Thirty days hath Septober, April, June, and no wonder. all the rest have peanut butter except my father who wears red suspenders."

Andreas Schneider

17:29

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Michael Galloway writes:

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my first questions is why drop subfs? i know its not perfect, but its adequate for the most part.

subfs was an additional kernel module that has not been accepted by the kernel team and caused us a number of problems and strange issues, e.g. df never reported the right thing. With hal support in the products, hal enables to do automatic mounting of media as well with helper support. Such helpers already exist for both KDE and GNOME.

For those people loving thousands of popups popping up! A solution would be helper (using HAL) like subfs doing it automatically. Err, the only solution! :) -- andreas

...

...
it seems that the way this goes is that is assumes the desktop world revolves on kde, which perhaps is a bit of a mistake.

Nope around GNOME and KDE ;-)

...
-- michael

On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 02:07:02AM +0100, houghi wrote:

...
Hello all,

During the IRC meeting from 2006-01-24 it was announced that subfs has been dropped. IRC log and minutes can be found at http://www.opensuse.org/2006-01-24-status-meeting and the timestap for the subfs issue begins at 19:47

From the minutes: - subfs has been dropped and will be replaced by hal plus gnome-volume-manager (under GNOME) and some binary for KDE. non-KDE and non-GNOME users have to mount manually. They cant even put a line into /etc/fstab, so that a user can mount it. There was a consens that this is unacceptable. Action Item houghi: - start discussion about subfs replacement in non KDE/GNOME systems on opensuse-factory

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory-help@opensuse.org

Andreas

- -- http://www.cynapses.org/ - cybernetic synapses -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFD2lhtwDudlFFJUr4RAhyDAJ9P9957ZkW9EoXckHnc19P2d3xfZwCcC59W LcGsEEntoDKVy938xxnhH5M= =oK9i -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Juan Erbes

31 Jan 31 Jan

13:22

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

Can You tell me how will look fstab for the floppy and dvdrecorder? I could'nt mount as user now, the lines off fstab are: /dev/dvdrecorder /media/dvdrecorder users,fs=cdfss,procuid,nosuid,nodev,exec 0 0 /dev/fd0 /media/floppy users,fs=floppyfss,procuid,nodev,nosuid,sync 0 0 Thanks

Christian Boltz

27 Jan 27 Jan

23:12

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

Hello, Am Freitag, 27. Januar 2006 02:07 schrieb houghi:

...

- subfs has been dropped and will be replaced by hal plus gnome-volume-manager (under GNOME) and some binary for KDE. non-KDE and non-GNOME users have to mount manually.

I don't know what these highly-developed do exactly, but I guess there's a GUI and a (suid-root?) backend calling mount. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Is it difficult to create a shell script or a little console app called by HAL to do the automount? If not, create one - it will work on console and in all window managers. Problem solved. Hmmm... - that sounds _too_ simple, what did I miss? ;)

...

- As the question came from an FAQ about having subfs disables, is there perhaps a better solution for everybody. Easy disableling subfs for those who want it and enabled for those who want that.

Volker already suggested a /etc/sysconfig variable - sounds good for me and will finally solve this FAQ ;-) (maybe separate variables for CDs, floppies, USB harddisks, other USB devices might be even more useful, but that's the sugar icing ;-) I also agree that the *.fdi files are *NOT* user-friendly and would be happy to have a better solution. (/etc/fstab also holds mount options in a more user-friendly format. I know that's not exactly the same as the *.fdi do, but it should be possible to have a similar format.) Regards, Christian Boltz -- Es ist mir egal, ob alle Fulltime-Programmierer das toll finden. Ha! Bestimmt habt ihr selber schon kleine Siliziumkristelle im Kopf, die euch Befehle geben! Ihr wollt uns alle umbringen mit euren komischen Shortcuts! [Ratti in suse-linux]

Volker Kuhlmann

23:48

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

...

I don't know what these highly-developed do exactly, but I guess there's a GUI and a (suid-root?) backend calling mount.

Something like that is my understanding too. The program calling mount is hald-subfs-mount, and it's not tied to either KDE or gnome. I have not yet seen a reason why this has to be a C program, I reckon I can do it in bash and it's not too difficult.

...

Is it difficult to create a shell script or a little console app called by HAL to do the automount?

No, https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=141544 has the framework already.

...

Volker already suggested a /etc/sysconfig variable

Can't claim credit for that one. Disabling subfs just means that above script has to mount -t something instead of -t subfs. The actual fs type is supplied by hal in the environment to the script.

...

I also agree that the *.fdi files are *NOT* user-friendly and would be happy to have a better solution.

Me too. Stay with fstab thanks, and nobody needs to read more docs. Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is possibly list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me.

Stephan Kulow

28 Jan 28 Jan

09:11

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

On Saturday, 28. January 2006 00:48, Volker Kuhlmann wrote:

...

...
I don't know what these highly-developed do exactly, but I guess there's a GUI and a (suid-root?) backend calling mount.

Something like that is my understanding too. The program calling mount is hald-subfs-mount, and it's not tied to either KDE or gnome. I have not yet seen a reason why this has to be a C program, I reckon I can do it in bash and it's not too difficult. No-one said it has to be a C program. But as you need to understand I guess: subfs is dropped from the kernel. Which means no hald-subfs-mount anymore as it makes zero sense.

...

...
Is it difficult to create a shell script or a little console app called by HAL to do the automount?

No, it's not. But we won't put it in our distribution (at least in the default selection) because it would mean that all file systems will always be mounted by root. You don't want that usually - especially with file systems allowing only one user to write to it (say vfat as used by many USB sticks these days). With subfs the kernel triggered the actual file system mounting as the user id that accessed the device. You won't be able to do that with some HAL triggered automatism. Never - but you won't be able to do something like that with the functionality the linux kernel provides either. And as subfs will never be upstream, it was decided to drop it. As to our current solution without subfs. This is how you configure it in KDE (beta3 will have it complete): http://ktown.kde.org/~coolo/snapshot1.png . And finally you will have a visual feedback why pressing on the eject button does not do anything for you: http://ktown.kde.org/~coolo/snapshot2.png . GNOME works pretty similiar. So my theory is: you won't miss subfs under GNOME and KDE - you will even love the new option to mount sync or async as it fits your taste. So that leaves the automount problem to users not running either. And as I said: without any icewm-volume-manager there is little chance that icewm users will have the same experience. They will need to do something manually (sometimes you pay the price of "lightweight"[1]). They have several options though: - edit fstab and add whatever options they like for their labeled devices so they can "mount /media/stick" - sudo mount -o machsmirrichtigflott /dev/sdb1 /media/stick - use HAL (someone is working on a shell script to basically wrap this call: dbus-send --system --print-reply --dest=org.freedesktop.Hal /org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/volume_uuid_ECC4_B0F1 org.freedesktop.Hal.Device.Volume.Mount string: string: array:string: ), but I couldn't find it with google. But again: the kernel or the hot plug system won't automatically mount, so you need to put that fact into consideration if you decide that KDE offers too much functionality to you and that you rather go leightweight. Greetings, Stephan [1] http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/1664

Robert Schiele

10:29

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

On Sat, Jan 28, 2006 at 10:11:10AM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

With subfs the kernel triggered the actual file system mounting as the user id that accessed the device. You won't be able to do that with some HAL triggered automatism. Never - but you won't be able to do something like that with the functionality the linux kernel provides either. And as subfs will never be upstream, it was decided to drop it.

Thanks for explaining the reason why it was dropped. Such an expanation is what I would expect in the first place when a decission of a change is announced because I consider it quite annoying if decissions to change something are announced without the reasons that lead to that decission. Robert -- Robert Schiele Tel.: +49-621-181-2214 Dipl.-Wirtsch.informatiker mailto:rschiele@uni-mannheim.de "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."

houghi

12:09

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

On Sat, Jan 28, 2006 at 10:11:10AM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

But again: the kernel or the hot plug system won't automatically mount, so you need to put that fact into consideration if you decide that KDE offers too much functionality to you and that you rather go leightweight.

So to sum it up, if you want automount, you need to run Gnome or KDE. Otherwise we send you back to the stone age. So what if one user uses KDE and another uses WindowMaker? Or if the same user runs `startx kde -- :1` while normaly running WindowMaker? Will there be conflicts? Anybody knows how other distributions solved this? houghi -- According to my best recollection, I don't remember. -- Vincent "Jimmy Blue Eyes" Alo

Stephan Kulow

18:07

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

On Saturday, 28. January 2006 13:09, houghi wrote:

...

Anybody knows how other distributions solved this?

Just found this: http://ivman.sourceforge.net/ - this seems to be ubuntu's solution. Should be easy to patch to use HAL's mount functions instead of pmount and can be used by WindowMaker users. Greetings, Stephan

houghi

18:43

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

On Sat, Jan 28, 2006 at 07:07:37PM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

On Saturday, 28. January 2006 13:09, houghi wrote:

...
Anybody knows how other distributions solved this?

Just found this: http://ivman.sourceforge.net/ - this seems to be ubuntu's solution. Should be easy to patch to use HAL's mount functions instead of pmount and can be used by WindowMaker users.

This should be usable with everything, including KDE, Gnome, CLI and any other thing. houghi -- HE: Let's end it all, bequeathin' our brains to science. SHE: What?!? Science got enough trouble with their ___OWN brains. -- Walt Kelley

Stephan Kulow

20:04

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

On Saturday, 28. January 2006 19:43, houghi wrote:

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On Sat, Jan 28, 2006 at 07:07:37PM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...
On Saturday, 28. January 2006 13:09, houghi wrote:

...
Anybody knows how other distributions solved this?

Just found this: http://ivman.sourceforge.net/ - this seems to be ubuntu's solution. Should be easy to patch to use HAL's mount functions instead of pmount and can be used by WindowMaker users.

This should be usable with everything, including KDE, Gnome, CLI and any other thing. Just too bad it conflicts with the solutions of KDE and Gnome and it again has no option to mount as the user running KDE.

Greetings, Stephan

Ulrich Windl

30 Jan 30 Jan

07:59

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

On 28 Jan 2006 at 13:09, houghi wrote:

...

On Sat, Jan 28, 2006 at 10:11:10AM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...
But again: the kernel or the hot plug system won't automatically mount, so you need to put that fact into consideration if you decide that KDE offers too much functionality to you and that you rather go leightweight.

So to sum it up, if you want automount, you need to run Gnome or KDE. Otherwise we send you back to the stone age.

If you turn on your digital camera, will it automatically make a photograph? If not, is it stone-age then? I doubt it. Ulrich

houghi

14:23

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

On Mon, Jan 30, 2006 at 08:59:13AM +0100, Ulrich Windl wrote:

...

On 28 Jan 2006 at 13:09, houghi wrote:

...
On Sat, Jan 28, 2006 at 10:11:10AM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...
But again: the kernel or the hot plug system won't automatically mount, so you need to put that fact into consideration if you decide that KDE offers too much functionality to you and that you rather go leightweight.

So to sum it up, if you want automount, you need to run Gnome or KDE. Otherwise we send you back to the stone age.

If you turn on your digital camera, will it automatically make a photograph? If not, is it stone-age then? I doubt it.

OK. Back to the stoneage might not be the correct wording. However it is a serious step back. Automaunting should be avaiable for all and should be able to be turned off by those who want it. houghi -- Republicans consume three-fourths of the rutabaga produced in this country. The remainder is thrown out.

Marcel Hilzinger

09:12

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

Am Samstag, 28. Januar 2006 10:11 schrieb Stephan Kulow: [..]

...

As to our current solution without subfs. This is how you configure it in KDE (beta3 will have it complete): http://ktown.kde.org/~coolo/snapshot1.png . And finally you will have a visual feedback why pressing on the eject button does not do anything for you: http://ktown.kde.org/~coolo/snapshot2.png . GNOME works pretty similiar. So my theory is: you won't miss subfs under GNOME and KDE - you will even love the new option to mount sync or async as it fits your taste. If this solution works properly, then I think most of the users will be satisfied. Powerusers (using alternative desktop environments) know how to mount devices manually, so this seems a good! solution for me, almost as I suggested with my solution 2.

For the popups I would like to have them smaller an in the system tray aerea. It's less disturbing this way, I think. Also the default popup when plugging an external device is too big for me. A small popup near the system tray -- as SuSEwatcher used to use it -- would be nicer. -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Marcel Hilzinger Linux New Media AG Süskindstr. 4 D-81929 München Tel: +49 (89) 99 34 11 0 Fax: +49 (89) 99 34 11 99

houghi

14:28

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

On Mon, Jan 30, 2006 at 10:12:12AM +0100, Marcel Hilzinger wrote:

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If this solution works properly, then I think most of the users will be satisfied. Powerusers (using alternative desktop environments) know how to mount devices manually, so this seems a good! solution for me, almost as I suggested with my solution 2.

Powerusers will also be able to turn it off. e.g. I am not a poweruser, yet most of the time I use WindowMaker and sometimes also CLI. There are even times when I run KDE, although they are not very common. Automounting should be a feature of the OS, not of the GUI. houghi -- Documentation is like sex: when it is good, it is very, very good; and when it is bad, it is better than nothing. -- Dick Brandon

Stephan Kulow

14:36

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

Am Montag, 30. Januar 2006 15:28 schrieb houghi:

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Automounting should be a feature of the OS, not of the GUI. Well, the GUI is part of the OS in our eyes.

Greetings, Stephan

Marcus Meissner

14:38

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

On Mon, Jan 30, 2006 at 03:36:18PM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Am Montag, 30. Januar 2006 15:28 schrieb houghi:

...
Automounting should be a feature of the OS, not of the GUI. Well, the GUI is part of the OS in our eyes.

Actually I do not like the loss of automounting either. We need to have at least a tool that allows easy mount/umounting again. Ciao, Marcus

Michael Galloway

14:41

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

On Mon, Jan 30, 2006 at 03:36:18PM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Am Montag, 30. Januar 2006 15:28 schrieb houghi:

...
Automounting should be a feature of the OS, not of the GUI. Well, the GUI is part of the OS in our eyes.

sorry, but that just sounds very much like something the evil empire would say. one of the things that makes linux work for me is that the gui is not the os, i can have any form of gui i like, and the os keeps on working. makes me wonder what direction novell is going. -- michael (a committed suse user since 1997)

Stephan Kulow

14:54

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

Am Montag, 30. Januar 2006 15:41 schrieb Michael Galloway:

...

one of the things that makes linux work for me is that the gui is not the os, i can have any form of gui i like, and the os keeps on working. makes me wonder what direction novell is going.

The os keeps on working - it just doesn't automount. We introduced subfs for KDE users and removed it again as it's no longer needed and causes a lot of problems. We had autofs since about forever and you're free to configure it to your liking. But our default is GNOME/KDE and both don't need it - and as you move away from the default, you loose convenience. But it's your choice. Greetings, Stephan

houghi

15:09

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

On Mon, Jan 30, 2006 at 03:54:17PM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Am Montag, 30. Januar 2006 15:41 schrieb Michael Galloway:

...
one of the things that makes linux work for me is that the gui is not the os, i can have any form of gui i like, and the os keeps on working. makes me wonder what direction novell is going.

The os keeps on working - it just doesn't automount. We introduced subfs for KDE users and removed it again as it's no longer needed and causes a lot of problems. We had autofs since about forever and you're free to configure it to your liking. But our default is GNOME/KDE and both don't need it - and as you move away from the default, you loose convenience. But it's your choice.

So what am I getting here? There won't be a solution for non-KDE/Gnome users? Either you use Gnome/KDE and get automount, or you are on your own (concerning automount). Is this correct, or am I wrong? I am just trying to sumerize. houghi -- Drive defensively. Buy a tank.

David Wright

17:04

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

Am Montag, 30. Januar 2006 16:09 schrieb houghi:

...

On Mon, Jan 30, 2006 at 03:54:17PM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...
Am Montag, 30. Januar 2006 15:41 schrieb Michael Galloway:

...
one of the things that makes linux work for me is that the gui is not the os, i can have any form of gui i like, and the os keeps on working. makes me wonder what direction novell is going.

The os keeps on working - it just doesn't automount. We introduced subfs for KDE users and removed it again as it's no longer needed and causes a lot of problems. We had autofs since about forever and you're free to configure it to your liking. But our default is GNOME/KDE and both don't need it - and as you move away from the default, you loose convenience. But it's your choice.

So what am I getting here? There won't be a solution for non-KDE/Gnome users? Either you use Gnome/KDE and get automount, or you are on your own (concerning automount). Is this correct, or am I wrong?

I am just trying to sumerize.

houghi

Sounds more like it is set up automatically for KDE and Gnome and if you don't want to use those, then you can manually set up autofs. (do a google on "linux autofs") But I must say I agree with your earlier comment that the GUI is not the OS. The GUI is, or should be, a graphical shell that sits on top of the OS and makes it easier to use. Moving from one GUI to another should be like replacing bash with cshell or whatever, it changes the way the user interacts with the OS, but not the way the OS itself works. You could class it as an operating environment - i.e. there are a number of applications that are written for the libraries of a GUI and if the GUI, or at least its key libraries, is not installed those applications will fail, but the core OS remains the same. Even Microsoft said that when NT was released, that the Windows graphical shell would just be one of many graphical shells that would be available for the NT OS... Over time they lost direction and we ended up with the monstrosity that is Windows XP/2003 today and Vista tomorrow... One of the reasons I like Linux is that it hasn't fallen into that trap, yet. The GUI is just a set of libraries and programs that sit on the OS and make the user experience better...

Ulrich Windl

31 Jan 31 Jan

07:13

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

On 30 Jan 2006 at 18:04, David Wright wrote: [...]

...

Even Microsoft said that when NT was released, that the Windows graphical shell would just be one of many graphical shells that would be available for the NT OS... Over time they lost direction and we ended up with the monstrosity that is Windows XP/2003 today and Vista tomorrow... One of the reasons I like Linux is that it hasn't fallen into that trap, yet. The GUI is just a set of libraries and programs that sit on the OS and make the user experience better...

However Windows is rediscovering the command line, Server 2003 can even write a panic message through a serial port. So maybe they've learned the Linux lession. For server environments command line and text mode user interface are essential. Our servers all don't have keyboard nor monitor, not to talk about a mouse. When up they are accessed via SSH or application-level protocols, and when they are down they are accessed via serial management processor/console. Thus any pop-up would pop into nowhere. Regards, Ulrich

houghi

30 Jan 30 Jan

14:54

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

On Mon, Jan 30, 2006 at 03:36:18PM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Am Montag, 30. Januar 2006 15:28 schrieb houghi:

...
Automounting should be a feature of the OS, not of the GUI. Well, the GUI is part of the OS in our eyes.

I hope that is a personal and not a corporate statement. houghi -- Sorry. I forget what I was going to say.

Frank-Michael Fischer

18:21

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Well, the GUI is part of the OS in our eyes.

Greetings, Stephan

Ok, just to clarify the new terminology: Novell/SUSE is going to market at least two different operating systems then: NSGL (Gnome/Linux) and NSKL (KDE/Linux)? With the common feature of "automount"? With some common components like the kernel? And some server linux with bash as GUI? Is there somewhere a document describing the way how the tail Novell/SUSE intends to wag the dog Linux? FMF

Silviu Marin-Caea

19:28

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

On Monday 30 January 2006 20:21, Frank-Michael Fischer wrote:

...

Stephan Kulow wrote:

...
Well, the GUI is part of the OS in our eyes.

Greetings, Stephan

...

Ok, just to clarify the new terminology: Novell/SUSE is going to market at least two different operating systems then: NSGL (Gnome/Linux) and NSKL (KDE/Linux)? With the common feature of "automount"? With some common components like the kernel? And some server linux with bash as GUI? Is there somewhere a document describing the way how the tail Novell/SUSE intends to wag the dog Linux?

I don't think that it's really the case here to get semantic and split this hair. Do you read the list through a sniper scope? Should every owner of a @suse.de address bring a mine detector when using this list? For some, the GUI is the OS, the rest know that it is not so, but it's not something to spend too many messages on, it's not productive.

houghi

19:54

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

On Mon, Jan 30, 2006 at 09:28:30PM +0200, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

...

For some, the GUI is the OS, the rest know that it is not so, but it's not something to spend too many messages on, it's not productive.

If it blocks a solution to the problem at hand, it is importand. As I read it, it could mean that besides KDE/Gnome nobody gets automount. If this is because the opnion is that the GUI is an OS, it is very relevant. To me it explains WHY decisions are taken and others are not even thought of. I was wondering why SUSE was not interested in other things next to Gnome/KDE and now I know. Again I hope it was just the opnion of an individual and not the point of vieuw of SUSE or Novell and will tread it as such. houghi -- What this country needs is a dime that will buy a good five-cent bagel.

Ulrich Windl

31 Jan 31 Jan

07:23

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

Hi, I think it's not relevant whether the GUI is considered part of the OS (just like the C compiler) or not, but the question is whether it's a sine-qua-non part of the OS (i.e. the OS would not work any more if that part is missing). Users should still be able to take advantage of most OS features even when they use a text-mode interface. It would be desirable to be able to mount/unmount (pre-selected) media as non-root user. Regards, Ulrich On 30 Jan 2006 at 21:28, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

...

On Monday 30 January 2006 20:21, Frank-Michael Fischer wrote:

...
Stephan Kulow wrote:

...
Well, the GUI is part of the OS in our eyes.

Greetings, Stephan

...
Ok, just to clarify the new terminology: Novell/SUSE is going to market at least two different operating systems then: NSGL (Gnome/Linux) and NSKL (KDE/Linux)? With the common feature of "automount"? With some common components like the kernel? And some server linux with bash as GUI? Is there somewhere a document describing the way how the tail Novell/SUSE intends to wag the dog Linux?

I don't think that it's really the case here to get semantic and split this hair.

Do you read the list through a sniper scope?

Should every owner of a @suse.de address bring a mine detector when using this list?

For some, the GUI is the OS, the rest know that it is not so, but it's not something to spend too many messages on, it's not productive.

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Christian Boltz

30 Jan 30 Jan

21:20

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

Hello, Am Samstag, 28. Januar 2006 10:11 schrieb Stephan Kulow:

...

This is how you configure it in KDE (beta3 will have it complete): http://ktown.kde.org/~coolo/snapshot1.png .

Looks interesting and quite good, especially the possibility to set several mount options. Will this dialog be available for every user or only for root? (If "every user": is there a check done so that nobody can mount to /usr or /bin? ;-) However, a solution for non-KDE/Gnome is still missing :-( Regards, Christian Boltz -- Aber genauso können mir ja auch die Grünen leid tuen. Da bin ich doch lieber blau ... [Konrad Neitzel in suse-linux]

houghi

7 Feb 7 Feb

12:17

New subject: [opensuse-factory] subfs dropped in 10.1 Beta 2

On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 02:07:02AM +0100, houghi wrote:

...

Hello all,

During the IRC meeting from 2006-01-24 it was announced that subfs has been dropped. IRC log and minutes can be found at http://www.opensuse.org/2006-01-24-status-meeting and the timestap for the subfs issue begins at 19:47

Just to sumerize for the meeting later today: The general idea was that automounting should be available for everybody. As it looks now automounting will only be available for KDE and Gnome users. All other users will need to configure this themselves. Question 1 that will come up is: will this be the final situation or are there people working on solutions? Question 2 that will pop up is: what is the best way for non-KDE and Gnome users to enable automount? houghi -- Boling's postulate: If you're feeling good, don't worry. You'll get over it.

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17 participants

participants (17)

Andreas Jaeger
Andreas Schneider
Andreas Vetter
Christian Boltz
David Wright
Frank-Michael Fischer
houghi
Johannes Kastl
Juan Erbes
Marcel Hilzinger
Marcus Meissner
Michael Galloway
Robert Schiele
Silviu Marin-Caea
Stephan Kulow
Ulrich Windl
Volker Kuhlmann