Hey, This is just what I did, and upgrade process didn't update a lot of packages (i.e. KDE is stuck at 4.6.5), because "zypper update" doesn't change vendor back from openSUSE-Tumbleweed to "normal" openSUSE. Do we need to use "zypper dup"? If so, this can be problematic in case we have (like I do) other Tumbleweed repositories selectedi.e. (Packman, Subpixel, ...), etc... Kind regards, Eduard Huguet 2011/11/17 Greg KH :

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 12:20:59AM +0100, Juergen Orschiedt wrote:

...

which - in fact means (at least for my installation):

...

2 Pakete werden aktualisiert, 203 werden zurück gestuft, 8 neue, 5 erneut zu installieren, 4 zu entfernen, 210 Herstellerwechsel . Gesamtgröße des Downloads: 327,9 MiB. Nach der Operation werden zusätzlich 540,3 MiB belegt.

That means I'm back on 11.4 w/o Tumbleweed... Not really the behaviour I expected when switching to Tumbleweed...

It should be, Tumbleweed is the "latest" stable openSUSE packages. Right now, that means it is based on 12.1, so upgrade to that, and all is good.

If you would have set your repos to just point to openSUSE-current, then all would have worked seamlessly, which is why that is the recommended way of doing this.

thanks,

greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

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On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 07:53:59AM +0000, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

On 17 November 2011 07:43, Eduard Huguet wrote:

...

Hey, This is just what I did, and upgrade process didn't update a lot of packages (i.e. KDE is stuck at 4.6.5), because "zypper update" doesn't change vendor back from openSUSE-Tumbleweed to "normal" openSUSE. Do we need to use "zypper dup"?

If so, this can be problematic in case we have (like I do) other Tumbleweed repositories selectedi.e.  (Packman, Subpixel, ...), etc...

Why? Put "Packman Tumbleweed" with the highest priority, "openSUSE 12.1" with the lowest priority and "Tumbleweed" in between. Do a zypper dup and when available ZYpp will select the packages from Packman, even if they are the ones with the lowest version-release, otherwise from Tumbleweed and when not available elsewhere from openSUSE 12.1. Put all of them with the same priority and the packages with the highest version-release will be installed. It is clear and deterministic ;-)

Never use priorities with Tumbleweed, I've always said that, unless you feel you know better than I do, in which case, hey, good luck :) greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le jeudi 17 novembre 2011, à 08:43 +0100, Eduard Huguet a écrit :

Hey, This is just what I did, and upgrade process didn't update a lot of packages (i.e. KDE is stuck at 4.6.5), because "zypper update" doesn't change vendor back from openSUSE-Tumbleweed to "normal" openSUSE. Do we need to use "zypper dup"?

If so, this can be problematic in case we have (like I do) other Tumbleweed repositories selectedi.e. (Packman, Subpixel, ...), etc...

Please read the documentation at http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Tumbleweed This part might be of interest: """ The only supported method of repo use for Tumbleweed is to have only the main repos (Oss, Non-oss, and Update) and the Tumbleweed repo active. For that situation a simple zypper dup will update your packages, and if any packages are ever reverted from Tumbleweed zypper dup will also handle that. Despite it being unsupported, if you do choose to have other repos enabled, this command is safer: zypper dup --from Tumbleweed """ Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz wrote:

Le jeudi 17 novembre 2011, à 08:43 +0100, Eduard Huguet a écrit :

...

Hey, This is just what I did, and upgrade process didn't update a lot of packages (i.e. KDE is stuck at 4.6.5), because "zypper update" doesn't change vendor back from openSUSE-Tumbleweed to "normal" openSUSE. Do we need to use "zypper dup"?

If so, this can be problematic in case we have (like I do) other Tumbleweed repositories selectedi.e. (Packman, Subpixel, ...), etc...

Please read the documentation at http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Tumbleweed

This part might be of interest:

""" The only supported method of repo use for Tumbleweed is to have only the main repos (Oss, Non-oss, and Update) and the Tumbleweed repo active. For that situation a simple

zypper dup

will update your packages, and if any packages are ever reverted from Tumbleweed zypper dup will also handle that.

Despite it being unsupported, if you do choose to have other repos enabled, this command is safer:

zypper dup --from Tumbleweed """

Vincent

There is lots of good info in this thread that is not in that page. It would be great if someone would consolidate this thread into it. Fyi: greg kh treated the 11.3 => 11.4 transition similar to this one, but I don't recall the concept of a "current" opensuse repo before. Using it is not yet on the portal page. In my case, I disabled tumbleweed a few weeks ago and upgraded to 12.1-rc1, then -rc2, and now gm. Now i just need to re-enable tumbleweed. It seems like a fairly reasonable method, so it might be good to document (on the portal) that as a methodology to consider. Greg -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday, November 17, 2011 07:11:36 Greg KH wrote:

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 08:35:53AM -0500, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

There is lots of good info in this thread that is not in that page.

It would be great if someone would consolidate this thread into it.

I agree, please, someone do that.

'someone' should be gregF, I'd say, he thought of it :D

...

Fyi: greg kh treated the 11.3 => 11.4 transition similar to this one, but I don't recall the concept of a "current" opensuse repo before. Using it is not yet on the portal page.

It's on one of the pages in the wiki somewhere, I can't remember where it is, Jos helped write it.

it is referenced in the wiki and the announcement. Have no network here but if memory serves it is something like en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tumbleweed_12.1change

...

In my case, I disabled tumbleweed a few weeks ago and upgraded to 12.1-rc1, then -rc2, and now gm. Now i just need to re-enable tumbleweed. It seems like a fairly reasonable method, so it might be good to document (on the portal) that as a methodology to consider.

Please feel free to do this.

+1

thanks,

greg k-h

Hi, Well, here probably lies the problem: Tumbleweed right now works in an "hybrid" mode (a base version + updated versions in TL) that IMHO doesn't work well on main version upgrades. I think that (ideally) TL users should be able to completely detach from main openSUSE versions and rely solely on TL repos, but I guess this would require a lot more work. It would require a complete "fork" from the main repos, so they could be maintained independently. Kind regards, Eduard Huguet 2011/11/17 Juergen Orschiedt :

Am Donnerstag, den 17.11.2011, 08:43 +0100 schrieb Eduard Huguet:

...

Hey, This is just what I did, and upgrade process didn't update a lot of packages (i.e. KDE is stuck at 4.6.5), because "zypper update" doesn't change vendor back from openSUSE-Tumbleweed to "normal" openSUSE. Do we need to use "zypper dup"?

If so, this can be problematic in case we have (like I do) other Tumbleweed repositories selectedi.e.  (Packman, Subpixel, ...), etc...

It always was suggested to use "zypper dup" if you have Tumbleweed in your repo list.

And - yes - it will be problematic, 'cause some of the other directories still don't have 12.1 - they have "Factory" - but you never know which one - "Factory for 12.1" or "Factory Bleeding Edge".

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On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 08:43:47AM +0100, Eduard Huguet wrote:

Hey, This is just what I did, and upgrade process didn't update a lot of packages (i.e. KDE is stuck at 4.6.5), because "zypper update" doesn't change vendor back from openSUSE-Tumbleweed to "normal" openSUSE. Do we need to use "zypper dup"?

Yes, you always need to use 'zypper dup' when using Tumbleweed and updating to a new distro.

If so, this can be problematic in case we have (like I do) other Tumbleweed repositories selectedi.e. (Packman, Subpixel, ...), etc...

It shouldn't have, those should now be updated as well. thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Juergen, everyone has the right to his system of thoughts... but a lot of them are simple wishful thinking and rubbish. iirc tumbleweed (troubleweed as is known in some quarters) supposes to offer next stable versions of the distro packages... simple logic says that yesterday morning 12.1 contained the most stable updates for opensuse and at some moment 12.1 and tumbleweed had packages build from the same sources... what was the trouble? the new branding? today... if someone had the time... you may find in tumbleweed the next stable version of solitaire. and you will be again different from the ones with an outdated version in 12.1 Alin -- Without Questions there are no Answers! ______________________________________________________________________ Alin Marin ELENA Advanced Molecular Simulation Research Laboratory School of Physics, University College Dublin ---- Ardionsamblú Móilíneach Saotharlann Taighde Scoil na Fisice, An Coláiste Ollscoile, Baile Átha Cliath ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://alin.elenaworld.net ______________________________________________________________________ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 17 November 2011 10:18, Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:

The problem is that the way this was handled - i.e., no transition period - effectively forces an immediate whole major version upgrade on all Tumbleweed-11.4 users. That plain out sucks.

I would say there are not "Tumbleweed-11.4 users", there are "Tumbleweed users". The fact that it is supposed to be used with openSUSE-current should make it clear. Perhaps instead of the "Tumbleweed repo" one should use a "Tumbleweed service" (http://duncan.mac-vicar.com/2008/09/18/introducing-zypp-services/) to have it as a single entity. But in practice with openSUSE-current you already have the same, the difference is just philosophical. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2011-11-17T12:42:42, Alin Marin Elena wrote:

...

effectively forces an immediate whole major version upgrade who is forcing you? always you can exercise your right of not updating... but of course crying is easier.

Could you kindly refrain from personal insults? Thank you. My point was (is); suddenly, one can no longer zypper dup - which means that Tumbleweed on 11.4 users wouldn't even get security updates any more easily that would be released for 11.4 itself (which is still maintained for a while). From a release management perspective, this was poorly handled. And there was no urgent reason for doing so. Tumbleweed could have stayed how it was, frozen, no more updates to it. That the "old" Tumbleweed remained around would not have had an impact on work on a Tumbleweed for 12.1. I have no problem with updating to 12.1 - but I'd have preferred if I could have had more freedom in choosing a time that works for my schedule. Regards, Lars -- Architect Storage/HA SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2011-11-17T14:03:41, Eduard Huguet wrote:

Why should be an "old TL" for 11.4 and a "new" one for 12.1? This is just contrary to what a rolling distro is: it should be only one TL repo, completely detached from main OpenSUSE version.

For a true rolling distribution, you'd be right. However, Greg appears to want to use Tumbleweed as a "selective factory backports to the last official release", which I have no problem with. (Even if it's not a rolling distribution stream.) But even for that use case, my criticism of the release management would stand. Regards, Lars -- Architect Storage/HA SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 02:03:19PM +0100, Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:

On 2011-11-17T14:03:41, Eduard Huguet wrote:

...

Why should be an "old TL" for 11.4 and a "new" one for 12.1? This is just contrary to what a rolling distro is: it should be only one TL repo, completely detached from main OpenSUSE version.

For a true rolling distribution, you'd be right.

However, Greg appears to want to use Tumbleweed as a "selective factory backports to the last official release", which I have no problem with.

Um, no, Tumbleweed has ALWAYS been stated as a rolling distro, with only 1 repo. Zillions of time people asked what would happen when 12.1 came out, and I stated "The Tumbleweed repo would be deleted and started over when 12.1 came out." Now I understand your frustration that things changed out from under your system, but really, was I supposed to wait for each and every individual user to move off of 11.4 before moving Tumbleweed to 12.1? It would always be "inconvient" for someone. So I did what I always said I would do, if anything, I've been totally consistent here. And as others pointed out, just disabling the repo, or, not doing a 'zypper dup', would work just fine for now until you wish to move to 12.1.

(Even if it's not a rolling distribution stream.) But even for that use case, my criticism of the release management would stand.

The "release management" of Tumbleweed matches that of openSUSE-current, i.e. it will move when the new release comes out. Sorry you were caught by suprise, what should I have done differently to make this easier next time that does not involve multiple repos? thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 04:27:39PM +0100, Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:

On 2011-11-17T07:08:57, Greg KH wrote:

...

So I did what I always said I would do, if anything, I've been totally consistent here.

Well, perhaps the notion was so outlandish to me that I didn't expect your words meant what you intended them to mean ;-)

No comment :)

...

Sorry you were caught by suprise, what should I have done differently to make this easier next time that does not involve multiple repos?

I think "multiple repos" is actually the right and only answer here, leaving them in the state they were in. Just consider the need to downgrade, reinstall, or clone a system; wiping out a repo like that just doesn't seem to be perfect. Or merely trying to see what the last TW version was.

I understand that you feel this is the "correct" way to do this, unfortunately, it's not what I feel is the "correct" way, and given that almost no one else is helping out with Tumbleweed[1], well, that's the way things have worked out. sorry, greg k-h [1] With one major exception, thanks Jiri Slaby for all the help with Tumbleweed, I really appreciate it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 04:46:45PM +0100, Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:

On 2011-11-17T07:45:03, Greg KH wrote:

...

I understand that you feel this is the "correct" way to do this, unfortunately, it's not what I feel is the "correct" way, and given that almost no one else is helping out with Tumbleweed[1], well, that's the way things have worked out.

I know how they've worked out, and that's not likely to be revertable.

But I'm thinking about how to handle it going forward; what did you think about the two specific suggestions?

Um, sorry, I forgot what those two specific suggestions were, care to refresh my memory, this has been a long email thread :) Note, I could create openSUSE:Tumbleweed:11.4 right now, and repopulate it with the 11.4 packages I previously had, and then just leave it alone, would that be acceptable? Moving forward, I don't have anytime to maintain the 11.4 repo, and don't want to mess up my scripts to have to handle multiple lists of packages and repos any more than I currently have, although in thinking about it, it wouldn't be all that hard, but I would not be doing _ANY_ QA or testing or support for it, it really would just be a frozen snapshot.

And - what kind of help would you need?

Someone to maintain it, keep it up to date, test it, fix problems when they come up, and answer emails and forum posts from users who are having issues. If someone wants to do that, I'll gladly assign them to the 11.4 repo and they can go to town. It's not trivial, but it's not a full-time job either. thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2011-11-17T15:16:25, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Disable the tumbleweed repo and continue using zypper up?

Another way, yes. My basic point about "How not to do release management" stands. Regards, Lars -- Architect Storage/HA SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2011-11-17T16:23:38, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

...

Disable the tumbleweed repo and continue using zypper up? Another way, yes.

My basic point about "How not to do release management" stands.

You failed to offer alternative ways IMO.

"Leave the old repo in place for a few weeks" wouldn't have been so hard, would it? -- Architect Storage/HA SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Donnerstag 17 November 2011 00:34:17 Greg KH wrote:

It should be, Tumbleweed is the "latest" stable openSUSE packages. Right now, that means it is based on 12.1, so upgrade to that, and all is good.

So why does the main 12.1 repo not simply feed the TW repo?

If you would have set your repos to just point to openSUSE-current, then all would have worked seamlessly, which is why that is the recommended way of doing this.

No, it is not. If it was the recommended way, the way would be recommended at http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Tumbleweed A way is not recommended when you simply come up with it and then tell nobody about it. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Tumbleweed is the place to tell people about it and when there is a openSUSE-current repo (franky, I've never heard of it), then its tutorial should also add the openSUSE-current repo. Markus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Greg KH wrote:

There is a place on the wiki that does describe this and how to update easily, sorry, I don't have web access at the moment to dig it out, but I know it is there as Jos had me proof-read it a few weeks ago.

http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Change_from_12.1_to_Tumbleweed Greg, that page was created less than a month ago. And more importantly, it was not announced in any way shape or form that I can find via google. Nor does the main tumbleweed portal page have a link to it. The newly birthed page says that openSUSE_current repo was created specifically to ease the 11.4 => 12.1 transition (as well as future transitions). That is really nice and I'm happy it was done, but an announcement here on factory where Tumbleweed is supported seems like the minimum that could have been done to get the word out that there was a new recommended repo management strategy for Tumbleweed. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday, November 17, 2011 10:55:54 Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Greg KH wrote:

...

There is a place on the wiki that does describe this and how to update easily, sorry, I don't have web access at the moment to dig it out, but I know it is there as Jos had me proof-read it a few weeks ago.

http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Change_from_12.1_to_Tumbleweed

Greg, that page was created less than a month ago.

And more importantly, it was not announced in any way shape or form that I can find via google.

It was in the tumbleweed section of the announcement http://news.opensuse.org/2011/11/16/opensuse-12-1-all-green/ It is also in the product guidelines.

Nor does the main tumbleweed portal page have a link to it.

Good point, please add it.

The newly birthed page says that openSUSE_current repo was created specifically to ease the 11.4 => 12.1 transition (as well as future transitions).

Yep.

That is really nice and I'm happy it was done, but an announcement here on factory where Tumbleweed is supported seems like the minimum that could have been done to get the word out that there was a new recommended repo management strategy for Tumbleweed.

True, that would have made a lot of sense. Looks like neither Greg KH nor me thought of that. Sorry for that. Luckily it won't happen again :D

Greg